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Feature: Linux
Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
By Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
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January 12, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)
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RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- The U.S. popular image of Saudi Arabia has gone downhill over the last 50 years, from one of romantic horsemen riding free over the desert to one of oil-bloated sheiks who use their wealth to support terrorists. The reality here is, of course, as different from that stereotype image as the reality of the U.S. is from the stereotype the rest of the world gets from TV. You never see mainstream TV programs talking about U.S. Linux developers, for example. You never see Arabian Linux developers on TV, either, but they are here, wearing white robes and headdresses, proudly showing off their new (GPL) software to visitors, lobbying the government to adopt more Linux, and working to build businesses based on open source.
I'm typing this in the Riyadh Sheraton. I am here primarily to speak at a National IT Plan conference, as a guest of the Saudi Linux Users Group and the Saudi Computer Society. I will be speaking about how to make money with open source and free software, a popular topic in a country whose de facto ruler, Prince Abdullah, has decreed that the IT sector will become an important economic factor within the next decade.
We'll explore specifics of the country's IT plans -- and how Linux and open source fit into them -- over the next few days. This article is a bit of an "introduction to Saudi Arabian society" based on conversations with local Linux developers and advocates. Their names have been left out to keep any of them from getting in trouble with the local law; despite recent liberalizations this is still a country where a man caught driving his sister's friend home can be sentenced to receive a public whipping.
Indeed, this actually happened to one local Linux developer. The police caught him giving his sister's friend a ride and assumed they were dating, which violates religious statutes here. While we hear that it's not uncommon for young Saudi males to spend their evenings riding around in their cars, trying to pick up young Saudi females -- who sometimes allow themselves to be picked up (not necessarily for sex, but as a way to meet boys), even though this activity is illegal for both parties.
Our Linux developer managed to escape his lashing due to intervention by a liberal local politician, but he is still wary whenever he comes to one of the many government checkpoints that stop traffic all over this city to search for terrorists -- and keep an eye out for any other lawbreaking, too.
This is a "tight" country by world standards, even if not everyone sentenced to a lashing actually has the sentence carried out. There is (officially) no premarital or extramarital sex, no music, no dating, no alcohol, and no pornography. Indeed, if you click on a link in a piece of porn spam, even if you are a foreigner staying in a Sheraton, you get this message in both Arabic and English: "Access to the requested URL is not allowed! Please, fill out the form below if you believe the requested page should not be blocked."
What else is there to do here but become a great Linux hacker?
We won't answer that question today. Perhaps we will later this week.
Geeks are Geeks
It's the same the whole world over: There is a crowd that has glommed onto the idea of free software and feels obliged to promote it. That crowd is here in Riyadh, just as it is in the U.S., France, Malaysia, Mexico, Trinidad, India, China, and almost everywhere else.
Here, of course, Linux developers wear long, flowing robes in their workplaces; it's a tradition, just as suits and ties might be traditional business attire somewhere else. And for those of you who have noticed that men's flowing robes in this part of the world come in different colors, our local informants tell us these colors are purely personal style and do not signify rank or have a group association. In other words, if you switch from Linux to *BSD on your personal desktop, you don't need to go out and replace your favorite red and white checked headgear with green or beige.
Conversations with geeks in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are similar to conversations with geeks anywhere, and most of the ones I have met so far are smart, young, single men who are addicted to the problem-solving aspect of programming. Put them in the same clothes as the average U.S. programmer, send them to LinuxWorld in New York, and you wouldn't notice them in the crowd.
That's my basic message today: That while Saudi Arabia has enough terrorists and potential terrorists that the hotel where I'm staying is ringed with concrete barriers designed to thwart car bombs, and there are security checkpoints manned by armed soldiers scattered throughout the city and the surrounding countryside, there are also plenty of people here who worry about poor Mozilla support for javascript in Arabic (and other right-to-left languages), how to get more government agencies to use Linux, and other "geek-only" concerns. And no matter what you think of the Saudi government or some of this society's fringe members, if you met the local Linux geeks you would find them entirely likeable -- and just as smart as their counterparts in the rest of the world.
We'll explore specifics of the country's IT plans -- and how Linux and open source fit into them -- over the next few days. This article is a bit of an "introduction to Saudi Arabian society" based on conversations with local Linux developers and advocates. Their names have been left out to keep any of them from getting in trouble with the local law; despite recent liberalizations this is still a country where a man caught driving his sister's friend home can be sentenced to receive a public whipping.
Indeed, this actually happened to one local Linux developer. The police caught him giving his sister's friend a ride and assumed they were dating, which violates religious statutes here. While we hear that it's not uncommon for young Saudi males to spend their evenings riding around in their cars, trying to pick up young Saudi females -- who sometimes allow themselves to be picked up (not necessarily for sex, but as a way to meet boys), even though this activity is illegal for both parties.
Our Linux developer managed to escape his lashing due to intervention by a liberal local politician, but he is still wary whenever he comes to one of the many government checkpoints that stop traffic all over this city to search for terrorists -- and keep an eye out for any other lawbreaking, too.
This is a "tight" country by world standards, even if not everyone sentenced to a lashing actually has the sentence carried out. There is (officially) no premarital or extramarital sex, no music, no dating, no alcohol, and no pornography. Indeed, if you click on a link in a piece of porn spam, even if you are a foreigner staying in a Sheraton, you get this message in both Arabic and English: "Access to the requested URL is not allowed! Please, fill out the form below if you believe the requested page should not be blocked."
What else is there to do here but become a great Linux hacker?
We won't answer that question today. Perhaps we will later this week.
Geeks are Geeks
It's the same the whole world over: There is a crowd that has glommed onto the idea of free software and feels obliged to promote it. That crowd is here in Riyadh, just as it is in the U.S., France, Malaysia, Mexico, Trinidad, India, China, and almost everywhere else.
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| Saudi Linux Society co-founder Khaled Alghoneim at work |
Conversations with geeks in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are similar to conversations with geeks anywhere, and most of the ones I have met so far are smart, young, single men who are addicted to the problem-solving aspect of programming. Put them in the same clothes as the average U.S. programmer, send them to LinuxWorld in New York, and you wouldn't notice them in the crowd.
That's my basic message today: That while Saudi Arabia has enough terrorists and potential terrorists that the hotel where I'm staying is ringed with concrete barriers designed to thwart car bombs, and there are security checkpoints manned by armed soldiers scattered throughout the city and the surrounding countryside, there are also plenty of people here who worry about poor Mozilla support for javascript in Arabic (and other right-to-left languages), how to get more government agencies to use Linux, and other "geek-only" concerns. And no matter what you think of the Saudi government or some of this society's fringe members, if you met the local Linux geeks you would find them entirely likeable -- and just as smart as their counterparts in the rest of the world.
Comments
on Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robesNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
I object to that! For the past couple of years <A HREF="http://www.techtv.com/" TITLE="techtv.com">TechTV</a techtv.com> has provided Cable subscribers geeky shows about computers and advances in new technology. You should think before you speak. They have had many programmers, hackers, developers and lot's of other people on their shows, so it's no media conspiracy!
