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I am not sure we are talking about open source here?

Are Java or Java Desktop or Star Office open source?

An interesting article, but I do believe that there are other distribution and terminal clients that achieve a similar end - and some of them don't cost as much (or at all!)

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Agree, interesting but the following is a turn off:

"The price, $50 per seat per year, including updates and support is attractive, especially if Sun's $100/seat Java Enterprise System lives up to its goal of allowing 2000+ users to be administered by a single IT worker."

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Please. People have to eat. If it gets the job done then $50 a seat per year is not bad at all. Consider that a couple hours of downtime costs more than the $50 per seat per year and it looks like a good deal. Don't be cheap. Now I'm not saying you should buy from Sun but if your using the software you should find someway to contribute back. Either by developing or paying a company that hires Linux hackers. Don't be cheap. Even RMS said that if your going to go through the trouble of distributing your sources you might as well get payed for it. And he did when he distributed his GNU tools for $150 a pop. People have to get out of their heads that Linux is free as in beer. It is lowcost but somewhere down the line a developer needs to survive.

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Cheapskate

I freely donate $60US/year to Debian to help continue providing me with superiour software. If Sun's desktop meets my needs, $50US would be a bargain.

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I think that your $60 a year to Debain is much better spent. By supporting GPL(or similarly licensed) software you are supporting a trickle down development effect where the source can be used for other projects. $50/yr/seat to Sun only helps Sun's bottom line and doesn't necessarily
contribute to the good of all. Just my 2cents. I contribute to several GPL projects and the EFF and feel that it's money well spent. Kudos to you for your Debian contribution. Hopefully more people will realise that they should pay for 'free' software.

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$50 per year is less than many companies spend on coffee/per worker each year. If people don't think open source is worth paying money for, in some manner, it can never compete because it will never have people who can afford to do it full time.

Do you think so little of your computer environment that it isn't worth what you spend on coffee?

BV

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Well, let's see, the gnu utilities, Linux Kernel, GNOME. Those are open source just to name a few.

StarOffice is the commerical version (with support and extra goodies) of the open sourced OpenOffice.Org Office Suite.

Java is open spec, but not open source.

Also what you're getting here from Sun's Java Desktop is a polished end user environment and the potential of ease of management from a central location. Besides most businesses want support and a "throat to choke" for their IT Systems. Why should the linux desktop be any different?

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Well, that depends on what you call open source. The JDK for Linux is definitely Open Source. Its not GPL, however. It is derived on the Sun Community license like NetBeans/Forte and other such stuff.

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Java is MORE open source than most linux (read GPL) software. It is supported by most of the open source community (like Apache) at the JCP (jcp.org). You can join the JCP, you can download the source, you can contribute patches and/or entire new functionality through the JCP.

Unlike GPL however, you can use it for personal OR commercial. In that respect, it is more like BSD than GPL. Since GPL restricts the usage, I would say that the Java platform is MORE open source.

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The GPL doesn't limit commercial use.

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How much of this is Java (runs in a JVM)? Or does it come with a JVM and 'Java' just tacked on for marketing purposes?

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It runs GNOME but I would assume also tightly integrates Java. I would assume there are a couple of Java utilities in it.

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Hey cool, somebody finally went out on a limb and assumed a couple of things. Now that's what I call JOURNALISM!! Kick ass, VA.

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Many of Sun's Solaris admin tools are written in Java. I would assume that Sun has included them in this distribution.

Of course these are mostly not open source, but I don't expect Sun to produce a 100% open source distribution.

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Actually that's exactly what they've done. I'm quite certain that java is heavily involved, but in no way is it based on Java...it's based on Gnome with GTK+ (perhaps using the GTK+ bindings for Java?).

Java just sounds a lot sexier than Sun. I think it was a good move with the name.

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It has Sun's JRE pre-installed. You might not have noticed, but it is not present on Red Hat Linux, as it is freeware but not free software.

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Very exciting. I can't figure out why it took people so long to make a simple, foolproof and "just doing my work"-shielded environment for budget computers.

This effort shows part of the industry is finally ready to grow up.

Meanwhile I'll happily keep on using macs, but I am very glad usability and ease of use are gaining in the workplace.

I understand a lot of users don't want their OS to dumb down and think that easier systems (like OS X) are toys, but you must be really stupid or single-minded to think everyday workers (intelligent or not - computer literacy has nothing to do with IQ) want to know anything about their OS.

They want the damned thing to work for them.

You might want to know everything about your co-workers in your free time, but while the clock is running, you want them to perform and interact in a pleasant and professional manner. That's all a computer needs to do.

It's less than you'd expect, but as companies like Apple know - and others are finding out - it's actually more work to create just such an environment. In the end it's about people, not computers.

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Oh, shut the fsck up.

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I can't figure out why it took people so long to make a simple, foolproof and "just doing my work"-shielded environment for budget computers.

Same reason it takes so long to make a bug-free operating system. It is a hard job, and UI experts are as necessary as anyone else. We engineers always think that, because we can make a UI, we should. We can also sing, but that doesn't mean we should. Let the singers sing, and the UI folks design for us. And take them seriously.

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recently I saw on my local news a thing from Consumer Reports where they reviewed several computers, including WinXP, OSX, and Lindows.

One of the chief complaints against Lindows was inability to work with devices such as cameras, printers (mostly a complaint on it's configuration GUI), scanners, etc. They found it could handle email, word processing, and other basics just as good as any other machine, but getting things like those to work are very important for home users and some businesses (art studios, for instance).

How does this thing from Sun do in this respect?

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Sun's desktop is a thinclient buisness computer that will be used for little more than editing documents, sending e-mail and accessing databases. It is perfectly suited for this. Look to see more hardware issues being resolved by next year when projects that implement ZeroConf, end to end USB device detection and configuration and application/device integration will be matured.

Things take time and Linux on the desktop is only about 8 (Gnome being only 7) year old which is short time for the distance it has travled. It is basicly playing catchup right now but by 2005 should be surpassing propriatary desktops in certaint areas. The one great thing about the open source desktops is that 3rd party applications can be fully integrated. Though this has so far not been the case because the third parties were taking a look and see approch to Linux adoption, it looks like they are starting to come around. IBM already integrates websphere and DB2 with Linux, Novell will be integrating their entire line of products with the Gnome desktop and Sun looks like it is working to integrate Java into the Linux desktop. This is evidenced by both Madhatter and the fact that Java apps now can pick up and emulate GTK+ themes.

Time will tell but from my point of view it all looks good.

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I instlled Redhat 9 on my brother's computer and it had no problem operating his HP printer and digital camera. I have also used palm synchronization via the Evolution email client for several years.

I didn't have to do anything special to get this stuff to work, it just did. It was actually easier than windows as I didn't have to search around for drivers.

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That's news to me, as getting a Palm to sync to Evolution on RH8 requires a lot more effort than should be required.

Granted RH9 is a different story, but RH8 was only released last year, and not even the updates simplify Palm sync to Evolution.

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Thats good now tell me when you get 2000+ brothers and successfully install Redhat 9 and keep it all patched and updated. Your statement is totally irrelevant.

