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Face it, my kids won't use linux and yours probably won't either. Most of us use linux as a hobby. We started using it back when Windows crashed every fifteen minutes. But Windows doesn't crash anymore and linux will never appeal to the average kid.

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Most of us use Linux as a hobby? Linux will never appeal to the average kid?

I don't know what planet you're living on, but I suspect the last time you looked at Linux was about 5 years ago. In the GNU/Linux world there are so many choices, and these days the majority of them are very good quality.

My PC currently has 4 user accounts (myself, my wife and 2 friends who often visit). My desktop is 'cool' in that I have opted for funky icons, a futuristic background and a whacky colour scheme. It would probably appeal to most kids, although of course they could change it quite easily. My wife's desktop is 'simple' in that I have placed icons on it for all the things she regularly uses, removed extra clutter and made it as easy as possible for a non-technical user. I don't know what my friends' desktops look like as I haven't looked, but I would guess that one would have made his as similar to a Mac as possible, the other as similar to MS Windows as possible - that's their general preference. Note that this variety exists within _one_ installation on _one_ PC - the desktop can easily be made as appealing, trendy, fuddy-duddy, simple, professional, geeky or whacky as you want, and on a per user basis.

Although you could argue that having a PC at home is a hobby, the reason I installed Linux is that my previous MS-Windows XP installation was crashing all the time and didn't do everything I wanted. I would have had to spend a lot of money on extra software to get it to do most of it. With my chosen distribution of GNU/Linux (SuSE) I get virtually everything I need and want installed at zero cost and with virtually no effort beyond ticking a few boxes at installation time. Many other distributions give you the same - I have also used Fedora Core 2 and Mandrake 9.1 in the past, they are just as configurable.

I think the only area where Linux is currently less appealing than MS-Windows is in the area of games - but the gap is narrowing rapidly, and I reckon by the time my daughter is old enough to want to play games, there will be little to choose between the two on this criterion.

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My G/F who knows nothing about computers, 12yr old
son, and her 8yr old son use my Slackware box no
problems... Regardless of how easy or difficult the
install may be, Linux can be configured to do most
of what windows does and then some without spending
100-300 dollars for a freaking O/S then hundreds to
thousands on extra software.... Nuff Said...

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Rebuttal:
What helps Linux with the "average kid" is it's cost as compared to Windows, although essentially Windows is free either through OEM packaging or piracy.

If games were to be created for Linux standardly, that would be the turning point for it, at least in the younger generation.

Another major point to help Linux would be if the OEM's were to package with Linux or No OS.

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You miss the oportunity GNU/Linux has for the schools. For practical and ethical reason, GNU/Linux is the system of choice for the schools.
We have to make our best to provide the support and apps they needs to make sure GNU/Linux is relevant there.

My bet is they will learn GNU/Linux at school and won't be afraid to use it at home and at work after. Then the home market will come naturaly but it will take more time.

---
ofset <A HREF="http://www.ofset.org/" title="ofset.org">http://www.ofset.org/</a ofset.org>
gcompris <A HREF="http://www.ofset.org/gcompris" title="ofset.org">http://www.ofset.org/gcompris</a ofset.org>

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It should be but the fact is that changing platforms with most teachers is worse than pulling teeth. They require so much hand holding and rarely have time to learn anything new. We run Linux servers but the workstations are still Windows. Even trying to move people off Office to OpenOffice or StarOffice meets resistance. It is unfortunate especially when the money that would be saved on software could go back into salaries. Too bad people don't see things in that light.

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Oh, this is SOOOO true. My ex-roommate was a teacher. She has both a mac and PC. The amount of hand-holding she needs is INCREDIBLE. My 85 year old father needs less. The most simple of problems can't be solved by herself. SHe needs someone to show her everything. Excuse me, but isn't she a TEACHER? Shouldn't she have the skills to learn and research on her own? You would think so, but it's just not the case.

Think she is the exception? Not hardly. I have been involved with NetDay at several schools and have volunteered my time helping out at a couple schools trying to get teachers and staff up to speed with computer technology. This problem is the RULE rather than the exception. It's no wonder public education in the US is failing so badly. This problem is very obvious when it comes to technology, but believe me, it extends well beyond too.

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Apple's strategy for the longest time was to put computers in schools and then people would want to use them at home. It may have worked if they weren't so dang expensive. Linux needs the old Commodore strategy...

GAMES!

Even though Commodore never acknowledged the fact that Commodores were good for playing games.

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I think they did, especially for the VIC-20 and the C-64/128. (Maybe not so much for the Amiga.) After all, having sprites available for ML programmers is a clue, as well as auto-start cartridges.

Of course, their Office Environment (I forget the name they used) was an exception. Only the word processor ever existed and it was the most LITERAL embodiment of a typewriter I have ever seen. You had to put each piece of paper in the typewriter, hit return at the end of each line, and you couldn't even insert words and have the text flow down the page. You only had overtype (I suppose embodying white-out). It was a joke.

Later on, Berkeley Softworks had a decent OS and environment (GEOS), but they ported it to the PC and lost their shirt.

Of course I bucked the trend and wrote C and pseudo-compiled Basic programs for the C-64. My father and I developed a program to help people pass the various Ham exams. It even included graphics for the circuit problems. (IIRC these illustrations are no longer in the exams.)

It just goes to show that you can do serious work with any computer. Imagine a typing tutor on a Timex-Sinclair!

btw, I'm not sure I understand how the Commodore strategy would apply to Linux. IIRC, C-64's Kernel was open and documented (largely due to TPUG) and that's why there were so many games for it. The TI-99-4A (?) had a lot of games, but only sold BY Texas Instruments. Commodore themselves didn't sell that many games, but others made and sold THOUSANDS.

I was at a user-group meeting where a pre-teen kid was explaining to a man in a business suit how he wrote a new game every week, copied it onto tapes, and took them around to some stores to sell, for a percentage. When he was asked about how he handled the tapes that didn't sell, he said he just copied the new games over any old tapes he got back. He didn't care about last week's game, just the new one for this week. It was amusing to see the businessman boggled by the kid's insouciance to unsold inventory, normally a valuable and critical item.

parl

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I strongly suspect he is referring only to the Amiga when he says that Commodore did not acknowledge that they were good for playing games. Commodore certainly advertised this fact for the pre-Amiga models.