Geek roots out terrorism after full investigation
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 02:36 AMto one of oil-bloated sheiks who use their wealth to support terrorists. The reality here is, of course, as different from that stereotype image as the reality of the U.S. is from the stereotype the rest of the world gets from TV.
Wow! Are you saying that the government stopped teaching the radical Wahabi sect of religion in the schools?!?
Are you saying that the government stopped teaching their schoolchildren that infidels are a detriment to society? A threat that must be dealt with by Jihad? That nothing less than the total destruction of Israel is acceptable?
Are you saying that the majority of the terrorists involved with 9/11 aren't Saudis?!?
Wow! Reality as seen from a hotel room window for infidel foreigners really is different than the stereotype of Saudis!
Perhaps not including your view of terrorism and terrorism support in Saudi Arabia from your severely restricted travels and interactions would be a better idea for a geek writing a post, no?
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 02:58 AM
Sure! Just as soon as women are treated equally and foriegn workers aren't lured there to become slaves. Workers are shipped in from countries like bangladesh to perform work Saudis won't. Once they get there they are paid such a low wage they end up in debt to their saudi masters and can't leave. Saudi men get women pregnant in foriegn countries, they then get them to come to Saudi Araibia. Once there they are trapped forever. In Saudi Arabia you can read linux source code, but the bible is punishable by death!
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 03:29 AM
Is this cynical or not? The same goes for all the semithic countries. Luring/Cheating to get practically free workforce. Palestinians and africans doing the work hebrews wont do, etc. It's a tar pit<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Nothing (that I can come to think of) is just purely black or white.
Nothing (that I can come to think of) is just purely black or white.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 04:53 AM
I'm a little more cynical! I had 22 people from my unit killed there at khobar towers when I was in the Air Force. I went back there three years later, the Saudi's were as racist and fanatical then as they were before.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 05:02 AM
And the US government is as responsible for this mess as is the Saudi government. We are not innocent bystanders in this problem.
No, the U.S. is not an innocent bystander. But, since when is being an "innocent bystander" a requirement for looking after your own interests or commenting on the harmful impact of another society's behavior?
Moral purity is neither possible nor is it a prerequisite for taking action.
The U.S. is not responsible for the killings at the Khobar towers. The people who made and deployed the bomb are responsible. They share that responsibility with a Saudi regime that failed to prevent the attack, and with a Saudi society that nurtures bigotry, isolation, extremism and hatred.
The Saudis have every right to fashion their society as they see fit, but only if all Saudis are allowed to participate, democratically, in the process. It is difficult to see that happening in a society that treats women as sub-human and, to cite a well-known example, allows school girls to die in a burning building because an official religion enforcer blocked the rescuers for fear that they would actually see the faces of the victims.
It is as specious and as morally bankrupt to excuse this kind of behavior with a reference to religious "freedom" as it is to excuse the Inquisition with a similar reference.
In the meantime, lack of innocence is no excuse for failing to oppose racism, sexism, and extremism and, in much of the Middle East, outright medievalism, when and where we find them.
And an unwarranted sense of moral superiority does not justify exempting the perpetrators and supporters of the Khobar killings from paying for their crimes. You, it seems, are quite willing to ignore that if it gives you a chance to engage in a bit more unthinking America bashing.
Moral purity is neither possible nor is it a prerequisite for taking action.
The U.S. is not responsible for the killings at the Khobar towers. The people who made and deployed the bomb are responsible. They share that responsibility with a Saudi regime that failed to prevent the attack, and with a Saudi society that nurtures bigotry, isolation, extremism and hatred.
The Saudis have every right to fashion their society as they see fit, but only if all Saudis are allowed to participate, democratically, in the process. It is difficult to see that happening in a society that treats women as sub-human and, to cite a well-known example, allows school girls to die in a burning building because an official religion enforcer blocked the rescuers for fear that they would actually see the faces of the victims.
It is as specious and as morally bankrupt to excuse this kind of behavior with a reference to religious "freedom" as it is to excuse the Inquisition with a similar reference.
In the meantime, lack of innocence is no excuse for failing to oppose racism, sexism, and extremism and, in much of the Middle East, outright medievalism, when and where we find them.
And an unwarranted sense of moral superiority does not justify exempting the perpetrators and supporters of the Khobar killings from paying for their crimes. You, it seems, are quite willing to ignore that if it gives you a chance to engage in a bit more unthinking America bashing.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 06:00 AM
My unit was there at the request of the Saudi Government! We were on a Saudi base. Not only did they not protect US, they stone walled any investigation into the matter. Because the bin Laden family has ties to the Saudi royal family. In addition, they were financing the terrorists who did it. And teach radical Wahabi Islam to their people. The US government headed at that time by Clinton didn't do a damn thing! They knew it was Osama bin Laden and they new at that time exactly were he was. Had Clinton done something then, 9/11 probably never would have happened.
Do you think it's right to invite someone into your home, then pay someone to kill them? If so you and your Saudi friends can rot and burn in hell.
Do you think it's right to invite someone into your home, then pay someone to kill them? If so you and your Saudi friends can rot and burn in hell.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 06:26 PM
This is a bit out of context. Your own opinion I must say. But if you come there as a militarian, do you expect....what? Celebration?
And you are _not_ a racist? By what means? Racists are found everywhere. Let me say it again: _everywhere_! In a more philosophic take, I find it a part of nature's defence.
I take a person by person perspective, but as a group semithes are just that; semithes, with their own point of view over the world. Now, that view may not appeal to you, right? Surprise: Me neither! What I want to say is, with all the real facts down you can make your own view. Only by experiencing it - through all the levels. That stereotype talk is (probably) so full of FUD and propaganda. Hate it.
Keep it real.
And you are _not_ a racist? By what means? Racists are found everywhere. Let me say it again: _everywhere_! In a more philosophic take, I find it a part of nature's defence.
I take a person by person perspective, but as a group semithes are just that; semithes, with their own point of view over the world. Now, that view may not appeal to you, right? Surprise: Me neither! What I want to say is, with all the real facts down you can make your own view. Only by experiencing it - through all the levels. That stereotype talk is (probably) so full of FUD and propaganda. Hate it.
Keep it real.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 14, 2004 12:44 AM
Do you think you're the only country that get their citizens killed in terrorist acts?
Ever heard of Spain or England? Probably not. You have probably not heard of ETA or IRA then either, have you?
It's a shame you fight "terrorism" but you forget other countries have been fighting it WAY before you have for over 20 years!
I suggest you open your eyes, get to know the rest of the world. The rest of the world continues to code despite terrorism, wars, racism,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Maybe we "geeks" are real weirdos that don't realise a "foreign" geek is foreign<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... maybe WE'RE not the weirdos!
One last question, are they as racist/fanatical as you are?
Ever heard of Spain or England? Probably not. You have probably not heard of ETA or IRA then either, have you?
