Linux.com

First of all my opinion is that Linux is NO DESKTOP OS. Regardless of the fact that you can install either KDE or GNOME on it. There is a big illusion that a bunch of people always trap in because they expect that Linux behaves like Microsoft Windows and I fear the day that companies such as RedHat are trying to push linux to become something like Microsoft Windows.

So far my own opinion. Please reader know that RedHat mainly uses GNOME as their Desktop and also note that GNOME has a lot of flaws that won't get fixed anytime soon. To read more about current GNOME situation please read <A HREF="http://newsvac.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=28619&cid=38546">this link</a newsforge.com> and the replies to it. The replies explaining current flaws of GNOME which is used in RedHat are a mirror of the current GNOME version as in CVS. Please note that the CVS version are in UI and STRING deepfreeze so all named UI issues won't get fixed for this release anymore. Please also take your time and read <A HREF="http://gnomesupport.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1387">this link</a gnomesupport.org> and if you came from Windows and you dislike the Windows Registry then read this link because you meet the Windows Registry pukage again in GNOME. From my personal expirience and knowledge a couple of developers and contributors to the GNOME project resigned to continue working on and with GNOME. The whole development seemed to have slowed down like rats arse for the past months which is a good sign that developers are not happy with GNOME anymore it doesn't stimulate them to work on good usable applications for GNOME even a lot of so called standards which where called up on <A HREF="http://www.freedesktop.org/">Freedesktop</a freedesktop.org> are mainly decided by GNOME developers (usually the same 5-6 people that endless fill the GNOME mailinglist and doesn't reflect any norms or standard either by DIN or ANSI. But they implement these so called standards because there isn't anything else. At the end it results in breakage with applications that don't care or support GNOME at all e.g. people complain about Dialogs staying on top of other windows or Applications that annoyingly stay on top of other apps etc. Whenever you report these problems to the GNOME Bugtrackingbase or their Mailinglist you usually get told to report a bug to the mentioned application for not conforming to the freedesktop.org standards (which are NO standards). Anyways I think I should have you told this before you hype the situation to much. I do respect the hard work of the GNOME developers but they already lost focus of reality thats why I personally stopped activities on the GNOME section and switched over to KDE which IMO is far superior to anything else available on Linux today.

#

I've been using Linux as my OS of Choice since 1997, and At the moment, I'll use ANYTHING but RH as my desktop. I have 8 computers here, and use Suse (which is my primary desktop), Xandros (which my wife uses and loves), Plain Debian, Mandrake 9 (which I love as well), and I even have NetBSD and Solaris. RedHat is marketed and sold primarily as a server OS, but in my opinion, Debian is better at being a server. The joys of apt-get update! For those who don't know, Xandros is a Debian-based distro, and the price is worth it for the CodeWeavers's Office alone!

#

This person probably works for either Microsoft (most likely -- judging by the "divide and conquer" tone) or a competing distribution. If you like the article, I would advise following a similar course. In fact, there are some excellent desktop-oriented distributions that you can download for free. The easiest to use would likely be Lycoris, Red Hat, and Mandrake. The latter two include GNOME as well as KDE. In addition, they tend to include both server and desktop packages, while Lycoris is KDE-only, more desktop oriented, and is thinner on applications. But it probably installs faster! Or, go with something completely off-the-wall like ELX (but don't expect the level of support to be as deep).

You may find out more about various distributions at:
http://www.distrowatch.com/

Then download them from:
http://www.linuxiso.org/

Then, leave the polemics to the professors, their students, Microsoft employees, and the underemployed while you make your exciting initial Linux discoveries. If you find one you like, purchase an "official" copy, when you have a chance. It's really pretty easy (usually) and can be a lot of fun.

#

> This person probably works for either
> Microsoft (most likely -- judging by the
> "divide and conquer" tone) or a competing > distribution.

No, definately I don't work for Microsoft. And I doubt that Microsoft eployees would spent so much time in either GNOME or KDE or could even come up with so much indepth details and proven Links. God gave you brain and eyes to read Links don't you ? These obvious issues within GNOME are all proveable so stop acting like a fool.

#

So, Microsoft hires no developers? Microsoft has no one capable of reading and participating in Open Source forums? And, Microsoft would not be interested in taking a disagreement within the Open Source community to fan the flames?

Get real. Microsoft's entire business model is at stake. Everything that you're doing tears at vital Open Source projects and, as a result, makes Microsoft look more attractive to the uninitiated.

Go back to Redmond.

#

Sorry, you're right. I should have read your links. In doing so, some things became obvious:

1. GNOME is looking for a way to sustain the growth of the project by catering to business customers. (Gosh! That's just terrible! What of the poor college sophomore who wants to tweak Enlightenment for and entire evening, then post his prescious screenshots for all the world to adore?)

2. Your links suck. A follow up post on your GNOME user's board seems to agree. They point to more of your rants, not useful information.

3. You don't deny that you work for another Linux distribution. Okay, so you don't work for Microsoft, but with these kinds of inflammatory posts, you might as well try to collect a check from them, too.

4. The nurse on-duty is not very attentive. Now, you aren't even supposed to be using that computer, are you?

#

Please explain detailed what you mean with "They point to more of your rants" ? I was writing here only and pointed to some other Links that I found over time what's wrong with that ? Not to mention that many of the Links shown above are written by people spread on various countries over this globe.

#

I've been quite happily using Linux on my workstations since 1998. In 2000, I found the Linux distrobutions (RedHat, Mandrake, and SuSe) so much easier to use and especially easier to maintain than Windows, that in the autumn of 2000 I finally wiped the last Windows installation from my home computers.

Linux, in my experience, is easier, faster, more secure, more stable than Windows. Easier is subjective, but increasing numbers of non-techies are coming to the same conclusion based on their own experiences. Faster, more secure, and more stable are established facts. By the way, why is it that Microsoft's new license prohibits the publication of benchmarks?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) Have they something to hide

If you need even easier or are still dependent on Illustrator, Photoshop, Quark, then I recommend OS X. Macintoshes are quite affordable these days and OS X gives you the best of both the Macintosh interface and UNIX - easy to use, yet fast, stable, powerful, and easy to maintain.

#

I'm just of the opinion that linux is the killer app if you want to run a web server or a similar use - stick with windows if you want to run a computer that people actually use directly.

Don't want to start a fight, but Windows is top for a very good reason (and it's not Bill's ruthless nature)

#

windows is "tops" because you cant buy a box without it. But the code sucks, your privacy disappears and it crashes all the time - - - -everyone knows this. __Everyone__ LOokit NWNights- and sooon all games will be written for linux at the same time as other os's and theN bill will suck cheese cause the actuall decsider in os choice chooses the open free private won't crash os - the 13 to 19 year olds who make all decsions in the house HOUSSSSSSSSSSSSE

#

Stop talking like a dumbass Windows is right now far superior as Desktop. All drivers come out on Windows FIRST, all Games come out on Windows FIRST, the overall usability is still on Windows. Not Like on Linux where you need to setup all shit again as soon as you update some freaking shit (I don't use a distro so this is more expert blubbering). All this is not required on Windows.

#

What's the reason Windows is "better"?

#

This gent talks too much. Like a Lusr cares about details except when they bite his azz. Trash. The box better kiss it's own butt and work first time. Period. RedHat_8 damned near just works out-of-the-CD. I'm NO RedHat fan ( WinME is my fav ) but I keep a modest P4 *nix box just to know what's happening. What happened with RedHat_8 was the pieces just dropped in. First hardware<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... WD, Mx400, USR_56, 2940_SCSI+drives, usb_ZIP<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... RedHat sucked 'em up. Gotta scr*w with FSTAB a bit who can't? Then proggies<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Privoxy, F-Prot, RP, AbiWord, Opera_L, Grass5 and even Monkeybrain Ximian(?) and Galeon (damnedfast!!) say nothing of the OS updates. Surprised hell outa me. Too bad about midi & mp3, but weenies might figure 'em out. Sure I paid for RedHat_8 and will do so again. As for SusE-the-*itch & KDE? Pure bloatwear<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... sit on it.