However, it was about this time that Commodore changed ownership, and the new ownership had the strategy that they wanted to be taken seriously as a business computer. They were afraid that the Amiga being popular as a game machine would tarnish its business image, so they purposely downplayed its game playing ability and didn't encourage game development. This was unfortunate, since it was the most game-friendly computer in existence at the time. The old management had made sure of this because games were part of their sales strategy.

In hindsight it's easy to see that the strategy of the new management was a mistake. However, you could also make a good argument that pushing the Amiga as a game machine wouldn't have made much difference in the long run because it was time for the PC to make the transition from the office to home, and people were purposely buying home PCs to be compatible with their office PCs. The truth is that we'll never know for sure.

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Good grief.

Why do you Microsoft zealots insist on posting such FUD?

I know of average families that use Linux.

I also know of average families that find using Windows XP complicated.

I don't use Linux as a hobby, I use it because:

1) It's free as in freedom - no lock-in for me.
2) It's free as in beer - for me it is, I haven't been 'forced' to pay a thing for years.
3) It has everything I need - Web, mail, graphics, development.

P.S. Windows doesn't crash anymore? It doesn't crash as much, it just responds less.

Your kids most likely won't use Linux because you're such a Microsoft zealot, and will lie to them about how evil penguins are. You wicked parent.

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Wow, why don't we just go crazy. . . ku ku.

When it comes down to it, use what you like! If you like Microsoft and it is reliable (reliability is generally a software or hardware compatibility issue, rarely an OS issue WITH ANY OS) then use their products. Many people will pay for the fact that they can feel "comfortable" with a proven market leader (like them or not, Microsoft is the market share leader for desktop OS). I have no problems with most of the OS's on the market. Matter of a fact, while I write this on my WinXP box, I am sitting next to my PowerBook and installing Fedora on a virtual machine on my XP box.

OS hatred - the new digital racism!

Can't we just all get along?

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We could all most probably get along fine if it wasn't for the FUD that's spread about Linux/Open Source.

If everybody wasn't so scared of Linux/Open Source, they wouldn't be finding any excuse whatsoever to dismiss it.

For me it's not OS hatred, Windows isn't worth hating! I vehemently oppose Microsoft's anti-competitive actions though. I vote for competition and freedom.

I would never assume that everybody else has the same views and experiences as me. I wouldn't suggest, just because I don't like the taste of pepperoni pizza, that nobody else will ever eat it, and that spinnach pizza will soon replace all other flavors.

The phrase 'Linux zealots' is so common these days, even if you say, "Hey, Linux is pretty neat", you'll probably be labelled as one.

I decided from now on, I shall use the term 'Microsoft zealots', to depict those who are pro-Microsoft and find any argument they can, no matter how pathetic, to try and belittle Linux/Open Source.

Now I think that sounds fun.

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There's another reason, and this is (IMHO) why we see individuals, not paid directly by Microsoft to do so, posting about how insanely great Windows is compared to Windows.

Lots of people will lose a good chunk of their retirement fund if Microsoft dies.

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Everyone I know uses it, and that's a pretty fair number. They all have kids, and the kids use it too.

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Installing Windows on a pristine computer can be a pain in the neck. Just ask my wife. Recently, she bought a computer with no OS and tried to install Windows XP. Everything worked well, until it came time for the OS to detect the modem and network card. No drivers on the Windows CD. So, she popped in the third-party drivers CD. Of course, the CD contained A LOT of drivers. My wife, who is very computer savvy, didn't know which driver to use. After considerable trial and error, she lucked onto the right software. She also experienced some problems with the sound card.

As I said, my wife is knowledgable. Imagine what would happen if the "average" computer user ran into these problems with Windows?

And anyone have experience with PCs or laptops pre-loaded with Linux? That would be a better comparison to make.

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My 14 year old sister prefers it to windows xp. Why she saw that it is stable, faster, and has all kinds of cool games to play. She surfs the web and IMs most of the time she loves it. Plus she loves all the cool wallpapers with cute penguins on them she found. She uses Xandros but wants to switch to Debian Sarge after seeing my laptop install of it. Which is probably a good idea because even though she can install from the debian repositories she has to be carefull because it is easy to goof Xandros's kde install. Oh, and she has root of her own box knows how to install software that she wants(mostly games go figure) and even switch the network routing to use a dialup connection when the high speed is down(Damn wireless high speed)

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- 2 adults, 4 kids ages 7-15.
- 3 computers, 4 counting the firewall on a DSL connection.
- 0 active Windows installs (have had Windows install drive on the shelf for almost a year now).
- Kids use OpenOffice.org at home and take files to school for printing from MS Word.
- Wife uses OpenOffice.org Writer and Calc to exchange Word and Excel files with school volunteers. MS zealot on school volunteer board does not even know my wife does not use MS.
- Epson printer "just works"
- Canon printer "just works"
- Umax scanner "just works"
- Canon digital camera "just works"
- Canon digital video camera "just works"
- Kids love Frozen Bubble, Kolf and SuperTux because they come with "level builders" to create their own game levels.
- Kids love kstars
- Daughter love GAIM to IM all her friends who are running Windows
- Daughter loves GIMP and says it's better than Photoshop she has to use at school.
- Son loves Robocode to learn Java development.
- I love "apt-get install [new program]" to automatically install nearly any program anyone needs.
- My kids love Tux the penguin!
- Oh, yeah, one more thing. Complete control over internet usage AND no worries about viruses, trojans, spyware, etc. ("Dad, what is this zip attachment from my friend. It won't run." "It's a virus, delete it.")
- $0 dollars paid to license ALL the software my family needs and most all the software my family wants.

At my house, any time anyone uses a computer, they are using Linux. And they like it.

I can, however, agree with you that "linux will never appeal to the average kid." My kids are proof. They are way above average!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^)

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I have a linux family here too.

This is worth a read.
http://linux.about.com/library/bl/open/newbie/bln<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> wbie4.3.7.htm

You can have a set of concurrent multiple logins. I use 4, one for each member of my family. You can hotkey [ctrl][alt][F-key] between sessions. The sessions stay active so everything stays just like it was. This is much better than Microsoft's so called "fast user switching".