It's a shame you fight "terrorism" but you forget other countries have been fighting it WAY before you have for over 20 years!
I suggest you open your eyes, get to know the rest of the world. The rest of the world continues to code despite terrorism, wars, racism,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Maybe we "geeks" are real weirdos that don't realise a "foreign" geek is foreign<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... maybe WE'RE not the weirdos!
One last question, are they as racist/fanatical as you are?
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 02:13 AM
...and who funded the majority of the IRA's terror attacks? An organisation called 'NorAid' - who pick up their funding right here in the USA.
Repeated efforts by the UK government to get the USA to ban that organisation failed - right up until a few years ago.
So, amongst the list of countries that sponsor terrorism - the USA has been right up there.
Repeated efforts by the UK government to get the USA to ban that organisation failed - right up until a few years ago.
So, amongst the list of countries that sponsor terrorism - the USA has been right up there.
Oh, come on! How many people have been killed by the IRA and ETA combined in the last 10 years. Most of the number you will come up with will be ETA, and they are more of mafia then a terrorist group. They charge "Protection fees" and "Taxes" on businesses in the Basque region. While these groups are not insignificant by themselves, they are insignificant in comparison to other notable recent events.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 06:28 AM
"The same goes for all the semithic countries."
So... that would be Israel, and... what, New Israel? Or am I just missing a few Semitic countries? Is there some sort of Jewish Empire, on which the sun never sets? One that I missed the creation of?
So... that would be Israel, and... what, New Israel? Or am I just missing a few Semitic countries? Is there some sort of Jewish Empire, on which the sun never sets? One that I missed the creation of?
"In Saudi Arabia you can read linux source code, but the bible is punishable by death!"
Thank you for bringing the bible into this discussion. It's always a handy reference when we Christians feel the need to thump something, or to prove our inate superiority over other faiths.
Unless, of course, you are the kind of Christian who reads the bible you mention above. Then you might find something like this, in chapter 13 of Deuteronomy:
13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Hmmmmmm. We Christians are instructed not just to kill foreign infidels, but our wives, children, siblings and so on. How superior we are!
Slashdot, and other tech site editors generally avoid getting into religous frays on their own sites.
Injecting a little religion is always good for goosing the hit count and ad views. But the editors and writers themselves generally avoid getting into the middle of what results from the stories used to bait the readers.
Joe Barr quoting from the Bible, to put down those of Christian faith, from a few passages of the Bible.
Truly a disappointing day on Newsforge.
ps:
Are you saying that this is forced upon US school children today?
Which schools in the US are teaching Christian school children to kill infidels today? Last year? Ten years ago? Twenty years ago? Fifty years ago?
That's the whole point of the top post, isn't it? Quoting from Christian Crusades or the Middle Ages is a bit disingenuous isn't it? What you quote may exist in the Bible, but it isn't what we teach our school children today is it? We don't even teach them that in religious studies. Unless you are sending your kids to some school we don't know about...
Injecting a little religion is always good for goosing the hit count and ad views. But the editors and writers themselves generally avoid getting into the middle of what results from the stories used to bait the readers.
Joe Barr quoting from the Bible, to put down those of Christian faith, from a few passages of the Bible.
Truly a disappointing day on Newsforge.
ps:
Hmmmmmm. We Christians are instructed not just to kill foreign infidels, but our wives, children, siblings and so on. How superior we are!
Are you saying that this is forced upon US school children today?
Which schools in the US are teaching Christian school children to kill infidels today? Last year? Ten years ago? Twenty years ago? Fifty years ago?
That's the whole point of the top post, isn't it? Quoting from Christian Crusades or the Middle Ages is a bit disingenuous isn't it? What you quote may exist in the Bible, but it isn't what we teach our school children today is it? We don't even teach them that in religious studies. Unless you are sending your kids to some school we don't know about...
Joe needs an editor. I am serious.
For the most part I like Joe's work. He's done a decent job. But every now and then something completely unrelated to the story creeps in.
I suppose Saudi Arabia is "news" because he was there, cavorting with the enemy. Sorry, not enemy -- they are rich and proud sponsors of the US political system.
It would be better I think to hear about Linux in second- and third-world countries where for example the entire nation is not firewalled from the Internet. Saudi Arabia is hardly a hotspot of Linux or "IT" no matter what some unelected dictator "decrees".
I can think of many reasons to cover Linux in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, Russia or South Asia/Pacific. There are 2,995 reasons - at last [body] count - to avoid any flattery of SA.
For the most part I like Joe's work. He's done a decent job. But every now and then something completely unrelated to the story creeps in.
I suppose Saudi Arabia is "news" because he was there, cavorting with the enemy. Sorry, not enemy -- they are rich and proud sponsors of the US political system.
It would be better I think to hear about Linux in second- and third-world countries where for example the entire nation is not firewalled from the Internet. Saudi Arabia is hardly a hotspot of Linux or "IT" no matter what some unelected dictator "decrees".
I can think of many reasons to cover Linux in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, Russia or South Asia/Pacific. There are 2,995 reasons - at last [body] count - to avoid any flattery of SA.
I wrote the top post. I'm in agreement, for the most part, actually in just about all his work, I like it as well. And imho, he's done more than a decent job. His contributions go a long way in advancing Linux and Free/Open Source Software.
But there is a fundamental problem that is being brought to the forefront here on Newsforge over the last two days.
Joe Barr has the nuke button. He can nuke posts. And one post, along with the replies, appears to have been nuked within the last 24 hours. Maybe more than one post. Taking a look at some of the inflammatory statements in some of the other posts here, why the post was nuked doesn't make sense from what I remember of it. Maybe I'm wrong.
Combining the power to nuke posts, moderate posts when general readers don't have moderation rights, and having the ability to post in the same story as he has moderated or nuked posts is a recipe for trouble. Perhaps Joe Barr is an editor (isn't he/you an editor/publisher of another site?), and therefore has irrevocable nuke/post/moderate rights, but it doesn't seem to be working.
Maybe the slashdot model, where if you moderate you can't post, if you nuke, you can't post may work here. Or if you post, once you nuke or moderate, your posts are removed.
btw, I think you are confusing Joe Barr with Roblimo. Roblimo has the byline for the story iirc, so Joe Barr wasn't the one in Saudi Arabia submitting the story. I actually made the same mistake of not checking who wrote the story when I posted one of the parent posts that received a lot of inflammatory comments both for and against. Had I known that Roblimo wrote the story, perhaps I would have moderated myself, in fear of being a marked user for later retaliatory moderation or nuking. Possible even though I'm AC. In any case, Roblimo received the benefit of my unmoderated post thanks to my lack of checking if he was the author.
But there is a fundamental problem that is being brought to the forefront here on Newsforge over the last two days.
Joe Barr has the nuke button. He can nuke posts. And one post, along with the replies, appears to have been nuked within the last 24 hours. Maybe more than one post. Taking a look at some of the inflammatory statements in some of the other posts here, why the post was nuked doesn't make sense from what I remember of it. Maybe I'm wrong.