#

Maybe you are willing to phrase 2 sentences correctly next time so people may be able to understand what you want to explain.

#

Sorry but there went a little mistake in my last post there should be a link showing you the Windows Registry system for GNOME please <A HREF="http://gnomesupport.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1410">click here</a gnomesupport.org> and probably the official site <A HREF="http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/">here</a gnome.org> which contains detailed information about GConf they actually use the terms of Windows-Registry like system here.

I like that everyone makes their own REAL opinion about this in case you never heard about all the issues or problems that comes with it. Regardless if some people (mainly GNOME zealots) thinks that many of these issues are rants. You can easily verify these issues on your own regardless what other people think. It's hard nowadays to get objective feedback which reflect the truth since GNOME is often sold to you as something that could easily compete with Windows9x etc. but thats definately not the case.

#

Whats wrong with GConf? Its one of my favorite parts of GNOME. If you want to make some kind of technical argument here you'll have to do better than "OMG its the Windows registry, I have no idea what I'm talking about!!!"

#

Weren't there enough Links for you to read in the first 2 comments ? It's explained over and over again.

- Issues with Schemas,
- Issues when mounting over NFS,
- Issues with replacing broken keys with default ones,
- Nightmare for many programmers,
- Running as deamon

and and and.

Please read the Links.

#

- Issues with Schemas,

There was some vague discussion of how the schema system was slightly ugly but it wasnt a real "issue" as in a bug or design flaw.

- Issues when mounting over NFS,
- Issues with replacing broken keys with default ones,

Which are? I searched in the links you gave and found no mention of these.

- Nightmare for many programmers,

I've written programs using GConf. As C APIs go its probably one of the nicest libraries I've used - inredibly simple, extensible and flexible.

- Running as deamon

Which is a problem how?

#

> > - Issues when mounting over NFS,
> > - Issues with replacing broken keys with
> > default ones,

> Which are? I searched in the links you
> gave and found no mention of these.

It's obvious now that you haven't looked at these links specially the 'why gconf' one. end of communication.

#

> It's obvious now that you haven't looked at these links specially the 'why gconf' one. end of communication.

There is one mention of NFS on page 5 of that thread and it isnt related to problems with Gconf using it.

#

NEVER EVER use, promote or install redhat!!! This company willingly sold out democracy (Taiwan vs China issue) for dollars, they are evil!

They have also done some other unethical stuff, for example hijacking great bridge's software and knowingly driving them out of business.

There are lots of other good distribution (including suse), there is no need to support tyranny.

#

Erm... Uh huh...
Like Microsoft is any better? Like McDonalds is any better? Like NIKE is any better?

Yet will still purchase their products.

#

Hello, I'm not the initial poster of this comment but I agree to you Microsoft Windows is superior AND better than RedHat 8.x and GNOME I say this because I belive in what I write regardless the fact that I'm a Linux user for many years now. It's a lie if you belive that Microsoft Windows is worse.

Experts on Linux say that RedHat simply sucks but Newbies and JOE USER from Windows prefer RedHat. But the common acceptance of the majority of Linux users is NOT accepting RedHat. Debian, Gentoo, Suse, Mandrake are prefered Distros for many users.

#

Umm, I DO like linux much more than windows.
And that really is not a lie:)

#

I do Like linux too where is your point ? The initial reply was comparing RedHat Linux as Desktop OS vs. Windows as Desktop OS and therefore I vote for Windows as the winner because it doesn't use the sucking GNOME crap which claims to be as good as at least Windows 9x which is not the case.

#

"Like Microsoft is any better?"

Actually, yes they are. Microsoft has, despite much pressure by the dictatorship in China, refused to remove Taiwans independant status. So have also HP for example who had to pay fines because they listed Taiwan as independant and refused to change it.

Check out the country-list in any windows version.

Defending basic democratic values and rights is everyones moral obligation.

#

Well of COURSE the'd go the commie route...

They're RED Hat. Duh!

#

Are we going to judge distros on their merits or over irrelevant political considerations? Oh, wait; you already made your decision didn't you. Schmuck.

#

of course they will, this is the open source club, remember? these people are neo-socialists.

take communists and hippies, mix 'em together, and you get these people. they can never use what is best for the job, instead they must allow politics to decide for them,

and they wonder why they're mostly unemployed....

#

neo-socialists? communists and hippies? Who are you? McCarthy or J.E. Hoover - reincarnated?

Didn't realize that choosing an operating environment designed and built *by the people, and for the people, who use it* was a communist or neo-socialist activity. If so, then call me what ever floats your isolationist, social-darwinist, 'big brother' rowboat...

I personally have and will choose to have the stability, *freedom*, and *CHOICE* that I have with opensource and GNU/Linux any day.

Sincerely,

"A well-employed All-American OpenSource Fanatic"

PS: Flower Power Rules man!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

#

What if "the job" changes? Ignoring licensing, source availability, and politics when choosing "the best tool" isn't the pragmatic method of choosing, it's the inept fucking retarded method.

-Smack

#

Life IS change, and the job market is no expection... And the IFR (inept fucking retarded) method conducted while wearing blindfolds is your alternative. As far as politics and the IFR method connection goes, well I'm just not touching that one....

#

"Are we going to judge distros on their merits or over irrelevant political considerations?"

So you think basic rights like democracy are irrelevant?

We are not talking about spoiled children complaining about how their "rights" are beeing violated when they are not allowed to warez mp3's, we are talking about serious human rights violations.

#

well said

#

rpm --rebuild http://location/of/kernel.src.rpm

One of these two will hose your system, if you can get it to actually build. The other just builds the RPM.

Happy re-installing.

#

Right, I also heard that RedHat is totally incompatible to other standardized Linux distributions. I heard about issues when you like to compile vanilla sourcecodes because RedHat totally changed a lot of structures and other stuff which fails to compile for other people. Let me point you to Mosfet a long year KDE contributor and wise person that made a lot of good contribution and soul behind many inventations behind KDE. Read <A HREF="http://www.mosfet.org/noredhat.html">his comments</a mosfet.org> regarding RedHat.

#

Citing mosfet.org as a source of information is as reliable as the government saying it will lower taxes next year...

#

God, I heard your opinion and respect it. Regardless if you don't like Mosfet or not I at least totally share his opinion as I did before he wrote his comment on his page. I was posting his page because I couldn't have written it better than him. His and my opinion weights as much as everyones else opinion.

#

Mosfet is a talented crackpot. Liquid is beautiful. His web page and it's content ain't.

#

Well you can't measure each human on this globe to fit exactly your vision of a human. There are a lot of individuals outside. We need to learn to respect all of them regardless of what crackheads they are. These people have all rights to be respected correctly.

#

Mandrake Linux is by far the best Linux.
Mandrake Linux is Linux for the people.

later

#

Mandrake Linux's business model is to beg for money.
Mandrake Linux is about to go out of business.
Mandrake Linux will be gone in two year.

#

Mandrake is not begging for money. Mandrake
Club is growing with thousands of people
joining and decided what direction we want
the distro to take.

Mandrake will not go out of business if the
people stand up for Mandrake.

Mandrake is Linux for the people.

if u stop for a moment and realize what
red hate has done. they screwed over kde
just because they could do it. if u support
red hat u are not supporting freedom.

i do find this interesting though. so many
people leave microsoft because they want
some freedom and then they go and support
a distro like red hat which is not supporting
freedom but supporting only themselves.

i use kde as my desktop. i respect those that
choose gnome of something else. red hat does
not do this.

u of can be a fan of red hat if u wish. but
at least stop for a moment and think about it.

Mandrake is for the people. red hat is for themselves. Mandrake has kde and gnome and
some other desktops. u can decide for yourself.

many people say they are sick of people talking
about red hat and what they did, well people
need to talk about it. Linux is about freedom
and it seems that just because red hat is the
biggest and they show they can be the bully
that they are attracting a lot of people because
of this. think about that for a moment.

the distro that in some ways show abusive behavior towards other distros is the distro
that many people are flocking to. that should
tell u something about people in general.

