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What this country needs is a good $999 Linux laptop

By on September 27, 2002 (8:00:00 AM)

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- By Robin "Roblimo" Miller -
In 1917 U.S. Vice President Thomas R. Marshall famously said, "What this country needs is a good five-cent cigar." Nobody remembers Marshall for anything besides this humorous comment. Maybe nobody will remember me for saying anything besides, "What this country needs is a good $999 Linux laptop," but if we get good $999 Linux laptops that'll be legacy enough for me.

("This country" can be any country, of course. I happen to live in one north of Mexico and south of Canada where many millions of laptop computers are sold every year, almost every single one of them with a proprietary operating system preloaded, so I will concentrate this rant on my country's laptop problem, and you can chime in below with notes about yours.)

Desktop computers are on their way out

Look around you. Almost everyone you know who can afford a laptop computer has one, and those who don't have laptops already are saving to buy them. It's not just your friends, either. Worldwide desktop computer sales are flat or dropping, but laptop sales are rising. Laptops are slowly replacing desktops for home and office computer users who don't need huge screens, massive processing power or specialized add-in cards.

Wireless home and small office networks are becoming a big deal because of increased laptop use, not because people are wheeling cumbersome desktop computers on carts into their yards when they feel like working outdoors. My wife and I may be an extreme case, but our "home office" is now nothing but a printer, cable modem and wireless access point in a cabinet under our living room TV. We work all over the house and yard, depending on mood. We can even print through our wireless network, but we rarely print these days; we are not yet paperless but rapidly moving in that direction. I do not know if we represent some sort of ideal work-at-home future, but we are certainly far from alone in our work/home lifestyle.

Now think about a person who works in an office most of the time but needs to take work home. It is simply more convenient to carry a laptop that has all the necessary local files and software on it back and forth than it is to use almost any of the software that allows a home computer to connect to a remote business network through the Internet -- especially if the home computer is likely to be a laptop anyway.

Now let's talk money

Feature for feature, laptops cost more than desktops. You can now buy a desktop computer with pre-installed Linux for about $400 (WalMart.com low-end PC with Mandrake or a Lindows one for $299 plus a $99 Click-N-Run subscription to get the same software included with Mandrake). Add a $119 monitor and you're in business. You've spent a little over $500, plus shipping charges for some hefty boxes.

The lowest cost (Microtel) laptop computer from WalMart.com costs $1,089. I often see laptops at major retailers for $999 or less. I have whined before about how Dell and other major laptop vendors missed the Linux boat by only offering their most expensive laptops with Linux as an option, so I will not repeat that train of thought here.

Linux users are often cheap -- or, to put it more kindly, "working with limited budgets." Some love software freedom above everything else, but I suspect even more are drawn to Linux by the idea of getting most of their software beer-free or at flea market prices. I've noticed this same level of cost-consciousness in Linux users when it comes to hardware purchases, too. I know hardly any Linux users who buy premade, top-of-the-line desktop boxes, and most of the laptops I see my Linux friends buying are mid-range or low-end units.

I doubt that a Linux laptop that runs much more than $1,200 is going to sell a noticeable number of units. And "under $1,000" seems to be the magic laptop price point now, so $999 (or less) is the tag you want to see on the Linux laptop at the end of the aisle in your local computer chain store.

Waiting for a hungry -- but smart -- computer vendor

The computer hardware marketplace is rough right now. Prices and sales are down, and 90% of the units on sale look much like the other 90%. Only Apple makes anything notably different from what the rest of the horde is pushing, and Apple seems to be hurting less from the current IT recession than almost any other end-user hardware manufacturer.

Sooner or later, management at a consumer-level computer company other than Dell or HPQ is going to be forced to think up a marketing strategy that is truly different from the one used by that pair of giants, both of whom yell "Linux" loudly and often on the commercial server level, but barely whisper the word when it comes to desktops and laptops. And that company's management will hook up with Red Hat or Mandrake or one of the other commercial "power brands" in Linux desktop operating systems, and will make a big deal out of "end-to-end Linux support" for both corporate and home use.