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Linux family here, too. The kids dual boot, but use the Windows side only for a few games. Everything else is all Linux. For the past three years, all four of us have been using it on our three desktops. The funniest thing is when my daughter's friends come to visit, and she shows them the games she plays on Linux, and how she uses it to play ogg files like her computer was a stereo. True story, her friends immediately start complaining to their parents, "How come WE don't use Linux like [name deleted] does? Why can't I have Linux on MY computer?"

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I would like to do the same.
I use Debian for everything - I used to use Windows for Quicken, but now it works fine under Wine since I added some horsepower to my main box (dual-boot Debian/Win98).

My wife uses Windows for everything, "everything" being Outlook Express and the basic card games bundled with Windows. I've tried to get her to use KMail but she won't switch unless I figure out how to get her address book and previous messages (approx 3000, *all* in the inbox in chronologic order, no other folders!) transferred over. I am certain that MS intentionally makes this difficult - it is like trying to get the roaches out of a roach motel.

My 6 year old daughter loves the "Penguin System" and would use it exclusively if I could get her educational games (Jump Start, Reader Rabbit, etc) to work with Wine, but I can't.

I recently put together a nifty small form-factor system for my daughter's room with both WinXP and Debian. This was my first real contact with XP - for a knowledgable user, it seems thoroughly dumbed-down to the point of being intentionally obfuscated.

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To move Outlook email to Kmail:

1. Set up a Linux server with mail + imap
2. Connect from Outlook to imap-mail server
3. copy Outlook folders to imap-mail server
4. install Linux on wife's PC
5. use Kmail/kontact to connect to imap-mail
6. copy imap folders to local inbox
7. Be merry

To import address book:

1. From Outlook, export contact to csv file format
2. From KAddressBook/Kontact, import contacts from csv file
3. Be merry

Peace,
Josep

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Kmail does have an utility called KmailCVT that allows one to import Outlook Express mails boxes as well as Pegasus Mail and other mbox-style mailboxes (Evolution comes to mind). It used to be a separate app some time ago and I believe it still can be called outside of Kmail, but all you have to do is start Kmail, click in Tools > Import Messages...

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Or dude, at least if she's going to keep using Windows, switch her to Mozilla instead of Outlook. Downloading Mozilla's Windows exe file is trivial, and importing is easy, too.

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Try this trick: install Mozilla Thunderbird on windows, then use the import tools to get everything. Emails AND Address Book

Now you have full standard UNIX mbox files inside your profile directory inside Application Data\Thunderbird\profile\fjerwol\ (or something).

I presume both email and addressbook files are portable simply by copying them between Windows and Linux Mozilla Thunderbird.

If afterward you want to switch to something else (like kmail or whatnot), you can always export the address book to vcard format, or csv format, and simply copy your mbox files.

I've done full conversions away from Outlook Express many times: maybe slow, but exellent!

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My 4 year old and 6 year old love Gcompris. They actually learn something. My 6 year old is learning to play end games of chess.

http://www.ofset.org/gcompris/

Linux saves a fortune by not having to buy games.

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1) My 14 year-old brother has been using Linux for 4 years because he likes it better than Windows.

2) I use Linux as my *only* OS. There is nothing at all that Windows has and Linux doesn't that I need. Whereas there is a lot that Linux has and Windows doesn't which I do need very much.

Cheers,
Daniel.

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"Windows doesn't crash anymore"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Maybe - it just gets "funky" after a couple of days straight running, especially if you do a lot of surfing. Eventually you reboot just to get rid of the wierd behavior.

Oh, wait. Your average Windows user just turns his machine off at night. He's never conceived of actually leaving it running and using it continuously for a week at a time (let alone months like the average Linux user.)

So he never sees this behavior and thinks WIndows "never crashes."

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Blah. You guys are all kidding yourselves and, deep down inside, you know it.

I only shut down my XP box when I go away for the weekend. It runs for a month at a time with no problems. I run the latest games with no problems or delays. I run the genuine, mainstream software products that Linux/open source products (like OOo) strive to emulate. I never, ever, have to use a command prompt, wacky config files, or FAQs written by teenagers to figure things out.

I've installed many, many distros and copies of Linux from SUSE to RedHat to YellowDog. Bottom line, Linux is great for server functions and is decent as a personal desktop OS, but it's 100% crap to say that it's anywhere near as polished, compatible, and easy-to-install/understand as XP.

If you choose to put up with Linux's quirks, bruises, and inconsistency because you dislike/distrust MSFT, at least have the sack to say that's your reason.

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I, too, leave my Win2k boxes on all the time. For the most part my file server win2k box is only powered down during power failures and I'll have to reboot my workstation about once or twice a month. Of course, I don't run Outlook (or OE) and I don't run Internet Explorer either.

However, to say that winXp is easy-to-install? Have you ever installed XP? Have you ever installed XP on a diskless machine with a SCSI card? I can't belive how much crap the Win2k and WinXP install is, even compared to Win98.

Just this week, I installed Lycoris, Xandros and SUSE 9.1 on a PIII 500. All three were incredibly easy to get installed and the Lycoris desktop ran amazingly well on 128 megs of Ram. My only complaint is that the install takes a really long time (heh, Lycoris lets you play klondike while loading the machine). After install, however, it's pretty quick. Updates are far faster than Window's Update. Overall, I'm very impressed with the experience these distros provided.

Just for the record, I stuck with SUSE. It's a bit more sluggish than Lycoris, but I liked YAST.

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There isn't that big of a reliability difference any more (if any) on two systems that are both stripped down server boxes. The biggest difference is that patching more often requires a reboot in windows than in linux (I reboot both anytime I patch but it's because I'm not in a business critical environment so I can afford to) but on a desktop box both have trouble and need rebooting from time to time. X is at least as flakey as anything short of a bad video driver that's native to the Windows GUI. Also apps are generally more flakey on Linux (really in X) than Windows. On a server box, unless you've got some crappy memory chomping code running both are super stable these days. On a workstation Windows is still a more stable better choice with less work even from a base install. That said due to some philosophical issues with M$ I still run Linux (Gentoo flavored) on 90% of my workstations.

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You don't happen to be running the nVidia binary drivers? I have not heard of any flakiness in XFree other than from those in many years. But I do hear about people having problems with the nVidia drivers on at least a weekly basis still.

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I do.
Gentoo on my AthlonXP 2600+ with 256MB RAM.
I'm currently using a LeadTek GeForce 4 MX 440 64MB AGP 8x card.
I've only had video probs a couple times with the nvidia bins. Don't even remember when the last time was.

