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Is the command line necessary for most Linux users?

By Robin 'Roblimo' Miller on January 05, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)

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Every time I write an article about normal people using Linux with little or no training, a few weisenhimers inevitably accuse me of being an overly optimistic advocate by not warning readers that it takes a least some knowledge of Bash to run and maintain a Linux installation. The problem with this accusation is that it might have been true in 1998, but it is not true in 2004. It is now possible to run Linux without knowing any commands beyond point-and-click, cut-and-paste, and drag-and-drop. Indeed, those are the only ones I use for everyday computing myself.
I made a conscious decision to use as much point-and-click and as little command line arcana as I could back in 2000. My reasoning was simple: If I wanted to have command line computing, I might as well go back to an 8088 running DOS instead of having all kinds of fancy modern computer gear around me. I became totally unreasonable on this subject. If a Linux distribution forced me to type abbreviations like /mnt/moretyping/moretyping/ to play a music CD instead of clicking on a desktop icon, I would find a distribution that gave me the icon.

At the time, Mandrake was the pointiest and clickiest Linux distribution around, so I started using it instead of Red Hat, which was the first Linux flavor I tried. (I stuck with Mandrake through 2002, when SUSE started exceeding Mandrake in user-friendliness; I'm currently experimenting with several Debian-based distros, notably Mepis.)

Back in 1998 and 1999 I often felt like I was the world's only non-geek Linux user. Eric S. Raymond flamed me hard and long on a Gnome email list for my refusal to use vi or emacs instead of searching for a GUI-based text/HTML editor. And if I wanted one that badly, he said, I shouldn't try to get others to write it, but should write it myself or I wasn't fit to use Linux. I'm just as hard-headed as Eric, so I came right back at him. The reality was -- and still is -- that most people who use computers as tools instead of toys want their computers' operation to be as simple as possible, but this concept had not yet penetrated "the Linux community."

Those of us who refuse to become at least jackleg programmers just to write and print a letter aren't necessarily stupid. We just have other things on our minds -- like our jobs -- but getting this point through to some of the self-styled "Linux community leaders" was not easy. You'd think they would have gotten the message when they watched Ralph Nader -- as strong a free software advocate as you'll find anywhere, and a man no one can possibly call stupid -- use Windows to show slides during a speech about why free software ideals would revolutionize computing, not because Ralph wanted to use Windows, but because he didn't have time to learn how to make and display a simple presentation with the Linux tools available at the time.

I always considered the "scratch your own itch" hacker ethos an essentially masturbatory thing. It would be like me writing articles *I* want to read instead of articles I think *you* want to read. Much of the free software programming tide has swung away from that attitude in the past few years, and we're seeing more software developed that satisfies the programmers' friends' and families' needs at least as much as their own. One of the prime examples of this is Bluefish, a lovely GUI-based text/HTML editor I have used since early in its development cycle. It is the editing tool I longed for back in the 20th century. Today I have it -- along with a stable, feature-rich Mozilla Web browser, OpenOffice.org, and other excellent, user-level programs that make Linux as smooth a work tool (for my humble needs) as any desktop operating system in the world.

A lot of this advance in Linux "community" thinking has come about because the stereotype teenage open source hacker working on obscure command line projects his parents could never figure out has gone away, replaced by an image of adult open source developers who want their coworkers and families to use Linux so they'll stop pestering them with Windows support questions.

The funny thing is, yesterday's inward-turned free software hackers and today's outward-looking free software developers are often the same people, just a little older, with their acne cleared up. And members of the next generation coming up have always used GUIs on their desktops -- they are too young to remember DOS or CP/M -- so we can expect to see increasingly sophisticated open source desktop environments, even as the underlying structures keep improving.

A stable Linux desktop will run for years

This point is apparently lost on the people who still believe even the humblest Linux end user needs command line training, but I tell you from personal experience that if you set up a desktop Linux system correctly in the first place, it should not need any command line-level maintenance. Most people don't run around experimenting with webcams or other expensive periperhals. They buy a computer, monitor, printer, and perhaps a scanner and digital camera, and use them until they wear out. "Normal" people don't open up their computers and install the latest Nforcia 5-D GameMeister UltraVideo HDTV card as soon as it hits the market; they use what originally came in their computers and don't think about upgrading at all beyond (perhaps) adding some RAM. If they want fancy games they buy a PS2 or an Xbox, and if they want better stereo sound, they buy a better stereo. They buy standalone TiVos instead of trying to make their computers into digital video recorders or, more recently, simply sign up for the TiVo-like services now being pushed by cable and satellite TV providers.

Most "real world" desktop (and laptop) computers function as combination office machines and Internet terminals. It is easy to install a desktop Linux system that will do these jobs. Heck, you can now buy computers preloaded with Linux, and buy printers and digital cameras certified to work with them, all from the same vendor. And once you have one of these systems, there is no need -- ever -- to do anything beyond point and click until the thing breaks down and either gets sent off to a repair shop or gets replaced by a newer model.

Warning: Automotive analogy ahead!

Many years ago I decided I wanted a cool custom van. I bought a used (windowless) Ford Econoline, put in hatches and opening windows, added chrome wheels, installed a monster stereo, put in a floor and -- I hate to admit, but it was the early 70s -- yellow shag carpeting. I installed paneling and built some simple (varnished wood) bunks and other interior furniture, then talked a girlfriend into sewing some cushions and curtains. I added overload rear springs and heavy-duty shocks to give my van a slight "rake," and put on a chrome roof rack, added a CB radio and a high-stick antenna, painted the thing bright blue and had my body shop buddy Juan do some exotic pinstriping, and when it was all done I had the perfect machine for cruising Van Nuys Boulevard.

Now you can buy "custom" vans, brand new, from car dealers. Young men no longer commonly dress out their cars' engines and park with their hoods open so passers-by -- hopefully cute females -- can "oooh" and "aaah" over their chromed-up powerplants. You can still find a few extreme performance mods out there, but true Hot Rod Culture has largely been replaced by blanded-down, TV-advertised "performance" cars (Warning: professional driver on closed course) that are not nearly as cool as something you create with your own hands.

Rap has gone from the hallmark of an underground culture to part of mass market America. And so it is going with Linux, which is -- sorry, hard-core hackers -- becoming an operating system choice, not a club. You can now drive along Van Nuys Boulevard in a store-bought "custom" car or on a chopped and custom-painted Harley you (shudder) bought that way, carrying a store-bought Linux laptop hooked to the Internet through your cellular phone, and no one will sneer at you.

Well, hardly anyone. A few old-school types might, but we are on our way out and we know it. Such is life. (sigh)

Slick paint doesn't mean 'dumbed down'

A car with a cool paint job can still be a fine machine under the hood, and a Linux distribution with an attractive GUI interface can still have all the powerful GNU and other command line tools anyone could want. Anyone who wants to tweak and tune SUSE or Mandrake or Fedora or Xandros or Mepis or even Lindows can do so to his heart's content, just as I like to do my own oil changes, tuneups and other minor Jeep maintenance and improvement tasks, even if most drivers hardly know how to find the hood release these days.

I don't sneer at people who own cars and don't know how to fix them (at least not much, and never in public), and I don't think command-line Linux people should openly sneer at those who prefer icons to terminal windows.

Those who don't modify or repair their own computers or cars don't suffer much by not maximizing their machines' performance. They probably don't notice the difference, and even if they did they'd shrug it off as unimportant. Maybe *I* think it's studly to get an extra two miles per gallon and 15 - 25 horsepower more than stock out of my Jeep Cherokee, but is it really worth spending over $300 on a Jet Module, plus $150 or so worth on premium ignition parts and a hi-flo air filter, not to mention 20 cents per gallon extra for premium gas every time I go to the gas station?

Then, of course, we can start doing internal engine modifications and overclocking our computers. And the quest for more speed and better handling can go on and on, until we spend all our time and most of our money modifying our cars and computers while other -- I really should say "saner" -- people go to parties, play sports, watch movies, go dancing, and travel.

World Linux domination!

The old line was "Linux world domination." Perhaps this will come to pass one day, but what's more likely is that the world will come to accept and dominate Linux, not the other way around.

The Linux of 2010 will be a totally smooth operating system. It will have a GUI so much more evoloved than anything today that you'll want to cry when you remember what you put up with back in '03 and '04.

Other operating systems will also advance. Microsoft, finally faced with real competition, is not going to sit there passively or rely solely on lawyers and lobbyists to keep sales up. Apple will keep on thinking different. BeOS might get resurrected. A consumer-level BSD Unix might be developed. And something entirely new might come along; there are several incipient operating systems out there that show major potential.