#

I recently switched from Windows to using Linux on my desktop. Its a very nice system, impressive considering it was designed by amateur hackers around the world. However, I think the fact that there are multiple distributions of Linux is one of the biggest factors hindering its success.

When you write software for Windows, you only have to target one system. If you want to write Linux software you have to target at least five to get all the common distros, and even then it will never be perfect. This kind of fragmentation is disastrous. I installed SuSE the other week after reccommendation from a fellow user but found none of my Redhat packages would install.

As Redhat is the most common distro, I suggest that we as users should all use it so that it can become the one distro and the others will be forced to either use its standards or die. I know this sounds rather drastic, but if you want Open Source to succeed you will do this. It is vital that companies have a single standard system they can target.

#

> As Redhat is the most common distro, I
> suggest that we as users should all use it
> so that it can become the one distro and
> the others will be forced to either use its
> standards or die.

No this is exactly the oposite.

- Suse,
- Mandrake,
- Connectiva,
- YellowDog,
- Debian

and some more distros signed the LHS standard and packaging standards and follow them exactly by offering one unified system. The problem is REDHAT is dancing out of bounds here with their own stuff. REDHAT is nearly inconsistent to everything by going their own way. RedHat is the distro which is NOT used most by Linux zealots. It's the newcommers System for people like you who recently switched from Windows to Linux. Experts avoid using RedHat because of all the issues. Read the Mosfet link above. The problem here is that much replies come from people that used to use Windows and expect Linux to work as Windows these people are hyping RedHat in all hypes and make it look better than it is in reality.

#

It's funny that all of the distributions that you mention with the single exception of Debian use RPM as their package management system. What does RPM stand for? Red Hat Package Manager. Yup, Red Had developed the package management system and allowed all of the others to use it.

I submit that without Red Hat innovation many of the others would not be nearly as far along as they are. In fact Mandrake took it one step farther at the beginning and just took a copy of Red Hat and modified it slightly to make their own distribution.

#

Yes and ? please make your point. RPM was made back in early days and a couple of distributions agreed upon it. This doesn't excuse that RedHat is going their own way nowadays. Using their Packagemanager has nothing to do with the Road that RedHat is going these days.

#

What road is that? I find Red Hat 8.0 to be the biggest leap ahead that they have ever made in a distribution upgrade. And I have been using Red Hat since before version 3.0. I also use and like other distributions. I think Red Hat is the best "does all" distribribution out and support for Red Hat is unmatched.

#

Well I usually ask myself why I even start a discussion with RedHat users you can't convince them in any ways.

<A HREF="http://www.mosfet.org/noredhat.html">Link</a mosfet.org>
<A HREF="http://gnomesupport.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1387">Link</a gnomesupport.org>

read that.

#

With all due respect, your comments show that you haven't yet learned the real advantages of Linux. Linux is vastly more versatile than windows is. Multiple distributions are only one part of it. You can configure your system in so many different ways, and you can have almost any sort of GUI that you want (see my remarks in "so what? plus some observations" below). You can have different file systems, different boot managers, different printer control systems, different anything, really.

If you subtract all this optionality from Linux, you are left with a pale shadow of the real thing. That would be Lindows, I suppose.

#

not to sound like a troll, but - you Mr. Clown don't understand the Linux movement. In my understanding, the movement is about a lot of things, but isn't about making a Microsoft. If you want Microsoft, go use Microsoft. Opem Source is surviving well without bozos like you making proclaimations like the ones in your post.

#

So what? This was not very informative.

I don't agree with some observations here that Linux "is not a desk top OS." Linux is what you make of it, and certainly, the folks at KDE have made an excellent desktop. Personally, I prefer the KDE desktop to that of windows (I don't have any experience with the Gnome desktop, but I have tried Galeon and I much prefer Konqueror). One reason KDE is better is that Konqueror by itself is vastly more versatile, and easy to use, than IE plus the desktop explorer.

The nice thing about Linux, of course, is that you have two integrated desktops, plus a host of window managers, to choose from. I do think that for ease of use and speed of response, the BeOS GUI beats (or beat, past tense) both KDE and Windows. Unfortunately, there was never much software for it. If you check out www.cosmoe.com, you will find that someone is trying to build a BeOS-type interface for Linux. I wish him good luck.

Personally, I am enormously happy with Ion, which is a totally different kind of gui. Its main advantages are (1) that I never have to reach for the mouse and (2) that it actually manages the windows, instead of making me manage them. I simply do not need all the little bells and whistles that most people think are so nice about windows and KDE, nor do I need the drag that they impose on my cpu.

#

There is one point that people fail to understand. Whenever people write 'Linux is NOT a DESKTOP OS' then they usually talk about the bottom Layer e.g. configuration, a lot of tweaking with the hand and all the fun you have by customizing your System.

Whenever people talk about 'Linux is not ready for the Desktop' then they in general mean that they like Linux to mature into something Windows like e.g. the whole bottom layer should totally disappear. Actually the bottom layer is that what Linux is in general what the purpose of a Unix like System is. Companies such as RedHat and the GNOME people want to completely turn Linux into some Desktop OS they are trying hard to get all the bottom Layer away over time and make Linux to start suck bad ass. That's what they are trying, what their intention is and what they actually doing.

If you use Linux as Desktop OS then it's ok you install KDE ontop of Linux and use it but still know that the core bottom Layer is untouched and stays in the philosophy of Unix.

KDE is respecting Linux and Unix, they bring the Desktop to Linux and Unix. They honour and respect the fact that Linux should stay as it was meant to be a cool Experts System while on the other hand they offer a cool Desktop which is as mature as Windows.

GNOME is disrespecting Linux and Unix, they are trying to bring Linux and Unix to the Desktop. Instead getting their Desktop on Linux their primary goal is to change all stuff within Linux to suit the needs of GNOME. If it goes for them then they would have re-written Linux and everything else only to fulfill the needs of their Desktop. See what RedHat is trying.

#

It really is ironic GNOME is a GNU/Free Software project - GNU Network Orientated Model Enviroment. Speak up, Stallman!

I think GNOME needs some serious rethinking and realignment. It has potential. All those corrupt Ximian developers need to GO. Look at GNOME at 1.4 (what I'm using now), and develop from there. 2.0 really fucked things over it was so backward.

#

Exactly. I totally agree to you. Although I have to admit that GNOME 2.0 from a developmentplattform is quite cool but the results you as user see is quite crap e.g. a bunch of things they implemented was the worst nightmare ever e.g. Swapping Buttons as in MacOS-X and therefore breaking consistency on all applications, the GConf Windows Registry like implementation and finally Simplifying everything for JOE DUMB EX-MICROSOFT USER made me personally go away from GNOME. I don't plan or intend using GNOME anytime soon anymore until they realize that their new target sucks ass. Please read <A HREF="http://gnomesupport.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1387">this comment</a gnomesupport.org> and then read the reply to it from one of the GERMAN Gnome section members who does translations and maintains the german page at <A HREF="http://gnomesupport.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7703#7703">this link</a gnomesupport.org>. If they don't change their target really quick then it's the end of GNOME regardless for it being GPL or LGPL. Because everyone looses respect to them.

#

GNU Network Orientated Model Enviroment

Replace Orientated with Object

#

For those of you who have chosen Red Hat I have written a few tips (tutorials) for some items you may be interested in:

<A HREF="http://voidmain.kicks-ass.net/redhat/">Void's Red Hat Tips</a kicks-ass.net>

I like several distributions of Linux and have been using Linux since before the distribution days (pre SLS/Slackware/SuSe). I have used Red Hat primarily since version 3.0 but I also like Debian and SuSe. I decided to pick one and start a distro specific tips section very recently. There is a boatload of general information out there that is not distribution specific which I believe makes life harder for n00bs. I want to try and get some simple step by step instructions for some of the harder tasks. If anyone would like to contribute to this I would appreciate it and suggest corrections to any existing information. Just let me know in my guestbook or email (found in the guestbook).

