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Feature: Java

An open letter to Eclipse membership from Sun

By Sun Microsystems, Inc. on January 30, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)

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Sun would like to congratulate the Eclipse organization on the eve of the transition to independence. This move proves again that the Java technology ecosystem is capable of spawning new value and continued technical diversity. Given this noteworthy accomplishment, and the recent creation of javatools.org, Sun would like to reflect on what we hope the future has in store for Java technology-based tools and the enduring Java platform.

What we have in common: the Big Picture

First and foremost, the main goal for all of us in the Java development community is to achieve the strongest possible technology and market position for the Java platform. The Big Picture is a Java technology solution that ensures no "lock in" to a given platform, one that generates competitive markets and technologies, and one based on standards. That way developers, deployers and consumers continue to have choice and benefit from technological diversity.

Thanks is due to Eclipse for joining Sun in genuinely exploring options.

Since July 2003, Sun and Eclipse have held many candid conversations and explored various options to join, merge, and otherwise combine forces. In the course of these discussions, we were able to set aside differences of technical opinion to pursue our common goal -- the Big Picture.

All those involved in the meetings would agree that the sticking points in the discussion were not so much technical in nature as they were business-related. Sun bases all of its commercial tools products on the NetBeans open source IDE. The required mandatory transition to the Eclipse platform would inhibit development of innovative technologies like the Sun Java Studio Creator product (code-named Project Rave), and require a reconstruction of all of our existing tools. Any entry criteria requiring that Sun abandon the NetBeans open source platform directly conflicts with the concept of choice and diversity, the very bases that gave Eclipse its beginning. If this condition were to change, we would be happy to reconsider. In the meantime, it is worthwhile to explore how we (and others) can work with Eclipse to align in a way that benefits the strength of the Java platform as a whole, especially with the multi-partner javatools.org community recently announced.

We hope in the near future to find a solution that benefits both the Eclipse and NetBeans communities -- in very visible, open ways -- where Sun can be an open contributor to Eclipse, and Eclipse can do the same for the NetBeans platform. In that manner, technology and IP can flow more freely so that both communities benefit. This tight alignment ensures that the Java platform wins.

Choice does not mean fragmentation!

Competition and technical diversity are not equivalent to fragmentation, as some would define it. In the process of your achievement, you've shown that competition and diversity have in fact helped win over more developers and software vendors to the Java platform, and further demonstrated its staying power and value. Technical diversity is always beneficial when it's aligned with accepted standards. And, regarding alternative GUI technologies, Sun is even working to ensure effective standards-based interoperability there as well.

Some key issues to watch

Once the Eclipse organization files for incorporation, Java technology developers and the entire industry will be interested in the following issues:

  • Independence of the Executive Director of Eclipse: The organization's bylaws have given the director an unusual amount of power to form projects and assign resources. Will the director be an impartial guardian of the community (or be partial)?
  • Project staffing: Today, IBM controls 70 to 80 percent of the project staffers, who effectively operate independently of what the Board declares. Will this continue to be the case?
  • Inclusion of outside IP: If Eclipse is to grow, it must accept outside contributions from other platform vendors and should be willing to invest in the costs needed to accrete outside ideas. Ideas don't come free. Can you toe the very difficult line of being sensitive to the business interests of the participating vendors, and not just look at technology for technology's sake?

We're willing -- and able -- to help

Sun has much to contribute to the community of tool vendors and to Eclipse in particular. For example, the NetBeans open source IDE, which has achieved well over 1.8 million downloads of NetBeans version 3.5 since its release in June 2003, already delivers superb support for Web applications, for mobile clients, and for visual development of rich Java GUIs. And, the forthcoming NetBeans 3.6 release, available in February, will support Web apps for the newest J2EE specifications, including Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0.

Also, Sun has already been working to ensure that Swing GUI components can run inside of SWT containers such as Eclipse. Sun is, in fact, committed to actual Java technology interoperability, and committed to improving developers' lives to make it easier for portable Java technology-based code that works across the different vendors IDEs.

Advice and suggestions from our experience

After years of driving the Java platform and community innovation and being the lead advocate for Java technology, Sun is heavily invested in Eclipse's mission -- and has a few suggestions.

Challenge yourselves to be more than an "exemplary framework" as stated in the Eclipse mission. Push the organization to be a unifying force for Java technology.

Diversity -- with alignment -- will aid in creating a stronger Java community and industry. You've proved it. But don't define "interoperability" on your own terms, but rather work with other major players in the industry to achieve actual interoperability. Working with the Java Community Process (JCP) and the Java Tools Community (JTC) would be great entrees into the discussion.

The question is no longer: "Will the Java tools industry move to one common source base?" That's always been a non-starter when you think about the players involved. The question is: "Will the new Eclipse work with tool vendors and developers to provide the richest set of offerings and maintain the Java technology and platform leadership in a competitive marketplace?"

We need to work together to make the Java platform a better, broader base for tools. That is the real issue. We trust Eclipse will help, not hinder, the effort.


Sincerely, Sun Microsystems, Inc.

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on An open letter to Eclipse membership from Sun

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sun is sco's pimpdaddy

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2004 11:22 AM
sun?
BFD

a direct quote from sco's latest 10k:

During the year ended October 31, 2003, two significant customers, Microsoft and Sun, accounted for approximately 21 percent and 12 percent of the Company's revenue. During fiscal years 2002 and 2001, no single customer accounted for more than ten percent of the Company's total revenue.

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stop being so reductive!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2004 12:08 PM
How can you blame them for helping out another unix vendor, when that's exactly what they were for so many years? It's just their old half showing itself. The new Sun is smarter than that. You can trust them, and it's getting irritating to hear open source folks constantly ragging on Sun. Give them a chance already.