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I find all these real world statements insulting.

what is the real world exactly, and where do you think I live??
what do you mean when you say GNU/Linux is ready for the real world, was it being used in WonderLand all this time??

what is the percentage of the world that you need to qualify for the label real world??
I mean you'd think that NGOs, Universities and technology companies represent a large chunk of the world, GNU/Linux has been there from the begining, but obviously if it isn't some mega corp it isn't the real world.

the funny thing is the mega corps seem to be the organizations most devorced from the real world (.coms, enron, world.com etc.)

oh well, if thats the real world I prefer wonderland anyway.

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Fact: Not every user is a "power user". Not everyone who sits at a computer and types is capable of finding and fixing the problems that may (will) creep up. And not everyone is a programmer who can Use the Source, Luke(tm).

As the desktop landscape for Linux improves, as new features are implemented and integrated, we need a serious integrator for tying it all together. Sun Microsystems has been a major contributor for usability, not just for Mom and Pop, but also for those who must use the system in a "different" way. They have assisted in the development of GNOME as well, by porting it to Solaris. This process has helped weed out incompatibilities in the source code, making it more robust and portable overall.

Sun Microsystems has been a true pioneer (think Sun SPARC), unlike a lot of pre-Linux companies. (IBM has been a pioneer as well.) While they do care about their bottom line, we want them on our side. Without Sun Microsystems, we would be less well-off today, and Linux and GNOME would be considered "fringe" systems, hackers' toys, by more people and companies.

IBM has helped bring Linux servers to the enterprise, while Sun Microsystems has helped put Linux on the desktop. Both have shown that Linux is a real operating system, capable of supporting nearly any purpose between microbiology and rocket science. Kudos to both Sun Microsystems and IBM for their immense help.

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Fact: Not every user is a "power user". Not everyone who sits at a computer and types is capable of finding and fixing the problems that may (will) creep up. And not everyone is a programmer who can Use the Source, Luke(tm).

I don't believe that this was asserted by the person you responded to.

As the desktop landscape for Linux improves, as new features are implemented and integrated, we need a serious integrator for tying it all together. Sun Microsystems has been a major contributor for usability, not just for Mom and Pop, but also for those who must use the system in a "different" way.

Sorry, are you talking about the same company that shipped the JavaStation and is presumably still shipping CDE? Besides, the "Mom and Pop" market is the ultimate usability challenge and Sun has never come anywhere near tackling it.

They have assisted in the development of GNOME as well, by porting it to Solaris. This process has helped weed out incompatibilities in the source code, making it more robust and portable overall.

Sun have contributed to GNOME, but you've just highlighted arguably the most insignificant of those contributions.

Sun Microsystems has been a true pioneer (think Sun SPARC), unlike a lot of pre-Linux companies.

What? They adopted the Berkeley RISC architecture and commercialised it (eventually). There are plenty of companies who did very similar things that are now just footnotes in history.

(IBM has been a pioneer as well.) While they do care about their bottom line, we want them on our side. Without Sun Microsystems, we would be less well-off today, and Linux and GNOME would be considered "fringe" systems, hackers' toys, by more people and companies.

Oh yes, all those people running those mainstream Solaris desktops! Sun needs to crack the mainstream real soon because even their expensive servers' bizarre cases don't turn the suits on any more.

IBM has helped bring Linux servers to the enterprise, while Sun Microsystems has helped put Linux on the desktop.

I would suggest looking at KDE and those distributions that adopted it, then Ximian and Red Hat before even thinking about what Sun has done for Linux on the desktop.

Both have shown that Linux is a real operating system, capable of supporting nearly any purpose between microbiology and rocket science. Kudos to both Sun Microsystems and IBM for their immense help.

You overstate Sun's contribution to Linux. Perhaps yours is an ivory world.

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fact:
not every user isn't a power user, some users don't want their machines thinking for them and their systems dumbed down.

fact:
the real world is the only world out there, it is complex and contains many different types of real people.

fact:
GNU/Linux works for many real people in the real world in very real situations.

I'm not against a user friendly GNU/Linux even by the mac or ms standard (I probably wouldn't use it), but I refuse to accept that Free software was part of some imaginary world until SUN came in.

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'fact:
not every user isn't a power user, some users don't want their machines thinking for them and their systems dumbed down.'

Solution: Install Slackware. Shut the hell up.

'fact:
the real world is the only world out there, it is complex and contains many different types of real people.'

Good point. There are many more people who use a computer who can barely type than there are power users. You just made his point for him. There *is* a need for a one-size-fits-all business/home distribution, and it will never be exactly what you want it to be, as a power user. That's why there will continue to be 'fringe' systems. We are the minority.

'fact:
GNU/Linux works for many real people in the real world in very real situations.'

Yes, generally people who are involved in science, technology, etc. There are exceptions, some people in other professions look on computers as a hobby. Most people don't have the time to familiarize themselves with Linux, or just don't want to. I'm finishing up my Comp Sci degree at a very good US uni, but by comparison my mother is an elementary school teacher, and barely knows how to switch users in Windows XP, she can't personally justify putting the time in to learn, and as IT, you've got to learn to live with that fact.

Think of it this way, if I had to manually boot, start services, edit config files, and write shell scripts for the computer in my CAR, I'd be pretty pissed. Computers are a COMMODITY to most people, not a privilege. If it takes a system that 'thinks for' these people to get GNU/Linux in their hands, GREAT.

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Sun's Java with Linux.

Just like Java has to be in Windows

Linux does not need Java to be stable and good. How much work has Sun put in to GNOME. Is it really any different than GNOME in any other distribution?

You can set up PC's to boot from a NFS, if you really want - but a new hard drive can be had for around $50. With the money you save not paying lots of money to a proprietary OS setup you can hire some good sysadmins. If this Java Desktop works, and there is no need for configuration, etc... then it will be a good thing.

Let's see how it does in the real world - let's see how everything ties together in the corporate environment. Maybe it will work...maybe it won't. There is no way to tell, but to wait and see.

I don't believe this for a minute. Sorry, guys. Is GNOME that Sun has really that much better, technically, than the GNOME that comes with FreeBSD, or Debian, or SuSE, or Red Hat? Or is this just a new skin?

This is probably not going to go over very well. Sun appears to be joining the ranks of the SCO crowd.

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Tying service A and interface B so that they work together well. Not just that they work together on most Linux systems and FreeBSD, but also on Solaris, HP-UX, all the BSD's, AIX, and so on and so forth. Sun Microsystems has studied GNOME's usability more than anyone (that I know of) and provided a lot of feedback into the developer community, and GNOME on *all* platforms is richer for it.

Not to mention their foundational work in GNOME Accessibility. I was privileged to see it in action at Linux World Expo 2000, and it amazed me. It wasn't propeganda; it clearly wasn't ready for widespread deployment, and it had numerous glitches. Some controls didn't even respond to A11Y events yet. But I don't think anyone else was pouring energy into it the way Sun Microsystems was at the time.

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Wow - wonderful assessment vicar. Your comments have a very interesting, archaic, cathedral tone. In fact, its altogether familiar. And rediculous.

I will try to contain my point to saying that the "real world" mentality just wont't wash in discussions with people educated beyond grade 6. Don't you remember everybody in Grade 6 history laughing at the stupidity of early church clergy. The clergymen insisted that the only way to properly understand the Bible was through their enlightened guidance.