Combining the power to nuke posts, moderate posts when general readers don't have moderation rights, and having the ability to post in the same story as he has moderated or nuked posts is a recipe for trouble. Perhaps Joe Barr is an editor (isn't he/you an editor/publisher of another site?), and therefore has irrevocable nuke/post/moderate rights, but it doesn't seem to be working.
Maybe the slashdot model, where if you moderate you can't post, if you nuke, you can't post may work here. Or if you post, once you nuke or moderate, your posts are removed.
btw, I think you are confusing Joe Barr with Roblimo. Roblimo has the byline for the story iirc, so Joe Barr wasn't the one in Saudi Arabia submitting the story. I actually made the same mistake of not checking who wrote the story when I posted one of the parent posts that received a lot of inflammatory comments both for and against. Had I known that Roblimo wrote the story, perhaps I would have moderated myself, in fear of being a marked user for later retaliatory moderation or nuking. Possible even though I'm AC. In any case, Roblimo received the benefit of my unmoderated post thanks to my lack of checking if he was the author.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 06:44 AM
Why don't you quote from the New Testament, the part of the Bible that really applies to Christians? For Christians, any of the verses you listed from Deuteronomy are applicable only so long as they do not conflict with the teachings of Jesus:
Hebrews 8:7-10
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, He saith, "Behold, the days come," saith the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds and write them in their hearts, and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.
Hebrews 8:7-10
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, He saith, "Behold, the days come," saith the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds and write them in their hearts, and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 05:33 AM
Did you make up everything in your post?
In Saudi Arabia you can read linux source code, but the bible is punishable by death!
Actually, Islam teaches that Muslims should read the Bible, including the Christian New Testament. Shocking isn't it? A religion that not only respects other religions, but actually teaches that the other religion's holy texts should be read. Wouldn't happen in America.
In Saudi Arabia you can read linux source code, but the bible is punishable by death!
Actually, Islam teaches that Muslims should read the Bible, including the Christian New Testament. Shocking isn't it? A religion that not only respects other religions, but actually teaches that the other religion's holy texts should be read. Wouldn't happen in America.
Take off your Tinfoil Hat you racist hippie.
George Bush himself declared that there are links between September 11 and IRAQ. If you blame terrorism on Saudi Arabia you must be anti-American and anti-Iraq war.
Mr Bush is a distinguished getleman with millions of family investments in Saudi Arabia. Do you REALLY think he would perpetuate his investments and family relationships with fascist mass murderers? His family took a notable stand against the Nazi's in WW2, with their interesting work done for "Union Banking Corp" (verifiable).
My Bush is a loyal American, with a remarkable Air Force career. I trust him with my life every day. Don't you?
Besides... without Saudi Arabia, "American" oil companies would have no product -- forcing Congress to demand that US automobiles burn something else, such as methanol. Methanol as you know comes from corn, the demand for arable land and product might keep tens of thousands of family farmers from being foreclosed upon.
George Bush himself declared that there are links between September 11 and IRAQ. If you blame terrorism on Saudi Arabia you must be anti-American and anti-Iraq war.
Mr Bush is a distinguished getleman with millions of family investments in Saudi Arabia. Do you REALLY think he would perpetuate his investments and family relationships with fascist mass murderers? His family took a notable stand against the Nazi's in WW2, with their interesting work done for "Union Banking Corp" (verifiable).
My Bush is a loyal American, with a remarkable Air Force career. I trust him with my life every day. Don't you?
Besides... without Saudi Arabia, "American" oil companies would have no product -- forcing Congress to demand that US automobiles burn something else, such as methanol. Methanol as you know comes from corn, the demand for arable land and product might keep tens of thousands of family farmers from being foreclosed upon.
You know that always made we wonder. Here we are in North America, or even Russia with oodles of LAND that could be used for farming corn. We could produce so much methanol that we would be easily self sufficient.
WTF, eh? Why not... I am all for it!
WTF, eh? Why not... I am all for it!
Ethanol actually consumes more energy than it produces. See, for example, <A HREF="http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031128.html" TITLE="straightdope.com">this recent Straight Dope column</a straightdope.com>.
Here in Brazil we use ethanol as fuel for automobiles. I own a car that runs only on ethanol, but most newer models are capable of running on any mix of both ethanol and gasoline. There is also increasing use of switchable propane/gas for taxis and other urban vehicles.
BTW, my first car that ran on ethanol was made in 1986. Of the cars I owned since then, four were ethanol-only. For the same engine configuration, ethanol-only engines were about 10% more powerful than gas-only ones, with much less wear on the engine (confirmed by my lower maintenance costs).
IIRC, the first ethanol running cars here were built in the late 70s or early 80s.
BTW, my first car that ran on ethanol was made in 1986. Of the cars I owned since then, four were ethanol-only. For the same engine configuration, ethanol-only engines were about 10% more powerful than gas-only ones, with much less wear on the engine (confirmed by my lower maintenance costs).
IIRC, the first ethanol running cars here were built in the late 70s or early 80s.
>You know that always made we wonder. Here we are in North America, or even Russia with oodles of LAND that could be used for farming corn. We could produce so much methanol that we would be easily self sufficient.
There is no technical reason to continue using gasoline. Most cars on the road today are methanol-ready.
Methanol currently costs ~ $2.50 a gallon. Depending how you count the beans, that's probably cheaper than processed gasoline due to the tax subsudies lavished on oil companies (which don't come from gas taxes.. they're hiddin in the general fund taxes to discourage conservation).
There are other benefits also such as supporting family farmers instead of King Fahd. Less tax dollars being sent to Israel defense ($10bn US each year), and a reduced need for borrowing against the next president's budget to prop up the US military in the face of huge defecits.
These are powerful interests. Never mind political PAC money from Big Oil, just count how many of Television's advertisements are from Detroit or are oil related. US news is wholly dependent on the status quo. It's truly sad if you think about it... this is both an economic and national security issue, and no one is mentioning it.
There is no technical reason to continue using gasoline. Most cars on the road today are methanol-ready.
Methanol currently costs ~ $2.50 a gallon. Depending how you count the beans, that's probably cheaper than processed gasoline due to the tax subsudies lavished on oil companies (which don't come from gas taxes.. they're hiddin in the general fund taxes to discourage conservation).
There are other benefits also such as supporting family farmers instead of King Fahd. Less tax dollars being sent to Israel defense ($10bn US each year), and a reduced need for borrowing against the next president's budget to prop up the US military in the face of huge defecits.
These are powerful interests. Never mind political PAC money from Big Oil, just count how many of Television's advertisements are from Detroit or are oil related. US news is wholly dependent on the status quo. It's truly sad if you think about it... this is both an economic and national security issue, and no one is mentioning it.