Naturally, this is going to be a desperation move as Dell and HPQ fight to kill all competition in the consumer computer marketplace, including each other, but does this matter? As Mongo Babyheart says, "We should not question the motives of those who do Good, but praise them for doing it."

When will this happen?

Got me. My crystal ball is a little cloudy today. But I think it's near certain that it will happen sooner or later. I don't know if the company that decides to abandon the Wintel path in favor of Linux will make a go of it, either, but if they were going to get squeezed out by Dell and HPQ anyway, they'll be no worse off if they fail than if they don't try.

And maybe, if this comes to pass, some of us will get our hands on some nice $999 laptops that come with Linux pre-installed.

Wouldn't that be nice!

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on What this country needs is a good $999 Linux laptop

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We have such an offer in Germany

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 07:52 PM
Here in good-old Germany "MediaMarkt", which is one of the leading computer- and electronics-shop of the country, offers a laptop completely with Suse Linux for EUR 999,- which roughly equals USD 999,-


(If you are willing to spend some EUR 112,- more you can get the same Laptop with a closed-source OS produced somewhere in and around Redmond, USA...)


Here is the URL (it's in German, of course):

<A HREF="http://shop.mediamarkt.de/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=11051&catalogId=5000&langId=-3&storeId=5000&categoryId=10001">Laptop with Suse Linux</a mediamarkt.de>

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Re:We have such an offer in Germany

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 08:51 PM

And here is why its not selling by the tons apart from there non existent marketing

"SIS 650 shared Memory,"

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Re:We have such an offer in Germany

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 09:05 PM
Are there disadvantages other than the reduction of memory for applications? I am thinking of buying one of those and would buy additional RAM anyway.

Does anyone know how much this thing would cost with 512MB?

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Re:We have such an offer in Germany

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 30, 2002 05:59 AM
well, horrible 3d-performance, at least using this chipset. if that's not an issue for you, it might be a nice comp.

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Re:We have such an offer in Germany

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 12:51 AM
Mmm...
Anyone know of an offer this good in the UK?

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Just ask yourself the question...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 08:03 PM
How many good 5 cent cigars do you see these days?

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Re:Just ask yourself the question...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 08:22 PM
I'll answer that with another question, are those days the same as these days?

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What's wrong with PII laptops?

Posted by: Gary Lawrence Murphy on September 27, 2002 08:34 PM
After using Linux laptops for nearly 6 years, I have to say that the minimally useful hardware is the PII/300<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but that platform is still pretty common for trade-in laptops and should come in at half your $999 cost.

Perhaps, like the recycled desktop/server market, there's opportunity for people to locally refurbish laptops with Linux and resell them.

The important thing is not to go too low or you just give out the wrong message. We installed Peanut Linux on my daughter's P1/133, but it's only marginally functional, not really enough to inspire using the thing, and that gives Linux a bad reputation. If I was forced to say something positive about Win95, it's that, on very limited hardware, it works no worse than it does on a big machine, whereas KDE/Gnome, even Enlightenment are not for the light of RAM or the light of HD space; before the flames happen, face it, you have to be a geek to want to use icewm or fvwm.

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Re:What's wrong with PII laptops?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 11:15 PM
Oh come on, do you really want to compare the look of GNOME/KDE with windows95?
You really can't since they are more complex than the window95 graphical shell, you really should compare those to windowsXP and then you try to run WinXP on a P133 and see how frustrating that would be.
Why not try to run Blackbox (or any other lightweight WM which you don't have to be a "geek" in order to run, by the way what's wrong with being a geek?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
Sure I like my things quite minimalistic and therefor blackbox is great for me as a WM on a workstation, besides it's really really simple too, otherwise CLI is the prefered way to go still to this day in my eyes.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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Exactly!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 12:28 AM
In fact, I just purchased a refurbished PentiumII Thinkpad for around $700 (Canadian, no less). Works great, and I've even got it dual-booting Linux & Windows.