I'm sure there will always be a fully-malleable command line interface beneath the evolved version of Linux, but it will be purely for programmers. Ordinary people will never need to use it or even be aware that it exists. If they have system problems that can most easily be corrected through command line manipulation, they will probably allow their Linux provider to log into their machine(s) and repair the problems -- and chances are the Linux providers will use automated remote diagnosis and repair tools by then, not human programmers, except in the most drastic cases -- which will probably turn out to be hardware problems that require physical action to fix, anyway.

What I'm predicting here is exactly what members of the old "Linux should only be for geeks like us" club have always feared: Linux that Sam Sixpack and Polly Pina Colada can use it as thoughtlessly as they use Windows today. It is part of the "World dominates Linux" process, and it is going to happen whether you like it or not.

The funny thing is, most of the best Linux and free software developers I know are not against Linux becoming massively successful. Indeed, some of the more forward-looking ones see this move as a business opportunity. They know that someone is going to need to develop (and profit from) the services that will inevitably surround consumer-level Linux but don't yet exist, and the most forward-looking developers of all are already working so hard to develop those services that they don't have time to worry about whether or not it's good to see user-level Linux moving farther away from its command line roots and deeper into the GUI camp a little more each day.

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on Is the command line necessary for most Linux users?

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Command Line are cool!

Posted by: wabautista on January 05, 2004 05:14 PM
Using command line is better.

But to persuade Windows users, you have to have a good GUI.

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Re:Command Line are cool!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 05:49 PM
Sometimes it just comes down to the command line being easier... after all, isn't linux all sbout the best tool for the job?

i would much rather open a terminal and type "cp<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dir/dir/filename<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dir/new_filename" than open a file manager and navigate to directory a, select the file/s i need... navigate to a new directory and paste the file/s

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Re:Command Line are cool!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 05:13 AM
Part of the reason that I switched to Linux was because of the command line. The windows command line was limited and I wanted a way to control my machine without having to use the mouse and click through five or six menus to edit what I wanted.

Now I just type emacs<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/location/filename and edit the file I want without having to clicky clicky all over the place. If I don't know something I type man "what I want to know" and I actually learn something.

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Re:Command Line are cool!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 02:38 PM
I wouldn't.....

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Re:Command Line are cool!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 07:41 PM
Sorry - command line is NOT cool. It may have geek street cred but it's impossible to sell to the millions windows users who will have to be persuaded to migrate if Linux is going to be anything other than a niche market on the desktop.
The vast majority of PC users are not technical. They just want a tool to help them work or play and a good tool is one that is natural and instinctive to use. We may bang on about stability and security but the average user is only interested in writing that memo, sending that e-mail and doesn't want to bother with 'all that technical stuff'
We techies forget that what is obvious to us is arcane to most and an attitude that 'If the user can't work out how to use the software then that's their problem' is all to prevelant within the techie community. Don't let our arrogance stop the spread of (GNU/Linux) excellence.

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Re:Command Line are cool!

Posted by: wabautista on January 05, 2004 08:52 PM
Just like I said, a good GUI will persuade the Windows users.

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Re:Command Line are cool!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 01:32 AM
Hmm... people have become lazy to learn.. if they would just learn basic commandline their life would be easier.. and it's not like they CAN'T, because in the DOS days my mom new how to use cd, pkzip etc. and norton commander and wp51<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:).. but now she's too lazy to learn it on her linux desktop.
If people would learn a little command-line their life would be better.. however i agree we have to keep up with the GUI.

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Re:Command Line are cool!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 10:37 PM
Not one of the CLI defenders is suggesting that a GUI is not appropriate for certain tasks or that those people developing the GUIs should pack up shop and sign on to the Emacs project. What the CLI defenders are saying is that, in the rush to pander to Windows users, we should never forget that the CLI is indispensible on a Linux box. To hide that fact is to hide Linux's true power.

I used to answer thousands of newbie support questions at MandrakeExpert. Most of those newbies feared the command line. If I suggested they open a terminal and type a command, they'd ask me if there wasn't a GUI way to do it. Sometimes there was a way to do it in the GUI but it was just so convoluted and time consuming to try to explain "Click the K button and, under Networking, find Tool X. Now, when Tool X opens, go to the File menu up top and..." Normally, I could accomplish the same thing with a couple or three commands at the command line and the output from typing the commands told me what went wrong, if something did. In what way is this damaging to anyone? How can one duplicate the experience of telling someone who's having NIC troubles to type
<TT>insmod rtl8139too</TT>
and report back what it says? Is it not a good thing for a user to learn that this is possible?

Finally, why should any one of us care a whit if a gazillion Windows users march to Linux tomorrow? Each of us is using Linux for its benefits to us and, I suspect, the constellation of benefits to which each of us responds is slightly different. Maybe Windows is the right place for some people. Should we really have to, or try to, make the transition to Linux a seamless experience for the billions of MS droids? I don't have a problem doing that unless it means that, in the process, I have to hide or, worse, give up the CLI. If that should ever come to pass, then, yes, I object.

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Depends on your task repetition rate

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 10:44 AM
It all depends on how often you perform a given task. Typically, a command line is "faster," as long as you know the particular sets of commands and various options to do exactly what you want. I find it far faster to pop open a term window (typically the one I have lying around all the time) than to use a file navigator, click to where I want to go, and then select the viewing options. CLIs are also easier to script, which is often what you end up doing for highly repetitive tasks.

In constrast, GUIs serve to prompt the user through tasks that they are familiar with, but don't do all the time and thus don't quite remember. The GUI layout, buttons, etc., serve as a mnemonic for various functions for the user. So, when I have to reconfigure the various services that are running on my Linux box and don't quite remember the various commands for fiddling around with various files in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/rc.d, I just use Red Hat's services GUI and it works perfectly.

Reconfiguring services is not something I do often (like once every couple of months max). I don't need to script it, so a GUI works fine. Getting a list of files in a directory is something I do all the time, so being able to make it quick and painless is nice.

In short, I support the author's general characterization, with the caveat that I think a good system really has both methods available. Windows really sux without a good CLI, and old-school UNIX was way too reliant on it.

Finally, it's important to note that GUI doesn't necessarily mean a full bit-mapped, high resolution display, etc. I find that sometimes a nice curses-based "GUI" that runs in a term window (great over a remote SSH or telnet link) is just what the doctor ordered, bridging the gap between the two modes of working. Heck, there are those who believe that Emacs is just the generalization of this, being the uber-character-mode-GUI for all sorts of tasks.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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We're in the middle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2004 12:44 AM
As part of a company that I feel is hugely responsible for spreading Linux through the western New York area, I've seen what people want, like, and don't like. I can safely say that we get about 10 computers a week with virused up Winblows on them, and not one of them leaves without Linux. Here's what we've grown to see: People want an easy O/S, people want protection, people like to be on the cutting edge, and most of all, people want piece of mind.
We prefer Redhat9 currently, and yes it comes bare-bones. But with about 2 hours of configuration, it become one hell of a slick looking -and running- system! I see no reason why command line is needed for regular joe's, and I see it everyday. Another thing is, people love Linux! After dealing with pop-ups, crashing, programs being installed without permission, and of course the dreaded BSOD, people welcome a slick state of the art o/s. And once they see the graphics in Linux, especially with the accelerated NVIDIA drivers, they're sold.
So what's the point? Command is a great tool to have, and I agree with what one user said, that using cp is 10 times easier and faster than drag-and-drop, but it isn't neccessary. Check out some screen shot of Cyber Source Linux at <A HREF="http://www.thecybersource.com/linux.html" TITLE="thecybersource.com"> </a thecybersource.com>, and Let me know what you guys think, Denisesballs@thecybersource.com.

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Casual, Everyday, Power and Guru users

Posted by: David Mohring on January 05, 2004 05:42 PM
http://lists.userlinux.com/pipermail/discuss/2003<nobr>-<wbr></nobr> December/000065.html

User Interface Target Matrix

You can split the tasks on the desktop/system into four major roles.

The Four Major Roles
User : Desktop as tools and occasional barriers to getting things done
Admin : Providing support and maintaining the system
Builder: Collects, selects, bundles, customizes and installs/deploys.
Developer: Creates/Hacks software.

It is also possible to classify the approach people take in performing each of the four roles.