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 02:55 PM
Hey get off your little kick here pal. Wash the crapp out of your eyes and try to see something else. Not every country need to be democratic, and not every religon needs to be Christan. Sure they might have a strict way of living, but they, the Saudi's, have been living that way for years. Why must people like you always pick out the bad parts and focus on that, so by your great mind.
All Saudis are the Wahabi(sp DGAF) and wish to kill all.
All Saudis believe Israel should be distroyed.
And All Saudis Believe all non-muslims should die.
All Saudis are the Wahabi(sp DGAF) and wish to kill all.
All Saudis believe Israel should be distroyed.
And All Saudis Believe all non-muslims should die.
Seriously, I expect that they do speak some English, but I'm not not altogether certain.
They obviously speak GNU/Linux.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
And try the Green Dates.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)
They obviously speak GNU/Linux.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
And try the Green Dates.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)
I think its very encouraging to see the global spread of Gnu/Linux and OSS. Right now we have French, German, Indian, Chinese, Arabic, South American and Isreali governments comming onside and an uptake right across the globe in schools and colleges. It should come as no suprise that there are also towel-head geeks just like you and I.
Right now Linus is down-under in Australia, probably watching a presentation on Aboriginal Linux-powered Digeridoos. The Chinese are making Red Flag which will have a userbase over 1 billion!
I think some of the commentators need to celebrate this international success and drop this silly American notion that the rest of world are not jawbone-weilding savages hellbent on pillaging the USA and stealing your women. The world is full of intelligent people muchlike yourselves.
Right now Linus is down-under in Australia, probably watching a presentation on Aboriginal Linux-powered Digeridoos. The Chinese are making Red Flag which will have a userbase over 1 billion!
I think some of the commentators need to celebrate this international success and drop this silly American notion that the rest of world are not jawbone-weilding savages hellbent on pillaging the USA and stealing your women. The world is full of intelligent people muchlike yourselves.
Remember Linux was international right from the beginning: the original Linux kernel was written by Torvalds in his hometown of Helsinki, Finland, which is not a part of U.S.A, last time I looked.
And where is he living now?
CW: So, when are you moving to Australia?
LT: I like Australia but have <A HREF="http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php?id=568003838&fp=16&fpid=0" TITLE="linuxworld.com.au">no plans</a linuxworld.com.au> to move here. My family is well adjusted to life in San Jose; however, I do work from home so I could work anywhere. I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though.
Other countries build walls or incentives to lessen the outflow of migration.
The US needs to build walls to lessen the inflow of illegal immigration. And to provide fairness for those waiting more than ten years to enter the US legally.
See the difference? Maybe you just don't want to see it.
LT: I like Australia but have <A HREF="http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php?id=568003838&fp=16&fpid=0" TITLE="linuxworld.com.au">no plans</a linuxworld.com.au> to move here. My family is well adjusted to life in San Jose; however, I do work from home so I could work anywhere. I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though.
Other countries build walls or incentives to lessen the outflow of migration.
The US needs to build walls to lessen the inflow of illegal immigration. And to provide fairness for those waiting more than ten years to enter the US legally.
See the difference? Maybe you just don't want to see it.
Linux advocates tend to be extreme to the point of
hypocrasy, they equate the GPL virtues as that on
the same level of freedom of speech, but obviously
they don't give a damn about freedom of speech. Sure
in China, saying the wrong thing could get you imprisoned
or even executed. But who cares about
all that FUD, the government supports Linux so hurah
to them!
hypocrasy, they equate the GPL virtues as that on
the same level of freedom of speech, but obviously
they don't give a damn about freedom of speech. Sure
in China, saying the wrong thing could get you imprisoned
or even executed. But who cares about
all that FUD, the government supports Linux so hurah
to them!
Re:Geek roots out terrorism after full investigati
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 08:56 AM
What does Dick Cheney being Vice President of Haliburton have to do with anything? In fact, wasn't he CEO toward the end?
Halliburton is a huge oil services company, and conglomerate. They are one of the top two or three, in terms of revenue, oil services company in the world. The company that is larger than them is French.
Halliburton has had a long standing no-bid contract with the US armed forces, and with the Army Corp. of Engineers. In addition to no-bid contracts, they have regular bid contracts that they regularly win. Halliburton, because of its size, regularly gets awarded contracts that other companies simply can't handle, or are not already prime contractors already doing business with the US government on related or same location contracts.
Leading up to the war, they were given a no-bid contract for putting out the oil fires they were expecting like the previous Gulf war. The Democrats pounced all over that in the news. But guess what? Halliburton did their homework. Perhaps you don't remember, but during the Gulf war, who went in to shut down the oil fires? As every news commentator, whether liberal or conservative, has described them, the first two words are key: "The Legendary" Red Adair. I may not have spelled that right.
Guess who now owns Red Adair's company? That's right. Halliburton. So who got the no-bid contract for putting out the oil fires? "The Legendary" Red Adair, owned by Halliburton.
Halliburton is to liberals as Hillary is to conservatives. No surprise. But if you look at the situation objectively, there is no surprise that Halliburton has the contracts that it has. They perform a huge amount of work for the US government. The French company that is larger than them (can't think of the name right now) doesn't do nearly as much work for the US Government, although they may have some US contracts that they successfully bid that are fulfilled in Europe or the Far East. But to expect that the French competing company would be given a no-bid contract immediately prior to the war is ridiculous. And to expect that the Pentagon would waste precious months and years on chopping up the contract into smaller parts to be bid on by smaller companies, and then to expect them to interact with dozens or hundreds of other companies during a war instead of a single one is more ridiculousness.
Halliburton also played a starring role during the Clinton administration as well. Where is the corruption during this time period?
I understand that Liberals must have a scapegoat. A good fund raising flash point. Something to taint Cheney for the 2008 election, prior to him cleaning your clock in 11/08. But an objective look at the facts, and the company's prior dealings with your favorite president would tend to support a benign, above board relationship.
You have other arguments to stand on, such as the disclosing of the spy's wife's name, alleged listening/not debating during cabinet meetings, etc. Halliburton is a weak argument that may win you a bit of support among less educated US citizens who don't watch too much news and aren't informed, but it won't win you any support for those who are aware of the situation.
Look on the bright side. You may have Katherine Harris running in Florida. That would be a dream race for any liberal. You get to play over the 2000 election all over again, and you get someone who liberals can't stand, which would become a huge campaign fund generator for your side. Things may be looking up for you!
Halliburton is a huge oil services company, and conglomerate. They are one of the top two or three, in terms of revenue, oil services company in the world. The company that is larger than them is French.
Halliburton has had a long standing no-bid contract with the US armed forces, and with the Army Corp. of Engineers. In addition to no-bid contracts, they have regular bid contracts that they regularly win. Halliburton, because of its size, regularly gets awarded contracts that other companies simply can't handle, or are not already prime contractors already doing business with the US government on related or same location contracts.