I didn't like the new Red Hat 8.0 for the first few days. In fact I despised it because I'm sort of a hard core UNIX guy and felt the new GUI was an insult. But I have since realized that this is the best distribution they have come out with yet and it is closer to the desktop than it has ever been. The future is very bright. Just a couple of cents...

#

I started my linux experience with Suse 8.0 and I loved it. There was one problem though. LILO was so slow it was unbelievable. Also, I found out most software is written for Red Hat. I decided to stick with Suse, mainly because I love KDE. I "upgraded" to Suse 8.1 It was a big mistake. All of a sudden programs that had worked in 8.0 stopped working. It would not even monitor my laptop's batteries anymore as the pcmcia support was broken. Tho OpenOffice that came with 8.1 had a major bug that would not allow you to save any documents. I had to reinstall from the OO website. But here is where it gets worse. Suse has Linuks, a service that provides optimised rpms for the Suse distro. This is a necessity as nothing compiles on it anymore because everyone is writing for the real standard(Red Hat, not LSB). Suse, in their greater wisdom decided to stop adding any software after October 10. And if you want to get any compiled programs you have to go to apps.kde.com which is now a subscription service. Just like windows, you have to pay for you Suse programs now. On the positive side Grub was a lot faster than Lilo but the resultant chaos made it imperative for me to get rid of 8.1. I am now looking at Libranet. I can't live without my kde.

#

Dude that is absolute pure bullshit. And definately you obviously have NO clue at all otherwise you won't come up with so much written shit. I share options of others and I do respect them as long as they write true points but your information is comming out of nowhere and once again prooves how many clueless people use Linux nowadays.

First of all RedHat is NO standard and people who writes applications DON'T care for REDHAT at all. A lot of true programmers use systems such as Debian, LFS or Gentoo to write applications of their choice. To say the truth RedHat is one of THESE distributions that recently broke everything from first Bit till the end e.g. they broken GCC, GLIBC and a lot of other stuff in their recent distribution which makes RedHat the most incompatible System of programmers. Another point that is totally in antagonism is the fact that you love KDE and that it works best on REDHAT. This alone is the biggist anathonism itself since RedHat usually bashes and completely fucked up KDE in their recent distribution. Your comment is totally for the trash from the first written letter till the last one. To read more about RedHat's fuckup of KDE go <A HREF="http://www.mosfet.org/noredhat.html">to this link</a mosfet.org>. Next time investigate better before writing things like this.

#

Dude, lighten up a little. This guy just shared his experiences and who are you to tell him they didn't happen? And just for your information, Red Hat is just as much a standard as SuSe or any other distribution if not more so:

<A HREF="http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/021008/80315_1.html">LSB Certified (again)</a yahoo.com>

And I don't know how you can argue against there being more software targeted to Red Hat.

#

Well it's a big difference sharing opinions or simply writing wrong lines here which users new to linux at the end may belive.

> And I don't know how you can argue
> against there being more software
> targeted to Red Hat.

You can't even prove the opposite but it's a known fact that experts avoid using RedHat and most Software is written by experts so at the end it's obvious. But I accept the fact that some people even writes software using a broken RedHat system but these people can't be helped with.

#

What is broken about Red Hat? Of all of the distros I have used over the last 10 years Red Hat has always been the *least* broken. I am a professional software developer and I prefer Red Hat. In fact most of the professionals that I know in all categories (programming, hosting, etc) prefer Red Hat more than any other single distribution. The second most favored is probably Debian.

I can find 99% of the Linux applications in Red Hat RPM format. I can not say that for any other distribution. When I purchase Linux software such as Oracle I find that they target Red Hat.

Maybe you are referring to KDE and KDE developers (which isn't even Linux but I admit a very popular GUI). Is this what you are referring to? Are you one of those KDE people who have a big beef with Red Hat? If so I have to admit that I am somewhat with you on this one but it is only a small piece of the pie. I did prefer using KDE on the last couple of releases. It is an excellent desktop environment. One of the reasons I didn't like Red Hat 8.0 at first is because they messed with KDE. I decided to try out the GNOME/Bluecurve desktop for a period and found that it had less features but is easy to use and very pleasing to the eye.

If KDE is your sole complaint (which I believe it is) then you can always not install the stock KDE. But if KDE is your entire reason for selecting a Linux distribution and you don't know how to install the stock KDE then I would suggest you stick with a different distribution. But believe it or not there is life beyond KDE. GUI for me is not that important. I am just as happy with WindowMaker, Enlightenment, Lesstif, XFce, etc, etc.

#

First of all I'm no KDE developer only to stop this assumption. On the otherhand I find 100% of the apps I need on <A HREF="http://fresmeatnet/">Freshmeat</a fresmeatnet> which is 1% more than RedHat offers. My complaint about RedHat in general is that their practices of how they trade stuff is unethical. Over the years RedHat matured into the Microsoft like company for Linux. Anyways I don't care for RedHat, what they do for Business. I only care about their attitude to the Linux philosophy of turning the philosophy of Linux into some sort of Windows Desktop like OS which they are trying with GNOME only to serve their stupid JOE USER customers.

#

Look, it's people like you that are keeping linux from taking over. That is a stupid, elitist attitude. RTFM. I did that, I went to support, and I went to various user sites. I hate MS with a passion but even I have to admit thay are better in this respect. I have had few problems installing software for Windows. I cannot say the same for linux. Suse went to lsb and then nothing would compile right anymore. All of the programs that worked in 8.0 would not even install in 8.1. I downloaded many programs from Sourceforge and Freshmeat as well as other sites. Programs that worked before, would not with 8.1. Red Hat IS THE STANDARD. Look on download sites. Most everything is geared towards RH or Mandrake. Look at Suse, all of its programs you have to buy now. Before you talk, look at the facts. It seems that some people here just need a company to hate. If not MS then RH. That is not logical and you are shooting linux in the foot with your attitude. You are not going to convert people to linux by keeping it unmanageable. That is why windows is winnig right now. Unlike you, many people have lives and would rather be typing their reports, briefs or whatever instead of going through the rigamarole one needs to do to install a linux program. That said, I believe linux has a great future once it stops this fratricide. The only thing wrong with linux is program installation and some users who seem to think a computer is just to be tweaked, not to be worked with.

#

I'll bet you beat your wife and kick your dog, too. Oh, wait, having a wife would require some social skills, which you obviously lack. And I suspect any self-respecting dog would run in the opposite direction as soon as s/he saw you.

Now having addressed the vitriol, I would like to say - as a Linux newbie - that most Linux veterans I have encountered on various mailing lists and discussion forums have been nothing like the previous poster. In fact, they have been very kind, very supportive, and very helpful. Because of them, I have great hope for the future of Linux on the desktop.

The previous poster takes the elistist view that those who can't or won't get their hands dirty should keep using Windows. To me, Linux is all about giving computer users choices, something Windows and Microsoft seeks to prevent. You are saying that, because some users are not as technical as you (e.g., don't know or use the command line), they do not deserve to have a choice. Linux is about choice, and anything that can be done to make Linux easier to consider as an option should be looked into.Linux is not simply about playing "Who is geekiest?"

Maybe we should gather together all Microsoft users and make them wear a big red "M" on their lapels and make them live in Windows concentration camps. Wait, better not give you any ideas.

#

Personally I've not had too many problems with SuSE 8.1, but from the very moment that I first started to research about it, I've heard almost nothing but complaints about it, even from people who used to be SuSE bigots.

I find SuSE 8.1 to be quite usable, but I find nothing in it that I can't find elsewhere that better suits my needs. So I keep SuSE on one of my eight Linux partitions, but I don't use it very often. Instead, I use Lycoris Desktop/LX a lot, Libranet, Mandrake, and Red Hat to a somewhat lesser degree. I do my daily desktop chores on Lycoris Desktop/LX during the week, then I use Libranet, Mandrake, or Red Hat on the weekends. I tend to do my desktop work in Lycoris and my development or system work on Libranet.

If you're leaning toward Libranet, I highly recommend it to you!

#

I myself use SuSE only because I first bought it back when 6.4 was their latest. I liked the idea of having easy access to all that software that came with it. Plus back then, SuSE had perhaps the easiest install. Since then, I have stuck with SuSE only because it was convenient to do so.