The Four Classes of approach.
Casual : Intermittent, Beginning, or busy/lazy users.
Everyday : General day to day users
Power : Customize and Automate
Guru : In depth knowledge and command line shortcuts

It is obvious that some people perform more than one role and can approach each role as a differing class of approach, based upon their knowledge and desire. It is also obvious that each has different requirements and that attempting to force any user interface which does not match that person's approach is going to irritate them and become a barrier to adoption for the user.

While it is possible to up skill, if it's not a direct requirement of their employment, most people consider it a hassle not worth the effort. Microsoft's approach has been to further dumb down the builder,admin and developer user interfaces, which irritates many everyday, power and guru users.

A truly successful Linux/Open Source/Free desktop environment would continue to provide multiple *synchronized* user interfaces for each of the four roles targeting each individual approach.

For the role of user, this could mean bolting on to applications Druid/Wizard walk though for casual users to proving scripting interfaces for power users and command line UIs for gurus. The desktop environment could start the application on everyday mode by default and let the end user switch interfaces.

Automation Over Time Demands Consistent Interfaces

Both power and gurus need long term consistent interfaces for customization and automation. Microsoft introduces entirely new API/scripting interfaces with almost each release of MS Office, a "feature" which drives many Microsoft Office power users nuts.

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Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 05:46 PM
It is marvellous to see someone at 'high levels' say at last what we mere GUI users have been saying for some time. We really DONT want to use the shell and DOS-like commands: if we did, we'd run DOS 6.2.

I am a Linux devotee (SuSE9), I use Win98SE only if I absolutely have to do so (and believe me it is now getting rarer) and I use Linux because it is stable, secure and mostly does exactly what I want. The desktop is excellent, I use point and click for virtually everything I do and I go to command line level perhaps once in 6-9 months. I simply do not need to do so with the KDE desktop.

Finally, I already note that a command line devotee has said that the command line is better. Allow me to say loudly that it definitely is NOT better if your main use of the computer is graphics/text mixtures using a wordprocessor.Why in God's name should I use command line or vi or even Emacs if I have OpenOffice 1.1. I do not have time to waste and I can do everything I want via a GUI.

I have no problem with those who like "Linux purism" reverting to the "UNIX Style command line", developers and other specialist users need it.....and good on 'em...but don't try to push it on others who don't want a bar of it. Well done Robin !!!!!!!

Tony Young


 

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: jvds on January 05, 2004 07:58 PM
The reason some people would use vi/vim over staroffice etc is that it is faster to load and with a lot of practice (admitally a many years worth) it can be a very powerful editor. However for people writing reports etc yes start office is the way to go

Rus

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 08:15 PM
> We really DONT want to use the shell and
> DOS-like commands: if we did, we'd run
> DOS 6.2.

so youre saying dos 6.2 and a linux/unix installation with no x are the same? do you have any idea how silly that sounds?

> Finally, I already note that a command line
> devotee has said that the command line is
> better. Allow me to say loudly that it
> definitely is NOT better if your main use
> of the computer is graphics/text mixtures
> using a wordprocessor.

no graphical tool will ever match the power and flexibility of bash or most modern shells, anyone with decent unix experience can tell you that. when i say graphical tool, im talking about tools for system maintenance, configuration, etc etc.

but if you are doing wordprocessing, why should you even think about a shell? what does that have to do with anything?

> Why in God's name should I use command line
> or vi or even Emacs if I have OpenOffice 1.1.

why in gods name are you comparing a shell and a text editor to an office suite? you are a very, very confused person...

> developers and other specialist users need
> it.....and good on 'em...but don't try to
> push it on others who don't want a bar of it.

developers dont really need it. system administrators, for example, do. youre confused again. but youre right about pushing it on others... if all you need is a desktop machine, and you dont want to mess around too much, there should be no need to fire up any xterms.

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 01:52 AM
I think you are misunderstanding the point of the article, I quote:
"anyone with decent unix experience can tell you that."
The article is stating the world is moving to the point where Joe Sixpack has never seen a command line, or even knows what a *nix shell looks like. I appreciate the article.

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 02:28 AM
I think you have proven the point. A person with descent unix skills, is not the person who will probebly use the GUI. Think why windows and Mac caught on and took off so fast. We are visual, mean we like pictures and colours, animals. I am a descent Unix user, but I do not think the command line would be easier to use then a GUI when doing layering in MacGimp or Photoshop. I still go with Linux for servers, and I even use some of the Unix commands in Mac Os X to delete files and other maintainence things, which can be faster than the GUI. I would guess I am a rarity.

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Re:We are visual.. NOT

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 07:05 AM
We are visual..

Not quite! Think about it. ALL speech, ALL text and ALL thoughts derived from speech are NONVISUAL, because they stem from and are derived from SOUND. You can read this entire article and all of the comments in text-only. Try it in graphics-only and you will only get ads.

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Cy3ttariA on January 06, 2004 08:04 PM
Normally, I don't bother with replies, but a few points need to be clarified.

First of all, I know precisely what I am writing about. I grew up using DOS 6.2 batch files and programmed in Pascal......and Basic...and Fortran. Of course DOS6.2 and UNIX (and Linux) are dissimilar..ask yourself: why am I using Linux ? and it should answer the question for you: Linux is far, far, far better. The point I was making loud and clear was that essentially you worked at command line level in DOS; Windows blew that away; why regress to that level with Linux<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. if you don't want to ?

Second, try thinking novice ONLY and then use vi. You will feel as if you are back in the DOS command line era or the shell. Of course experience makes it easier...but think novice and think convenience. I can do everything point and click..you cannot do that in vi. Again, the point is that point and click opens the doors to wonderful software running in native Linux... I prefer that.

Third. I do not use a network..it is a standalone PC, therefore, systems admin is a specialist occupation to me, even if it is not to others in that particular world. Accepted fully that such people will currently need the command line...but not always. The advances in GUI's for sys admins are galloping ahead. And would I prefer them, absolutely.

Finally, a scan of all the comments to Robin's article reveals the usual tug of war. Those who like working with lean mean machines at the command line level reckon the you have to use command line and the shell to fully appreciate the power and speed of Linux; those like me who prefer friendly GUI's say so and are often put down. Come on people: Linux really is for everyone. If you want to use only the shell and command line, you have that choice; if you want to use only the GUI and various window managers, you can do that too; and if you want to use both - guess what, you can ! Ultimately, Linux is about choice and freedom and if I want the freedom to ignore the command line...I can have it.

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 10:47 PM
You're basically arguing that you'd rather use an office suite or wordprocessor than a text editor. That's like saying why would I use EDIT.EXE (or Notepad) when I have Microsoft Office?

To me, an Office Suite is a waste of time for I do. I mostly just edit text files. And I do it remotely. It's much nicer to be able to SSH in and run Emacs from anywhere, and all my documents are in the same place. Sure, I could remote access the GUI, but that is slow and doesn't feel right, and not fun when you have a slow connection.

Yeah, GUI is important, but so is the command-line. Don't ignore the command-line like some distros are trying to do.

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 11:26 PM
I think you're missing the point. _Some_ distros _should_ ignore the command line. That's the great thing about Linux - each distro can be customized for its target market. The "be all and end all" distros are nice for some, but many need and want an experience customized for them. That's what makes free software great!

For my server machines, I don't even install X. But for my desktops, I'm going Mandrake or similar.

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DOS 6.2 != UNIX shell

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 12:12 AM

It's not even close.

I think what the Linux ``purists'' are worried about is that access to the command line might disappear or that you won't be able to run the system without X. I'm not sure how the former could ever happen. The latter is becoming a bit of a problem with some distributions. (The long time ability to run Linux on low memory systems for tasks like firewalling or file/print services is getting harder to do. Or at least harder to figure out how to do as some tools don't document what files the GUI interface is modifying behind the scenes.)

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Re:Thankyou Robin for an honest summation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 05:39 AM
"We really DONT want to use the shell and DOS-like commands: if we did, we'd run DOS 6.2."

No. If you really 'did', you'd be running DR-DOS 7.03.

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Linux Choices

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 05:47 PM
Linux has been about choices as the mantra goes. Maybe the year 2004 will be the year that the GNU/Linux community pulls together and actually makes some (choices).
The GNU/Linux community worldwide makes up quite a talented orchestra of code musicians. Imagine what would happen if they could agree to play the same tune.
Maybe even agree on some standard form of anything so that distribution reviews can actually get past the installer and discuss in depth, the fit, usabillity and finish of the apps that people use more than once.

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Amen!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 10:47 AM
Well said.

