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ChangeLog: HP clarifies warranty under Linux
By Joe Barr
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March 30, 2007 (8:00:00 AM)
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We received the following today by email from Hewlett Packard, which clarifies their warranty policy for customers running Linux on HP hardware, at least in the specific case we reported on recently.
Per the HP spokesperson:
HP is committed to supporting its customers and backs its PCs with a solid hardware warranty regardless of the operating system.If a customer alters a product and a problem develops as a result of that change, then the problem (which is not a result of a defect in workmanship) would not be covered under the warranty. In the case at hand, if the problem was the physical keys on the notebook beginning to stick, the operating system change would not have been the culprit and, therefore, would be covered under the customer’s warranty.
We are also taking steps to ensure support agents are clear on this policy so this issue does not recur.
All of which sounds a lot more reasonable to Linux users.
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on ChangeLog: HP clarifies warranty under LinuxNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
Re:Now let's hope they stop shipping a half gig
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 31, 2007 07:05 AM
Compaq/HP/Dell.
I have worked for 2 different companies (each employed about 4000 people) that disqualified all three companies as vendors because MS software would not install on their hardware from OEM distribution media.
In essence, their hardware is "non-standard", incompatible, proprietary, lock-in,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... crap.
In both cases, these employers engaged the local build-to-order business to build to their own specs with readily available off-the-shelf parts. After the remaining Compaq/HP/Dell equipment was retired, support costs went down.
It's much easier dealing with the local build-to-order businesses too.
I have worked for 2 different companies (each employed about 4000 people) that disqualified all three companies as vendors because MS software would not install on their hardware from OEM distribution media.
In essence, their hardware is "non-standard", incompatible, proprietary, lock-in,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... crap.
In both cases, these employers engaged the local build-to-order business to build to their own specs with readily available off-the-shelf parts. After the remaining Compaq/HP/Dell equipment was retired, support costs went down.
It's much easier dealing with the local build-to-order businesses too.
Re:Now let's hope they stop shipping a half gig
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 02, 2007 07:50 PM
Then you, sir, are incompetent. Windows OEM installs by default on hp gear that supports windows.
If you have a specific part number or two, by all means post it. Otherwise your troll-fu is weak.
If you have a specific part number or two, by all means post it. Otherwise your troll-fu is weak.
Re:Now let's hope they stop shipping a half gig
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 02, 2007 10:05 PM
Oh please. It's COMMON KNOWLEDGE that Windows only supports a VERY SMALL subset of hardware without requiring manufacturer drivers. Now there is a difference between "everything works" and "installs" too. Generally, you can install windows on most common hardware, but frequently you won't have working network, sound, etc., and video will be limited to plain VGA.
As far as installing, anything with a SATA or RAID card usually needs drivers to install Windows. For example, NONE of the HP rack servers will install without additional drivers. To solve this, HP has "smartstart" CD's for their servers that pre-install the drivers and whatnot to allow easy installations of Windows. And what does HP use to make smartstart work? Linux. Why? Because out of the box, Linux supports damn near all core hardware, unlike Windows.
As far as installing, anything with a SATA or RAID card usually needs drivers to install Windows. For example, NONE of the HP rack servers will install without additional drivers. To solve this, HP has "smartstart" CD's for their servers that pre-install the drivers and whatnot to allow easy installations of Windows. And what does HP use to make smartstart work? Linux. Why? Because out of the box, Linux supports damn near all core hardware, unlike Windows.
That's because Windows is only released very periodically - every few to every several years.
Furthermore, they rely on other companies to make the drivers and there are companies like HP that produce half gig printer drivers. Including ALL the drivers with Windows would take plenty of disks and would be out of date fast.
Linux vendors often put out a new one every year or two.
Let's also remember that Windows is usually intened to be deployed by OEMs, while Linux is usually deployed with the intention of a user installing it!
Notice how many Linux distribution reviews (rather pointlessly) still go over the installation. Even though it's all the same now, everyone is so used to it and it's such an issue that the bulk of Linux distribution reviews put in a large (sometimes a 1/3!) chunk of it into the install process!
Add to that, installing drivers in Linux can be a bitch and hardware vendor supplied drivers often involve getting the compiler toolchain and kernel source and building them.
So while with Windows this is a process of putting in the disk and running the installer - a process that is ~usually~ done by the OEM - with Linux it is imperitive that everything work out of the box and all the drivers be included and it be easy to install.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...There's nothing special about Linux here, it's just that due to circumstances, the Linux vendors and Microsoft don't take the same approach.
You could argue that because of Microsoft's approach, it's usually (though not always) a snap for non-technical users to install 3rd party drivers.
While everyone has their horror stories, I have seen plenty of completely nontechnical users install hardware and associated drivers trouble free in Windows.
I've been using Linux and Unix (Slack,Redhat,Ubuntu,BSD,SGI IRIX, etc.) for 8 years and in the (rare!) cases where I have to install a 3rd party driver, it is usually not trivial at all and when there's an issue it usually takes some technical understand of how the system actually works. The CLI ends up being used nearly every time and the basics of compiling does come up.
That's trivial to us but even some really "newbie" Linux users don't appreciate how much more they know than the typical person!
Furthermore, they rely on other companies to make the drivers and there are companies like HP that produce half gig printer drivers. Including ALL the drivers with Windows would take plenty of disks and would be out of date fast.
Linux vendors often put out a new one every year or two.
Let's also remember that Windows is usually intened to be deployed by OEMs, while Linux is usually deployed with the intention of a user installing it!