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My record uptime was set on the third of this month, at 30 days, 21 hours. I'll give you the background though: I installed SuSE 9.1 professional on June 25th, 2004, and ran it for a couple days, shut down, went on vacation for a couple days, came back, booted it up, and used it continuously for usually at least 4 or 5 hours a day, 8 or 10 on others. At 6:10 PM, on August 3rd, I was robbed of my beautiful, almost 31 day uptime by a thunderstorm.

Also, I've got a Pentium II 400 MHz with 384 MB of RAM and an upgraded (to 20 GB) harddrive. I am happier with this than I was with Windows 2000.

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There is nothing for me to face. I have four children living at home with me. They all use Linux routinely, even the five year old. It's either that, or wait for hours on end to get to the single household Windows computer.

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They like the games, and are very unhappy with me because right now, there isn't a Linux box in the houase that they can use. Our kids are 9.5, 6 and 1.5. We keep a Windows box for Reader Rabbit, but other than that, we have no use for commercial software.

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My kids actually prefer Linux. They like the simple, 2d puzzle games. I like the fact that they can do whatever they want with the system because they aren't runnnig as super-user.

As family considerations go, Linux wins hands-down.

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Are you people High?!??!
My god, your ignornace is staggering.
You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?
Well, I'm a computer person. I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!

Ready for prime time?
Are you a fucking idiot?

Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.

Stoooopid meatballs.

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http://knoppix.org/ is probably something you should look at.

oh, and you mispelled 'stupid'.

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"So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux."

Um... You had to have choosen wrong. If it all fully supported Linux, it should have worked. Right?

I have installed various flavors of Linux on many different boxes. The biggest problems I have had were with odd sound cards and "winmodems." Occasionally X was configured wrong and had to be tweaked. This is over the past 5 years or so. None of these issues took over a few hours, tops, to fix.

I must say that I simply don't believe that "fully supporting linux" hardware would take 2 months to install Linux on.

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Heh! He must have missed that story about Asus refusing to support Linux on their motherboards.

I've installed various flavors of Linux on some of the oddest combinations of hardware you can imagine. A lot of it is equipment that other folks (Windows support people, mostly) thought was junk and that I rescued from dumpsters. Except for some unidentifiable SCSI adapters (that had been bundled with scanners) I haven't encountered any problems that couldn't be resolved.

I administer Solaris systems and Tru64 clusters -- as well as the occasional HP-UX and AIX box -- for a living. Perhaps the grandparent poster would benefit by branching out a bit. (Just a thought.)

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Are you an idiot or something? If you REALLY bought parts that were known to be compatible with linux, put them together CORRECTLY, and couldn't get linux installed, you ARE an idiot. Did you try a true plug-and-play version like Knoppix? If that doesn't boot you probably need to take the ram out of the PCI slot and put it in the memory slot where it belongs.

A frickin monkey can run solaris on Sun hardware. That qualification gets you nowhere. Educate yourself and see how much better life is.

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Wow, never have I been so ashamed to be in IT and a Windows User. Please let me apologize for all of my Win Bretheren and please understand that this cranially deficient individual does not represent the 99.999% of IT professionals running Windows. Matter-of-fact, as soon as we find him, we will make sure he cannot reproduce. . .

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Oh, you poor, poor man...

In the morning, when you go to work, do you sit in your car for half an hour, frustrated, before finally remembering the big vroom-vroom doesn't go until you put in the key?

When you get to work, do you stare at the blank monitor for ten minutes while you try and remember how to use the KVM switch?

Do you sometimes wake up in a coffee shop, with a sandwich hanging out of your gaping mouth, and a table full of college kids staring and pointing at you while one takes photos with his digital camera?

Don't be afraid. Many, many other people have had similar problems, including a president of the united states. If the Gipper can suffer from this terrible malady and still control the largest stockpile of nukes in the world without killing us all, I'm sure you can continue your Solaris management duties too.

But I think you should stay away from Linux. There's a "functioning forebrain" requirement you might have compatability problems with...


   

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What were you doing for two months? It's just not that hard to install most modern distribution of Linux. Fedora Core 2 almost installs itself, put the disk in, boot. Click OK a few times. Enter some network information. Add a root password and a regular user account and that's about it. It takes about 45 minutes on a newer machine.
Can you give some specifics? What didn't work?

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Well, I played basketball twice a week for 8 years and I still suck... Doing something frequently does not imply you are good at it. This may sound harsh but you sound outright shrill.

On the other hand, my boss stuck SuSE 9.1 on a Toshiba laptop in an hour and it worked. He is certainly not a Linux guy.

Really, it isn't rocket science.

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Here's perfect <A HREF="http://www.despair.com/demotivators/incompetence.html" title="despair.com">gift</a despair.com> for the guy who spends two months attempting to install Linux on "commodity" hardware and still can't get it working:

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My god!

Companies actually HIRE people like you?

I am a tile setter. Let me say that again...

I AM A TILE SETTER...I am a High school drop out...I have NEVER attended a computer Technical school...

BUT...I KNOW HOW TO READ!

I admit, I couldn't get Red Hat to install easily, BUT...

I got SuSE 8 up no problem. In fact, you moron, SUSE recognized my Audigy sound card, Nvidia card, netgear ethernet, Pentium III (coppermine) brandless DVD drive and Phillips CD-R/W, Maxtor 20Gig HDD, serial ports, parallel ports AND EXTERNAL MODEM, AND USB mouse working fine...Oh, and the Maxtor branded Promise IDE-133 controller.

Windows 2000, and later WinXP failed to install easily because of the HDD controller card...it didn't know what it was out of the box. It also failed to know what sound I was running, let alone get the sound GOING. Also, I had to use my external Modem to get a current WORKING ethernet controller off of the net, as well as the drivers (and instruction)for the modem to operate correctly (above 28.8)under windows.

The modem installer didn't work properly under windows; I had to do what they recommend I DON'T do: add hardware>modem>etc.

And, as a coup d' grace BECAUSE OF THE HDD install requirement, not only was I forced to install a floppy drive to load the Promise driver at install time, a bug prevented me doing any more 'critical updates' a few months ago requiring a 'clean install'...of course, because I KNOW HOW TO READ, and PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT I'M DOING, I actually was able to find a great kludge for the HDD problem: install WinXP w/ the original built in 100 IDE controller, install a current driver then swap it over to the card.