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You are right Robin!

Posted by: defurnej on January 05, 2004 05:51 PM
Being somekind of a geek myself (I was already busy with microprocessors when I was 14, now I am 37), I never had problems with any kind of computer. I even dropped MS as far as 1991, worked still with DOS for a time, then switched to OS/2, until in 1998 I switched to Linux.

I have always appreciated stability, that was for me the main reason never to use any MS product or MS based software.

However, in 2000 I got the chance to teach Linux on a freelance base. I wrote the course myself and it was appreciated. This being the first time for the institute I did the job for, in the beginning we had mostly problems with hardware and infrastructure.

Last year, we gave an advanced course, and I had also the pleasure to give a tailored course to people from a local computer company, ranging in experience from simple helpdesk people to system engineers.

In the course of this training, which was highly condensed (three days in a week two sessions of three hours, for four or five weeks), something that had bothered me a long time, became apparent to me. I know Linux so good, that when I have problems, I know where to look at on the command line to solve the problem.

Fat luck for someone who does not know the command line, but I have to give a good course, something from which those people learn.

So, after the summer I changed my course to make it possible to learn people about Linux concepts, starting from what they know about Windows, and only giving them the command line, when they have explored those concepts thoroughly by means of the
GUI (for the moment GNOME/Red Hat 9).

With the GUI and Nautilus/Konqueror I can show people where files are located, how the directory structure is, what the administrative attributes are. With other graphical programs I can show them how to install software (rpm), manage users and groups, search for files and create archives.

Through the menu I can show people how to create a text file, using a simple graphical editor, save it and edit it.

I have given it twice yet, and it seems to go well. In both courses I got the same question. When we installed the system, we chose Dutch as our language. The question was : why do not all the programs have consistent translations? There are still a lot of programs which have only partial translations. I am only talking about graphical programs here.

This part of the course takes about 9 hours. Today, I will start with the command line. In this case, not because I deem it necessary for the end user, but because these people are not end users. They are computer technicians and programmers, people who must support end users themselves.

It could be that this year we will be giving OO/SO for end users, and that we will deploy the course on Linux.

Even at home, I tend to go more for a graphical interface nowadays, because my wife has to use Linux too. So it is necessary that I can show her where and how to find things she needs.

Regards, and best wishes for the new year,

Jurgen

#

Progress is the answer...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 06:10 PM

Personally, I love the command line because I'm a net admin, and I frequently have to login to machines remotely. Anything that a Linux/Unix box can do can be executed from the command line, which is a far cry from any other OS.



That said, I also love the GUI. All the programming and web design I do is generally from within a GUI because it's easier. Sure I could fire up a terminal with vi (which I'll do if I need to fix a quick bug), but it doesn't have the functionality of a dedicated IDE (like the code completion features of Zend Studio for example).



I use both GNOME and KDE, and even though they're both very high quality environments, I know that in time they will only get better.



What initially attracted me to Linux (and what keeps me here) is the freedom to use my system as it best suits me. Even though I would have a hard time without a command line, I know that the other 99% of users out there don't want anything to do with it, and I'm fine with that.



What it comes down to is that I agree: Linux shouldn't _need_ a command line to run if it's going to be a main-stream OS. Whether that's a KDE/GNOME issue or a Fedora/SuSE/Mandrake/etc issue is irrelevant to the average Joe user, but it _is_ something that the development community should be accutely aware of.

#

Re:Progress is the answer...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 08:32 PM
I enjoy owning a '93 ford explorer but rarely do I open to hood to go beyond basic oil, transmission upkeep.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)

#

You got it

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 10:52 AM
What it comes down to is that I agree: Linux shouldn't _need_ a command line to run if it's going to be a main-stream OS.

I second that and would just add that I think both interfaces should be optional at a certain level. Like you said, when you're doing remote server admin, being able to do everything through an SSH session is great. When I'm on my desktop doing something strange that I have never done before, however, I much prefer a GUI. Ditto with doing obvious desktop work which is simply graphics-oriented (trying to imagine a CLI version of the GIMP...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-).

#

about no command line needed

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 07:39 PM
i'm a new happy linux user. i started using the Gnome GUI (out of the box red hat linux bibble CD) but i found it to be pretty unstable, it hanged at least 1 time for day(i don't know why but i was too lazy to find out) so i decided to try the KDE. that's when i noticed that KDE doesn't have a fancy GUI file roller that Gnome, but i found it to be much more stable it hasn't hanged once yet. (at least not that i'm aware of, if i'm wrong would some one be so kind to send the name of this application to w_olfgan_g@yahoo.com). anyway the point of all this is if u use KDE how would u unzip a mail attachment with out using command line. that's only one case of the many more i'm sure command line is still needed for, and so in my humble opinion a linux user would still have to know some command line (although i think linux distro's should strive to make the command line not a necesity, just a matter of choice ). also for compile and make as not all programs comes with fancy intallation progams.

#

Re:about no command line needed

Posted by: markp1950 on January 05, 2004 08:22 PM
I used the command line alot in Dos, and hated the gui.... I lost the need for the command line in WIN so I got used to not using it...

So now I only use the command line a VERY LITTLE bit now...

For Mandrake I still use it to set up urpmi, which is just copy paste. I used to use it for urpmi to load programs, but have found software installer for Mandrake is easier than the command line, but still use it to set up urpmi, at least untill MDK finds a way to click and run the urpmi setup...

Other than that, I do a df for disk space, and a "w" to check my uptime. Other than that everything is click 'n run, including software installation....

MarkP

#

Re:about no command line needed

Posted by: wabautista on January 05, 2004 08:55 PM
There is Ark for unzipping files in KDE

#

Re:about no command line needed

Posted by: Richo25 on January 06, 2004 03:18 AM
Hi

    Simply save the attachment in say your home directory or where ever you feel like it.
Now in KDE from the file browser you can simply right click on the file you saved and select extract here.
This will open the file in the Ark application for you to check it or change where you want it to be extracted to. Hit OK and your new files should be there for you.
Some compressed formats like tar.gz can actually be clicked on and opened/explored (temporarily) from the actual file browser.

BTW what did you mean that 'KDE doesn't have a fancy GUI file roller'
I find nautalis to be terrible as far as file browsing goes, but thats just me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

Richard
rtresidd@tresar.hopto.org

#

Re:about no command line needed

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 03:49 AM
you can also run gnome apps from the kde environment. To run the gnome app file-roller, simply type "file-roller" on the command line.

#

Re:about no command line needed

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 04:23 AM
As someone mentioned above, KDE has Ark, and it should have a menu but they screwed up. As a temporary measure you could make a link to it from the desktop ("Create new.../Link to Application", with ark as the command in the "Execute" tab).

Redhat is not especially user friendly, and it's Gnome centric, so the KDE side isn't tested so well. I think you were unlucky with the Gnome environment, as it worked great for me in both RH8 and RH9.

If you ever get bored with RH, and fancy something designed for normal users, with cool applications and easy configuration, then try Suse, Mandrake, Mepis, ArkLinux, or Knoppix; all very good.

#

Being at the mercy of your software.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 08:23 PM
Well, I really like your article. It has some very coherent arguments regarding comandline. It really isn't going to go away. But it definately is going to become less and less necessary.

However, I do have to remeber the Free Software in general engenders, or even better, requires a different posture from the user itself.

For microsoft, or apple, or any other proprietary software company, it is interesting -- not to say necessary -- to make users dependent on them. They can't live off software on its own. So, they must resort to many tricks to always keep up their profit: 1.they need to provide support. 2. they need to "inovate" their product. 3. They need to convince the user that this inovation is necessary. 4. Theses inovations must be so radical that users who user this new software have no compatibility with users of the previous software. This way, everyone is forced to upgrade.

In Free Softwrae, and consequently with GNU/Linux machines, the tendency is exactly the oposite. Open standarts mean that i can be running a 486 with an old version of OpenOffice, and still be compatible with someone runing a PowerMac G5 with Abiword. It also means that the general interface, or rather the concept of that interface, does not change.

So anything a GNU user learns, be it in a command line or with the GUI, still applies to all other versions. Bottom line is free software users are better computer users, because they are not at the mercy of the proprietary vendour. It means that users will eventually be so familiar with everything in the OS, that they probably won't be scared by a command line prompt.

In fact, they probably will understand much better how the whole system works, that they won't be scared by error messages, or failed warnings. Windows users are always scared of that, and always willing to pick up the phone and place a call for Bill.

