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'On Open Source Procurement Policies'

By on May 01, 2003 (8:00:00 AM)

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- by Tony Stanco -
Editor's note: This is the (lightly edited) transcript of a presentation Tony Stanco, Director of the Center of Open Source & Government, and Associate Director of the Cyber Security Policy and Research Institute at The George Washington University, made at a meeting of the New York City Council's Select Committee on Technology in Government on April 29, 2003.

Good Morning, Chairperson Brewer and members of the Council. I am Tony Stanco, Director of the Center of Open Source & Government, and Associate Director of the Cyber Security Policy and Research Institute at The George Washington University.

It is a special pleasure to appear before you to speak on Open Source procurement policies. This is a very timely topic being looked at by a number of governments around the world. Governments ranging from Texas and Oregon to Peru, India, China, U.K., Germany, France and the U.S. Federal government are all seriously analyzing Open Source procurement policies. As I am sure you are aware, or you will shortly find out, this is a very politicized issue with multi-billion dollar companies and their non-profit associates actively trying to disparage the Open Source model. The Open Source side doesn't have the money to hire lobbyists and salesmen to constantly knock on the doors of government officials to give their side of the story. So, opportunities like this where both sides are allowed to speak openly and equally are very welcome.

One question that is seldom asked is, "How can Open Source possibly be giving multi-billion dollar companies so much competition that they feel they need to actively dissuade government officials from even thinking of using Open Source software?" This is not an idle question. Open Source doesn't have lobbyists or marketers or ad men to promote its software. So, to say that governments shouldn't have rules to consider Open Source software, as Open Source opponents often do, takes away the only avenue that Open Source has to really reach government. The Open Source sales model is fundamentally "pull" model, where enlightened procurement officers need to know enough to ask about Open Source in the first place. There is no "push" model of sales in Open Source like that employed by the multi-billion dollar companies with their legions of salesmen, ad men, and lobbyists. In fact, the average large software company is 1/3 software developers, and 2/3 salesmen, marketers, management, apologists, and lawyers. So, a very apt question is -- if their software is so good and they have an extra 2 people for every one developer pushing it, why is it that they try so hard to impede government officials from making side-by-side comparisons? You would think they would be anxious to have procurement rules that require such comparisons so that they can show how much better their very expense software is.

But they don't do that. Instead, they descend on any government official who tries to introduce a law or regulation that requires procurement officers to "consider using Open Source software when acquiring new software," as the Oregon House bill merely does.

This is a very subtle silencing of Open Source. It is supremely disingenuous, and violates the fundamental principle of a free market: fully informed decision-making. Why shouldn't procurement officers be asked to consider Open Source software? In fact, having such rules is only doing what The President's Information Technology Advisory Committee (PITAC) recommended should be done to level the playing field. In its October 2000 Report to the President on "Developing Open Source Software to Advance High End Computing," the committee said, "a 'level playing field' must be created within the government procurement process to facilitate Open Source development." Notice the use of the word "must" in that recommendation.

At this point, I want to leave the procedural fairness issues of having Open Source considered equally by procurement officers, and move on to what I see as the substantive issues that make Open Source software considerably better than traditional proprietary software for government use. I will cover these under the headings of 1. Democratic Implications, 2. Privacy, 3. Cost, 4. Research and Development/Technology Transfer, 5. Education, 6. Job Creation, and 7. Security.

Democratic Implications

Governments are special entities and their functions and operations can be at odds with proprietary software applications that are developed for multiple purposes. Governments have special obligations to protect the integrity, confidentiality and accessibility of public information throughout time like no other entity in society. Therefore, storing and retrieving government data through secret and proprietary data formats tied to a single provider is especially problematic, since the usability, maintenance and permanence of government data should not depend on the goodwill or financial viability of commercial suppliers.

Furthermore, citizens have a right to transparency in public acts, which may be hampered by secret, proprietary software. A clear example of this is e-voting software. I expect no one would seriously defend the right of proprietary software companies to prevent political candidates from inspecting the software that tallies the votes in elections. There are many other public acts that fall into the same category. So many, in fact, that the onus should rightly be placed on companies to justify the use of proprietary software in purely governmental settings.