If you're in Ontario, Canada (or any other part of canada) you might want to check out www.cdicomputers.com, they have some really good deals on refurbished laptops.

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Re:What's wrong with PII laptops?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 02:29 AM
Yeah. Everyone else uses twm.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D

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Re:What's wrong with PI laptops?

Posted by: Tom Buskey on September 28, 2002 11:45 AM
It depends on what you're doing. Web surfing, email, news, word processing, light spreadsheets? I had a P150 w/ 80MB. I used Netscape 4.x, exmh, pan, abiword, staroffice (slowly), and gnumeric. Ximian gnome on Mandrake 7.

When it died, I got a celeron 1GHz with 256MB. Mandrake 8.2, Mozilla or Galeon, Ximian, and now I can run VMware.

I looked at used laptops, but this new one was $1050 last fall. I wanted to run VMware and saving $300 by going to a used laptop wasn't worth the performance hit.

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Interesting

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 08:48 PM

but 999$ is not the problem , the problem is many things.

1) Most Linux distribution are bad at oem deal
2) Most Linux Distribution dont have OEM team or they are not doing a very good job at it
3) Financial backing 999$ is a very high price when you can get a Dell for 42$ per month<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
4) Marketing there is probably a lot more Linux installed notebook but they are mostly hidden

Lets see the Windows Team

HP , IBM , MEdion , Alienware , etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

VS

The linux team :

http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Hardwar<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> /Systems/Linux/

http://www.emperorlinux.com/

http://www.qlitech.net/

one that is not even listed<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

http://www.storever.com/

So if you whant to make a comparaison with the car industry do you whant a Linux kit car that will pobably work and you have to pay 999$ or you whant a porsche like the apple powerbook or a dell 8200 that you have everything ready to use and known to be working with financial and service backing them up<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

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Re:Interesting

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 10:27 PM
This was kind of the point of the essay: a company should back Linux on the laptop.

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Re:Interesting

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 04:37 PM
Is that so? Well do you know about the new Linux/Sun co-op with IBM? I think you are gonan see a lot of changes in the prices of desktops/laptops preloaded with linux. And even with Alien-Ware, you can select to have no OS installed thats 300 less. Just download some SlackWare and you got a beast. ^_^ Slackware is your god.

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Virtual Private Networks

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 09:10 PM
One piece of software that would help people migrate to linux would be a simple to use GUI VPN client.

I've been using the command line one from cisco for the cisco VPN server. It works ok, but It really should have a GUI like the windows version does.

One more thing a cheap laptop in linux will need is 3D DRI support. I'm not talking high-end Geforce4-Go, but something with at least 16M of video ram that can do hardware openGL.
I personally wouldn't buy a laptop with cheap video that only does 3d in windows.

I've been seeing more and more people playing games on their laptops. Just something else to consider I guess.

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Re:Virtual Private Networks

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 01, 2002 02:06 AM
I don't want to sound trite -- that's already here. Try SWAN. It works great less filling.....

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Re:Virtual Private Networks

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 01, 2002 01:23 PM
do you have a URL ?

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the naked truth about laptops

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 10:39 PM
most laptops, dell, gateway, compaq, hp, etc., not ibm oddly enough, are made by a few ODM's in taiwan. don't believe me, go to compal.com, asus.com, and a few others i can't remember. so, go to www.powernotebooks.com. also try ebay, i think the seller ID is internetishop. they sell os less laptops. the matched spec for spec with an inspiron, they are almost identical. they sell great laptops for around a grand. in fact, powernotebook.com's website makes the point about not selling windows pre-installed. check it out.

p.s. roblimo, do your homework

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Re:the naked truth about laptops

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 08:53 AM
p.s. roblimo, do your homework


Are you joking? You're <A HREF="http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/09/15/1437228&mode=thread&tid=15">supposed to do the homework for him</a newsforge.com>.