If you're wondering why i'm a tile installer and not a computer tech, the reason is simple, but lost on STUPID IT folk like you: I want to respect myself in the morning. I don't want to promulgate lousy tech from an unethical company that wants to force their working habits on me. Learning HOW is unfulfilling (how do I set up windows); WHY feeds the soul (why is this app/method/organization better?) It is the quintessential HUMAN question: not HOW do I live but WHY do I live!

Your problem is not that Linux is hard, or geared to the professional, but you just want to make a pile of loot, tell people you're a computer guru and be revered for what you think you know. The truth is YOU are just repeating what someone else tells you is good.

Philosophically, your mind is CLOSED SOURCE. Not open to new ideas, or true learning, but a sponge for doctrine. In Galileo's day you would be the first priest to recommend he be imprisoned.

Unless you miss the point, I state it explicitly: If you can't figure out how to install modern linux (Hey, I gave up on linux until SuSE 8!) and resolve issues (i'm trying to get MP3 encoding for my new car stereo which doesn't recognize Ogg Vorbis) then I will GLADLY change jobs with you to prove my point.

Sadly, I doubt you could even make a capable tile Mechanic's Helper.

Oh, and by the way, about that modem: If I boot windows with it OFF, then decide to turn it on it would NOT recognize it, or know what port it was on. to get around this problem I would either have to adjust via administrative account, or reboot with the modem ON.

Suse, on the other hand, NEVER had a problem.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...end rant

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"You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?"

Yes. Do you?

"I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!"

See previous question.

"I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!"

Then you should REALLY call HR and see if you can get your pay scale readjusted. There's GOT to be a better use for that money.

My (now 13-year-old) daughter has been using Linux for three years. Linux installed on her current computer flawlessly. She dual boots for games, and I timed the install; Mandrake installed with less hassle in half the time of Windows.

I built her computer using a hardware ISA modem (before broadband), a generic Sound-Blaster-compatible PCI sound card, a $10 ethernet card, LG DVD-ROM, Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro keyboard and mouse, Epson 580 printer, and an nVidia video card. No problems AT ALL with the install. It's now networked to my Linux box (nVidia, 5.1 sound, card readers, Yamaha CD burner, generic DVD-ROM, Monsoon sound system, Grado Labs SR60 headphones, Logitech wireless MX700 mouse and keyboard, and a Epson 610 scanner) through a D-Link DI-704P router with a Compaq WL400 wireless access point (talking to my Apple Newton 2100).

It just ain't that hard. Try using a distro that's not five years old next time.

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Pardon, sorry; I seem to have entered a timewarp and stumbled upon Adequacy.org. I'll be on my way now, off to a place where tired old trolls aren't preying on (apparently gullible) more sincere readers.

Then again, if you're sincere, you're a drooling moron, and should lay off whatever it is you're on right now. Dang. "Do you realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?" I sincerely hope you're not a native English speaker, or that you're too inebriated to even bother with proper punctuation. It could be that you're just not terribly bright. After all, you seem to suggest that because someone just buying commodity parts that needs two months to get Linux up and going on random hardware logically leads to Linux not being ready for the desktop.

I would salute you, but it's so unoriginal it hurts, and your illogical argument is the basis of nearly every anti-Linux troll I've seen in the last 7 years. Die.

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Lessee now...
-=> Are you people High?!??!

Why, looking for some candy?

-=> My god, your ignornace is staggering.

Says the monkey in the cage...

-=>You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?

I believe this has been made fun of enough this thread.

-=>Well, I'm a computer person. I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
-=> I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!

Then quite honestly, as stated, you're obviously a moron. As my Asus motherboard, Kingston memory, and 'etc' work fine 'out of the box' on slackware linux. Apparently I've heard it works great on debian, knoppix sees it fine, redhat saw it fine (though I dislike redhat), and though I've not tried it, I would wager Suse would eat it for breakfast. I could have it on the net in 2 hours.

-=>I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!

Then you're an idiot. Solaris runs on SPARC (unless you get their borked intel version), dumbass. It's like shouting out 'I should be able to get windows working because I'm certified in DOS!'. if you couldn't get it working in 2 months, why didn't you bother posting to the THOUSANDS of support boards for linux on it, or did you think your 'expert unix skills' could pull you through, even after pounding your head against the wall for all those weeks?

Stop trolling.

-=>Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.

I did. I handed the slackware CD to an MCSE certified MS geek at work, who thought unix was a guy who had no testicles. He not only had his box running with slackware in under 2 hours, but he loves it so much, he wiped his XP server at home to replace it with a linux file server. Something about stability and ease of installation impressed him. Just can't figure that out, but I guess it was because he didn't know unix beforehand. Huh.

My cousin also installed linux in under a day. Her first problem was she inserted the CD upside down in the drive. The second because she hit eject on the CD before it finished booting. But she still had it going in 24 hours. By doing nothing more than RTFM.

-=>Stoooopid meatballs.

Ignorant putz.

You make myself and other unix admins look stupid. Stop talking.

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Did you try to install Linux-From-Scratch on a 386?

#

Actually yes.

Gateway 386/20SX. 512K video, 4M memory, 65M harddrive (MFM/RLL)

Even got X to work (in 640x480)

Can take pictures of it incase anyone wants to see.

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I'm an I.T. Manager in a Windows environment. I bought SUSE 9.1, stuck it in my Acer Windows XP laptop, and had it double booting into XP and SUSE in about 1.5 hours. Only issue was a problem with a driver for my built-in wi-fi. I've installed Windows on machines which took me much longer to get up and running. Yes, I am a tech savvy person, but at least I can say that I am worth the big bucks that I get paid. Two months to get Linux up and running, and still failed? As a tech person, you should be ashamed to admit that.

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May I join the fray?

"Are you people High?!??!"

Missed that one, sorry.

"My god, your ignornace is staggering."

Pot calling the kettle black, comes to mind.

"You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?"

No, I'm a humble labourer.

"Well, I'm a computer person."

A pretty thick one by the looks.

"I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!"

Wow. I deliver firewood and make concrete building panels.

Hmmm, I've installed Linux on PCs from the humble 486 up. Couple of hours max. One reboot.