Privacy

There is a constitutional right to privacy, and it is incumbent on government to set rules to protect the privacy of its citizens. Software that may transmit private data to, or allow control and modification of computer systems by, third parties without the explicit consent of the user is a violation of the citizen's right to privacy. It is disingenuous to argue, as Open Source opponents often do, that the market will sufficiently protect the rights of citizens in these circumstances. Software follows the principle of "network effects" where, after a certain tipping point, all consumers lose their freedom of choice and are herded into using the same product for the sake of interoperability. The existence of monopoly situations in software also work to restrict freedom of choice, further limiting the protective effects of a purely market-based solution. As a result, government intervention is appropriate to protect the privacy rights of its citizens.

Cost

On Tuesday, April 15, 2003 Mayor Bloomberg, facing a budget gap of $3.4 billion, warned that the city may have to lay off up to 10,000 city employees on top of the 4,500 previously announced job cuts. This at a time when the City of New York spends almost $750 million each year on information technology.

It is an anomaly that software prices are increasing during the worst IT slump in decades, but it is happening, because with proprietary software there are negative network effects and powerful monopolies that can extract ever-increasing monopoly rents even as many others are facing severe economic distress.

Could software costs be cut, instead of government jobs, in an effort to reduce the deficit? It is a question that should at least be investigated. Replacing some proprietary software products with free, Open Source counterparts would obviously eliminate the licensing costs of those products. There are reports from people who testified at the Oregon Open Source hearing that some school districts saved so much money by using Open Source software that they could afford to hire additional teachers.

Google and Amazon serve as examples of leading IT companies that saved money in the real world with Open Source software. Why couldn't government do the same thing?

Google is powered by over 10,000 Linux servers and its founder said that Linux was chosen because it "offers the best price-for-performance ratio."

In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission (where I happened to work for almost 6 years as a securities attorney before joining George Washington University), Amazon said it was able to cut technology expenses by about 25 percent, from $71 million to $54 million. The reduction was attributed to a large degree to Amazon's migration to a Linux-based technology platform that utilizes a less-costly technology infrastructure.

Research and Development/Technology Transfer

The Open Source method is analogous to the scientific method, where researchers share information and results, and are not hampered by having to constantly "reinvent the wheel." Additionally, Open Source researchers do not have to deal with expensive and restrictive licensing terms, which arbitrarily preclude the involvement of talented people. This creates a very low threshold to get into the research and development of projects, allowing smaller schools and even industrious individuals to participate.

It is acknowledged within the R & D community that non-Open licenses can hinder technology transfer, because the license holder controls what gets done with the research. Sometimes, those licenses preclude sharing or even showing others the results of the research. Other times, the license holder decides not to implement the R & D themselves , and refuses to let anyone else to do so, either. As a result, the research gets buried, forgotten and never used. This doesn't happen with Open Source.

Education

Open Source is a superior way to educate the next generation of IT professionals. With Open Source, the developers see and study the actual code running real world systems, rather than working with stripped-down "toys" designed merely for educational purposes. Many developers have recounted that they learn best by trying and watching what happens in the program as it runs. This should not be surprising at all, since this was how developers learned the craft before the 1980s when the closed software industry arose. Open Source is just returning software to its free and open roots.

Also, it should be noted that Open Source software development is known to be more modular and more readily understandable from its very structure. It is developed in this organized way, because otherwise people would not be able to contribute effectively to the code base, since oftentimes there is no documentation but the code itself to study. As a result, self-education by looking at the code is an important feature of Open Source that is "baked-in" to the development model itself. For the lawyers in the audience this is similar to the "case method" of learning law, where struggling with real cases is generally expected to create better lawyers. The theory is that in studying the hard cases, there is a transcendent moment when the veil of utter confusion over most first year students is lifted as the patterns and logic of the cases suddenly, magically emerges. It is said that young software developers experience the same sort of thing in studying the complexity of Open Source programs and are, thereby, made better developers for enduring that challenge.