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Problem is...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 11:18 PM
The problem with laptop price vs. computer price, is that you can't really upgrade them. You throw them away. So all thats available, is crappy old laptops, and high prices (see ebay). What would be great would be if there was a standard for laptops, like PCS now. You take off the keyboard, and there you have your modem, hard drive, floppy, processor, memory, and so on. All changeable, just like PCS. Develop a standard, like ATX. No one wants to do this, because they'll lose money on the user when their machine is obsolete-BUT if they do that, AND sell the hardware upgrades, I think there would be a good market here. Especially if you're first to make the upgrades, then you'd have your name 'grandfathered' in. (see sony)

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Re:Problem is...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 12:24 AM
Actually most laptops are upgradable, I have added memory to mine (less that 2 minutes and asingle screw) upgraded the harddrive (5 screws).

Most laptop vendors will tell you how you have to buy "thier" RAM to upgrade, go to <A HREF="http://www.crucial.com/">Crucial</a crucial.com> and save your self a pile of cash (Dell charges about double for the same memory).

True we are not to the point where vidoe can be upgraded, but we are moving there, now that video card makers are honing in on the laptop market, and to drive prices down, laptop builders are getting modular, which is easier, putting a onboard 3rd party graphics chip on a propriatray mootherboard, or having a module that plugs in via a standard socket.

Network and modem card have been interchangable for years (PCMCIA), yes internals are cheaper, but these are not "user" removable (geeks have no problem removing some as many are just a "module" of some sort).

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Re:Problem is...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 12:47 AM

video card are upgreadable too most of the new laptop have agp port now why do you think the same computer as three different graphic car<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

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Ridiculous article

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 27, 2002 11:43 PM
Laptops are limited in many ways:

overheating, battery issues, price, un-upgradeable, expensive replacement componets, linux support problems, etc.

They will never prevail over desktops that have an edge in:

gaming (video cards), price, easy to upgrade, easy-to-replace componets; pretty much endless possibilities.

The author of the article must be living under a rock somewhere.

-Scott

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Re:Ridiculous article

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 04:44 AM
"Laptops are limited in many ways:"

used to be limited in many ways<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"overheating,"

When its badly built<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...


  "battery issues,"

Just dont carry only one<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

" price,"

Price is cheaper this days<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

" un-upgradeable,"

Again this as changed in the past year<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

" expensive replacement componets,"

There is more competition in the parts department<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... more player<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

" linux support problems, etc."

Linux just need to stop beeing a parasite on the windows machine and start to have some built for it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"gaming (video cards), "

- ATI Mobility Radeon 9000
http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=16<nobr>9<wbr></nobr> 2

- NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1642

"price"

they are gowing down<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"easy to upgrade"

Dont buy a no upgrade brand name same as for desktop<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"easy-to-replace componets"

More player will join when people start buying<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

"pretty much endless possibilities."

You havent seen the Laptop and notebook I have seen<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

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Re:Ridiculous article

Posted by: DCallaghan on September 28, 2002 05:51 AM
Or perhaps he's noticed how many corporations buy laptops for sales reps and everyone above the level of project manager. You may have noticed that laptops are a pretty popular item. Unless, of course, you're living under a rock.

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Re:Ridiculous article

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 09:32 AM
hey buttwipe - were you aware that laptop batteries last longer running Linux than they do running windoze totally due to the fact that windoze's power management sucks? just thought you'd like to know

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Re:Ridiculous article

Posted by: Tom Buskey on September 28, 2002 11:57 AM
Sure they're limited. So are desktops:

Can't bring them living room -> bathroom -> porch -> bedroom (I read in bed)

When the power goes out, you're done. I have a big UPS builtin! I keep my laptop plugged in, but I can unplug when I move around.

Can't bring it on a trip. I use a digital camera. It's nice to got on a family outing & drain & review all the pictures in the hotel at the end of the day.

Email when you're on the road. Web surfing too. Directions, weather, etc are nice on the road.

Easy to store. I can fold it up & put it in the corner when guests come over.