Its no wonder that Linux Users are percieved as geeks. They learn computer scientist concepts just by the simple use of Free Software. And that alone is in perfect harmony with the concept of Free Software. Knowledge is power, and linux empowers users, not only in relation to the software they are using, but the knowledge they need to use that software.

#

Re:Being at the mercy of your software.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 11, 2004 07:54 AM
"Its no wonder that Linux Users are percieved as geeks. They learn computer scientist concepts just by the simple use of Free Software."

You're missing the point, the average person simply is not interested in learning * any * computer science concepts.

#

spelling mistake...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 08:48 PM
it has to be wisenheimer/weisenheimer but not weisenhimer...

#

Re:spelling mistake...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2004 08:18 AM
What are you, some kind of wiesenhiemer?

#

Linux without a GUI

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 09:40 PM
Don't forget that today Linux is mostly used as a server. In our company, we are using Linux servers without an X system or any GUI application. This is one of the reasons we are using Linux! I am also using Linux on the desktop (gentoo linux) and yes, i try to do more and more with point and click. So, my daily battle is to be a Linux user on the desktop and to be a admin -programmer on the server systems. I think it's time for the geeks to learn them both, or we will be the last ones on earth that knows how to use the GUI applications!

#

Awesome Article, And It's True!

Posted by: charleyb on January 05, 2004 10:12 PM
Awesome Article. And, it's true! Good GUIs are
*great*, and *essential*, and that never
minimizes the command line. And, I *also* am
tired of the defensive, "Go build it yourself!"
when core project developers get constructive
feedback on their project.

I'm a hard core programmer, C++, back-end big
systems, distributed application processing,
live-and-die on vim, loving the command line for
regression testing, enjoying my KDE and pop-up
free Mozilla. I've installed/used Mandrake,
RedHat, and Gentoo, and am now looking at Debian.

I learned a long time ago in the workplace that
when somebody walks up and says, "Do you know
how to install a new print spooler for my new
printer?", the answer should be, "NO!" It doesn't
matter if I know how or not: I don't want to
be Mr. SysAdmin. I have other work to do.

Gimme a distro where I can get my development
environment up, I don't have to know about the
little idiosyncracies for where this current
distro likes to put its files different from that
other distro, and let me get to work.

I typically run 6-8 command shells simultaneously,
sometimes 10+ (running around source directories,
simultaneously editing 3+ pairs of *.hpp and
*.cpp, a build window, one or more execution
windows, sometimes '-tail' windows for my logs,
and server log windows). I love my vim. But,
gimme the GUI for system config... I don't *ever*
want to remember what mount points are for my
CDs, because I have other things to think about!
I've got dozens of one- and two-line scripts
that I've created because I don't even want to
be slowed down with remembering a few switches
and parameters... Automate! Ensure consistency!
Guaranteed documentation (beyond your<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.history)!

Believe it or not, folks, you're not *supposed*
to put 'kill -9' or 'rm -f' into 'muscle memory'
by typing it all day! You're going to hurt
yourself.

Nice article!

#

Command line is not "DOS"

Posted by: ruohtula on January 05, 2004 10:21 PM
I agree with much of the article. A consumer Linux distribution should be usable without having to type commands, and many modern distros are -- until some larger problem pops up. I have found the GUI veneer is unfortunately a bit fragile, and still needs work. While the Linux kernel is nearly bullet-proof, the GUI layer isn't. If the X11 server gets stuck, the machine is totally wedged from the point of view of a naive "GUI-only" user, even if the kernel (which sees the X11 server as just another application) is still running fine. This needs a solution.

However saying that if one prefers command line one could go back to 8088 and DOS is just stupid. The Linux command line is infinitely more powerful than the one in DOS, or even in Windows NT/2000/XP (maybe it is those bad implementations that have given the command line a bad reputation).

I believe that while it should not be foisted on users that do not want to know about it, it should still be promoted, because it empowers users. It allows a user willing to learn something new to automate repetitive tasks. No GUI interface I have ever seen permits one to conveniently perform a set of operations on a large number of files.

One old critique of GUIs has stuck to my mind: GUIs are like going back to the times before the invention of speech, when people had to point and gesture instead of being able to say what they mean. GUI interfaces have improved since then, but the critique is still largely valid. A GUI-only system is less powerful than one that also makes a command language available.

#

depends on what you want to do

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 10:22 PM
Sometimes its faster to click a desktop icon, sometimes its faster to use the command line. Use the right tool for the job. I don't know a lot cli, but its easy to learn the basics and once you know how to use for loops etc. your laughing at how easy complex file tasks become.

#

Use the right tool for the job

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 11:00 PM
Obviously it makes more sense to click an icon to play a CD than type some commands. Same goes for typing and printing a letter. I use openoffice, but I know people who are adamant on doing all their typesetting in latex. But there are some tasks for which graphical interfaces can never give the power of command line tools. vi is on the (very small) list of old-school programs that I'm unlikely to ever give up. wget is another.


The right tool for the job. The simple things simple, and the difficult things possible.

#

Re:Use the right tool for the job

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 04:40 AM
workbone doesn't take long to type (even less time if you make an alias) and plays cd's pretty nicely from the command line<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)

#

There will be a separation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 05, 2004 11:15 PM
I think there will be a separation between the GUI users and the CLI users.

What I mean is, the same set of basic, non-GUI tools will be used in every GNU/Linux system, and the differences between them (the distros) are just how they're packaged. We see this like the Slackware-Debian-* vs. Fedora-SUSE-Mandrake-* differences we have now. So I think there will be two great groups of distros aimed at two widely different markets.

One group, which consists of the distros designed for easy use, will be targeted at "normal" users and GUI developers. I mean, those developers that develop software for "normal" users.

The other group consists of the distros designed with simplicity in mind. These will be for "advanced" users and developers. "Advanced" users are those who have mastered the GUI and want to learn more. And the developers here are more likely to develop software for themselves, since they are not so keen on developing in the GUI.

So I think the development of the Linux world will be the GUI getting better, and the CLI getting more powerful. I don't think that would be revolutionary, "evolutionary" would be more accurate.

#

Who's the wisenheimer here?

Posted by: ccchips on January 06, 2004 12:02 AM
Why in the Hell do I keep having to remind you anti-command-line bigots that there are people out here who can't see well enough to use a mouse for everything?

If you insist on driving everyone into the ground with this GUI stuff, than you'd bloody well better be sure to make the keyboard do everything without someone needing to touch a mouse, or you'll lose me again.

The power of the command line is the *only* reason I've advocated for Linux. If you people keep up this bigotry, I can do just the opposite, just as I did with Microsoft. And Linux is *not* in that good of a position that MS couldn't squash it like a bug, given enough support.

Now, cut it out!

#

Re:Who's the wisenheimer here?

Posted by: Richo25 on January 06, 2004 03:31 AM
Just a bit of a slight nudge here,
but are you reading this webpage from the command line<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
I use the command line a hell of a lot but I think that some people have gone slightly defensive about one or the other.
I use the GUI for most every day things and the command line (in a nice GUI shell window, or an SSH login or right down at runlevel 1) for the tasks that require it. You don't compile software from a GUI interface you use the CLI although you can start and stop tasks from the gui you don't because you want to see any error reports. etc etc
LINUX is not just a CLI it is a LOT more, stop trying to hold it back....

#

Re:Who's the wisenheimer here?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 04:29 AM
Well, I just created this reply using lynx from the console. Please remember that there are folks who either have poor eyesight or no eysight at all that rely on character-based software like lynx and text-to-speech programs in order to use computers. AFAIK, the GUI equivalent of this sort of setup works very poorly or not at all. Let's not leave those people out in the cold, eh?

#

Re:Who's the wisenheimer here?

Posted by: smitty45 on January 06, 2004 05:25 AM
I really don't think that anyone could be seriously suggesting that the command line will go away, ever.

#

Re:Who's the wisenheimer here?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 10:02 PM
Then what's the point of the article? Surely Robin can't simply be saying that some|many|most users can get by without a command line. That is so obviously true and thoroughly uninteresting as to be silly.

#

Re:Who's the wisenheimer here?

Posted by: ccchips on January 06, 2004 11:08 PM
I would rather be using the command line, but unfortunately, the PTB at this location wouldn't look too kindly on my using anything else (e.g. Lynx.)

Besides, the browser I'm using is very keyboard-friendly, though it could be better.

#

Re:Who's the wisenheimer here?