Notice how many Linux distribution reviews (rather pointlessly) still go over the installation. Even though it's all the same now, everyone is so used to it and it's such an issue that the bulk of Linux distribution reviews put in a large (sometimes a 1/3!) chunk of it into the install process!
Add to that, installing drivers in Linux can be a bitch and hardware vendor supplied drivers often involve getting the compiler toolchain and kernel source and building them.
So while with Windows this is a process of putting in the disk and running the installer - a process that is ~usually~ done by the OEM - with Linux it is imperitive that everything work out of the box and all the drivers be included and it be easy to install.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...There's nothing special about Linux here, it's just that due to circumstances, the Linux vendors and Microsoft don't take the same approach.
You could argue that because of Microsoft's approach, it's usually (though not always) a snap for non-technical users to install 3rd party drivers.
While everyone has their horror stories, I have seen plenty of completely nontechnical users install hardware and associated drivers trouble free in Windows.
I've been using Linux and Unix (Slack,Redhat,Ubuntu,BSD,SGI IRIX, etc.) for 8 years and in the (rare!) cases where I have to install a 3rd party driver, it is usually not trivial at all and when there's an issue it usually takes some technical understand of how the system actually works. The CLI ends up being used nearly every time and the basics of compiling does come up.
That's trivial to us but even some really "newbie" Linux users don't appreciate how much more they know than the typical person!
You do have a point. And there's another side.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 10, 2007 04:25 AM
You are correct about the compiler toolchain. That's how I ended up installing my Matrox Millenium G400 accelerator driver (the kernel driver, not the X11 driver). I am a techie (8 years with GNU/Linux, similar to you, though I originally came from a Windows background), so it wasn't too tough for me. Man pages do make sense to me.
However, years ago, that wasn't the case; my little MCSE-self back then didn't have all the ability that I now possess. UNIX man pages have a reputation for terseness because they very often are! That's when there are man pages at all to read (there usually are, but for some 3rd-party drivers, there's just a README). The README files can be terse, too. For example, in the case of my Millenium G400 driver, the need to modprobe or insmod after the installation wasn't discussed in the README. Fortunately, I knew to insmod or modprobe from my years of doing this. Again, as a techie who does like to tinker, I can deal with that. My parents might have had some difficulty with that, though.
That said....
Once the GNU/Linux system is up and running--and the installation, as you've pointed out, is not at all difficult--then it Just Plain Works. Even if sometimes we do have to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>./configure && make && make install, you typically don't have rootkits stealthily auto-installing themselves (e. g. Sony), you don't have portscanning HP drivers, you don't have your computer "phoning home" like MS Windows does, you don't have a vendor automatically assuming you're a criminal and disabling major parts of your OS, and you don't generally end up getting your system hosed through viruses/worms/malware. And that's why I let my MCSE go by the wayside.
GNU/Linux also is very easy to deal with at the OEM level (I use kickstart, which I find rather easy). Since GNU/Linux is not closed down like Microsoft's Windows is, OEM's by definition have *much* more flexibility with the former than the latter<a href="mailto:lker@cmosnetworks.com" title="mailto">.</a mailto>
However, years ago, that wasn't the case; my little MCSE-self back then didn't have all the ability that I now possess. UNIX man pages have a reputation for terseness because they very often are! That's when there are man pages at all to read (there usually are, but for some 3rd-party drivers, there's just a README). The README files can be terse, too. For example, in the case of my Millenium G400 driver, the need to modprobe or insmod after the installation wasn't discussed in the README. Fortunately, I knew to insmod or modprobe from my years of doing this. Again, as a techie who does like to tinker, I can deal with that. My parents might have had some difficulty with that, though.
That said....
Once the GNU/Linux system is up and running--and the installation, as you've pointed out, is not at all difficult--then it Just Plain Works. Even if sometimes we do have to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>./configure && make && make install, you typically don't have rootkits stealthily auto-installing themselves (e. g. Sony), you don't have portscanning HP drivers, you don't have your computer "phoning home" like MS Windows does, you don't have a vendor automatically assuming you're a criminal and disabling major parts of your OS, and you don't generally end up getting your system hosed through viruses/worms/malware. And that's why I let my MCSE go by the wayside.
GNU/Linux also is very easy to deal with at the OEM level (I use kickstart, which I find rather easy). Since GNU/Linux is not closed down like Microsoft's Windows is, OEM's by definition have *much* more flexibility with the former than the latter<a href="mailto:lker@cmosnetworks.com" title="mailto">.</a mailto>
This is what can happen when you have actual independent journalism (read: not Ziff-Davis, Forbes, ABC/Disney, etc.). The company learns that it can't get away with BS without people loudly bad-talking HP, so said company actually fixes at least that specific case.
Let's hope that HP makes good on its spokesperson's word and makes sure that its support people don't give *other* people hardware warranty grief just for replacing MS Windows with something else.
I still will steer clear of them for a couple of years, though. Let's see how they do first.
Let's hope that HP makes good on its spokesperson's word and makes sure that its support people don't give *other* people hardware warranty grief just for replacing MS Windows with something else.
I still will steer clear of them for a couple of years, though. Let's see how they do first.
Now let's hope they stop shipping a half gig
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 31, 2007 05:19 AMNot to mention heavily customized non-standard PCs. I had to reinstall Windows 98 on a client's HP PC that had been running Windows 98. A vanilla Windows 98 wouldn't even install.
HP is getting a rep with me on a par with Dell - as garbage.
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