Expensive replacements? Hard to replace too. Hard drives are easy. I replaced an LCD once. You have a point, but if my TV's tube dies, I replace the TV and get a newer one with better sound and a bigger screen......

Linux support problems??? Ok, my winmodem doesn't work. My PCMCIA modem from my last laptop works great! So does my SCSI card. And WiFi card. Sound is great! Everything works just as well as under Windows XP.

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"refurbished" market

Posted by: hcmeyer on September 27, 2002 11:46 PM
Check the OEM's like Dell and IBM for "refurbished" laptops, throw away the WinMoronEdition recovery disk, and put a linux on it. Ibm, in particular, is a good source, with 3-4 year old ThinkPads, recycled from IBM sales reps. The URL is too complex to paste, but a quick look shows a T20(41U) with a 700 mHz pentium 3, 128 meg ram, 12 GB disk, DVD rom, a 56k modem (probably an mwave) for $927. And IBM will fall over itself helping you install linux on it (no, they won't pre-install it for you).
Dell's "refurbished" systems are mostly customer returns, or canceled orders. A quick look shows half a dozen Inspiron 2600's between $854 and $953. Somebody out northwest (I forgot who) was selling refurbished HP laptops with lycoris or lindows pre-installed.

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Re:"refurbished" market

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 11:05 AM
it was lycoris<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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Re:"refurbished" market

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 12:02 PM
I looked at these when my P150 toshiba died. I ended up getting a Toshiba Satellite Celeron 1GHz for $1050 last fall. 256MB (up top 512MB), 20GB, DVD, 1024x768x65k. Mandrake 8.0 -> 8.2 installs flawlessly. Sound works. A PCMCIA modem replaces the winmodem (check ebay for ~$50). builtin ethernet.

Flaw: microphone in is mono, not stereo.

#

Wrong

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 12:35 AM
What all countries need is a $999 UltraSparc IIIi workstation (monitor not included).

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wrong

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 01:03 AM
What this country needs is a decent set of synaptics/touchpad drivers. One that has a nice gui interface that allows edge scrolling and assign buttons and disables taps and has palm checks all with a GUI FRONTEND!! tpconfig doesn't do crud cept disable tapping. We should be able to enable/disable on the fly! Windows can do all this for years now! But yet again we end users need to comprise using good hardware because we want to be free and open. Doing a man GPM doesn't get you anywhere.

rubish

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I see a VA$haftware-M$ Destroy Linux ad

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 01:55 AM
... and I don't like it.. post alerts like this one on sight of these disgusting, abusive advertisements from VA $haftware, hypocritical owner of the OSDN, and micro$Haft, the company intent on DESTROYING Linux, its community, development and users - and this has been on its mind as far back as 1998, with the leaked "Halloween report"..

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Re:I see a VA$haftware-M$ Destroy Linux ad

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 02:47 AM
<A HREF="http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-07-22&res=l">Stop making yourself look stupid</a penny-arcade.com>

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we're cheap, eh?

Posted by: Chris on September 28, 2002 01:57 AM
Your comment about most linux users being "cheap" or on a limited budget isn't very accurate. Most people I know who use Linux use it because it does what they need it to do and generally does it better than the other mainstream offerings. Personally, the fact that it costs me nothing (other than the time it takes to download and the $0.10 CD-R to burn the Mini ISO install disc, since I use Debian) is just a bonus.

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Re:we're cheap, eh?

Posted by: Joseph Cooper on September 28, 2002 02:56 AM
I use Linux because I can't afford Microsoft's
developement software or Photoshop.
Gimp and EGCS work very well and the price
is well within my budget. Photosop is too
expensive for me.

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Re:we're cheap, eh?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 30, 2002 05:47 AM
yeah, i'm with you on this. i can afford pretty much whatever i want (within reason - think upper middle class...) i use linux because I LIKE IT BETTER than windows - both it's freedom and power.

i also think the philosophical freedom aspects are of importance.

but it has gotten to the point where a savvy user CAN use it simply because in most respects it's just better. very few of the inconveniences that used to plague one using it years ago are left, and its maturing VERY quickly.