Posted by: Richo25 on January 07, 2004 04:12 AM
hahaha
Have you had a run in with a mouse in the past<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)

Yes I use the keyboard where ever I know a short cut aswell.. Less time comsuming for a heck of a lot of tasks. I don't think that it will ever get replaced as it is the most efficient way to do most things on a computer.
But the mouse is good for other things and I use it for them, I don't ever thing the command line will disapear from linux, and most applications that I have seen have a nice CL interface to them which is good for little old scripts.

#

A minor exception to "never to anything..."

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 12:33 AM

You claim at one point "And once you have one of these systems, there is no need -- ever -- to do anything beyond point and click until the thing breaks down and either gets sent off to a repair shop or gets replaced by a newer model."


This is most emphatically not true.
It is always necessary to apply security patches, regardless of OS-of-choice, even in a desktop environment.


While GNU/Linux systems are arguably considerably more secure than OS-which-are-not-GNU/Linux, the irresponsible attitude that updates are somehow unnecessary should not be promoted to users of any OS.


Fortunately, pretty much every GNU/Linux distribution these days has a nice GUI for performing this task as well.

#

Re:A minor exception to "never to anything..."

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 02:45 AM
I can apply security patches with nothing more than point and click. Heck, I installed with nothing more than point and click. Therefore nothing more than point and click is needed until I change systems.

#

True, in a restricted sense

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 12:58 AM
Only because the article claims to discuss "Is the command line necessary for most Linux users?" I posit that Robin reaches a fallacious conclusion because he's distracted by this restricted analysis.

While it's superficially true that "most Linux users" can get by without the command line, this does not imply, perforce, that Linux doesn't need to have a command line (which seems to be the abstraction that Robin wants us to draw.) The command line is indispensible for many Linux users. As a consequence, I suggest that it is incontrovertible that Linux needs to offer a command line that is mature and powerful. The fact of the matter is that most users, once they've reached a certain stage of development, will get sick of clicking on 100 files in sequence to rename each of them individually when they can do the same thing, say, in a few seconds via the command line.

To suggest that the (superficially true) fact that most Linux users don't need to use the command line is equivalent to the fact that Linux has somehow outgrown the command line is simply a flawed conclusion.

#

Re:True, in a restricted sense

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 01:05 AM
Right. Same as you can say that most Linux users don't need source code. Just because most users don't use source code doesn't mean that the source code is not necessary to all users. If ALL users were not granted the right and ability to access source if they want, Linux would be dead. In the same way, Linux without the CLI is dead, dead, dead. This is what happens when someone looks at something with blinders like roblimo's done, sadly.

#

Re:True, in a restricted sense

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 02:17 AM
I don't think robin said that linux has outgrown the commandline.. he just means that for the GUI-using (l)user the GUI-interface is adequate for *their* tasks.

#

Re:True, in a restricted sense

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 11:05 AM
While it's superficially true that "most Linux users" can get by without the command line, this does not imply, perforce, that Linux doesn't need to have a command line (which seems to be the abstraction that Robin wants us to draw.)

I actually don't think that's what he's trying to say at all. What he is trying to say is that some people have a different style of working that is more graphical and don't find the memorization of random series of commands to be fun or entertaining. For these people, a GUI is where it's at (cf. the whole rise of Apple computer and the subsequent cult following). The key point is that Linux needs to grow up and accommodate both. Thankfully, folks like Ximian "get it" and are evolving the system in the right direction.

Frankly, I'm more of a GUI user, but I hate Windows because it doesn't have a decent command line. I love Linux because it offers me the ability to work with graphics AND a CLI when I want/need to.

#

Unix CLI is where the power is.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 02:22 AM
For basic tasks, the GUI is nice, but it makes it hard to show how Linux is different from Windows. The Unix "everything is a file" philosophy combined with the pipe make for a very powerful system. Both have their strengths, but the Unix CLI is what makes it a compelling system.

#

Command Line Fear

Posted by: Christopher M. Williams on January 06, 2004 02:24 AM
Why are users so afraid of command lines? I've seen this phobia in sooooo many people. It reminds me of people who are afraid to pop the hood and check their own oil, as if they needed to know how to service the engine to pop the hood at all. The fact is, the command line is part of basic computer skills under any OS. It should be part of anyone's computer training. They don't have to know how to write batch files or shell scripts, or even know the majority of the commands off the top of their heads, but even the latest versions of Windows have some functions that can only be done from the command line, or optional switches which aren't available in the GUI. 95% of all tasks can be done with the GUI now on GNU/Linux, Windows, MacOS but I am tired of people talking about the command line like it's some dinosaur that needs to be put down because it outlived it's age. Yes, most tasks should have a GUI shortcut, but until voice recognition technology advances to the point that all commands can be vocal, there are some things you can do from a console that you just can't do by clicking on an icon. For power users, chaining commands together and redirecting output is irreplacable. Even Apple and Microsoft, whose products are known by their GUIs, realize this and Apple maintained full BSD console support in OS X while Microsoft is adding a better shell scripting capabilites to Longhorn with MSH. So I guess what I'm saying is this: the command line is not a bad thing, and we should appreciate the freedom to choose between GUI and CLI.

#

Re:Command Line Fear

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 05:26 AM
Why are people afraid of command lines? I suggest that it's because most people's experience of command lines is DOS. DOS is so limited that it's no wonder that many people develop a phobia about CLIs.

If you've been using BASH or another shell for a while, find a Windows system and try to do some work in DOS. You'll have no trouble understanding why the phobia exists.

#

Because...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 11:11 AM
Command lines offer little to no prompting.

If you suddenly have to reconfigure the "Beezleblat" and you're using the command line, all you see is "user-foo$ _" so what do you do now?

If you're using a GUI, you open up the "Start" menu, navigate to "System Tools" and look for something that says "Beezleblat Reconfigurator" and try it. The GUI will then have buttons and fields which will prompt you.

Now, if you reconfigure "Beezleblats" all day long, you'll find the CLI much easier. Just type, "reconf-beezle -x randomparm -y anotherrandomparm" and you have it. No need to move your hands from the keyboard. If you only do this once a year, you'll probably have it all reconfigured using the GUI before you're able to type "man reconf-beezle," then "info reconf-beezle," when you find out all the good docs are in info format, and then finally compose the exact command you need.

There is no One Right Way here. It highly depends on the task at hand, how often the user performs that task, and how comfortable users are with computers.

#

Don't forget the blind

Posted by: Joe Klemmer on January 06, 2004 03:02 AM
GUIs are all nice and pretty but don't forget, as someone posted earlier, that the vision impared (especially the blind) need an interface that works with a screen reader.


It's true that most home and non-technical users will be able to do what they need without ever seeing the bash prompt, sysadmins and developers will always need the command line. It's really mich faster to do things there (when you know what you need and how to use the shell) than with a GUI. I've debated this with the Mac Heads at work. With a side by side comparison, doing server admin and development things is faster in the CLI than in a GUI, be it X or OS X or WinXX. This with people extremely profishant in each of their own environments.


<TT>
--

If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place!
</TT>

#

been there/done that

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 04:23 AM
though not a Linux distro - there's Macintosh OS X that fulfills all the needs you seem to want Linux to develop. You can point/click to your heart's content to get things done, but there's also command line available for those who prefer that route.

There was an article at<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. way way back asking "Is OSX what Linux wants to be?"

#

hmm

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 04:49 AM
currently....yes. Most users DO need the command line. Ive tried and tested multiple GUI's for linux (multiple being the main window managers, KDE, Gnome etc) and none of them are up to the job yet. They have a tendancy to hang, or worse, crash and will frustrate newer users (especially ones useing older hardwar). When the GUI's mature and become more stable, then I'd change my answer, but for now I think the command line is a must for most users. I find myself using it in KDE because there are some things that would take too long (or I can't figure out how to do) in the GUI all the time. Maybe this just means that it all needs to be made a simpler so that the average windows user could find what they wanted. I don't know. I quite like the way they're going right now (I'm easily pleased by shiney ne things<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) but there would have to be a lot of work done for me to even contemplate "abondoning" the command line.

#

Well, I almost agree.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 05:01 AM
I agree with most of it, except for one thing.

The author says "I always considered the "scratch your own itch" hacker ethos an essentially masturbatory thing. It would be like me writing articles *I* want to read instead of articles I think *you* want to read."

Well, Robin, articles and code are extremely different things. For one thing, articles are 100% useles for the author, unless someone else reads them, whicle code can be 100% useful for the author even if noone else has tried it.