Years later, despite a superior education, you boldly declare that "...we need a serious integrator." This is funnier than the pious declarations of the clergy. At least their audience was arguablty stupid. Lets just parse your sentence a little. Who is we? I can only guess that you mean people who didn't pass or remember that grade 6 socials test. Serious systems integrator? There is NOTHING serious about Sun's commitment to open source. Sun can't sell any of their over-priced crap, so they are open-source squatting in a desperate attempt to piggyback the OS communitiy's success. Then, despite gracious acceptance into the family, they shaemlessly turn around to join in IP-bashing the contributions of their newfound supporters. Nice. Sounds much like SCO's history. We don't need friends like them. A fair argument is that we would have been better off without them and theirs in the first place.

I'm sure you have some killer counter-points. Those preists had their FUD of the day too. "You''ll face damnation!" Lol. And here's gus3 with his "...Without Sun Microsystems, we would be less well-off today, and Linux and GNOME would be considered "fringe" systems, hackers' toys, by more people and companies." Dude, SERIOUSLY. Did you pass that grade 6 test? Does gus mean Grade Under Six?

Lastly comes the appeal to old world sentimentality. You are 100% correct saying that "Sun Microsystems has been a true pioneer..." So was Christopher Columbus. In fact, so am I in my own right. Exactly what bearing does this have on this topic? Are you saying they were a starting company in technology, so we should all dumb down to give them a market chance? Are you truly naive enough to think that people are better off in intellectual darkness under the ironclad visions of a failing company?

No thanks.

Just like the printing press helped demolish that archaic view, linux is dispelling the myth that we ever needed the IP based businesses for technology. Our community seems to have done all right without Sun.

We are in the real world. Times change and the balance of power shifts. Historical lessons remain to avoid repeated mistakes. Welcome to the real world.

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The real world don't want (refuse) to be bothered with cryptic command line entries. Etc..

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The Real World(tm) likes cryptic (as in binary) Microsoft(r) Office(r) Documents, cryptic Microsoft(r) registries and cryptic viruses/worms.

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says who??
I exist and I like the command line, thousands of GNU/Linux like the command line and they're all real and they all exist.
they're part of the world like it or not and they're as real as anyone else.

what kind of argument is that??

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The number of people who prefer the command line are utterly insignificant next to the number of people who prefer the GUI.

That is what is meant by "the real world."

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insignificant to whome?? by what standard??

the number of people not using computers is much larger than the number of people using computers, does this make computers insignificant??

the number of jews are much smaller than the number of muslims, does this make jews utterly insignificant??

the number of people who don't know you is much larger than the number of people who do, hell you do not even exist.

lets face it insignificant is relative, since most GNU/Linux developers and most current users use the command line it cannot be insignificant.

since Free Software is not guided by a profit motive, anything can be significant it all depends on what the developer wants to do (hence welsh versions of gnome with only<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.5 million potential users etc.)

the real world is varied, the fantasy world of M$ and other mega corps is a uniform place where no one has an opinon or a taste.

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about making a command line<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

Would you rather have no URLs and simply click on buttons with your mouse? URLs are useful and - just like shells with command completion - when augmented by autocomplete, history, etc. they are very user friendly.

The commandline works well. It just doesn't work in Windows.

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yep know what you mean,we're always getting this

young people are not living in the real world
scientists are not living in the real world
artists are not living in the real world
hackers are not living in the real world
WTO demonstrators are not living in the real world
socialists are not living in the real world

who exactly is living in the real world?? management consultants and telephone sanitizers??

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Socialists and WTO protesters are most definitely living in the real world: they thing you can get something for nothing.

Your mention of NGOs tells me you're one of them. I pity you. I pity myself, because my taxes pay for you to live a comfortable life without doing anything remotely of any use to anyone.

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I like the command line, therefor I do not exist.

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I assume the "real" world refered to is the "mass market" world. The world lived in by people who go to disneyland, watch wrestling, man the check out aisle at wal mart, +20mm people who use AOL for internet access, drive 55 in the left hand lane, think MTV news is actually news, subscribe to US Weekly, and generally annoy you. Most all of these folks are computer users....the OS has to be simple enough for this real world to use. These folks can barely manage windows, 10 years and servel versions later....they are the ones that ask, what's a command line, what's a port. This is the real world you have to simplify for if $$ is to be made on a nice large scale.

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Sun is using GNOME to try to enter the desktop because they couldn't do it themselves. Look at the mess that Sun servers come with! Its barely as usable as Win3.1 and is uglier than something you'd find in an unflushed toilet.

Sun didn't invent the SPARC either. Outside consultants, mostly Russian designs. They didn't invent the OS, its been developed from original code, and they've hacked up on it.

Linux, without the money backing has created a trully original OS, is faster than Solaris, and now has a desktop (actually 2) that are top-notch. Sun ports it to Solaris for THEIR benefit. True, everyone wins, but thats the whole idea of open-source.

Its NOT Java desktop. Java is horrible technology that was improperly implemented. Gnome is good old C, so much for Java.

If Sun and Java are so wonderful, why doesn't Sun make a desktop with Java?

Headline: "Sun recompiles Gnome for Solaris and calls it JAVA, charges $50 per seat per year for a free desktop"

crcthought AT yahoo DOT com

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AOL Keyword: (type type type)

Google (type type type)

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I take it I have to be a tech writer in order to get the evaluation CD for this thing? I went to the site, but saw nowhere I could download it to give it a try.

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i just went to their website last month and signed up for "more information" and got an email last week saying that they're sending me a copy of it.

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Setting Defaults

    What's taking everyone so long figuring out that applications make files and they need a place to put them. The users documents folders should be set up with a basic user file tree from the install. If distro's bothered to set basic defaults for all the applications that they install, it's unavoidable. ie A cd ripping program has to put the mp3's somewhere.
Cascading Menus are a big plus
A couple of years ago an eighty year old woman client of mine was afraid to browse her Windows documents folder because it made her quote "desktop go away". She couldn't use the file picker because she couldn't grasp the concept of a "path". This puzzled me because she had no problem finding her games or other programs. The thing was, she liked and understood cascading menus, so I mounted her documents folder on a tool bar (quick browser in KDE)and she instantly found everything without a problem. I then added a toolbar for her desktop which made her network shares, CDROM and Floppy drive to cascade also. I've been using this set up as the default for everyones PC's ever since. It is wildly popular with kids and the elderly. It takes away nothing but adds alot of usability.

        I always wonder why Linux Distros don't make more use of the cascading menus. "Ark' Linux is the only Linux distro that I am aware of that sets the users documents folder in a Quick Browser on the taskbar "Kicker" by default. Nobody has cascading access to the network shares, cdrom and Floppy drives. Unless of course we tweek the skel ourselves.
So Who's impressed?
Sun puts a desktop together with a tiny bit of forethought and all at once their slided bread. We shouldn't start passing out the party favors when someone does the obvious. Then again distro builders should pause and say "gee, maybe we should do the obvious too".

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Have you ever seen the OS/2 WorkplaceShell? WPS enabled apps would create TEMPLATES for their data files in the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/Desktop/Templates folder. To create a document, you opened up the Templates folder and dragged-N-dropped the template of the type of doc you wanted to create and it would create a copy of that template. Not only would you think more about the DATA and what you wanted but you also created the doc in a familiar place which was related to your desktop. There was no need for applications popping up file browsing dialogs. No finding the application, creating your data, and then doing a Save-As to store your new file.