#

I might get a laptop

Posted by: Joseph Cooper on September 28, 2002 01:59 AM
When I can build it myself.

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Discount Laptops

Posted by: Doug Loss on September 28, 2002 03:04 AM
How about <A HREF="http://www.discountlaptops.com/index.php?section=catagory&include_type=sager">this</a discountlaptops.com>. You can get a Sager 2280 for as low as $905, with no OS installed.

#

ibook = $1199

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 03:53 AM
yes its alittle bit more expensive than $999 but it makes a powerful linux laptop. You can even get some models for $850 on ebay 600mhz versions. Fast small durable smart laptops.

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avoid ibooks below 600mhz

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 08:00 AM
and check the specs of the 600 mhz versions as well. afaik, the 700mhz versions have not been shipped with anything less than 128mb ram and a 16mb radeon (7xxx) mobility.
ibooks exist in several variants, the multicoloured 300/366/400/466 versions and the snow-white 500+ ones. among the snow models, all 500 mhz versions are equipped with a ati rage mobility (8mb vidram and most likely 64mb internal ram). dont even think about enjoying warcraft3 (lovely hybrid release, but unplayable on this setup) or any highres movies on it. i even wiped osx and tried both mplayer and xine under yellowdog (nice distro) - i prefer xine's frameskipping, but the fact that i need to mention this feature should explain the amount of available horsepower...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:|

#

Laptops are OK...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 07:29 AM
But I have five desktop systems, and I have no desire to replace any of them. I'd like a laptop (in fact, one would be very useful in my line of work), but desktop systems have a certain quality of user experience that laptops cannot match (yet).

#

Why not an iBook

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 11:36 AM
Starting at US$1199, a very capable UNIX OS, great GUI for the non-tech, availability of _real_ MS Office if needed, plays games, and works really well with Windows, Mac and *nix environments -- plus really great style!?

(This is not a troll, but a generally serious comment from an admitted Mac user and lover who finds his iBook invaluable on a day-to-day basis working with hundreds of PC's and thousands of Sun and Linux boxes.)

http://www.apple.com/ibook/

(Oh, and if you want, you can load it with Linux as the OS, or dual-boot it with OSX and Linux

#

This is a day late but ...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 28, 2002 11:49 PM
A sales rep from a company who sells desknotes (ibuddies) for $675 told me people call about Linux and say "Can you put Linux on it?"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the company says yes and then the person says, "OK, but I'll get it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but please put XP on it."<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. worse<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... those that are buying it with Linux call within a few weeks asking how to remove it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Not a good trend !!

shrug

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Re:This is a day late but ...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 03, 2002 04:20 AM
Well, since we're swapping anecdotes, I once emailed an ibuddie retailer asking if they knew whether all the hardware was supported in Linux. And, I added, BSD would be cool too. All I really wanted was to run GNOME. So I get a reply by some sales rep saying they aren't allowed to sell computers with just DOS because they have to ship with an operating system.

And the moral of the story is: Don't look to ibuddie sales reps to predict trends in operating systems.

#

Desktops not going away soon.

Posted by: kirkjobsluder on September 29, 2002 01:57 AM
I spent last week working on a laptop while the primary computer was in the shop and I was underwhelmed. The laptop keyboard was literally painful to use and got worse when moved away from the desk. (And yeah you could add an external keyboard but where do you put it?) It was underpowered and a major pain to get any real work done on it. Allthough most people in my deparment have laptops they are rarely used as primary work computers. Certianly the world needs a $1000 linux laptop but not because the desktop is going away in the near future.

#

Re:Desktops not going away soon.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 07:10 AM
Are you using a vendor kernel? It sounds like you're building your own. Try using one of Red Hat's kernels. If you own Red Hat, and that doesn't work, file a bug report. They are _very_ responsive.