Do I love it? No, but I doubt that I would love any distro. For the time being, I don't think that I have enough knowledge to install a source-based distribution like Gentoo. But I will probably get around to it someday, because I really like being in control of my system and I believe that Gentoo Linux offers the most flexibility in this regard.

Is SuSE's vaunted support so great? No, I have found them to be somewhat unresponsive. But I doubt than anyone else's support is very great, either. Is SuSE's documentation so very useful? Yes and no, but I suspect that it is at least as good as anyone else's.

I will say that I did NOT appreciate SuSE 8.1's replacing my lilo with grub or my old printer control with CUPS. Not that I have anything against either, but I understood them much better than these new things, and I would have appreciated the option of not replacing.

Also I find it very irksome that SuSE's installs used to recognize and configure my Iomega Zip 100 drive, but starting with 8.0, they failed to do so. Now whenever I install a new version of SuSE (I generally do a clean install, since I have<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home on a separate disk that doesn't get overwritten), I have to install the drive myself. Does SuSE have something against Iomega or something?

But these are minor complaints. On the whole, I have found SuSE to be easy enough to use. Yast2 is a very nice tool, and I really appreciate SuSE's online update facility. I don't care a fig about Gnome, never having used it, so I'm not bothered by SuSE's emphasis on KDE. Maybe if I cared more about Gnome I would not like SuSE, I don't know.

I don't understand all the heat here on the subject of which distro is the really, truly best one. What is the big deal, for crying out loud? It's all Linux and you can easily get the same software to run on all of it. That's why that one guy's notion that there is a "standard" distro is really laughable.

My son has Gentoo on his machine, and when I sit down at his console, it practically everything works exactly as it does on my own system. I wouldn't know how to administrate his system, of course. But I'm sure that when he runs his apps, his first thought is not, "Oh boy, I'm running on Gentoo!" Apps are apps, you know?

#

LILO was slow? I have never heard of a problem like that. Did you try taking a look at the config file?

Furthermore, I have never heard of a laptop that monitors batteries through PCMCIA. What type of laptop is it?

#

Gateway. And if you look this particular bug up up on Suse support, that is what they say is the cause. It is also a bug that is not under tech support.

#

I've run SuSE 8.1 and RH 8.0 and RH8 only lasted about a day on my computer.

#

Yes, and good luck on finding any support from these distros on linmodems, generic sound cards, or 90% of the other hardware that comes installed with that windows box. These distros pretty much told me to rebuild my computer. So much for their "support" service.

#

Simply don't buy Hardware which is not supported under Linux. It's also not the fault of the Linux development team (I speak about the Kernel people here) If they don't get any specs from the hardwarevendors. And generic sound works perfectly grab Alsa and some howtos and set it up on your own. If you fail then don't use Linux at all.

Linux is all about using Brain, reading FAQ's, Manuals, HowTo's. If you don't want to go into this hassle then don't use Linux. It's obviously wrong for you then.

#

Yeah, the problem is, I bought my HP 5300C scanner BEFORE I got interested in Linux!

#

Sell it and buy a new one.

#

No problem for me. I have a Lucent LT Winmodem in one computer, and a Connexant HSF in another. Both of these run fine in Mandrake 9.0 after downloading drivers from the internet (using Google search engine). However, I can't find Windows drivers anywhere. Which one is easier now????

Also, when I installed Mandrake 9.0 on my sisters computer, with a USB scanner, SMC ethernet card, and the connexant modem, the only driver I had to install was the modem one. Try that with Windows.

#

Yes, and I'm running a pctel hspmicromodem with an avance sound card on suse. Not to mention a windows dual boot. We might do it, but 90% of the Joe's that buy boxes won't. My point is, this needs to be addressed in a big way before linux on the desktop becomes much more than a geek machine.

#

You're complaining about developers not offering support for your hardware.

You should be complaining (LOUDLY!) about (or preferably to) the hardware vendors not offering Linux drivers, or - even better - not offering enough of documentation to write open-source drivers. (What is so secret on ie. a temperature sensor chip or a modem card that you can't get it without signing a non-disclosure agreement is a question.)

Sorry, but until the manufacturers will upgrade their attitude to less obsolete version, tough luck<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(((

#

I don't really like either of the above distributions. I actualy went through the pain of downloading the entire ftp site for Suse 8.1 and did a nfs install from my home server. It took me forever to get grub installed, kept crashing on me. I found the management tools to be rather lacking and it seemed to me like it wasn't using the most up to date as far as drivers and support.

Red Hat on the other hand installed very nicely. Got my wireless net up painlessly. Was very stable had good support for updating. However as with suse the management tools were rather lacking (as in non-existant) and for a reason I can't figure out, it seemed to suck more resources. My dvd player would run nice and smooth on Mandrake 9.0 but had a tendency to be choppy on Red Hat 8. Couldn't figure out the reason though. While I LIKE the Bluecurve theme, I really think they gear their system to heavily towards Gnome. I havn't tried installing it with just kde and no Gnome, but I have a feeling that alot of things would just stop working if I did that.

I've ran Mandrake 9.0 ever since beta 2 (or somewhere around there). Since the final release I've found it quick, easy to update and with a good set of utilities for managing the system. Their control panel is well layed out and fairly quick. Their method of updating could use some work though. Went through two mirrors (and one that just never responded) before I found one that worked right. They give equal amount of support towards gnome and kde (even though I'm really a kde user mainly..but experimenting lately with Gnome 2.0). I found a bluecurve them that will run on it and even went so far as to create little things like a My Computer and such. I know, for a true linux person that sounds like a cop-out..but for those who are new to linux (which I'm really not) a somewhat familiar interface I think will be necessary. I'd like to see it come with the Crystal icon set personally and concentrate a little more on polishing the desktop and then I think MD9 will be the winner in the desktop area.

Just my 2 cents.

#

All users are different.

If the user is a linux developer, then Gentoo environment will give more consistence in libraries.

If the user is a unix admin, then Gentoo will give the best combination of the bleeding edge and stability.

If the user is an IT person, then Gentoo's packaging system Portage is the best friend.

Besides Gentoo is better optimized and works faster.

#

Yeah, and Gentoo takes 12 hours to install, and even then you don't have your sound card or your printer configured. Gentoo is great and I would like to move in that direction, but I am reluctant to undertake what I am sure will be a royal P. I. T. A.

#

First thing off top, if you are going to challange everyone's opinions and views, or make extremely offensive and controversial remarks, then at least have the guts to sign your name or something. I use RedHat 7.3, so you can't imply any bias when I say that you won't catch me dead using RH 8. The first thing I loved about Linux was the ability to choose. If I wanted to be forced to use only one intereface, I might as well just stuck to Windows. RedHat wants to make their own unified desktop ? Fine with me, but make it optional during install - being able to install KDE and GNOME or just Bluecurce.

The thing that pisses me off the most is the lack of respect for KDE and what it does for the Linux community. I have equally used KDE, GNOME, XFce, WindowMaker, and Enlightenment - and none of them have the interface or the applications to make Linux successful to new users but KDE. I know there are tons of you self righteous elitest who think using the most minimal interface makes you "elite", but it's more to an OS than just being fast. GNOME is faster than KDE, but KDE has far more applications, and the fact of the matter is that newbies rarely look for which of the two is slightly faster. They just want it to work in a easy, efficient manor. So why butcher KDE ? Seeing how it's the larger, easier to use of the two why not sacrifice GNOME instead ? Had it been GNOME on the butcher's block, all of you elitest would have been in supreme protest. KDE gets the guillotine and it's ok though. Go figure..

The statement posted by some anon is completely true - very few expierenced users or diehard Linux supporters use/like/recommend RH8...

#

Gnome is only the product of RedHat's arrogant refusal to go with the standard of KDE. Now it's blowing up in their face as it is fast becoming worse than MacOS 7.x. But even it had more options for the user to configure and had no POS registry.

GNOME will fall by the wayside

#

I totally agree with you.