Leading up to the war, they were given a no-bid contract for putting out the oil fires they were expecting like the previous Gulf war. The Democrats pounced all over that in the news. But guess what? Halliburton did their homework. Perhaps you don't remember, but during the Gulf war, who went in to shut down the oil fires? As every news commentator, whether liberal or conservative, has described them, the first two words are key: "The Legendary" Red Adair. I may not have spelled that right.
Guess who now owns Red Adair's company? That's right. Halliburton. So who got the no-bid contract for putting out the oil fires? "The Legendary" Red Adair, owned by Halliburton.
Halliburton is to liberals as Hillary is to conservatives. No surprise. But if you look at the situation objectively, there is no surprise that Halliburton has the contracts that it has. They perform a huge amount of work for the US government. The French company that is larger than them (can't think of the name right now) doesn't do nearly as much work for the US Government, although they may have some US contracts that they successfully bid that are fulfilled in Europe or the Far East. But to expect that the French competing company would be given a no-bid contract immediately prior to the war is ridiculous. And to expect that the Pentagon would waste precious months and years on chopping up the contract into smaller parts to be bid on by smaller companies, and then to expect them to interact with dozens or hundreds of other companies during a war instead of a single one is more ridiculousness.
Halliburton also played a starring role during the Clinton administration as well. Where is the corruption during this time period?
I understand that Liberals must have a scapegoat. A good fund raising flash point. Something to taint Cheney for the 2008 election, prior to him cleaning your clock in 11/08. But an objective look at the facts, and the company's prior dealings with your favorite president would tend to support a benign, above board relationship.
You have other arguments to stand on, such as the disclosing of the spy's wife's name, alleged listening/not debating during cabinet meetings, etc. Halliburton is a weak argument that may win you a bit of support among less educated US citizens who don't watch too much news and aren't informed, but it won't win you any support for those who are aware of the situation.
Look on the bright side. You may have Katherine Harris running in Florida. That would be a dream race for any liberal. You get to play over the 2000 election all over again, and you get someone who liberals can't stand, which would become a huge campaign fund generator for your side. Things may be looking up for you!
It is refreshing to read an article that doesn't portray Saudis in the typical, crude stereotypes. (It appears that most of the responders have never been to Saudi Arabia and must rely on simplistic images presented in many media accounts.) I lived in Saudi Arabia for 15 years and I am grateful that the majority of my Saudi friends did not confuse me with John Wayne or OJ Simpson or some other simplistic 'American' stereotype.
I was living in Dhahran at the time of the Khobar Towers bombing. And at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. And on 9/11. The reaction of all of my co-workers - Saudis, Americans, and others - to each of those events was very much the same. Shock and sorrow.
My basic message is: the average Saudi is very much like the average American. Timothy McVeigh was not a typical American. Osama bin Ladin is not a typical Saudi.
I was living in Dhahran at the time of the Khobar Towers bombing. And at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. And on 9/11. The reaction of all of my co-workers - Saudis, Americans, and others - to each of those events was very much the same. Shock and sorrow.
My basic message is: the average Saudi is very much like the average American. Timothy McVeigh was not a typical American. Osama bin Ladin is not a typical Saudi.
I agree 100% with you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
except Mcviegh is dead and Osama is not.
The whole islam thing about infidels is just total crap. They need to get over the fact that not everyone want's to be a muslim and they should just learn to accept others as they are.
The whole islam thing about infidels is just total crap. They need to get over the fact that not everyone want's to be a muslim and they should just learn to accept others as they are.
This is quite reasonable... If it's also required from (for example) christian fundamentalists like president Bush who has deprieved support of several
organizations who help developing countries just because those organizations mention that such things as abortion exist.
It's quite possible to be obnoxious regardless of
ones nationality or ones reliogion.
organizations who help developing countries just because those organizations mention that such things as abortion exist.
It's quite possible to be obnoxious regardless of
ones nationality or ones reliogion.
The problem is fundamentalists are rarely if ever reasonable.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
As far as I know, Osammah Bin Ladden didn't do what he did because he hates infidels. but because he Blames US for it's support of Israel, for our support of Saudi Goverment and other evil arab regimes that we seemed to have befrended. It seemes ridiculous, and maybe a little prejudicial to blame Evil Saudi regime for evil Osamah Bin Ladden, since they are enemies of each other. But then I guess it is understandable that some people feel that way. All brown people must look alike to them.
as Mr. Robin 'Roblimo' Miller maybe a linux guru on some level but to make polical comments about the "terrorist" activities in another counter is highly unprofessional. to make comments of terrorists and potential terrorists and of armed security guards at checkpoints, which we see domestically and hear about domestically we should be very careful in making statements about the condition of other countries when we ourselves are losing our rights because "big brother" is always afraid!
but on another note to make assumptions that countries like saudi could have such developers is a pretty funny! i mean, to assume that only those in the developed countries have access to linux, to books to learn about linux is and while all other developing or non-western countries don't is quite the statement of ignorance!
thank you
but on another note to make assumptions that countries like saudi could have such developers is a pretty funny! i mean, to assume that only those in the developed countries have access to linux, to books to learn about linux is and while all other developing or non-western countries don't is quite the statement of ignorance!
thank you
We can tell with this kind of example "We are all the same", is good to see OpenSource implementations all over the world, in some way we are working with each other without worries about our nationality.
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 14, 2004 04:13 AM
Boy, someone has a chip on their shoulder!
The author said nothing but nice things about the people he met.
As far as I can tell, all he was trying to say was 'people, especially open-source advocates, are the same anywhere you go - don't believe that all Arabs are terrorists.'
What in the world is insulting about that?
Where's the 'political rant?' I'm confused.
Gotta love that user group name!
Did anyone notice the acronym for Saudi Linux User Group?
<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.....SLUG.....
Watch it mate! I also belong to a slug, HantsLUG here in the UK
Try the original slug at http://www.slug.org.au/ the Sydney Linux Users' Group.
Or the salt lake linux user group, sllug
UC Santa Cruz also has SLUGLUG.
I'm a member of SLUG IT!
I had heard that there is a new distro
called Jihad linux that includes the newest
version of KDE and Gnome. How can I get this
Jihad Linux?
called Jihad linux that includes the newest
version of KDE and Gnome. How can I get this
Jihad Linux?
in order to get jihad linux, you must first take your fist out of your ass.
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 14, 2004 02:01 PM
An article theoretically about Linux which says almost nothing whatsoever about Linux. (...) I too attended the same Open Source Symposium in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia but it appears that while I was listening to the lectures Mr. Miller was preoccupied with the latest fashion trends and headgear.
Your (lengthy) diatribe would be more respectable if it didn't have the very same problem<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... it says nothing about Linux. Perhaps you could fill us in on some of the events you witnessed?
Does Saudi Arabia have a government? Or is it just a family oil business?
One might ask the same question about the United States.
>One might ask the same question about the United States.
Because they are the same group. Literally.
-Me
Proud of America, ashamed of Bush
Because they are the same group. Literally.
-Me
Proud of America, ashamed of Bush
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 01:46 AM
This is pure Saudi thinking. "Your article is about Linux. In this article, you cannot write about anything other than Linux, because that is what your article is about."