I would say itīs like comparing apples and oranges, except... well, both are fruits and we compare them whenever we choose what fruit to buy. This is a less comparable pair.

For example, I am probably the only user of KRsN in the world. But it *is* useful for me. It saves me almost an hour a day, so I wrote it.

On the other hand, I will contradict myself: articles almost noone reads (like this one<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-) are useful for shaping oneīs mind, although thatīs not a frequent goal.

On the gripping hand[1], masturbation is good, dude. Donīt slam it unless you have never done it. And if you have never done it, donīt slam what you donīt know<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

In fact, programming because it itches is... well, itīs like scratching. It may even be bad for you, but donīt tell me it doesnīt feel good.

[1] One geek credit to the one who catches the reference.

--
Roberto Alsina (http://pycs.net/lateral

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Needed?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 05:18 AM
Do people need a command line for most day-to-day work? No, not really. The command line can be faster for some things, but that's all.

Will everyone eventually need to use the command line for something? Yep. Sooner or later, you'll be in deep doo-doo, and the only way out will be to start typing in a Bash shell. And, if you're really lucky, you'll have screwed up your machine so bad you can only reboot to a command-line login prompt, and have to use VIM to fix what you messed up.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!

Of course, if you really don't want to learn the basics of the CLI, you can always reformat your hard drive and re-install Linux whenever things go wrong! But then, if you're going to do that all the time, you might as well be running Windows.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

 

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Re:Needed?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 05:50 AM
"Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!"

Sheesh! All I got was a core-dump.

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Rap? Wha Chu Say?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 05:36 AM
If he's going to compare Linux to Rap, I'm gonna get Medieval on him.

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Typos

Posted by: dachazter on January 06, 2004 05:59 AM
Just an observation -- not a value judgement!

Most of the postings here are riddled with typographic errors (misspellings, poor punctuation, etc). Typos happen, that's why we all use spell checkers.

Command lines work only when the commands are typed *precisely*, not just approximately. For short commands (eg "vi") human error isn't going to loom large as a potential problem. But for some of the longer commands that have are used as examples in some of the posts, the potential for typos is larger, and thus the potential for command line failure and the need to troubleshoot and retry. That's not something casual/business users are going to like doing (does anyone, really?).

GUIs seem to me to be quite a bit more forgiving of humanness because generally they only require *approximate* correctness (mouse clicks can succeed within a range of screen real estate, not just one pixel out of the whole screen).

Aside from the fact that GUIs relieve casual/business users from the need to learn and remember non-intuitive command line text strings, don't GUIs offer everyone the day to day usability advantage of being more or less forgiving of error-prone humanness than command lines?

Ending with a question -- is there any technical or business reason why Linux distributors would need to remove command line functionality from their GUI distributions? Or can they easily and economically provide all the GUI innovations they want and still easily and economically retain command line functionality for users who want it?

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Re:Typos

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 07, 2004 07:43 PM
what are you talking about, of course the GNU/Linux command line can be forgiving.

there is command and filename completion.

and with Bash's programmable completions you can even use the tab button to complete command line options on popular commands

then there is the ability to use aliases and scripts to store complex commands so you never need to type them all again.

and if you want there is also spell-checking ability in bash.

and most command line options have short aliases which are hard to get wrong.

then there is accurate feedback from bash and respective commands on what exactly was wrong with the command.

and you can alywas do foo --help or man foo to quickly remind yourself of the syntax.

hell you can use a fuzy version of grep and run 'foo --help | fgrep borkedoption' and it'll find it for you.

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It isn't black or white.

Posted by: RitterWolf on January 06, 2004 06:19 AM

I was going to write my computing history, but I doubt people would be interested. Here's the rub: What you use, depends on who you are.



As a coder, I use both worlds. Eclipse for writing Java, gvim/kate for writing PHP, SQL and C/C++, ant/make from a bash prompt to build, and either scp, or Konqueror and the SFTP protocol to deploy.This is for a programmer



As a system administrator, I use bash, and the command line tools to do most things. The exceptions being setting up CUPS, and Samba. I can set up Samba by hand, but it takes ages. No such luck with CUPS, but I can fiddle the config by hand a bit. This is for a sysadmin



On the other hand, if I want to get my dear old mum to use my network, and have any chance of getting her to use Linux for everything except games only available on Windows, the command line is not an option. It means I'll have to create some sort of tool to let her dial out (modem on my router, no GUI tool I know of handles that nicely). But all is not lost! She has been using Star Office for about 3 years now to do her resume and keep her budget. Its not all going M$'s way.



My points:


  • For a normal user, a good, stable GUI is essential. A receptionist does not need a command line. Neither does your average home user.

  • For a power user, a good, powerful shell is essential. For me its bash. I'm sure the C shells are great, but I've never tried them. Maybe I will one day.




And finally, before the GUI wars start again, I use GNOME and KDE. They both have features that I like. If I ever convert my mum, and get her using Linux, its her choice what GUI she uses. And my dialer tool will be written in such a way that it makes her life easier.



Whatever it is you do, do it your way. Just try not to get ripped off in the process, either financially, or through lack of features, and/or choice.

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Re:It isn't black or white.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 08, 2004 02:48 PM
You're pretty much bang on. However, Bash is for any power user regardless of role. There's a little up front learning, but the payoff lasts ages. I get a little annoyed with people who have little or no knowledge of bash bashing bash. Being able to use Linux without resorting to command line is essential for widespread adoption of Linux, because people don't want to make an investment in learning that will more than pay off over the long haul, and if they can't, they won't use Linux. Consequently I'm glad there's a graphical option now for just about everything essential. However, a literate interface like the command line is the closest thing we have to being able to just tell the computer to do stuff. Until we have AI's that understand spoken utterances it will be superior to the graphical interface for most things.

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Question

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 06:53 AM
If the GUI is the end all be all of interface design, then why is Microsoft (king of the gui people) adding and enhanced command line to its server products?

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Define Command Line?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 07:13 AM
Most people see bash as the command line on linux what about mc(midnight commandar). I have found the people not use to dos and the old system find mc simpler to use on systems where it works. Then if it will be good linuxconf else show them how to use a text only webbrowers and start webadmin. Now in most cases they get around fine and find it simpler to fix things less commands to learn.

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there goes another one of my article ideas...

Posted by: Mike(y) on January 06, 2004 08:45 AM
Well put.

I had started writing an article expressing similar sentiments. Oh well<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

I have settled on SuSE for my workplace - it was the easiest "sell" to make to management for the following reasons:

    - It had commercial packaging

    - It offers commercial support

    - It can be run entirely by GUIs (for normal day-to-day operation)

Since we are targeting our Linux developments to companies (and government) that don't have much experience with *nix - these things are good selling points, especially the last one.
We can go to a client and show them a nice GUI that has a small learning curve for their sysadmins and it is more likely to fly than showing them a shell.

That being said, it is important to note that GUIs are largely static things. If something unexpected happens, or if you want to do some tuning that the GUI doesn't cater for - then a shell is your best friend!

For greater acceptance of Linux in the corporate (and government) world, it is important to show benefits that the decision makers can appreciate, such as things like an easy to use admin GUI, commercial support and "lots of 9s" (ie high uptime).

Mike

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identifying linux workstation

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 08:48 AM
When u walk into a computer lab full of ppl<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... How do u recognize a linux box & ms box ?

The user/hackers that actively typing are on linux & those clicking massively are on ms.

I guess these fact is slowly evolving<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... well I need to find a new way to identify linux now<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P

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What's Bash?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 08:48 AM
I've been running LindowsOS full time for the last several months and love it. I've never heard of "Bash." I'm serious. I have NO idea what that is, yet I do everything I want to do with my computer.

Tag

#

Different responses from the Linux crew !

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 09:31 AM
Thank you Robin for an interesting perspective and for stirring up an educating debate!

It is interesting to see how I, not using Linux, read your article completely differently from members of the Linux crew. To me, your message is: "If all you Linux loving people want to see a dramatic increase in adoption of Linux, you better start making the system and applications usable also for those not knowledgeable in CLI".

The Linux crew has alternative interpretations: "STOP THE THIEF! HE RAN THAT WAY! HE HAS MY COMMAND LINE! PLEASE STOP HIM!". Don't worry, I do not think Robin is going to hurt your command line. Now - look up that cosy little terminal and see - your prompt is still there, right? You can go back to sleep now, honey...