#

I don't understand what is bugging all you folk?

You can install any window manager you want on Redhat 8. It comes with a few on the CD!

I can't use KDE. I have a small machine and it is as slowwwww as glue. It also looks as ugly as hell out of the box. The menus are worse than any other GUI out there.

I dropped Windowmaker for Gnome a while back. Gnome has bugs but then so does Mac OS X... xawtv is giving me some strife at the moment but desktop applications work just fine.

I kept the bluecurve look for a couple of days. Now I am running an Aqua look alike. As I jump back and forth between Linux and OS X it helps to have a consistent desktop look and feel.

Redhat 8 is a very good distribution. You can run the window manager of your choice on it. But I guess you need to be an "elitist" experienced user to know how to get the absolute maximum out of it.

Out of the box on standard hardware, whether you choose KDE or Gnome, RH 8 it as a great business desktop OS. OOo integration is seamless. Evolution is a great suite. Mozilla rocks.

signed
one of the very few
<A HREF="http://www.tgds.net/vaio.html">RH 8 on Vaio C1XD Picturebook</a tgds.net>

#

I don't understand why you think that there is lack of respect for KDE in the Linux community.

I agree with you that there is good reason to use a desktop, like KDE. I also share your opinion that KDE is the best desktop. But I don't see why you have anything against those who like to work with other interfaces. One great thing about Unix is that there is not exactly one user interface welded on top of it. So, let 1,000 flowers bloom!

I hardly think that running a "minimal" interface makes me part of an elite -- I am just a fat old guy trying learn some new things. But I have found Ion to be a really excellent window manager. It does not load up my system with all sorts of stuff that I am really not interested in, and consequently it is very fast. Also I'm attracted to Ion's graphical paradigm and its text-editorish feel. Ion is a great complement to GNU Emacs, which is by far my favorite text editor/operating environment (I have the Emacs menu bar suppressed and I basically never reach for the mouse). Ion is very fast and it is really the only window manager that lets me interract with X the way I want to.

I wish that more apps were written with a full complement of sensible keystroke commands. Among the browsers, Mozilla is the best in this regard, but I find its limited configurability to be a little bit annoying.

#

Libranet

#

I've been using Red Hat and SuSE of and on for some time. On thing that has bothered me about Red Hat is their push to "entitlements". When reading their documentation, it says that you will need to pay $60 per year per computer to receive updates via the Red Hat network.

SuSe doesn't charge for updates. I can put it on thousands of computers and upgrade them for free.

As for Windows, I can spend $299 for Windows 2000 Pro and update it with pathes for free for the next 5 years (they have just stopped supporting Win 95 and 3.1).

However, with Red Hat I would pay $60 per year for 5 years and it would cost $300 (assuming they don't raise their prices).

I'm not sure if I am reading this correctly, but you have to have the entitlements to use their "up2date" agent . . . and SuSE and windows provide them for free!!!

#

Sorry dude, you need to learn how to read.

First off, red hat is free for those who want to download it and always will be.

Secondly, updates are freely downloadable as well.

Red Hat offers a high speed download service for $5 a month, and I think that's great, since it's in addition to the already free downloads that are available to all.

If you don't want the premium service, don't buy it. If you jump on them because they offer options then you are out of touch and confused.

#

They don't make it obvious . . . dude . . . that there is any other way to download their updates than to use the "up2date" and pay their fees.

Maybe they are trying to "trick" their customers into paying their fees. After all, in Red Hat 8.0 their agent sets in your tool bar and tell you when your system is out of date. When clicking on it, you must have entitlements or shell out the money to get the update.

Dude . . . their marketing people are working overtime. It's like microsoft back in the 80's and I say beware of Red Hat!!!!!

#

Yeah, dude...

I can read and I'm not the dude you answered...

As far as I know, you have to pay to update Red Hat. The other dude answering your post seems to have it right. They don't make it obvious. I suspected it may be possible to update without paying, but it wasn't obvious for a reason. I simply didn't keep the distro installed long enough to bother finding out. I did look though.

I've installed Red Hat, Mandrake, SUSE. Mandrake is out due to their allegiance with russia/china, and I like another distro better. I'll check out others as I have time. Slackware and Debian are next. Slackware will come in especially useful for my older boxes.

Red Hat lived on one computer for a while, and dual booted on another, but it was eventually scrapped as well. The charge for updating had something to do with it.

Suse is on my desktops and servers now. Windows is gone except for a single box with a p2p app on it, and when I get a dedicated box for p2p on gnu/linux, it will be gone on the last box as well.

The problem with suse is that they don't make iso's available. They make you jump through hoops to get the distro. This is tough on a newbie just starting, but I should have the network install working within the next few installs. In the meantime, getting iso copies of the disks is no problem through my local linux group. And I've settled for an interim solution on standardized hardware: dd the partitions on a good/patched install.

Combine the walmart/tigerdirect $200/$220 boxes and dd, and you have nirvana.

btw, dude has been out for at least 18 years.

#

Mandrake is out due to their allegiance with russia/china

Should be Mandrake is out due to france's allegiance with russia/china

#

Dude, if you had bothered to run up2date, you would have noticed that it never ask your to insert money.

#

With Red Hat 8.0 you receive access for one system to the Red Hat Network (RHN), provided you purchase a boxed copy of the software. If you are using a download edition, you have to purchase RHN access - that's one of the features that comes with the purchased software. No need to keep buying software unless you want new versions, unless I'm mistaken.

#

My point exactly. Three Red Hat systems is $180 per year. Over the normal life time support of around five years this will mean I have to pay about $900 (assuming they do not increase the support price over the next 5 years and minus the original cost of the boxed verstion with the assumption I used the downloaded ISO version).

Windows 2000, or XP I can pay $200 - $300 per version (x3) and it will cost $600 - $900 which is cheaper than Red Hat.

SuSE, you buy the boxed version and it is $79.95 (for Pro). I can put it on as many machines as I want, and don't pay another dime.

Why does Red Hat cost more that SuSE or Windows when the code is Open Source?

#

You don't have to pay for updates. You do have to register with Red Hat Network... but it's free! I list two machines under one of my accounts, but only one can be active at a time. When I want to update a machine, I log into RHN... set the machine I want to update as the active one... then use up2date. No problem!

#

Ok, last time --- you -don't- need to subscribe to RHN to get the updates.

1. go to http://freshrpms.net
2. download and install apt.
3. type: apt-get update
4. type: apt-get upgrade

That's it. You are now up to date. No muss, no fuss, no subscriptions.

#

The updates for RH are free and if you want to use up2date, it is free for 1 redhat account. Also, RHN is also free for 1 account.
I once buyed a 60$ RH and still can use RHN for free 14 months later.

#

I used to like KDE more than Gnome, till they bloated it out and now you can't go through any kind of menu without seeing "About KDE" one time is enough cmon

#

oh come on. cant u show a little respect
to the people that wrote it ?. are u saying
because u dont like kde for whatever reason
that its ok for red hat to mess them over.
think about this. if its ok for red hat
to screw over kde then what if they wanted
to mess u over too. would that be alright
with u. ?

#

WHy not try both, I have a mulit boot PC with Red Hat 8.0 and Suse 8.1 installed. they each have teh pros and cons. I use each often, the draw back of Suse I hate KDE the draw back of Red Hat is the bluecruve and the one desk top. But I honestly like Red hat over Suse.

#

Saying that Linux is not a Desktop OS is really a pity since xBSD and true unices are generally stronger than Linux concerning the performance.
With an homogeneous driver core that would focus on evolution of the kernel and a marvel like Enlightenment (overall its future version) as interface which can even mimic other ones, Linux would be able to perform FAR BETTER than Window$ as a desktop OS since it is really open and able to understand a lot of formats.
So for the ones who want to evolve, stop waiting after SUSE or REDHAT commercial chaos and help volunteers like me focus on a BSD-like OS at http://www.malkos.info or still support the http://www.blueeyedos.com project.

#

Install the Rh8, steal...err...liberate some TrueType fonts from a nearby M$ system, install them, then go to the Moz website and get 1.3 alpha RPM's with XFT support. Looks gorgeous.