It was/is an amazing usability feature which nobody has copied since it was created in the early 1990's. I had created similar configurations on Windows 3.x way back when with a desktop replacement called HP New Wave. When customers used my new configuration, they all of a sudden "got it".

Great observation and implentation of using the cascading menus to simplify user access. That's one step in the right direction.

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Good info, I've never seen OS/2 but you describe the feature quite well.
The cascading menus are blazingly fast, a great help on slower computers because you don't have to open the file browser. One thing that is sorely missing in KDE though. There is no context (right click) menu when using the quick browser cascading menus. In windows you can use shell extensions in the context menus to launch apps or "send to" directly from the cascading menus. An example of this is being able right click on a folder of mp3's, click on "play in Winamp" and it will load the whole folder and start playing from the first song. Zoom player works the same way for movies and pictures (slide shows) I would like to duplicate this in KDE but haven't figured out how to enable the context menus in the quick browsers. Also, although I haven't worked it through completely, a quick browser on the task bar (sim linked) to the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/mnt directory allows you to cascade the contents of all drives. Mounting is still an extra step but quick disk takes care of it. I havent been able to get the network shares to cascade yet but I'm working on it.

          This setup also works very well with a remote control for a Home Theater PC. Thanks for responding.

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I hope the Gnome/KDE folks are reading this. This sounds like a great idea.

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Thanks! I hope to do a distro review of ARK Linux alpha9 soon showing a basic Cascading menus setup (how to) complete with pictures. Ark Linux is the only distro I am aware of that uses a cascading documents folder on the Kicker (task bar) by default so it wouldn't be inapropriate to mention extended use of them in a review. I've had correspondence(almost a year ago) with Lycoris' Wayne Cheek (Joes Brother)on this, they were initially quite excited but they haven't used them yet.In fact,their KDE customizations broke the cascading menus so they won't update in real time. You have to restart the X server for changes to show up on the menus. It's hard to do them right because all of your programs must be aware (add shell extensions) of them or they lose some of their value. Even Windows is tough because shell extentions are more of an after thought. Maybe if people see and like how they work, some of the missing details will get worked out by the coders. I can't code at this point, All I can do is write a decent shell script and even saying that is being kind to myself.
Not even one of my clients have complained about me adding this feature to their Windows PC's. I get huge amounts of KUDOS however and I use them myself. This feature is a must have if I'm to be able to convert My people to Linux. It's a tough give up.

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Over night I tested Ark Alpha 9 on five different machines. Couldn't finish the install up to rebooting to a desktop on any of them. Various different causes. All five ran Alpha 6 without a problem. MD5 check fine but I'm going to redownload it anyway. Disapointing

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Cascading menus are a usability. Look for Jakob Nielsen's work. Basically, with a cascading menu you have maybe a 16-px tall "corridor" to go through to get into the cascaded menu. If you go up or down, the menu will change to the next one up or down.

This is not to say that if it's easier for some users, they shouldn't use them. Individual usability is more important on the individual level. I'm just saying that's why cascading menus aren't more widely used by default.

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by "are a usability" I meant "are a usability problem."

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All my experiences with clients have shown that if they are set up properly, they are prefered. Do they need work? Yes. Do they have limitations? Yes, as does everything. At a resolution 800x600 in KDE, the quick browsers can handle 18 line items without spilling over to another menu.The default 30 line items is easily handled at 1024x768 with default fonts, and could handle more. A "click to open" each segment option would be great for better control. In windows, you can adjust the menu speed with tweakUI. If your going to ad hoc write off features due to usability shortcomings, all of Linux should be on top of your list. They both need work. I thought we came to these web sites to discuss and exchange ideas. Do you have anything to add that would help with the earlier mentioned (enabling right click context menus in KDE Kuick Browsers etc.)issues? Thanks for your input.

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Creating a task based interface that is customized to each business/user takes more than a simplified desktop. Don't get me wrong, I think it's the right first step, it creates a unified simple standard that promotes portability of "interface skills". However, computers still need to be a lot "smarter" to interface on more productive levels. I have more intelligent dialogs with my cat than with any computer that I have used so far.

If Sun really wants to make some serious changes they should figure out how to leverage the vast pool of internet connected developers/users. That collected pool of knowledge and intelligence is underused. Consider how many times the same algorithm is implemented! How many times are the same problems discovered and solved in isolation? How many times would you use a solution if you only knew it were available?

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Hello, all.

I think the Sun Java Desktop is a joke to gain desktop market share against Windows.
There is nothing orginally engineered by Sun. They just tweaked the Gnome desktop, put Mozilla, Open Office, etc... and claimed it a Sun Desktop. Come on. I don't want it even they give it away. Scott, were you smoking pots when you thought of this project?

Don't get me wrong. I am a big open-source and Linux advocate.
I think Sun is just taking a hyped wave of Linux popularity and hope to make money on it.

I propose that Sun builds a brand new Linux Distro and release it for free. You guys can do it.

Sincerely,

Linut

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Not ture. Sun built Open Office (aquired the company who originally built it, but funds it now). Sun has donated masive amounts to the Gnome project as well as many other open source projects. Sun has changed the software development world with its Java programming language like not see for years.

Yes the Java Desk Top wrappes up everything in a nice package, but how is this diffrent than RedHat, SuSE (which is under the Java Desktop) Mandrake, etc... All any of the Linux distros do is repackage the public source and sell it with come configuration tools!

And what is IBM, HP, and the likes doing with linux if not trying to take the hyped wave and make $$$$. I would contend Sun is a bit more honest about it.

#

In addition to this, according to the review Sun engineered what RH, Mandrake, Lycoris and other 'easy to use distros' did'nt achieve: clarity.

I can't wait to deploy this thing.

MJ

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"And what is IBM, HP, and the likes doing with linux if not trying to take the hyped wave and make $$$$. I would contend Sun is a bit more honest about it."

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=4596

Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one. [...]

#

There are actually quite a few features in JDS that are unique to Sun's distro, notably much of the Network Neighborhood stuff (substantially enhanced from Ximian's first attempt) and a good number of useful new panel applets (e.g. the Google search applet, LDAP lookup applet etc.)

#

McNealy is pushing the fact that Sun is indemnifying customers against potential IP lawsuits from SCO or Microsoft. That's nice, since no other vendor has offered that so far. But let's take a look at that. The licenses Sun bought from USL/Novell/SCO cover Solaris and SunOS, not Linux. If McBride is right, every Linux user is liable for up to $1399 per year per CPU. Those fees alone are almost 10x the licensing fees Sun is charging Mad Hatter customers. On top of that, Sun has to recover its R&D, sales, marketing and support costs. Bottom line is, Sun obviously can't afford it - unless Sun realizes there is hardly any possibility of end user liability to SCO. I think it's fair to say that Sun has more comprehensive knowledge of BSD Unix, System V Unix, Linux, and the history of where the respective codebases came from than does SCO investors like JHC Capital Management.

#

Well, Sun did pay SCO $7.5 million
already.... Personally, I'm betting
the money is to already have this
covered.