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Re:stop being so reductive!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2004 10:42 PM
duh
they're not helping out another unix vendor, they're helping sco attack ibm (sic linux). and now they're attempting to bully eclipse.

sun and sco -
if they closed their doors tomorrow the world would be a better place

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Re:stop being so reductive!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 01, 2004 05:44 AM
Easily. It's fine for them to be a UNIX vendor if they choose. But to finance the attacking of an entire community--folks who write Free Software and license it under the GPL--yet still employing folks who do exactly that (the OO.o team) and even distributing GPL/LGPL software with Solaris (GNOME, to name but one), is total hypocrisy.

Sorry, but Sun is today a hypocritical, psychotic company who appears ready to go whichever way it thinks the wind's blowing that particular minute. We applaud Sun for financing the OpenOffice.org project the way they have and continue to do; that project is what lets me have true choice both at home and work and is an exceedingly beneficial contribution. Same with their sponsorship of GNOME. If only their general corporate strategy were consistently in line with that same idea! If only they as a company were consistent! If only they would stop funding SCO's legal battle against the entire GPL legal infrastructure, not to mention our way of making Free Software!

IBM is also a UNIX vendor, don't forget--but their message is much more consistent and clear than is that of Sun Microsystems. To get at Sun's, you have to decipher it, and that message seems to be, "We *really* want to sell expensive SPARC systems (we get fatter margins than with Opterons, so to hell w/ the Opteron), but we'll do 'Linux' to look good. Oh, BTW, we still hate Microsoft, but we like SCO."

These are the bases for our criticism of Sun. They clean up their act, we won't criticize.

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Re:sun is sco's pimpdaddy

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 02, 2004 05:35 PM
Isn't this to do with license revenue; both Sun and Microsoft have licensed Unix stuff from SCO. Sun has issued an (admittedly low-key) statement to the effect that they will not be affected by the SCO/IBM/Linux legal shenanigans, because they're fully licensed.

This license arrangement was in place long before SCO decided to go after IBM.

So Sun is a licensee of SCO's. And SCO believes IBM has violated their intellectual property, and is taking legal action against IBM. WTF has that got to do with Sun? Unless you want to argue that Sun should renege its agreement in support of IBM?

It's a confused mind that can interpret this as Sun going after Linux.

The interesting thing will be that if SCO loses, has Sun been paying for a license it doesn't need?

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New name for Sun -- indian giver

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2004 05:29 PM
It seems Sun has a problem understanding GPL, and similar Free Software/Open Source Software type licenses and projects today.



Their insistence on control has left them in an increasingly isolated position." "Without IBM, Sun could never have built the success Java has enjoyed. Without Sun, however, the IBM-led Eclipse group has been making great strides.




The <A HREF="http://www.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=35776&cid=85249" TITLE="newsforge.com">new Sun is smarter than that</a newsforge.com>. You can trust them




Yeah.



Unix will be back. Really, it will. Customers will return to Solaris one day! After all, if <A HREF="http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1210897,00.asp" TITLE="eweek.com">schwartz said it</a eweek.com>, it must be true.



Schwartz, however, sees the fad of Linux wearing off in big businesses.



"There will be a transition back to Solaris," <A HREF="http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/32880.html" TITLE="theregister.co.uk">he said</a theregister.co.uk>




and even scott is a believer:



The "fad will wear off, and <A HREF="http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid39_gci928789,00.html" TITLE="techtarget.com">big business will come back</a techtarget.com> to solaris".




Sun, don't worry, everything is great. Everybody else should <A HREF="http://www.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=33368&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&tid=&cid=73123" TITLE="newsforge.com">wake up and smell the java</a newsforge.com>



And I'll trust an enterprise deployment to a company with individual leaders with the brains to make the above statements on the record.

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Java is crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 02, 2004 04:22 AM
Slow, slower, slowest...

Use Python, Perl, PHP, whatever. In my humble opinion Java sucks.

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Re:Java is crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 02, 2004 03:44 PM
Ehmmmz, little old (and VERY narrow minded) statement, but it shows your understanding of computing (or in this case, the lack of it).
I would love to see you write some "small" enterprise application in Python, Perl or PHP.
All language serve a particular purpose and enterprise applications is not one the purposes of the languages mentioned as an alternative.

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Re:Java is crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 03, 2004 04:37 AM
Not the original poster but...

I would love to see you write some "small" enterprise application in Python, Perl or PHP.
All language serve a particular purpose and enterprise applications is not one the purposes of the languages mentioned as an alternative.


That is what's happening allover the places. Sure, Java got some more credibility, and maturity to it. I'll give sun that. But clanking on PHP/python is a no-no.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D

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Re:Java

Posted by: garyuu on February 05, 2004 07:55 PM
For those who think PHP is not now aiming to grow up to enterprise applications

"enterprise applications is not one the purposes of the languages mentioned as an alternative."

you obviously aren't following the new developments being bolted on to php for the upcoming php 5 or understanding where Zend wants to take it's 'Zend Engine' [read tomorrows 'Applicaton Server']

personally I use php every day and whilst it starts small, as the individual businesses (read web sites) grow, I can't help thinking what those developers could find tried and tested in enterprise level Java a viable altenative. Java does object orientation well and was designed this way from the ground up.

If you haven't tried Java or don't understand about encapsulation and think being modular is using include files then perhaps Java is not for you.

For those who've already found their favourite language then this discussion is moot - nothing will drag you away from it I think.

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Re:Java is crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 10, 2004 10:34 PM
and so you do - how can any one compare such a shit like PHP to Java ??

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