#

AHMEN..

#

No need to steal...err.liberate them from a nearby Microsoft system, you can download Windows fonts for Linux off the internet. I think you are only "supposed" to download them if you have a Windows licence, although there is no digital agreement to sign...

<A HREF="http://freshmeat.net/projects/msfonts/?topic_id=850%2C859"> Microsoft Fonts Under Linux</a freshmeat.net>

#

M$ have recently stopped allowing this, I believe. See http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/defa<nobr>u<wbr></nobr> lt.htm

Basically, you're now committed to steal - er - liberate and install them in various ways (ttmkfdir, DrakFont, etc)

#

I think that there is still plenty of room for improvement, but both Red Hat and SuSE represent overall improvements in making the desktop computing environment accessible to users. The author accurately notes that there are several things that can be done to improve each of these implementations, but I'd suggest that both offer fairly usable desktop environments today, even as they are.

Hardware support for Linux software in general still has plenty of room for improvement, and I really think that's the one factor that can keep some users away from using these software distributions, yet at the same time, I believe it is possible and practical to use Linux software every day on the desktop.

Red Hat is definitely already there when it comes to server software; in my opinion, the desktop is steadily improving, but needs more work if it is to become a common appliance that the general population chooses to use. Meanwhile, though, it is pretty usable, at least for those who have the right hardware on which to install it.

Same goes for SuSE.

I feel that there are three distributions of Linux that really cater to the desktop even more than these two, and even more than one of my favorites, Mandrake. These three distributions are Lycoris Desktop/LX, LindowsOS, and Xandros.

Lycoris is truly easy to use and a desktop dream. Xandros has an edge with better documentation, but it is quite a bit more expensive. LindowsOS is the most current, in terms of software that's available, but the least polished of the three, and it also carries a high price.

I pick Lycoris out of this bunch as the distro that's made for the consumer. It still needs more polish, but it's usable as is, even today, for many consumers, and you can even buy it on a computer at Wal-Mart.

You can get LindowsOS and Mandrake on systems at Wal-Mart, too. The trade-offs are these: Lindows has the most flexible software packaging, but requires you to download a lot of software to get a complete system. Mandrake comes with a lot of good software, but for the complete novice, it may actually have too much software and be confusing. Mandrake is the winner for the casual hobbyist.

My choices for desktop Linux software right now?

Lycoris Desktop/LX - for ease of use and great ergonomic design, you can't beat it.

Mandrake - for the hobbyist and open software user, this company really involves the community, so they've won quite a following.

Libranet - haven't mentioned them so far. This is my favorite distro as an experienced software developer and administrator. It does not have all of the ease of use and ergonomic features of the other distros, but it has a totally complete set of software and the best packaging system in the business, so this is the one that developers really love.

So there they are: Lycoris Desktop/LX, Mandrake, and Libranet. These are the three that I use most. Red Hat has really picked up some ground, so it's now a viable desktop choice, too, but fits the business community better than the home user, at least at the current stage of development. SuSE is close to Red Hat and Mandrake, and makes a decent compromise between the features of RH and Mdk, but in my book, comes up just a bit short.

What am I using right now? Lycoris Desktop/LX.

#

Since you've criticised SuSE here and in your other post on this thread, I would be most interested to year your specific complaints against it, which you haven't shared. I am no devotee of SuSE myself, but I do use it to the exclusion of other Linuxes. I am considering an eventual move to Gentoo but I am rather certain that the Gentoo install and system config is a very difficult one and certainly is very time-consuming.

To me it seems that there is very little to choose between the major distros, certainly not enough to justify the passions that have been aroused on this thread. I am surprised, however, that there is so little partisanship for Debian, which does seem, better than the others, to uphold some of the political premises associated with Linux.

Your own preferences with regard to distributions seem (to this reader) to be dictated somewhat by smoothness and functionality of the desktop. Lycoris, for instance, is widely reputed to offer a good, Windows-like desktop.

The more I do with Linux, however, the less I find myself in need of a desktop! For example, I find emacs from the shell, without X at all, to be as useful a text editor as any other (though generally I run emacs under X). For file manipulations I would just as soon use mc or emacs in shell mode, or line commands, as konqueror or the Windows explorer.

I suppose this all stems from my desire for control of my work environment and my work product. I would much sooner write html than use a wysiwig html editor like the terrible MS Front Page, for example, because I have absolute control of the effects that I achieve and nothing happens if I don't want it to. I have a little problem with wysiwig in general, for example word processors. There are all those painstaking mouse manipulations, and all those hidden characters that suddenly become active and screw up your text (of course, I do use a word processor). I feel exactly the same way about my OS, which is the main reason I have Linux.

So given that particular taste, I find some of the things that desktops do to be rather frustrating and lacking in transparency. All those files are being edited in the background, and they never have the decency to tell you what they've done!

Icons, buttons, desktops and taskbars are gradually becoming less and less useful to me.

Anyway, to come back to my question, what is it specifically that you don't like about SuSE?

#

If you run a serious business and need a compatible server, choose RedHat, not doubt about it.
Then, buy any Linux hardware and you will se the label: "RedHat Certified". No other distribution has that many hardware aproved than RedHat.
Also, RedHat is the only distribution trying to help the corporate desktop user, they invented Bluecurve while other just ship a desktop theme from themes.org.
I see many angry people that hate RedHat. Let me say if you hate RedHat, you hate Linux!

#

"RedHat Certified" like "(MS)Windows Compatible"?
Hardware and software "Powered by Redhat"?
Is that what we want? Another monopoly?
Is this the freedom of GNU/Linux and Open Source?
I run serious business and I prefer my machines to run SuSE 8.x & SuSE Servers.
Oh! and sorry I didn't know KDE is based on "a desktop theme from themes.org."

#

That guy is obviously quite narrowminded. All these Hardware drivers which RedHat claims to certify are written by normal programmers all around the globe. Certifying them is quite stupid and another tactics of RedHat to increase sales. Now you people understand why other people think that RedHat sucks rats arse. Because they behave like monopolists.

#

RedHat is not monopoly!
Stop comparing it to Microsoft, please.
Most RedHat certified hardware have a download section for RedHat drivers in their home page. Thats helps SysAdmin a lot, and thats why that it is good for bussiness.
You know that not all SysAdmin has the time or knowledge to install a hardware until they have instructions or drivers from the manufacturer.

Everytime RedHat is compared to Microsoft's monopoly, I can not understand Linux users.
What do anti RedHat wants?

My point is that RedHat has and is helping Linux a lot, and that people can not forget.

#

Monopoly? How can you compare RedHat to Microsoft? The full version of RedHat is available to download for free. In the case of SUsE, you have to buy the box or have a friend to buy the box.
What would you say if you buy a new hardware to your super server and call tech support and they say:
"SUsE? uh? I know about RedHat, but not about SUsE"
Thats what I'm walking about.

Anyway, you are free to use whatever distro you like, but stop attacking RedHat! RedHat is a Linux distro too! If we Linux users turn to each other, the only one who wins is Microsoft.

#

I must be an idiot to run "serious business" without technical<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/support dept. If you want to use Linux<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/UNIX without the apropriate background, pls make a favour to yourself and choose M$ (and be ready for the bad sh**).

   
RedHat is not monopoly yet.
But Redhat wants to be! Thats why they make their tricks with the certified drivers, their strange anatomy and configuration of their system and they choose not to support standards.
I want RedHat to be a succesfull linux company but they want to be the most succesfull company off all doing suspicious things.

#

I happen to prefer Red Hat but I also use several other distros that are very good. I certainly don't see anything bad about certifying hardware. It sure makes it easy to look up the hardware in the Red Hat database before building a machine to make sure all of the hardware will work. Saves a lot of time and money.

If it's in Red Hat's certified hardware list you can be fairly certain it's going to work with any other distro (even if it takes a little tweaking). The hardware compatibility list is certainly not a complete list, obviously much hardware not on the list will also work but it may take a little more research and tweaking.