It should also be noted that Open Source has marvelous outreach programs run by community groups in most cities around the world. It is very common for teenagers, IT students and experienced professionals to attend free Open Source events to share ideas, software and programming skills. There are a number of these groups in New York City, which itself has a large and vibrant Open Source community.

Job Creation

The business model for Open Source software is that of a specialized services industry, similar to law, medicine or engineering. As a result, moving government systems to Open Source software means that there will be more local, high-paying IT jobs for integrators and consultants in New York City's own Silicon Alley. Furthermore, using government procurement to help create New York-based Open Source consulting jobs has a spin-off economic multiplier effect that will benefit many other New York residents, too. Software dollars that are kept in New York, and not paid to out-of-state companies, will obviously increase the city's and state's tax base.

Security

The open secret in the defense and intelligence communities around the world is that Open Source is the preferred software for secure systems. These groups don't trust software that they can't study and compile themselves, because of concerns over bugs and "spyware," and therefore would rather use Open Source software for their sensitive and classified systems.

Quoting from the Executive Summary of the January 2003 Mitre Report called the "Use of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) in the U.S. Department of Defense":

"The main conclusion of the analysis was that FOSS plays a more critical role in the DoD than has generally been recognized. FOSS applications are most important in four broad areas: Infrastructure Support, Software Development, Security, and Research. One unexpected result was the degree to which Security depends on FOSS. Banning FOSS would remove certain types of Infrastructure components that currently help support network security. It would also limit DoD access to, and overall expertise in, the use of powerful FOSS analysis and detection applications that hostile groups could use to help stage cyberattacks. Finally, it would remove the demonstrated ability of FOSS applications to be updated rapidly in response to new types of cyberattack. Taken together, these factors imply that banning FOSS would have immediate, broad, and strongly negative impacts on the ability of many sensitive and security-focused DoD groups to defend against cyberattack."

This concludes my testimony today. I would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have.

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on 'On Open Source Procurement Policies'

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Government Document Access Surtax

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 06:16 PM
Great work Tony,

        You forgot to mention, using proprietary document formats amount to a "government document access surtax" that must be paid by each taxpayer who wants to communicate with their elected officials/agencies. What's worse is the double whammy effect it creates. Not only is the government sending tax payer dollars out of the community for software licenses, but each and every taxpayer must also send a portion of their net income out of the community for licenses that enable them to read these proprietary documents.

          Any financial impact studies that would leave this surtax out would be seriously skewed.

          Logic follows, the benefits realized by switching to Free Open Source software would also have a double whammy effect. In addition to the government savings you mentioned, Each taxpayer would in effect get a tax reduction. Increasing their disposable income that could also be spent/kept in the community.

          You also didn't mention the importance of assuring that future hardware purchases should be compatable (supported) with any alternate Free Open Source applications/platforms they might choose to use. All these efforts are moot if it won't run on their hardware!


    "BAN THE GOVERNMENT DOCUMENT ACCESS SURTAX"

ME....

           

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The hardware Problem can be fixed with a law

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 08:57 PM
All the law has to say is that hardware interface drivers have to be opensource or complete access specs has to be release to opensource develops.

The opensource teams are perfectly able to build drivers if they have the infomation so it is really simple to fix. Note stealing low level hardware tricks would show up quicker too.

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Re:The hardware Problem can be fixed with a law

Posted by: biera13 on May 01, 2003 10:04 PM
what "opensource teams" ? what incentives do "opensource teams" have to write drivers for new hardware ?

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Re:The hardware Problem can be fixed with a law

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 01:21 AM
If there aren't any OSS drivers for a piece of hardware, then you cannot use it (or at least its advanced features) under OSS. Since the hardware market is VERY competative, unlike the software markets at the moment, there is a tremendous rate of improvements in hardware, and everyone wants to use the new, better kit.

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Re:Government Document Access Surtax

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 09:48 PM
What a bunch of bunk. While I'm not particularly fond of proprietary formats, there are readers for said documents that are free.

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Re:Government Document Access Surtax

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 10:50 PM
There are? Ones that read and write the format at 100% compatibility?