#

We shall see if the SUN bet to back SCO...
will haunt SUN in the future.

I think that SUN's LINUX position CHICKENS will COME HOME TO ROOST and their anti-LINUX PRO-SCO position will, in certain cases, cost them (in shops with die hard young LINUX youths doing the new LINUX IT work... who LOVE their LINUX and HATE SCO) We shall see how history treats those who decided to join with SCO and MICROSOFT on the dark side.

At this point in time if SUN said they were sorry to LINUX users for backing SCO and came out strong PRO-LINUX and anti-SCO... then maybe the LINUX users might "think" about accepting their appology. BUT if SUN continues to be two-faced and back SCO and be anti-LINUX... - then, they will be remembered for who they are!

For the latest on SCO-IBM-LINUX battle (SEC filings, SCO stock trades, court room proceedings, and more)...go to pj's new site at:

http://www.GROKLAW.com

#

It is just plain ol' better for everyone!

The only reason why open-source and LINUX has already been accepted in the commercial and non-commercial space is this: the monopoly positions held by the other operating systems held back software and hardware development, period. Everybody knows this! Before LINUX: For any author of a software application to do anything, they first needed to have the blessings of the owner of the OS that the software was to run on (and then they had to pray that the owner of the OS did not try to develop the same application and include it for free as part of the OS). The same held true for hardware development as hardware engineers could do nothing without the blessings of the owner of the OS! Business and personal use of software was also being held up while customers waited for software improvements -that in turn were waiting for periodic improvements in an operating system -that were in turn being held back due to unrelated economic reasons that were ONLY specific to the financial reports for the company that "owned" that operating system.

Linus Torvalds, with the GNU/LINUX GPL preamble freed us all from the problems with the old OS model that you are now saying that we need to go back to!

Linux provides a "neutral" OS kernel that gives all a level playing field to do our computer related business or pleasure on! With the GNU/LINUX GPL we have freedom from the OS dictators, at last!

Yep - with LINUX... If someone wants to create a "better LINUX user application" that addresses user needs better than any other LINUX application, and the application developer wants to copyright and keep proprietary this application, then with Linux... THEY ARE *FREE* TO DO IT! LINUX says that they can keep it proprietary and make money from it without the LINUX kernel folks suddenly wanting to jump into the same business! Microsoft, SCO, and SUN can not make the same claim... they all have application ownership issues that can conflict with other developer of applications! This is why everyone likes LINUX better!

What does SUN take us for - do they thing we are a bunch of idiots?
Oh - by the way Darl, oops I mean McNealy, enterprises already trust the open-source GNU/LINUX GPL model, or did you not notice this. NO one even cares about this indemnification idea that marketing came up with in the past year! SCO and Microsoft have a history with many that, well has pissed us off... and if SUN keeps it up then SUN will end up in the same boat as SCO and Microsoft!

#

Why do you say that Sun is pro-SCO and anti-linux?

Sun paid for licensing rights to use the System V code base originally written at AT&T. In case you didn't know, Solaris was based on Sys V. For basing Solaris on System V they had to pay licensing fees.

EVERYONE who based their OS on Sys. V paid these fees. IBM paid them. HP paid them. DEC paid them. THEY ALL PAID THE FEES. As it turned out, Sun paid more in order to have greater freedom to do what they liked with their software which was based on Sys. V.

SCO bought the Sys V licensing rights from Novell who had bought them from (I think) some organization set up by AT&T. I could be slightly mistaken in that last bit. But the bottom line is that SCO owns the rights to collect license fees from all the companies that are using the System V unix codebase in their OS, and Sun is one of those companies.

Now, what SCO is trying to do now is claim that Linux contains code that SCO has the right to claim license fees for. Sun has *in no way* supported that claim. I hope SCO loses. I assume SCO loses.

But to slam Sun because Sun has paid license fees for things *that they should have paid license fees for*, and that all other Sys V-related Unix OS companies have also paid for, is just plain zealotry and ignorance.

SCO sucks. But Sun's payments to SCO in the past fall squarely into the "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" category. SCO deserves to be paid if you are using System V code as the basis for your OS. If you aren't, then you don't need to pay SCO a dime, and I think SCO's attempt to place Linux under the category of "need to pay" is wrong and will destroy them as a company.

Furthermore, to call Sun anti-linux is just stupid. What do you think the OS is that runs under Mad Hatter? Is it not Suse linux? How is Sun therefore anti-linux when they are selling linux? And have you not heard of the intel-based servers Sun sells which also run linux?

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It looks exactly like the Windows 95 desktop from eight years ago. Exactly, down to the placement of every widget, applet and menu. Please, please, please, try something new for a change. Move the close button the the left-hand side of the window. Separate the taskbar from the lanch bar. Lose the clock. Something, anything, even if you moved the entire Windows95 "Launch Menu" and taskbar to the top of the screen, it would at least be a LITTLE BIT new. But this is just the same old tired crap. If people what this layout, they'll use Windows.

And please, gnome team, give us a way to turn off those ugly desktop icons. Icons on the desktop is sooooo '90s.

#

I won't bother with your other complaints, but you can easily turn off desktop icons. Using gconf-editor uncheck<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/apps/nautilus/preferences/show_desktop.

Yeah, don't bother with "Gonf is the evil Windows registry." bitch bitch bitch whine whine whine... Your complaints will fall on deaf ears.

#

Please read the Gnome HIG

Close buttons on the right side make sense, because your eyes scan a new window from upper left to lower right, thus seeing the important close button faster then in the lower left. In Gnome you have to click in the lower right, if you want to proceed everytime! Thats better than the inconsistent KDE apps in my eyes.

#

This is for business users. It doesn't make sense to change things for the sake of changing. This isn't a circus--it's about productivity, not novelty. Familiarity equals efficiency. Think about it.

#

It looks exactly like the Windows 95 desktop because that's precisely what most of Sun's target audience for this product are still using. The thing they want more than anything if they switch away from Microsoft is minimal retraining costs.

#

My suspicions are unfortunately verified now. They are using Gnome to their liking, and they will dump it one day without hesitation.

What is wrong with a Gnome simplified for average user? This: real desktop linux users are not average joe's. (This will still be the case for the next 5 years). It takes considerable effort to install linux. After all this work, people don't want to see a Win95'ish desktop environment. Minimalists have already their Xfce, blackbox etc. At the end of the day this path will result in a weaker Gnome community and more company control. I am afraid of a downward spiral.
By the way, I am a KDE user, but I believe that competition is very healthy, and want Gnome to be around in the future as a choice!

ta_relax

#

Take yer meds, pad're - it's 2003. Most desktop *nix lusrs are NOT drooling wiener_dudes, but folks with real jobs to do. No time, interest or energy to configure/compile/convolve/de-nest/ recurse what they look at. The default GUI config had better be hard_wired to the Lusrs reptile brain. That's what it's PAYED to do. So he/she can get on with the quantum_statistics, fudge-brownee recipes, plumbing subcontractor insurance or whatever task it is that pays rent.
The computer functions purely as an 'enabler' or multiplier, like a first rate goose_quill. It's primary virtue is transparency.
Not you though, byteboyz, so go back into the closet & grope yer fav electro-mechanic blo-up dolly in private.