Well, for western educated people these sorts of rules simply do not apply. That is why they invent so many things; they habitually break rules.
Your attack was highly instructive. Why should you care about Miller testing your censorship systems or commenting about how you keep females in different rooms during a conference like this? Are you so ashamed of your way of life that you cannot bear for anyone who experiences it first hand to report it factually outside of your country? This I imagine is the real reason why you typed that long list of "bad things" the americans do and did to you personally. Deep down it embarrases you that you live the way that you do, otherwise, you would not have commented in the way that you did. Miller simply spoke plainly about what he experienced and found fascinating, in a non biased and friendly way.
You cannot even see a friend when he is standing right in frong of you. This is a terrible shame indeed, and you are an educated person to boot. Go to slashdot and read some of the -1 comments about this trip and the 5 articles to see what the majority of americans really think about Saudis.
I do agree with you on one point; Miller should never have gone to your country. It is completely wrong for a person to go to a place where the laws and customs are utterly against his sense of decency and his ideas of morality.
Saudis are free to live however they want, until the end of time. This is your God given right. People who do not agree with your way of life on the most fundamental levels should indeed not debase themselvs by going into a country that they disagree with for money. No one with a moral bone in their body travelled to South Africa during Aparthied for example, and you can make up your own list of countries that you personally would not visit out of disgust for their way of life
My advice to you is stop inviting foreign people to your country to legitimize your gatherings. You dont need them. You can do it all yourself, and avoid these sorts of misunderstandings that tarnish you and soil the invitee.
Well, for western educated people these sorts of rules simply do not apply. That is why they invent so many things; they habitually break rules.
Your attack was highly instructive. Why should you care about Miller testing your censorship systems or commenting about how you keep females in different rooms during a conference like this? Are you so ashamed of your way of life that you cannot bear for anyone who experiences it first hand to report it factually outside of your country? This I imagine is the real reason why you typed that long list of "bad things" the americans do and did to you personally. Deep down it embarrases you that you live the way that you do, otherwise, you would not have commented in the way that you did. Miller simply spoke plainly about what he experienced and found fascinating, in a non biased and friendly way.
You cannot even see a friend when he is standing right in frong of you. This is a terrible shame indeed, and you are an educated person to boot. Go to slashdot and read some of the -1 comments about this trip and the 5 articles to see what the majority of americans really think about Saudis.
I do agree with you on one point; Miller should never have gone to your country. It is completely wrong for a person to go to a place where the laws and customs are utterly against his sense of decency and his ideas of morality.
Saudis are free to live however they want, until the end of time. This is your God given right. People who do not agree with your way of life on the most fundamental levels should indeed not debase themselvs by going into a country that they disagree with for money. No one with a moral bone in their body travelled to South Africa during Aparthied for example, and you can make up your own list of countries that you personally would not visit out of disgust for their way of life
My advice to you is stop inviting foreign people to your country to legitimize your gatherings. You dont need them. You can do it all yourself, and avoid these sorts of misunderstandings that tarnish you and soil the invitee.
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 05:25 AM
" It is completely wrong for a person to go to a place where the laws and customs are utterly against his sense of decency and his ideas of morality."
How are we going to find out what the hell is going on in places like that if people like us don't go there, see it with their own eyes, and tell us about it?
Just because one visits cannibals doesn't mean that one endorses their morality.
The alternative with respect to Saudi Arabia is that all we learn about it is the Saudi government version allows the mass media to report.
The problem with not getting the truth out of a nation is the little surprises we get when we find out that reality isn't what the Saudi government allows reporters who are stationed in a country to tell us. Reality checks like airliners hijacked by Saudi nationals and flown into our nation's buildings for the purpose of mass murder.
I'm sorry that you prefer ignorance, even if what it gets you are "surprises" like 9/11.
I'm a bit less surprised that a Saudi would prefer that Americans be kept in ignorance, but he himself provided a lot more information about his people than he probably wanted us to know or that Robin could find out in a few days.
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 06:45 AM
even if what it gets you are "surprises" like 9/11.
That is a completely ignorant and stupid thing to believe. 911 happened precisely because americans are in Saudi Arabia, minding the business of people who have absolutely nothing to do with america. Get your facts straight.
Taking money from people you know are evil is wrong; you would not hesitate to call someone who does business with China immoral, or historically someone who did business with an immoral country, so what is the difference between that and doing business with a place that you already know is evil?
You dont need to know what is happening in Saudi Arabia. You need to pay full attention to what your own immoral government is doing on your behalf, and the wrath that it is bringing down on your head.
You also need to put away this 911 lollypop that you keep sucking in pubilc. Its making a revolting noise, and the whole world is fed up of hearing it.
That is a completely ignorant and stupid thing to believe. 911 happened precisely because americans are in Saudi Arabia, minding the business of people who have absolutely nothing to do with america. Get your facts straight.
Taking money from people you know are evil is wrong; you would not hesitate to call someone who does business with China immoral, or historically someone who did business with an immoral country, so what is the difference between that and doing business with a place that you already know is evil?
You dont need to know what is happening in Saudi Arabia. You need to pay full attention to what your own immoral government is doing on your behalf, and the wrath that it is bringing down on your head.
You also need to put away this 911 lollypop that you keep sucking in pubilc. Its making a revolting noise, and the whole world is fed up of hearing it.
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Chris Nandor on January 18, 2004 02:09 AM
An article theoretically about Linux which says almost nothing whatsoever about Linux.
Your premise is flawed. The article is about "Linux advocates" (specifically, those in "Saudi Arabia" who wear "white robes"). HAND, HTH.
Your premise is flawed. The article is about "Linux advocates" (specifically, those in "Saudi Arabia" who wear "white robes"). HAND, HTH.
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 18, 2004 02:41 AM
1) It was about Linux advocates...
2) No society is perfect, BUT
AND THIS IS A BIG BUT!!!!
If I had to choose between ignorant lame Americans, or no freedom Saudi Arabia, I will choose ignorant lame Americans any day...
Why? Because I have the right to say "Americans, you are ignorant and lame!" That right to critize and then be considered a rude foreigner is a right I would never want to give up. It is a fundenmental human right, no ands, ifs or buts!
3) George W Bush maybe a bozo, but guess what! Lame ignorant Americans can elect him and if they so choose not elect him again. This ties back to this freedom thingy!
So there, and I am am neither an American, nor a Middle East person, but a rude European foreigner!
2) No society is perfect, BUT
AND THIS IS A BIG BUT!!!!
If I had to choose between ignorant lame Americans, or no freedom Saudi Arabia, I will choose ignorant lame Americans any day...
Why? Because I have the right to say "Americans, you are ignorant and lame!" That right to critize and then be considered a rude foreigner is a right I would never want to give up. It is a fundenmental human right, no ands, ifs or buts!