Sure, if you only do PDFs or OpenOffice documents. But most places use Microsoft Office documents, and despite the fact that OpenOffice does MSFT Office about 99%, there's still 1% left that isn't done. If, for instance, a character is accidentally left off because it's in this 1%, that can potentially be the difference between being sued and not.

It's unforgivable to use 99%-compatible if there are 100% open standards out there.

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Re:Government Document Access Surtax

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 11:40 PM
Also, these free readers are typically only supplied for one or two of the most popular operating systems. If you are running an OS that isn't pre-installed on computers at CompUSA, you are probably out of luck.

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Open Source: Let's Make it Work for government

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 08:53 PM
Great Job! Open Source software for masses!We need to promote open source software more actively!!

Great job, yet again!

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Some points I would've mentioned

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 09:15 PM
Proprietary software vendors look to sell product, and keep selling iterations of that product.

Whenever possible, proprietary software vendors will purposefully obsolete their previous versions. Perfect case in point is Microsoft, but almost all engage in it to some degree.

Secondly, and this is especially important to government since, as you point out, they're in it for the long haul, proprietary software vendors die. All the time. I know an artist who has been using computers for 10+ years, and like a good professional who depends on computers, he made frequent backups and kept them. One day he was taking a trip down memory lane and went through all of his backups. He was horrified to learn that a great deal of his work was unusable because the software which created it no longer exists, and all he has is some proprietary data formats that he doesn't know how to deal with. No doubt much of his work will be lost forever. So much for making backups.

Finally, interoperability is the last thing a proprietary software vendor wants. In the bottom line interoperability is treated as a gift to the competitor. Open source is interoperable by definition.

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Re:Some points I would've mentioned

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 10:24 PM

To complete the thought on planned obsolensence...

Take a Word processor - for most people, there is no need to upgrade a word processor. There won't be any new features that will come out that you will need. But a proprietary company can you push you along because they can change the file format and more importantly drop support for the older version. That means shoudl you have a bug, it won't get fixed except by upgrading.

Look at the Open Source side now - changes to underlying document formats would be shunned as people want compatibility. They would only be undertaken with extreme thought that produced a need to do so. Bugs would be fixed almost as fast as tehy were disovered... So the user chooses to upgrade to fix a problem (or potential problem), not because support will evaporate or the document format would be changing on a whim.

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Living in NYC

Posted by: nutate on May 01, 2003 10:37 PM
As an NYC resident is there anyone I can contact to voice my support for this?

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Re:Living in NYC

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 03:20 AM
I'm sure there's a listing for the city council in the "government" section of your phone book. Call them and see who the councillor is for your neighborhood, then go from there.

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Re:Living in NYC

Posted by: nutate on May 03, 2003 11:00 AM
There's also ny pirg, etc. I was just wondering if there was a coordinated point o' entry.

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Re:Living in NYC

Posted by: nutate on May 03, 2003 11:07 AM
The nyc city council website lists only the chairperson of the select committee on technology.
-Rich

link: http://www.council.nyc.ny.us/committees/index.cfm<nobr>?<wbr></nobr> page=committeedetails&Committee_id=106
(server's running Redhat<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) )

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Open Source in The Workplace

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 11:02 PM
The funny thing is that all these stats have been done time and again and tech workers know that open source has the edge in the tech sector (but not the desktop). I even work for a company whose entire business relys on Microsoft and in 2 months time have saved them almost $10,000 by going with open source solutions; I also was able to help them get rid of contractors that they relied upon heavily to maintain their current products and apps.

According to Netcraft.com, even Microsoft uses Linux and FreeBSD servers for their servers that need to be more stable. And over 60% of the web uses Apache... an open source web server (in comparison to IIS, Microsofts web server, which is only used by 27%).

Aside from that, open source ALWAYS does it's best to be cross platform compatible, Microsoft does not. I can get Apache, Star Office, GIMP and many other open source pieces of software to work equally well on my Linux machine as I can on my Windows machine insuring compatibility over different platforms. Plus a huge developer community, free source code and scripts, dependability, etc... the list goes on and on why open source has become the answer and not the problem.

Companies that stifle innovation and monopolize are the problem, not open source.