#

I think the point is to make Linux accessible to the average user, not just us geeks.

#

...yew are viscous!!

#

Frankly, Sun as a company sickens me. At least with Microsoft and SCO we know where they stand, but Sun on one hand sucks up to the Linux community, but on the other they stab us in the back (this whole indemnification FUD) and then use our work without giving anything back to the community. I, for one, cannot wait for the day that Sun joins SCO in the margins of history. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

#

How can you say Sun doesn't give anything back to the community? Sun did the usability research that resulted in the GNOME HIG. In 2002 Sun received the Helen Keller award for the accessibility work it did on GNOME. Sun gave us OpenOffice.org. Sun gave us NetBeans (open source Java IDE). Ok, so Java itself isn't open source, but Java benefits Linux anyway. So give Sun a little credit, it's not just a Microsoft wannabe.

#

You are right!
To me, Sun is great. I wonder whether or not the people claiming members of the OpenSource community are real.

Hehe.

#

If SUN or SCO were truely backing the future of the OPEN SOURCE model then, they would all be paid up members of the OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPMENT LAB (where Linus Torvalds works).

See the who's who of corporate computing as represented in the membership list of OSDL found here:
http://www.osdl.org/about_osdl/members/

Guess who is missing - SCO, SUN and Microsoft...

OSDL Mission
To be the recognized center of gravity for Linux; the central body dedicated to accelerating the use of Linux for enterprise computing through:

Enterprise-class testing and other technical support for the Linux development community.
Marshalling of Linux-industry resources to focus investment on areas of greatest need thereby eliminating inhibitors to growth.
Practical guidance to our members - vendors and end users alike - on working effectively with the Linux development community.

About OSDL
OSDL - home to Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux - is dedicated to accelerating the growth and adoption of Linux in the enterprise. Founded in 2000 and supported by a global consortium of IT industry leaders, OSDL is a non-profit organization that provides state-of the-art computing and test facilities in the United States and Japan available to developers around the world. OSDL sponsors include Alcatel, Cisco, Computer Associates, Dell, Ericsson, Force Computers, Fujitsu, HP, Hitachi, IBM, Intel, Linuxcare, Miracle Linux Corporation, Mitsubishi Electric, MontaVista Software, NEC Corporation, Nokia, Red Hat, SuSE, TimeSys, Toshiba, Transmeta Corporation and VA Software.

OR you can be an associate member...
http://www.osdl.org/lab_activities/be_an_associat<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> .html
OSDL Lab Associates are the individuals who use OSDL's resources or participate in OSDL working groups. When you register as an OSDL Lab Associate, we establish the account and password that you will need to access many of OSDL's resources. It provides us with an email address where we can contact you, and allows you to opt-in to receive OSDL's newsletter.

Being a lab associate carries no obligations to OSDL. You are also encouraged to review OSDL's privacy policy (pdf).

To sign up as a Lab Associate, simply complete and submit this form.

If you have any questions or comments, you can send them to osdl_support@osdl.org.

In order to be a Lab Associate, please provide the following information (required info is indicated with a red asterisk):

#

big friggin whup. Apparently they have to be part of the OSDL for what they've done in the community to mean anything? I'm so sorry that what they've done so far isn't good enough for you. Here, let me show you my "I care" face:

#

yeah

--
mepstrep@yahoo.com.br

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Sun is just using the open-source community against microsoft, when Microsoft is no longer a threat we will see their real colours. True, the donate StarOffice but only because it will develop faster against MS Office. They only gave java to Linux because Java+Linux is the only answer against Microsofts dominance with Windows.

The work that Sun is doing for GNOME is overrated. Sure, they deserve a little credit. But it is the objective that matters. And I can assure you that we are beginning to see their true colours.

#

You should really look deeper into the Sun Open Source shenanigans. The original poster had a valid point. Everything Sun has "given" to the community has come with a whole heap of strings attached, and its only purpose is to serve to the greater good of Sun. Anything that would even so much as hint to being a "competitive edge" is closed source. I have two issues with this particular setup. First of all, I think that from a corporate perspective, the "desktop appliance" idea sucks. It is a Wintel blowback in terms of technology - i.e. treating the Linux/Unix desktop in the same vein as a windows desktop is simply stupid. The technical underpinning of this particular train of thought is that in Windows, playing with the setup of the machine will most likely fsck up your machine. In linux, the worst that can happen is that your colourscheme turns green and purple.

 
Secondly, the Desktop Appliance idea is just another form of Vendor Lock-in. No different from Microsoft. When it comes to desktops, there is no such thing as "one size fits all" - every user, every culture, every company, they all have different approaches to performing work. In order to truly serve your user base, you must customise this desktop. An appliance by default will not allow you to do that easily.

 
Don't for a second mistake this as Open Source. I want to see Sun distributing their own code along with the code they lifted of the community. I want their patches, their settings, their changes. Bet you they won't do it. I have worked with Sun in the Open source community long enought to know that Sun only cares about oine thing when it comes to Open Source:

 

  Free Labour.

#

Free Labour?

Oh jeez, I thought you were writing about IBM and Redhat?.

Open Source *IS* about free labour you twit!

#

Maybe things are different on RedHat 9. I gave my username role access I probably shouldn't have, causing GNOME to crash with an inexplicable error. The only way back into GNOME was to delete my username and start over. That'll teach this newbie--better be careful making changes or you can screw up more than your screen color.

#

microsoft is a much bigger threat. we need suns help.

yes, sun is "exploiting" open source for free labor. that benefits us in many ways, so i think this is a good thing regardless of thier intentions. no matter how "bad" they may be, they are no where near as dangerous as microsoft.

if sun becomes a problem, we can deal with them more easily. all of suns contributions are either open source/free, or close enough to still be usefull until they are (or are replaced). (java might be the exception and even thats a maybe)

untill then, we should welcome the help. MS would love to see all of us fighting eachother. divide and conquer. we cant afford to do that. MS is much too dangerous. we have to put these differences aside, even if its temporary.

#

Look at Sun where things aren't free. When they have something you have to buy, it costs a crapload of cash. They're no better, and no worse, than Microsoft. I think it's important to know what you're giving up when you make deals with the devil.

#

I run Mandrake 9.1. I've written hundreds of Java programs and downloaded numerous java component libraries. I have never paid Sun a dime for these. I would say that is free as it gets. In my opinion Sun has contributed a lot that the Open Source community can take advantage of.

#

ROFL. Boycott Sun? How far off is my guess that you already weren't buying anything from Sun?

And you say "our work". I assume that means you have contributed a ton of open source code to the community. And have you contributed as much as you have benefitted from the work of others?

Lastly, since you claim to have submitted so much code to the open source community, why are you posting as an Anonymous Reader, instead of telling us who you are so we can see how much you've contributed?

I don't see how Sun telling customers it will indemnify them against SCO is stabbing the open source community in the back. Think about this for a minute. You [b]already[/b] don't need indemnification to use Solaris, because Sun is fully paid up on its System V license and SCO can't touch them. What Sun is indemnifying people for is their use (when bought from Sun) of [b]linux[/b]. How is Sun giving people a reason to use Suse or Red Hat linux the same as stabbing linux and open source in the back?

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Your zealotry has clouded your judgement and led you to make infantile, rash judgements and vastly overblown rantings.