"Ready for prime time?
Are you a fucking idiot?"

See above about pot...

"Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.

Stoooopid meatballs. "

Look whose a silly boy then. Care to swap jobs?

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I recently bought an IBM T22 from ebay.

I installed Windows 2000 & Mandrake to dual-boot.

Installation time for Windows + Office + Mozilla (required for internet security) + drivers + firewall was over 6 hours - and it's still a bare bones system compared to:-
Mandrake 9.2 wich installed in 25 minutes - and everything just worked as all drivers were automatically found.

I've been using Linux as my desktop for 4 years and I guess I'm just spoiled as I now expect to find all the software I need installed with the operating bsystem.

#

You have to fuck more so you will get less choleric.

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My kids use linux almost on a daily basis...all three of them (ages 7, 5 and 16 months).

Actually Windows does crash frequently still. Even Windows XP still crashes or locks up quite often, and when it isn't crashing or locking up it's being infected or attacked by virii and spy ware.

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What are you talking about when you say that kids will not use it. Kids tend to more open minded than adults. My 11 year old son uses a Mac at school and at home he has a Windows ME / Fedora dual boot PC. Both OSs are used about equaly. He uses Windows for games and Office. The Fedora is used for Firefox and Linux games.

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I'm 12 and I can use a linux computer easily, in fact I use it much more than windows.

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Id say "kids" make up a large percent of linux users. Im 19 and have been using it for 5 years or so.

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I'm 17 and I've been using Linux for 9 months... I'm ashamed I didn't keep using Mandrake 7.1 when I got it so many years ago... I really wish I did, I've learned so much in these 9 months, image what I would of learned in the ~4 years I've had that box...

If only it wasn't for those damn winmodems and that buggy AGP card (that caused me to have to format and reinstall windows about once 6 months).

On my other computer I have Windows XP for games (Starcraft, Counterstrike, etc). Though I play all new games on my Laptop running FC2 (UT2k4, Neverwinter Nights, I don't buy many games). I installed CounterStrike a while ago on my laptop but never used it because until recently I didn't have a mouse for it (just the little built in pad, which isn't the best thing in the world for FPS)

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Well, my kids may not use it (don't have kids yet) but my mom has been using it for years. No, she isn't any kind of computer guru. She just wanted something that actually works consistently and is stable that doesn't require paying large sums of money to an evil empire...

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my kids won't use linux and yours probably won't either

Wrong.

The only thing my kids envy MS-Windows for is the range of commercial edutainment software ("Grandma and me" and the like) available only for MS-Windows and the Mac. Now that there are officially more Linux desktops than Mac kicking around, I don't expect that monopoly/duopoly to last.

They play games, the older one edits stuff, browses and messages with wild abandon, everybody happy, everybody sing!

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i don't understand why the author of this article says that windows doesn't come with any software. if he'd only look, you'd find a ton of apps that come with windows. Notepad, calculator, windows media player, msn messenger, built-in winzip, etc, etc, etc.

Look, when something is privatized it is always better. although it may cost more, it is always better.

Also, linux doesn't run the great new games we have today, and windows is a world standard with 95% of all computers using windows, people design everything for windows if it is actually built to be used, otherwise it is just for those people who download freeware. And I don't know about you, but last time i checked. industry standard software such as autocad, and photoshop are not free programs, and nothing in freeware even comes close to power that you get when you have real, professional programmers, who are actually paid to program, programming programs for people to use. When sa program is created by a company, it has a customer base that it is targeting and if they didn't adhere to the necessities of the customer, the customer wouldn't use it.

Although i have to say that I hate Adobe Acrobat and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.pdf files. acrobat is slow, pdf's are huge, and it is a pain to edit, or use forms in, and it just sucks. sorry, i know that was off the topic, but i had to let that out

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I will not argue that Windows comes with a lot of apps because it does. Just like Linux desktops do. Notepad, calculator, media player, messenger, winzip e.t.c. all have their equivalents on Linux desktops.
Sometimes interoperability on Windows is better than on the Linux desktop, security tends to be much better on the Linux desktop. This is a trade off, where your own preferences, security or ease of use, makes the difference.

This leaves us with your argument that the great games of today are Windows only. Even though this isn't universally true, I'll give you that point.
But are DirectX games "Desktop"? To me they aren't Desktop applications.

When I think of desktop functionality, I think of browsing, Instant-Messageing, officework, some simple 'in-window' gaming possibly, listening to music, watching TV and the security to keep all this working without cosntant vigilance, but not Doom3. The TV bit is arguably not a Desktop app either, but the way I use my software, a window in the corner of my extended desktop, I think it is.

I use both Windows and Linux at home. Linux, for everything that I consider to be Desktop functionality and Windows for gaming.

Still, I do believe that Linux isn't the Desktop OS for the masses, basically because in the current situation Linux requires a bit more 'awareness' on the users' part than Windows.
For example, using Ximian's Red-Carpet, especially with Open-Carpet strapped on, gives you access to a plethora of stable software for just about anything. You do have to know it's out there. It doesn't come with every distibution.

Oddly enough when it comes to security, it's the other way around. Then you have to be as vigilant as, well, something very, very vigilant when using Windows. The built in firewall on Windows XP doens't really cut it in my opinion.

basically what I'm saying is, Linux for the Desktop has moved forward to a point where the choice between Linux or Windows, or Mac for the Desktop has become a case of personal preference where if security means anything to you, Windows drops out almost immediately.

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Windows doesn't really come with many USEFUL applications and utilities and THAT is the point of the article. Notepad - it's horrible - I don't think ANY of the editors on unix is worse or less powerful. Wordpad is no better. Abiword blows it away. As for office software, MS office does not come with Windows at all; it's an expensive extra. Open Office of course is available for both windows and Unix, but now comes standard on Many flavors of Linux but ZERO flavors of Windows. Calculator? Pile of crap. Much better options for Linux. Etc., etc., etc.

Look, when something is privitized (closed source monopoly is a more accurate description here), you get one flavor and it is NOT always better AND it costs more.

The IE-OE combo for example is THE most insecure pile of crap ever created in the history of the universe. Nothing is worse. Not only has it been DESIGNED to be insecure, it was also designed to NOT follow standards. Hell, even the government recommends not using IE. This of course TOTALLY blows your "privitized is always better" statement out of the water.