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And Microsoft said...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 01, 2003 11:21 PM
I noticed that Microsoft attended this shindig. I'd be interested to hear what they said too and whether the decision-makers found any of what they said compelling.

Tony articulates the key points very well. Nicely done!

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Nice that this hearing was a secret

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 03:34 AM
And a special thanks to Tony Stanco for keeping this hearing secret between him and his buddies in the collective, and not issuing a heads up to the community.

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Re:Nice that this hearing was a secret

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 03:41 AM
That was my thought exactly. NY Free Software groups have been pounding on this for months, and Stanco thinks he's done something we hadn't already done?

What a jerk

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yeah right

Posted by: smitty45 on May 02, 2003 04:33 AM
not this again. if other people/groups had their own presentation to give, why weren't they at the New York City Council giving it ?

maybe it's because they were too busy bitching about not getting enough publicity.

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I live in NYC, watch council hearings, no notice

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 04:47 AM
I live in NYC. I watch the council hearings on cable. I especially watch and make notes of when there are hearings for the agencies in charge of technology.

I saw no notice of this hearing.

Is it too much to ask Tony Stanco to send a simple email out, giving a heads up to this meeting? Is this too much to ask? Or a simple post on Newsforge, which anyone can do?

Your post shows that you have some axe to grind. I think that giving a heads up is not too much to ask. Had this been given, I would have been in the audience of the hearing, and I may have asked to testify. And if my council rep was on that panel, I definitely would have asked to testify. Yet I missed any notice of the hearing. My fault. But if a heads up would have been given to any of the NYC open source groups, whose mailing lists I'm on most of, or to Newsforge, or to Slashdot, or to any one of dozens of other tech news web sites, I would have seen it, and I would have participated.

Upset that others are bitching that Tony Stanco held the spotlight? Your priorities are misplaced. The more open source advocates that can show up, testify, pack the audience, talk with their reps after the hearing, schedule in person meetings in their offices afterwards when the topic is fresh in their minds, the better.

Or don't you believe this?

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Re:I live in NYC, watch council hearings, no notic

Posted by: smitty45 on May 02, 2003 05:05 AM
no, i do believe that. but after seeing the amount of whining about Stanco about eGovOS on this board awhile back, i can't say i'm surprised.

the schedule for the hearings are here:
http://www.council.nyc.ny.us/schedule/index.cfm

what i'm saying is...instead of whining about Stanco...which obviously a lot of people in NY love to do, why didn't other groups schedule to present a case ?

i feel like every time i turn around, any mention of Stanco is surrounded by people who care more about *him* making the case for FOSS, than any care about whether his was a good case.

maybe it's just that people love to hate/blame the guy, and they love bitching about it. i guess that's it.

i don't even live in NYC, i live in SF. and from here, it looks like a bunch of little kids fighting to ride a pony. it looks ridiculous, and i'm embarrased that people like that "represent" the FOSS community.

i have no axe to grind, just tired of seeing whining about something that was pretty good.

no matter who is was that made the presentation, nothing changes that someone stood up and made a case for FOSS. it's alot better than no one doing it.

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Tony Stanco afraid or ashamed of FOSS community?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 04:38 AM
Why didn't Tony Stanco give a heads up to the community on this meeting? By his own testimony, NYC is home to:

There are a number of these groups in New York City, which itself has a large and vibrant Open Source community.


So what is it? Is Tony Stanco afraid of sharing his spotlight? Is Tony Stanco ashamed of the FOSS community?

Why didn't Tony Stanco send a heads up to the large and vibrant open source community in NYC? Is there something that Tony Stanco didn't want said at the hearing? Is he having trouble with Pine? Kmail? Ximian? Maybe his dog ate his outbox?

What can Tony Stanco possibly be afraid of, from the large and vibrant open source community?

Is it Tony Stanco's view that fewer open source community representatives are better at a NYC council hearing?

Lower turnout is a better indicator of interest?

Lower turnout is a better message to send to the NYC council?

Is Tony Stanco's view of open source a one man show?

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Re:Tony Stanco afraid or ashamed of FOSS community

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 04:40 AM
maybe he thought that they would foam at the
mouth or yell Death to Softy.