So I agree with some of the others. Stop the distro wars. We are all on the same side. Use Red Hat's certification list even if you don't use Red Hat. They won't stop you from viewing it just because you don't use Red Hat.

#

i have interviewed several hundred
people in the united states in the
last several years. almost all of these
people have told me that stealing is
nothing more than a good business practice.

if u support red hat u are not supporting
business, u are supporting theft.

#

Just what is that supposed to mean?!? That's like saying don't support your local church because you will be supporting Satan.

#

Red-Hat has some serious issues with its LSB compliance (they even admit to using certain standard *nix directory heirarchy structure for purposes other then what they were originally intended, right on their website). It has the most issues on many forums in which software has to be modified to accomidate Red-Hat users, even though mostly all other distros don't have any issues with said software.

Installing from source on Red-Hat is a freaking nightmare. If there is no<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.rpm file, you are SOL with RedHat. Its custom files and non-compliant architecture causes too many problems when compiling from source. Where as SuSE can install LSB compliant<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.rpm's as well as from source with ease.

Of the 4 distros I have used (Slackware 3.6a-7.0; Red Hat 6.1; Debian 2.2.R6; SuSE 7.0,7.2,8.1) Red-Hat had the shortest life span due to it's compatibility and security issues (by security, I mean that it's custom config tools, etc. had too many security holes. I am not referring to 3rd party software, or what services were turned on from the "box" install...that falls on the administrator for any distro to turn off/fix).

The only problem SuSE has is with their not so robust standard update tool (YOU). However, the apt4rpm for SuSE is quite nice, but is seperate from the distro set.

#

Since there is no set standard for Linux, though there does seem to be defacto standards for many of the components, there really isn't anything to base an opinion on other than my own experiance in trying to implement some internal standards for deploying Linux internally and for my clients. What I've found is that this is impossible to do unless I hire some linux gurus and create my own distro.

From the server side of things it's not really necessary as any mature distro will work fine unless you're getting into hardcore stuff that you wouldn't use Linux for anyway. The real problem is in the desktop area. As a consultant to companies all over southern California I'm still not in the position where I can recomend any linux desktop for any reason at all. Neither KDE or Gnome are really adequate desktop environments in a business setting. While Desktop/LX and Lindows have make strides in the right direction, businesses have needs that are simply not addressed.

A business desktop environment needs to have one thing above all else to make it cost effective from a management and administrative point of view. Single user login to linux/unix, windows, and novell servers. Now, I have an IBM ThinkPad 600 that I use for testing. The first thing a distro has to do to pass my test is to install on this machine and work with the hardware. This ThinkPad has a Hawking CB102 Cardbus adapter. So far not one disto available for download that touts itself as a desktop environment has successfully installed and found all the hardware. Only one of them were able to support the nic, and none of them support the Crystal Audio sound hardware.

These are just some of the problems. There is also the problem of users. When I install Linux I want to find Netscape, not Mozilla. While for me personally it doesn't make much difference, for the office user, who is not only a linux novice, but seems to be a thought novice as well, seeing something they've never heard of before causes panic. The office suite issue is bad enough, but once they get into it the panic goes away. The biggest problem wiht linux right now as a desktop environment is that it's designed to be used by the people that created it. There seems to be no thought given to the end user who does not, and is not going to, have the time to read 10,000 pages of man pages and documentation to figure out how to do something.

Documentation is available, but no one seems to understand the importnace of consiceness. A person that does what I do simply does not have the time to go through all of that. Asking questions of a lot of linux people is difficult becuase you get no answer, or you get "it's in the faq", or "read this" with a link to some 500 page document that goes around in a lot of technical circles before getting to the point. Then, once you have the proper syntax, or so you think, to do what you want to do, it is not an uncommon thing to end up with an "unknown command" or "unknown option" error when you try it.

The linux community needs to start considering their audience. Where's the novell client support? I found one, but it kept complaining about this dependency or that dependency and never did end up working. While I can now deploy linux servers for a lot of different applications, web, ftp, mail, database, etc., I can't use it for the desk top. I have a lot of clients who would really like to look at linux as a desktop environment but there are just too many weaknesses to overcome. I could do it, but I don't have the 1000's of hours it would take, and hiring developers would negate the cost benefit to my clients.

Someone out there needs to build a desktop environment that can be installed and used by the typical idiot office worker. It has to have easily applied interfaces for legacy PC networking system. It has to have Netscape, NOT Mozilla. It has to recognize all the major hardware configurations you're likely to find in a PC build since 1996. It has to either have a complete rebuild of KDE or Gnome, or a new GUI all together. The user or admin should NEVER have to go out and look for some ?lib.* or whatever in order to install an application. It has to omit stuff like apache, mysql, and sendmail. These things do not belong on a business workstation. OpenOffice or StarOffice are fine. I can solve those problems with some training. I just don't want to have to teach people C or Perl in order for them to use the system.

Right now the Linux community is more like Microsoft than I could have imagined. Everyone want's me to do things their way. Why the hell do you think I want to get away from Microsoft to begin with? The first guy out there that stops making Linux desktop distros for the linux user, and starts making them for the idiot office worker will quicly become the defacto linux standard on the desktop. When that happens, I know of at least 3000 desktops that will be ready for it. Hell, they're already ready for it. Too bad it doesn't exist. I could put together the a team to do it, but I'd rather not. That's not what I do.

#

You have to compare RH8.0 with Suse8.1, not RH6.1 with Suse8.1

#

This is true, I had thought about the age of Red Hat 6.1 a little later. However, most of my SuSE experience is with 7.0 (2 years on my laptop and desktop) and only 8.1 as of more recent (~3 months). So, most of my thoughts stem from the earlier version of SuSE, too. So, it wasn't all that unbalanced<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^)

However, the directory architecture issues with RedHat when compiling from source I experienced on one of the workstations at work. 1 out of only 5 programs compiled and ran in Redhat 8.0. I put the same programs on SuSE 8.1 (my laptop) and installed and ran them flawlessly. Now I take my laptop to work till this project is over<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:^)

#

First of all you can in no way compare Red Hat 6.1 with Red Hat 8.0 or with SuSe 8.0, although Red Hat 6.1 was a very good server OS.

Second of all, you are right about apt-get for RPM (and Synaptic graphical interface). Thanks to Debian for the great package management system to shoehorn around RPM. Luckily this is also a great tool for Red Hat. Makes upgrades and installing good software very easy. See <A HREF="http://voidmain.kicks-ass.net/redhat/redhat_8_apt-get_must_have.html">apt-get for Red Hat</a kicks-ass.net>

#

Read and learn!
https://www.redhat.com/software/linux/features/
http://www.linuxbase.org/

#

They honestly certified themself!

#

Redhat.com is a member of linuxbase.org, redhat can not just certified itself!

#

For recent years, I'm been a subscriber and a
customer of Mandrakesoft, I' had Mandrake Gaming Edition 8.1, to Mandrake Linux PowerPack edition 8.2, both with lot's of applications, and some interesting commercial demo applications.


  I enjoyed the KDE interface before, with it's fully customizable settings, and lot's of add-ons, I really like Mandrake 8.2 before, I had long time using it first, but when used it long enough,

  I will suddenly realize that it's more like a draft beta operating system, more like Windows 97 Memphis, and I've seen KDE control center to be rediculously detailed, too much preferences with one purpose?

  and too much applications, with only one purpose also, and every program installed under Mandrake 8.2 are against each other,

  I end up using one editing program, and another program installed also does the same work, it's pointless,

  so I've tried and installed RedHat 8.0 -- the Humble, easy, but powerfull operating system, and I've been admired by it's stableness and simplicity, not too much minimalistic, but a simple, and very practical OS, Redhat 8.0 really makes my life more easier compared to Mandrake 8.2.

#

Please, don't use Redhat. See post the "Not Redhat!!!" post above. Redhat is an evil company.

#

Mandrake 9.0

After using redhat and mandrake for some time,
Mandrake is the choice OS for home and mobile computing.

Urpmi gives a big + to mandrake and makes it very easy to install, remove and update thousands of apps.

#