The whole industry around windows is about making money and that's it. That's why even simple little utilities end up costing $25-$50 where all the Linux equivilants are free.

As for games, so what. Dual boot or get a console. Out of all the people I know who use a computer at home, less that 5% play games on it. As for business - games are TOTALLY irrelavant.

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"I don't think ANY of the editors on unix is worse or less powerful"

What about ed? Ed is the standard editor, you know.

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First: ED is a line editor, Notepad is a screen editor.

Second, There are a lot of things that ED is capable of yet Notepad not. How about auto configure your NB's IP and DNS during booting in different environments

Third. We have a thick book on ed and that is a joy to read.

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Ed is more powerful than notepad. Ed supports regular expressions. Ed was originally written in 1981, many many years before notepad existed. Ed may not be GUI, but it IS more powerful in what it can do.

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I have a lot to disagree with concerning this comment.

First, others have noted that some of this "great" software that is supplied with Windows is...not so great. Yes, Notepad is a total piece of junk, for one. I don't trust Microsoft, so I have never trusted their calculator, therefore have never used it, and can't make a judgement on it.

Now let's talk about "privatized" software (really a misnomer in my opinion).

That is old-think. I don't think a reasonable person can say that collaboration is unproductive; quite the opposite. You often get far better applications from the open-source community than from commercial providers. Open-Source collaboration is perhaps becoming the "new way" to build software. IBM and others are finding this out.

As far as games go, I have very little use for them. I don't have time to play computer games (in fact, I would much rather play a stand-up video game console, such as you find in an gaming arcade). I think that a lot of productivity is lost in offices because of solitaire or some other game. Games are irrelevant to me. If all you do is play games on a computer, go and buy a Windows box or a gaming console. I don't have either.

I suspect that a lot of programmers who write programs for GNU/Linux would take issue with your remark:

"And I don't know about you, but last time i checked. industry standard software such as autocad, and photoshop are not free programs, and nothing in freeware even comes close to power that you get when you have real, professional programmers, who are actually paid to program, programming programs for people to use."

They would say "I beg your pardon, I AM a professional programmer." And they do get paid in a fashion - they receive additions and refinements of their code (provded by someone else). These people often do Open Source programming for the love of it, which in many cases gives them more satisfaction than a paycheck can (I know, you can't live on satisfaction, these programmers do this, in a lot of cases, in their spare time).

Take my situation. I am an electronics and computer technician and when I build my own electronics, there is not only the satisfaction of doing it myself, and doing it well, but there is one more facet to this. I have no production schedules and can incorporate quality parts and pieces because I don't have to abide by a cost limitation if I don't want to. Same with these programmers- they can take the time needed to do it right.

And getting to the meat of the matter here, I have installed Linux a bunch of times,. Sometimes it goes very easily, sometimes a lot more trouble is involved. Windows has generally always been a pain in my posterior. Someone mentioned that if you try to put something other than an OEM version of Wondows on a computer, you will run into the same driver issues you run into with Linux. And you are rewarded with poor reliability and poorer security.

I am quite productive with my Linux machine, always have been. I can design and professional quality P.C. boards, draw schematics and do anything that is required in electronic design. Have been doing so since kernel 1.09. I gave up Windows a long time ago and have never felt a lack of "professionally-programmed" applications. Because there are plenty provided with all Linux distributions.

Now on to your last comment. I don't think pdf files are all that bad - they are one of the few truly cross-platform methods to share documents. As far as size goes, try comparing a Microsoft Word document to the same document as a pdf file. Amazing how much bigger the Word file is, and needlessly larger (Why the meta data?). Not to mention that the Acrobat reader is free. Not so of Word (although I am told that a free Word reader for Windows - not much use in my case).

Finally, something jumped out at me in your post. You used the term "great new games". This is Microsoft Speak. Notice how they never say "Quality Software", "Reliable software" or "Secure software" when describing their software or operating systems. That's because they really can't say that. So they use the ambiguous "great". This indicates something to me - they know how lousy their products really are.

Sorry, I have to disagree with a great deal of what you say. Linux may not computing nirvana, but it sure as hell is a lot closer than Windows has been (for me at least).

kb9aln

#

i don't understand why the author of this article says that windows doesn't come with any software. if he'd only look, you'd find a ton of apps that come with windows. Notepad, calculator, windows media player, msn messenger, built-in winzip, etc, etc, etc.

There are a number of built-in apps with Windows. It's when you need to do something more than basic functionality that you find things are missing. Spreadsheet? You'll have to buy that; it's included in several different programs included with Linux. Database program, oh, sorry it's extra with Windows; there are probably at least 5 included in your Linux distribution or available free, from full-blown databases such as Postgres to Mysql to simpler fare, plus if you do want to buy proprietary packages for really poweful stuff you have a choice of Oracle and DB2 same as NT. And they will run on less-powerful hardware, or almost certainly give better peformance over anything on NT/2000/XP on the same hardware.

Look, when something is privatized it is always better. although it may cost more, it is always better.

All software, with the exception of a few minor items such as certain mathematical libraries, is 'privatized' as opposed to created by the government. I think the word you want here is 'proprietary' not 'privatized'.

Try to make that claim on Microsoft's IIS web server vs. Apache. I run Apache as a local server on a Windows 98 box and use it to run a test version of PHP Nuke. Try to run IIS on Windows 98. Oh, that's right it only runs on NT and above, sorry. Oh, well, there's Microsoft Personal Web Server. Think that will do as much as Apache?

How about the entire toolchain for checking and debugging IP connections (Ping, traceroute, dns, nslookup, etc.) I can almost guarantee that any Linux distribution has all of them, plus daemons to run some of these as servers so you can set up a Linux box to do just about anything as far as providing internet connectivity or services. Not something you can always do with NT/2000/XP Pro.

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"when something is privatized it is always better"

that is at least a massive political assumption.

to me personally it is an abomination!

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I just read Linux desktop viability myths exploded and wanted to comment. By the way, I am responding via my W2K work laptop - just FYI. Anyway:
1. A few weeks ago I installed Mandrake 10 on a home desktop. I know nothing of Linux - squat. If someone has trouble installing Mandrake 10 then I suggest they review their day - beginning with what injuries they incurred getting out of bed. Installing Mandrake 10 on an old, empty 15GB HD I had could not have been easier. The box has the normal range of modern goodies - DVD/RW drive, USB ports, printer, scanner, dual LAN ports, 128 meg video card, etc. All were recognized and configured.