The thoughtful, caring approach: "But sooner or later they will be in trouble, and they will HAVE to know CLI - you are making them a service by forcing the prompt on them by day one!" Errr, may I stick with this bug-ridden, crashing, non-secure and proprietary-by-the-monopolist excuse for software, UNTIL I NO LONGER WILL GET IN THE KIND OF TROUBLE THAT NEEDS *CLI* TO BE FIXED?

Another stereotype: "But if you have a THOUSAND files and want to rename them - what do you do with your GUI? Huh? Not so cocky anymore, right? Huhu...". Jesus Christ - renaming files - is that your day job?

Even more: "But as the user gets to know more about his system and starts to interact with it, eventually he will want to get closer, to understand more and part-take in the ongoing events on a deeper level..." Don't do more joints, dude - you've had enough! And by the way, you're wrong. I just want to write text, put illustrations in it, read news on the internet, do some bank business and perhaps play a game if the wheater is bad. I get my "interaction" somewhere else, STS.

You may wonder why I read things like this when I am so scournful? Well, as you may gather, it is kind of fun... But the real reason is I may want to start using Linux. I am gathering information to see if it will suit my purposes. In me, there is no innate wish to decipher unintelligible letter and number combinations for days just to get a printer going, to recompile kernels, to write down powerful commands on the command line and other things that are system-centric. ***** I want to spend time SOLVING problems WITH my computer, not WORKING on problems IN my computer! *****

I do get worried when I see all this emotional defensiveness towards any suggestions of change. But as Robert pointed out, the rational people in the Linux crew arenīt wired that way and are working on solutions instead of wining! So, perhaps I will one day pay to get Linux...

#

Re:Different responses from the Linux crew !

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 10:37 AM
I wouldn't call you scornful, I'd call you smug. It must be gratifying to you to be able to speak with so much confidence, all the while from a position of total ignorance. By your own admission, you don't use Linux so you have no idea what a Linux command line is or does.

BTW, it was I who posted about renaming files. For clarity, I said "100 files" not "a THOUSAND files" as you so hyperbolically misconstrued. You see, and this is but one example, I have a digital camera that, for whatever reason, saves files with an incomprehensible name and there's no way for me to change this. When I download the pics, I end up with 50 to 100 files like spx30060001.jpg, spx20060002.jpg... I find these filenames not very revealing. But, from the Linux command line, I can rename any number of these files to something far more meaningful with ONE command! Something like XMasinTO2003-0001.jpg, XmasinTO2003-0002.jpg, etc. Now, you can belittle this for your own self-aggrandisement, if that turns your crank, but I've actually had the experience of trying to do this on a Windows box so I'm not speaking from a position of utter and abject ignorance as are you.

So, sneer all you want. I guess it's like mental masturbation for you or something. The only thing I'd suggest is that you try it before you knock it...

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Re:Different responses from the Linux crew !

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 02:57 PM
So you are telling my that an everyday Linux user doesn't need bash to kill a rogue process every once and a while?

When was the last time you killed a process using bash? Or is there a GUI for that now?

-Tgraupmann

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Re:Different responses from the Linux crew !

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 06, 2004 07:25 PM
Umm, actually there are two that I use, and quite frequently. One is xkill, which will kill any windowed process, and the other is ksysguard.

Whilst a simple $ kill process is rather nice (and I have nothing against it at all!) clicking a rogue window to death without having to ps first is sooooo satisfying...

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Re:Different responses from the Linux crew !

Posted by: Sam Leathers on January 07, 2004 03:20 PM
ps first??? your living in the dark ages!!!
killall -9 process_name

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Re:Different responses from the Linux crew !

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 07, 2004 07:52 PM
sorry but it seems you are still living in the 20th century

its

killall -9 [tab]

to see a list of all running process's and decide which one to kill today.

(thats if you use programmable completions)

#

command line = worth having

Posted by: dukeinlondon on January 06, 2004 06:45 PM
I am a point and click person myself but I had to learn some command line tricks many years ago, working on solaris and I am glad I did, just because it's a very practical tool. I also learnt command line ftp and that has been a life saver as well as Perl and SQL queries, all command line.

My experience with it is that if you can sort of touch type and have an average memory, then it is really easy. Most people who hate command line can type 2 words without 3 typos.

It think the point with command line tools is that there is very little to learn. Once you know su, ls, cd, ps, grep, more, vi (about 5 commands to know in vi) (or another shell editor), top, you can tackle a lot of things.

You have to think of it as the pen and paper of graphic arts. With a few color pencils and a sheet of paper, it's a lot quicker to do your first drawing than if you use a professional tools. There is a progression.

Oh, and the thing I find is missing in most Gui tool are the handles to drive them using external tools. So they have to include things like scheduling within the application. So instead of learning one type of scheduler, you have to learn each scheduler that each application comes with....

Anyway, I use mdk 9.2 because it does most things in graphical tools. So you can like command line and still like the intuitivity of a well laid out gui application.

#

Interesting Experiment, Bad Conclusions

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 07, 2004 07:11 AM
Roblimo has chosen to perform an interesting experiment, one that, if adhered to, will provide a great benefit to open source software. Unfortunately, using only the GUI limits you to being able to do what the GUI is capable of doing. For instance, I've had to write dozens of scripts to burn CDs and DVDs properly, as the GUIs available, for one reason or another, are unable to do this. Nevertheless, the GUI programs, including xcdroast and arson, provide working examples of how to burn CDs. Both CLI and GUI have their advantages. As others have mentioned, doing things like renaming a bunch of files can be much easier in a CLI. On the other hand, I don't ever want to go back to reading USENET news with whatever CLI client I was using back in the 80's.

Unfortunately, he's wrong in assuming that recent progress in GUIs is due to some maturation process on the part of programmers. We are, by and large, an egotistical and contentious lot - prone to having firmly held opinions and passions that don't stand up to rigorous inspection. After all, if we didn't have egos there probably wouldn't be all this marvelous free software available. Ego and passion are what motivates you when there's no money involved, which is often the case for OSS. Even in middle age, most of us are still kids when it comes to what interests us.

What has changed in the last few years is the availability of the open source tools needed to build the programs Roblimo uses. Six years ago, I required a stable and portable desktop environment. There was one choice: CDE. Now, there are at least three alternatives - GNOME, KDE, and XFCE. Each is more capable than CDE ever was, and each is also completely OSS. Each required several years to go from an interesting concept to a mature, useful environment. Without these desktop toolkits, building programs such as Bluefish, Pan, Konqueror, Koffice, and Evolution would not have been possible.

I also find the logic that if you want to use a CLI, why not use MS-DOS to be specious, to say the least. After all, if I just wanted to putter around in a GUI all day, why not use Windows, or a Mac? There are reasons we choose our platforms that have little to do with the programming or graphical environment itself, and a lot to do with what other things come with it - like stability and reliability. Sometimes, these things are worth the extra time and effort involved.

#

BSD Unix

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 07, 2004 02:32 PM
you say
"A consumer-level BSD Unix might be developed."

or have already been developed, that would be MacOS X
(or maybe it isn't 'Unix' because it doesn't come
with fortune and gcc by default, heh.)

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Re:BSD Unix

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 07, 2004 07:59 PM
it doesn't come with a BSD kernel at all, it is not BSD

is it a Unix? maybe depends on how you define Unix

does it have loads of BSD in it, yes but it also has loads of GNU in it and nobody is pointing that out.

but unless all core components are BSD based it is not BSD, now you may not believe the kernel is the OS (I agree I call it GNU/Linux) but it is hard to believe that the kernel is not part of the OS.

Mac OS X, is BSD/Darwin with other components from GNU, Apple and others.

#

Gui isn't needed but it is nice

Posted by: matteh99 on January 14, 2004 10:58 AM
Started using Mandrake linux a few years ago and I had no real trouble with the gui stuff. I knew nothing about the shell. I have slowly learned it and now that I know it some things are easier in it.

Occationaly I would want to make a change that require root access and I used to have to logout completely and log back in as root. Now I figured out how to 'su' and then run and app like gedit to change a config file or somthing.

Overall I would say no the command line isn't necessary but being able to do basic commands can be very useful.
su
startx
ls
cd
sh

and the TAB fills in the rest of the line for you.

I don't know how many times I typed NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-4496-pkg2.run.txt (or somthing simalar) not knowing I could type N 'TAB' and get the whole thing.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

On a different note

One of the things I don't like about linux is having to compile your own software for some programs. It allways seems to end up needing another package which also needs to be compiled. Then that one needs another one and so on.

Also driver installs. If software and drivers were easier to install and more avalible I would say that no one should ever bother using windows

Eric.

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