3) George W Bush maybe a bozo, but guess what! Lame ignorant Americans can elect him and if they so choose not elect him again. This ties back to this freedom thingy!
So there, and I am am neither an American, nor a Middle East person, but a rude European foreigner!
Re: Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 19, 2004 06:45 PM
Should I talk about my father's experience with a man in Texas who asked whether "Saudi Arabia" was in "North or South Texas"?
I'm afraid both you and your father have been taken in by a very old and long-running Texas joke. Your cultural difference blinded you to that, so that while you and your father thought you were having a good laugh, it was the Texan who really had the last laugh. And me too.
I'm afraid both you and your father have been taken in by a very old and long-running Texas joke. Your cultural difference blinded you to that, so that while you and your father thought you were having a good laugh, it was the Texan who really had the last laugh. And me too.
U.S. has quietly expelled dozens of Saudi diplomats
Thursday, January 29, 2004
The United States has ordered the expulsion of dozens of <A HREF="http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html" TITLE="worldtribune.com">Saudi diplomats suspected of helping promulgate Al Qaida ideology</a worldtribune.com>, diplomatic sources said. The State Dept. has refused to either confirm or deny the action..
The State Department revoked the diplomatic credentials of the Saudi diplomats in Washington over the last month in an effort to crack down on Saudi efforts to promote Al Qaida interests in the United States.
The diplomatic sources said about 70 diplomats and embassy staffers were expelled in late 2003 and dozens of others were ordered to leave the United States by mid-February. Many of those expelled were said to have worked in the office of the Saudi defense attache.
In all, about 70 Saudi diplomats have left the United States since January, the sources said. They did not include Saudi ambassador to Washington, Prince Bandar Bin Sultan, the longest serving diplomat in the United States.
The State Department has refused to confirm the expulsion of the Saudi diplomats. "I can't confirm it at this point," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said on Wednesday. "I'll see if there's anything I can say for you."
The Saudi diplomats, in a determination made by the FBI and Homeland Security Department, were said to have abused their diplomatic privileges in the United States. The sources said most of the diplomats were responsible for operations of the Institute of Islamic and Arabic Sciences in America [IIASA] located in Fairfax, Va.
IIASA, established in 1988, has provided free training for hundreds of Muslims in the United States in Wahabi ideology, the basis for Al Qaida. The institute is one of six overseas branches of the main religious university in Saudi Arabia.
The Washington-based Saudi Information Agency, operated by the Saudi opposition, identified the Saudi diplomats who work at the institute as Fuad Gunaim, Ibrahim Al Kulaib, Abdallah Al Saif, Saleh Al Sunae, Fahd Al Amer, Saab Al Saab, and Yousef Al Shubaily.
The U.S. decision to expel the diplomats was said to have stemmed from a Houston, Texas conference in December 2003. The Saudi opposition agency said Saudi diplomats had planned to attend the conference with what it termed "known supporters of Al Qaida leader Osama Bin Laden. The Saudi embassy canceled its participation in the conference after the Washington Post reported the involvement of the diplomats.
The conference was to have been addressed by a senior Saudi cleric Sheik Abdullah Bin Jebreen, who has publicly supported Bin Laden and his war against the United States, the agency said. Jebreen addressed the conference via video link from Riyad.
[On Thursday, a statement purportedly issued by Bin Laden said Al Qaida's strategy was to launch a major attack on the United States. The statement, which appeared on the Voice of Jihad website, said Al Qaida wants to provoke the United States to retaliate against Saudi Arabia.]
The agency said Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar Bin Sultan has refused to take responsibility for the Saudi embassy in Washington. The agency cited a source as saying he hasn't entered the embassy in years.
"Many diplomats have not seen the ambassador for years," the source said. "Bandar spends most of his time at his mansions around the U.S. and the world, instead of carrying on his ambassadorial duties."
Thursday, January 29, 2004
The United States has ordered the expulsion of dozens of <A HREF="http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html" TITLE="worldtribune.com">Saudi diplomats suspected of helping promulgate Al Qaida ideology</a worldtribune.com>, diplomatic sources said. The State Dept. has refused to either confirm or deny the action..
The State Department revoked the diplomatic credentials of the Saudi diplomats in Washington over the last month in an effort to crack down on Saudi efforts to promote Al Qaida interests in the United States.
The diplomatic sources said about 70 diplomats and embassy staffers were expelled in late 2003 and dozens of others were ordered to leave the United States by mid-February. Many of those expelled were said to have worked in the office of the Saudi defense attache.
In all, about 70 Saudi diplomats have left the United States since January, the sources said. They did not include Saudi ambassador to Washington, Prince Bandar Bin Sultan, the longest serving diplomat in the United States.
The State Department has refused to confirm the expulsion of the Saudi diplomats. "I can't confirm it at this point," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said on Wednesday. "I'll see if there's anything I can say for you."
The Saudi diplomats, in a determination made by the FBI and Homeland Security Department, were said to have abused their diplomatic privileges in the United States. The sources said most of the diplomats were responsible for operations of the Institute of Islamic and Arabic Sciences in America [IIASA] located in Fairfax, Va.
IIASA, established in 1988, has provided free training for hundreds of Muslims in the United States in Wahabi ideology, the basis for Al Qaida. The institute is one of six overseas branches of the main religious university in Saudi Arabia.
The Washington-based Saudi Information Agency, operated by the Saudi opposition, identified the Saudi diplomats who work at the institute as Fuad Gunaim, Ibrahim Al Kulaib, Abdallah Al Saif, Saleh Al Sunae, Fahd Al Amer, Saab Al Saab, and Yousef Al Shubaily.
The U.S. decision to expel the diplomats was said to have stemmed from a Houston, Texas conference in December 2003. The Saudi opposition agency said Saudi diplomats had planned to attend the conference with what it termed "known supporters of Al Qaida leader Osama Bin Laden. The Saudi embassy canceled its participation in the conference after the Washington Post reported the involvement of the diplomats.
The conference was to have been addressed by a senior Saudi cleric Sheik Abdullah Bin Jebreen, who has publicly supported Bin Laden and his war against the United States, the agency said. Jebreen addressed the conference via video link from Riyad.
[On Thursday, a statement purportedly issued by Bin Laden said Al Qaida's strategy was to launch a major attack on the United States. The statement, which appeared on the Voice of Jihad website, said Al Qaida wants to provoke the United States to retaliate against Saudi Arabia.]
The agency said Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar Bin Sultan has refused to take responsibility for the Saudi embassy in Washington. The agency cited a source as saying he hasn't entered the embassy in years.
"Many diplomats have not seen the ambassador for years," the source said. "Bandar spends most of his time at his mansions around the U.S. and the world, instead of carrying on his ambassadorial duties."
Oooh! Big Media Conspiracy!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2004 02:20 AMCome to think of it, we don't see any Microsoft developers on TV. Or Apple coders. Or IBM coders.
Wow! We don't see developers of any persuasion on TV.
The Great Corporate Media Cabal must have decided software developers are persona non grata. Eh?
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