#

The author has clearly never used KDE. GNOME lacks usablity relative to KDE which is far more finished and intuitive IMO. The "Java" Desktop is nothing more than GNOME with a few bundled apps and a JDK. That does not contribute anything for it to be called "Java Desktop". Clearly StarOffice/OpenOffice has improved in the latest reincarnation, but when will GNOME start using CUPS for printing ?

#

GNOME is miles ahead when it comes to accessibility and usability. SUN has put many efforts in improving GNOME in that area.
It was funning listening to KDE developsers talking about ACC/USABILITY last year at the LinuxTag in Germany. They are now starting improving their desktop there. And there hardly is the knowledge behind the scenes which GNOME almost has.
So to speak, GNOME is about 1.5 - 2 years ahead.
BTW, GNOME uses CUPS since the XIMIAN Desktop was released!

#

> It was funning listening to KDE
> developsers talking about ACC/USABILITY
> last year at the LinuxTag in Germany.

You could have had that "fun" already by 1999 if you would have participated in the KDE TWO meeting: accessibility and especially usability were major topics on that meeting. By that time Gnome had still other problems (read: they had to take care that Gnome would at least survive five minutes without crashing).
Some of the results of that meeting were the KDE HIG and the high visual customization (which allows visual impaired people to configure their desktop according to their needs) as well as the KControl modules which cover accessibility.

> They are now starting improving their
> desktop there.

Not true.

> And there hardly is the knowledge behind
> the scenes which GNOME almost has.
> So to speak, GNOME is about 1.5 - 2
> years ahead.

This is bullshit. SuSE, Corel and
a lot of other distributions have contributed
quite a lot of knowledge in terms of usability. I don't know why you consider recommendations by a company which built CDE (which has never ever been user friendly - rather the opposite) to be so valuable.

Thinking about it: Judging from the current press about Sun you should rather worry about Gnome's future. It's obvious that once Sun will run into deeper financial problems they will definately act like SCO does today: They will claim that Gnome infringes their IP by using stolen code. The term "Java desktop environment" shows already what Gnome will be replaced with once they can get rid of it.

#

>when will GNOME start using CUPS for printing ?

You misunderstand.

GNOME "just prints". It's a plugin architecture. GNOME does not deny the choice of printing systems, so you can use whichever one you want, like CUPS.

If YOUR distribution links GNOME against something other than CUPS... that's YOUR problem. MY distribution (RH9 + Ximian GNOME) uses CUPS. No problem...

#

It is a (slightly) tweaked Gnome desktop. Whats the big deal? Documents folder? That comes with Gnome... Sun didnt do anything here. And what makes it a "java" desktop? Just because Sun tries to stick the word "java" everywhere?

This looks like more lame hype yet again from Newsforge. It seems that every week we get a "Linux now ready for the masses" article. Sigh.

#

I find it odd that few of the tech press have picked up on it, and even fewer people have taken notice of the consistently good reviews it gets for this type of application, but Xandros Linux has *already done* what Sun is trying to do, and they have had their product out for 10 months now.

If you are a intermediate/advanced Linux user, Xandros probably won't interest you for personal use, but as a way to get win refugees started, it beats every other distro hands down (including the perennial favorite "newbie" distro, 'Drake). The sole purpose of the distro is to make win refugees be able to get using Linux with the least amount of pain and adaptation possible.

Xandros V.1 is Debian Woody based, uses older software libs, desktop uses KDE2.2, has *excellent* networking abilities with win shares and other b0xen (using the proprietary Xandros File Manager (XFM)), and has a simplified "Start" menu with 1 "best of breed" app for each task a user may need to perform. Hardware recognition on install is great, it picked up my hotplugged Archos MP3 player, Canon camera, USB mouse, etc etc with no problems post-install. It is intended for the "enterprise desktop", with stability being a prime requisite for any software which comes with the distro. Xandros V.2 (based on much newer software) is in beta testing right now. Individual prices - The "Deluxe" version (US$99) comes bundled with CrossOver Office and PlugIns, so that no msOffice or browser functionality is lost in the switch to Linux. The "Standard" version, without the costly CrossOver software, is US$40.

So, if you can't or don't want to wait for the Java desktop to be ready, try the Linux desktop that is already doing what Sun is hoping to do.

I don't work for Xandros, I do want to see them succeed - they understand what is needed to help migrate people to Linux.

#

I tried Xandros recently. It's not even close to being ready for real-world users.

For example, I clicked on something in Xandros to set up my printer and it started asking me all these questions like "Which Ghostscript interpreter do you want to use?"

Sorry, but that doesn't pass the Mom test.

#

Can't you guess lol

Anyway, Xandros 2 is shaping up great.

#

Is this a new distro if linux or just a new desktop gui?

Is this free & open source? is the cost $50 a year for support or for a year or for the license? if it's that much for personal use, I'll stick with windows or choose mandrake.

#

Rightly appropriate, considering Sun isn't interested in catering to Linux hackers or personal users with the Sun Desktop-- they are catering towards medium and large-sized businesses that need a unified desktop solution.

#

I really really like the fact that there is going to be a desktop available to Linux that if fully integrated (example: you can cut and paste from everything you open... a small thing yes, but it means there is more going on than meets the eye).

However, as evendenced by IBM's O/S2 being nowhere around anymore, I don't know if this is going to have such a big impact. When O/S2 was first being marketed in the early to mid 90's, IBM's marketing targeted the 'sophisticated' business user with commercials in foreign languages and subtitles. Even though O/S2 was a far better O/S than Microsquish was offering at the time, including the 2 year wait for Win95 (which O/S2 could have ate for breakfast anytime), no home user bought it. To them it was some business tool software that wasn't cool. (Now rock and roll and Spuds McKenzie, that was cool).

The tech people knew O/S2 was good, but the home users who never used it, had no clue. Now come Windows 95 with all the rock and roll hype and marketing targeted at the home user. It sold like hot cakes. And HERE IS THE THING: the people who altimately sign the checks (cheques, for those of you who care) are NOT the technical people. They are the ones who went out and bought Windows 95 because it looked good on TV. Now they have it at home, it works good for them, THEY ARE USED TO HOW IT LOOKS AND WORKS, it has name recognition for them, and people don't like things that are different... even if they work just as well.

So unless this can be used easily and readily on a home system, I think Windows XXX will still reign. And I think that Gnome and KDE will still have the advantage because they are easier to get a hold of for the technical people (read free, as in beer, and works good enough so why spend time and money installing a server and thin client when my desktop does what I need, and I am used to it, etc. etc. etc.)

Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to some day where the Microsquish monopoly is broken, and free enterprise really does have a chance again in the software industry (my opinion). And that's even though I think that Microsoft products do, for the most part, what they are meant to do quite well (why does everyone copy their desktop and office suite functionality?). (I know about the security flaws etc. so forget the rants.) We need more diversity in the marketplace.

And so on. Ready, set, go ahead and away at this.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

theshowmecanuck

#

for one, IBM was selling, at retail, 1 million copies of OS/2 per month in late 1994 and early 1995. TO HOME USERS.

Secondly, Microsoft prevented almost every PC vendor in the world from pre-installing OS/2. Remember the story of how HP pulled all the PC's running OS/2 off of the Comdex floor the night before it opened? Those hundreds of millions of dollars spent on marketing Windows 95 was a bet-the-company type of plan and they had the cash to do it. Legal or not.