#

Why bother?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 03:10 AM
I've been using Linux since 1991 - primarily as an admin - and even then mostly for integrating networks, serving files, and providing sound IP infrastructure. On my 2 desktop machines, I run XP and RedHat. On my notebook, I run XP. Why? Because I don't have to rebuild the kernel or associated modules everytime I insert a new class of PCMCIA card. The whole linux-wlan (802.11b) thing is especially annoying. Not saying that it doesn't work or that it works poorly. On the contrary, I've seen linux-wlan work great on some friends' notebooks. But why is it still expected that I have to recompile the kernel when introducing new hardware to my Linux system? Yes - I understand the kernel architecture and I know that certain modules can be dynamically linked while others must (should) be statically linked. I guess I'm just surprised that 12 years later, Linux (even the exalted Lycoris) can't support new categories of hardware without kernel recompiles. (On a side note, it would be nice to see GNU/Hurd make its way into standard Linux distros, but I digress...) Anyway, I think you get my point. Show me a Linux that doesn't need recompilation when introduced to new categories of hardware and I'll show you a Linux that is ready for notebooks.

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Re:Why bother?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 07:13 AM
As an addition, I've found that people running Linux for a long time sometimes forget that newer versions have easier ways of doing things. For example, I've heard stories of people setting up PPP by hand on Linux, because they didn't realize that Red Hat 7.x came with a dialer. They didn't know it was so easy!

The newer Linux people know this, but us old-timers sometimes forget.

Compiling kernels is mostly a thing of the past these days, unless you're a developer or a SysAdmin with a lot of guts. Vendors do an excellent job patching the kernel - I'd run a vendor kernel over a Linus kernel any day. Anyway, just my 2c.

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i'll tell you why

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 12:06 PM
because when a driver makes it into the kernel tree, it is usually IMHO stable. when hardware is configured on linux, and it can sometimes be a pain, it works. period. macintosh be damned.

i know how hard it is to configure the whole linux-wlan thing. (i spent several hours getting my laptop to work) if mandrake or rh would just include the prism2 module and the wireless utils (iwconfig, etc), then a simple perl/tk or python/tk interface is all that's needed.

when wireless pcmcia becomes more prevalent than you'll see distros pick it up. by the way, i configured a wireless usb for my wife win98 box. (i'm working on her, don't worry) it took several reboots, AND i had to reconfigure wep, tcp/ip AND i had to disable her NIC from the hardware menu. now, from my years admin'ing all our crappy windoze boxes at my school, i knew what to do. you think your average windows user is gonna know that? <sarcasm>btw, nice documentation linksys</sarcasm>

yes it is harder on linux. UNTIL it becomes integrated into the kernel tree. for example: usb zip drives. i bought one. plugged it into my desktop, and viola it just worked. why? usbcore auto loaded, usb-storage auto loaded, and viola, cd<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/mnt/zip.

i tried the same thing on my friends XP box. yes, XP. had to install a driver disk, it didn't work, reboot, anywyas, after a while, a trip to the iomega site, anywyas you get the picture. no i didn't make a convert because he has a bootleg copy of office2k and that's what he thinks "free" software is.

lastly, windoze biggest problem with crashing has been hardware. is m$ to blame. hell yes. they write the crappy driver api. and since they can't see the source, they only can write based on what m$ gives them.

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Re:Why bother?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 02, 2002 03:24 AM
You guys really are kidding - who the has the time to wait around for drivers to be merged into the kernel tree? Either I build it myself or look elsewhere - I chose to look elsewhere. My laptop will continue to run XP w/cygwin - does what I need and works with all the hardware that I need to use. As for wireless not being mainstream - all I can say is that you must live in a remote part of Antarctica if you think that WiFi is not mainstream technology. I have 5 different PCMCIA cards here - Orinoco Gold, Silver, Cisco Aironet, SMC, Linksys - they all work perfectly w/XP - of course. On RedHat, they all choke - of course. Maybe 8.0 fixes this. Who knows? Point is that that by running Linux on my notebook would limit my hardware options in the future - and that just won't happen. Bring on the HURD and maybe I'll change my mind. In the meantime, it would be cool if Redhat made their own custom notebooks - like the Mac stuff - supporting a limited array of hardware. I bet people would eat it up.