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Re:Tony Stanco afraid or ashamed of FOSS community

Posted by: smitty45 on May 02, 2003 04:47 AM
who cares why he didn't invite anyone.
seriously. what does it matter ?

maybe a better question is...why is it that Tony Stanco was the only one to think of making a presentation ?

is it because groups like the NYC FS can't make presentations ?

does the NYC FS group think that they're better off criticizing other people than making presentations themselves ?

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Re:Tony Stanco afraid or ashamed of FOSS community

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 05:00 AM
Who cares why he didn't issue a heads up?

What does it matter?


If this is beyond your comprehension, you will never understand.

And I checked your post history. I hope others do also, before bothering to respond to you. What I get from reading your post history:

You are a troll. Or are a very lonely person.

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Re:Tony Stanco afraid or ashamed of FOSS community

Posted by: smitty45 on May 02, 2003 05:40 AM
nope, not a troll, and not lonely at all. i can say, at least i *have* a post history.

just someone who was annoyed. but then again, like i said, i don't live in NYC, and obviously don't know the background like you do, so maybe you have good reason to not like Stanco.

not knowing either Stanco or you, i honestly don't care.

all i can say is that i hope that the NY City Council listened and considers the presentation.

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Rabid dogs don't like Tony Stanco

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 03, 2003 12:04 AM
so maybe you have good reason to not like Stanco.

I do know Tony and he is not trying to take the spotlight or to keep FOSS advocates from attending "secret" meetings. He is trying to present well reasoned arguements to government officials on why they should be taking free and open source software more seriously. Had he started his speach by saying "Linux Rocks and and Microsoft Sucks", I dare say he would have been dismissed as a zealot. NY City managers were given a good, well reasoned explaination for why they should look beyond the closed source software world. Let's hope they got the message.

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Pricing not open source

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 03:50 AM
Most of these arguments have nothing to do with open source, but instead relate to software pricing. Open source is not necessarily free, for example MySQL, JBoss, and eZ systems all charge depending on a commercial organization's usage of their software. Low cost competitors such as Caucho's Resin is often cheaper than a comparative JBoss installation for a J2EE server. The arguments in this article would support purchasing Resin over JBoss, even though it is not open source.

Open source is a competitor to commercial software, and it is expected in free market economics for a supplier to disuade the buyer from selecting or considering a competitor.

Open source is a real driver for change in this industry, and economic theory dictates that software revenue will increase as open source is more widely adopted. Per economic theory, open source is not a replacement but typically a complementary purchase.

For example, Oracle runs on linux. This is a crude analysis, but because a buyer does not have to purchase an operating system license, the buyer could use the same budget to purchase more Oracle software. The buyer receives more value for that same dollar, thereby (in economic theory terms) leading to the buyer purchasing more Oracle software. In the end, the amount of money that buyer spent on software has increased.

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Re:Pricing not open source

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 11:05 PM
Economic theory dictates software sales would increase? If Oracle promotes running on Linux, how long before some people start asking "Since Open Source is good for the Operating System... why not the database as well?"

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The unions are the key to FOSS in NYC

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 04:24 AM
The unions are the key to FOSS in NYC.

They need to be shown how/what FOSS is.

They need to be shown how much NYC is wasting on proprietary software,audit compliance, and everything related.

And they need to be shown how many jobs are being replaced because of the wasted money being sent to ms instead of being paid to teachers, firemen, policemen, other first responders, and other critical city workers.

Unions are the key. If the community can get the unions to pick up the fight, FOSS will be a widespread reality in NYC, and ms won't know what hit them. If the unions are not shown the light, and they don't join the fight to save critical monies in NYC, then FOSS will go nowhere because of the deals that ms will throw at NYC to keep NYC as part of the collective.

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Re:The unions are the key to FOSS in NYC

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2003 04:45 AM
Smart comment.
Those who are in the progressive camp seem to me
to be a natural fit for OSS.
Yet, I sometimes hesitate becuase if every radical group started to use Linux they would
say.
Linux _is_ a commie plot after all.
You are with Microsoft or against them.
Still the more groups and organizations that use OSS the better.

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