Thirdly, Windows 95 was WAY different from Windows 3.1 and people took it and figured out how it worked. They didn't have much of a choice though either. Microsoft forced it on most OEMs by increasing the price of Dos/Windows 3.x so that Windows 95 was cheaper. The reason Sun is making this LOOK and FEEL like MS Windows is because they have no choice. Microsoft has dumbed down users so that they'll just stare at the screen if it doesn't look familiar.

and finally, Sun targetting the business user. If they come out with a consumer version or give it away then it's icing on the cake. But, Linux will move from the corporate environment/desktop to the home desktop unless something like KNOPPIX get to the home market first. Pre-installs aren't going to happen until businesses get the marketshare up.

IMHO.

#

hahaha, microsquish, hahaha, you so funny, you kill me, hahaha, a true representative of teh open source community, hahaha.

keep it up.

#

from reading the commentary about "the real world", i can easily conclude that few or none of the commentators actually make their livings by sitting at a desk in front of a computer, creating presentations, researching documentation or writing reports. they don't prepare spreadsheets, complete with macros, nor do they document processes, publish newsletters and answer 50 emails a day -- sandwiching all the above between 4 meetings a day.

that's the "real world." i live in it. except for the meetings part. that's because i'm a software consultant and i work from a home office. instead of meetings, i have laundry, dishes, housecleaning and cats to deal with.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

i've been using linux as my preferred home system since 1997. it's come a long, long way in terms of usability. no doubt about it. it took me two months of twiddling to get my modem to work back then, now they work oob. setting up a network? configuring X? oh yeah, i long for the days of running xf86config & tweaking the XF86Config file, searching for the manual on the monitor and vid card, trying to make a 3-button mouse work. NOT.

but there are still so many issues that any hope of "world domination" is just so much gumflapping. it's a 20-step process, involving the installation of 4 software packages, to get my OfficeJet working -- just to print. the fax functionality is disabled (from the pc). it's another one to get it shared on the network via samba.

that's one of many examples of why linux is not making it in the "real world" where people have jobs & assignments to finish & deadlines to meet. it's not that "world domination" can't be achieved, but the kind of silly commentary evinced in the "what's the real world?" dialog here does nothing to advance it.

no, downloading mp3, writing code, hacking html, and zipping around campus on rollerblades is not "the real world." deal with it.

mp

#

I can go along with a lot of your post. But I was shocked with how easy it was to access a new printer on a Windows machine from my linux box this go around.

#

Because the demo was on a CD, the reviewer couldn't test an important aspect of business PCs: The ease of installation and de-installation of applications.

Presumably, Sun will want all future business application development to be web-based with java-on-the-server. However, the reality is that no matter how superior the Java-on-the-server or any web-based architecture is, not all businesses can or will go with web or Java development. Sun will need to be sure that if a customer wishes to include an application that Sun allows for easy deployment and removal.

= 9J =

#

Man, if you want this desktop you're gonna have to pay for it!!!, is this valid?. O_o

It makes me think about Mandrake trying to put ADs in their next distro. I don't understand the GPL license anymore. ADs in the OS, paying for software, updates or support, now I'm afraid Linux may become the same as windows in the future.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(

#

<A HREF="http://homepage.mac.com/tonza/" TITLE="mac.com">tonza</a mac.com> here... (just to advertise that I don't like posting things as Anonymous Reader)

"The Java™ Desktop"... when I think of this, I think of what used to be called Hot Java Views.

But when I see screen shots of it, the only thing "Java" about it is the so-called integration of a couple of Java applications into the RPMs that make up the software package.

This is pathetic. Nah... stick to your favorite Linux distribution people! (Meanwhile, I'll just stick to Mac OS X!)

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I saw $100/seat/year in Sun's faq for the desktop, not $50 as you attest. Maybe I'm reading something wrong? Anyway, I can buy XP for what? $150? And I can use it for years. What stops me is their copy-protection scheme that may require a technical support call to get into my machine.

When I can buy RedHat or Debian (Not counting the free download) for $50 or less, and they include the KDE (also available for free), why would I want to pay SUN for a quick derivation of those products? It doesn't even look legal to me. Aren't they supposed to provide a free download?

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I know it's complicated, but the cost
is $50 per employee per year, if the
company already uses the Server s/w
(Java Enterprise System) at $100/year
per employee.

All of the posts by people who "don't
get it" are people who shouldn't buy
it...this is targetted at corporations
who want something that is (1) legal
(2) supported (3) compatible and (4)
more affordable than Windows + Office,
which can be over $500 easily.

Yes, Sun is doing more of a marketing
job than a new distribution (this is
based on SuSE) but isn't that exactly
what is needed? We don't need yet
another Linux distro, but we do need
a company that has no allegiance to
Microsoft that can confront them head
on and offer a much more attractive
product.

EVANGELIST.COM

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All of the posts by people who "don't
get it" are people who shouldn't buy
it...

I still don't get it. I do agree that I shouldn't buy it. Why? When I can buy RedHat 9 for $40.00. Once.

this is targetted at corporations
who want something that is (1) legal
(2) supported (3) compatible and (4)
more affordable than Windows + Office,
which can be over $500 easily.

Let me add:

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...and modified slightly over what's available at RedHat, SuSe, Debian, so that it can be sold and marketed as something original, which it surely ain't.

Yes, Sun is doing more of a marketing
job than a new distribution (this is
based on SuSE) but isn't that exactly
what is needed?

They're bringing something to the table that is needed? What is that?

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Sun is targeting this system at businesses, not personal usage - from what I have read. Although, many of the posts here seem to imply that a user would purchase the system for home use, and I'm quite sure this is NOT what sun intended.
I think it is a good thing that a company is providing a solution for businesses, as that is a big foot in the door for home use. I am tired of sitting here at work using windows & outlook. I would really enjoy being able to use a linux machine, regardless of who has distributed it. If Sun spend the money and put in the effort to provide a distribution, they are sure able to charge for it.

Now for an opinion...
It seems many linux users may not really be so concerned with Microsoft and how their business works, but any business in general. I mean, if everyone is bagging Microsoft for being Micrsoft and creating windows, fine, but people are bagging Sun for distributing Linux. Businesses are required to make money to survive. People aren't able to live if they don't get paid and if businesses don't make money, people don't get paid.
Now, if a big company decides to implement Sun's solution - excellent, they are going to use Linux rather than Windows. Would everyone be happy if the business stuck with Windows? I doubt it, so what is the answer?

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It's true and I agree, businesses require money to survive, but Linux has another nature.

Think of the people behind every project in the Linux community, so many people doing this incredible stuff for "free", some of them accept donations and some not, everyone has their work of curse, everyone needs money in this world to survive(NOT THE COMPANIES, every human been), is it fair when a company takes the work from this people and use it to gain money?. Maybe yes... maybe not... that's the point in all this.

The way Linux works and its evolution can show there might be a different way to live, can you imagine a world where everyone works and gives the best to make life easy for everyone?, a world where you won't need money to survive?.

Even when so many people say I'm only a dreamer I'm looking forward to it, I hope this becomes a reality.

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