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It's not about linux (IMHO)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 11:29 AM
This issue is not *really* about lijnux - it's about the fact that there is no standardization in laptop hardware. Unless/until this happens, laptop prices won't drop much (or not nearly as much as they could with standardized parts).

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actually...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 29, 2002 12:59 PM
there has been standardization. majority of laptops run SIS hardware. most laptops are made in taiwan by ODM's. dell, gateway, hp/compaq, etc., all the big and small, etc. yes windoze adds a chunk to the price. dell sells "dell", etc. but, there is a price below which things cannot physically be sold.

what is happening in desktops, is beginning to happen in laptops. the prices are holding. (yes i know about the $200 boxen at walmart.com, but you're talking way bottom hardware, although an 800mhz duron is still WAY MORE than enough horsepower to surf the net and check mail) don't expect prices to fall much more.

we will see/are seeing tiered pricing. the top box, $1500, the middle $1000, the low end $500. what constitutes the tiers will change as technology improves, yada yada.

the reason for the abnormally low prices is that businesses have cut IT spending, consumers haven't upgraded, and the white box market has grown. for the first time in a long while, hardware performance far surpasses software demands (of course xp tries really, really hard!!!). so, companies' inventories are bloated. when things pick up, so will pricing.

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Re:It's not about linux (IMHO)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 30, 2002 11:43 AM
Linux was created out of a consumer drive to be different, to appeal to our needs. I think it is time consumers join to create such hardware. I am not crazy-I have several years experience in building and selling computers. If enough people agree to get together-could be anyone here, anywhere-and build standardized laptops, the world will be a better place. Our economy sucks because companies don't care about quality-they care about quick cash. They're corrupting our economy-I think we should start to take it back. I think this is how-read, and act. Organize people, then contact ODM's, or screw them manufacture completely original boards-who want their cheap capacitors anyway. It really is something to think about, something work acting on. Many have tried and failed to do this-large companies don't like it-but too bad. Let's build open source laptops for open source platforms.

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How about a $799 LindowsOS Laptop?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 02, 2002 02:14 AM
Rumor has it that Lindows (http://lindows.com) is coming out with a laptop to be sold on Walmart.com for $799. Microsoft watch out, this is the only linux distribution to reach this price point and have this much success. I hear that Lindows has already outsold most other distros and they do not even have a final product yet.

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$799 Laptop from Lindows.com via Walmart.com

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 02, 2002 02:16 AM
Rumor has it that Lindows (http://lindows.com) is coming out with a laptop to be sold on Walmart.com for $799. Microsoft watch out, this is the only linux distribution to reach this price point and have this much success. I hear that Lindows has already outsold most other distros and they do not even have a final product yet.

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I got one from LinuxCertified

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 15, 2002 02:01 PM
Well I got exactly that (powerful $999 Linux laptop) from LinuxCertified recently.

http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux_laptops.html

the machine came pre-loaded and so far works great.

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Refurb Thinkpad - reasons

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2002 10:32 PM
After much mullarkey I decided to buy a beefed up (DVD/RAM) refurb Thinkpad because:

so much support for linux installs already on the net (search "linux thinkpad T21") for a relative linux newby like me.

In web design I need a mobile machine to show clients how db admin works exactly and at the same time not have to worry about Linux/NT differences in mysql/php

Yes, I have a budget, but would have happily shelled out another 200 ukp for not have to *rig with win200/linux/dual booting etc

I looked HARD but found no options to but new - found this article too late - hmpph

My choice gives me most bang for buck with the hope of lots on online support (eg getting a winmodem to work).

I got 18mths warranty

I can upgrade to WiFi

P111 800 - how fast can I type?

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