2. I took the time to choose individual packages and was rewarded. All software worked. Period. Zip utility, Office applications, Palm apps (I have a Tungsten C), internet, burning software, LAN/file/disk sharing. Now, I had to take the time to figure out what apps did what as it was all new to me. I mean what the hell king of name is SM4b or K3b - I think those names are close-whatever. They work. They work very well and despite their names are very intuitive. I can't tell you how pleasing it is to have all the software I need install in one fell swoop and work. None of this do a backup - install - pray it doesn't break something - curse - restore backup and try again.

3. I had to play with the desktop to get it the way I wanted it. It took time to figure it out but once I found where things were the actual changes/modifications were a walk in the park.

4. I love how the update process covers everything - all applications that are installed and needed updates were listed. Now for the best part - close to 500MB of updates later and everthing still works! Updating didn't break a thing. That is refreshing. Normally, it's just like intalling apps. Backup - install update - pray - curse - reinstall backup - go out to internet and find fixes for fixes.

5. I am an Average Joe and father of 3. Price matters. Not as much as performance (performance meaning I can use it, it does what it sais it does and is reliable) but it sure as hell matters. Mandrake wins again.

6. It will take time, but Linux has a convert. I am converted based on the practicals of useability and price.

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actually, I think a fair number of people using linux are 1) developers who perfer that environment to write software in, 2) people who maintain a linux server or 3) people who used to use UNIX. I'm in the 3rd category... well, to be honest I used to be until I switched to mac os x, but at any rate, before that I was using Suns/HPs/SGIs/etc at work... and eventually everything went to linux.

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Well I'm not in any of those categories. I use Linux soley on the Desktop. IM, web browser, occasionally e-mail, music, videos, DVDs (my windows box DVD player that I got for my birthday for some reason has region code errors and can't play DVDs because it claimed my system was set to region 1 and it couldn't play the DVD because it was set to region 1, so I was forced to get 3rd party software to remove region codes), and RSS news feeds.

Now gaming is starting to move away from my Windows box to my Linux laptop (UT2k4, Neverwinter Nights). Windows only has Starcraft, and is losing CounterStrike (installed in Linux just haven't tryed it ATM).

Looks like I'm going to have to keep a box around solely for StarCraft, or find out if StarCraft will play inside of VMware.

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I disagreed but then I pretty much give up convincing people who look at things negatively. Yes,I am a Linux/open source marketing professional and I've been sellinglinux for years--hardware, software/services, training, etc.

Just my humble opinion, it gets easier and easier every year. More colleges are deploying linux, especially the good ones--MIT, Harvard, Caltech, Berkeley, Stanford. What is the message? If you want your kids to go to good school, get them using linux and windows. No reason to choose either or but use both.

a lot of off hours prep centers for kids, are installing linux as a dual boot as well. Professionally, big businesses are moving to linux--JP morgan, Fidelity, Schwab, bank of America, EA, AMD, bio tech companies etc. These are not small companies, how do I know this? Because I personally sold them either hardware, services or training. And they are looking for Linux professionals.

And finally, anyone knows if Linux is getting mainstream, you bet parents would want their kids to start learning it, just like they did when PC first came on the scene. That is just the way it is, parents want the best for their kids.


 

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I think you are wrong. Kids CAN use Linux. Sometimes they like it much more than they liked Windows. They can do everything but only in the scope of their user account. They are not limited in activity but they can't do anything destructive. And all this is free.

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Face it, my kids won't use linux and yours probably won't either. Most of us use linux as a hobby. We started using it back when Windows crashed every fifteen minutes. But Windows doesn't crash anymore and linux will never appeal to the average kid.

Uh, I'd like to know what planet you're from when you say, Windows doesn't crash anymore because I have found that not to be the case. I have Windows XP on two different machines, I've had occasional crashes. It's much more stable than previous releases, but doesn't crash anymore is a little ridiculous.

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Hah!

My kids are already using Linux. I started using Linux because it did things Windows did not do. Still does.

My 10 year old son, and my 5 year old daughter already use it. Gotta give my 7 month old a break though she does love playing with the keyboard.

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I've used GNU/Linux since I was 17. That was 7 years ago. Maybe your kids are stupid.

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Im someone s kid (22 at the time but I started linux when i was 15) and I chose to use Linux..
I do understand that I too come from "the time when windows crashed every 15m" but I know several kids that are 15 now (coincidence, 15 seems to be the magic nr<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:s) and messing around with linux (or trying to mess around<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)) & believe me, the kid im talking about is Average<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

Now the point you make here is that the only reason one would use linux is to mess around with it or because of the many bugs with Windows..
In my opinion these arent the only reasons one would change to Linux.. There s the "Windows costs fuckin much" argument, the "Windows is Virus, spyware,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. ridden" argument, there s the "My linux box is 100% legal, no copied soft" argument, there s the "Multitasking is notably better" argument (and before anyone comments on this.. I use a 433mhz box. I had both W2K and Linux & the difference is AMAZING - so I know what i'm talking about),<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..

So.. I dont agree with your comment<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Your argument is only partially right to me and there are a lot more and more important arguments to consider!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

Ofcourse, this is nothing more than my personal and very fallable opinion<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) (expressed in poorly written english on top<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D)

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I fail to see how my kid will use Windows, since we don't have it at home.

I also feel no incentive to purchase it, since desktop Linux has worked well for us for some years...

Even if Windows is better than Linux, why would I pay for something I can't have (I'm referring to the source), when there's a freely available alternative?

I mean, maybe someone or some company must use Windows (for reasons I cannot imagine), but why would I buy it, considering I'm happy with Linux?

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Finally, somebody who gets it. As a former, die-hard Amiga user, I salute you.

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Regarding the article <A HREF="http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5299" title="oreillynet.com">Why Windows still beats Linux</a oreillynet.com>, here is an interesting response by another blogger:

<A HREF="http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5368" title="oreillynet.com">http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5368</a oreillynet.com>

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Classic blogger waffling. Did you read the article? It did happen to say that bitching about Linux installations and whining about computer store availability of packages takes the comparison somewhat off track. Guess what the blogger is bitching and whining about.

Now if you'd said that the average user isn't going to switch because of driver availability for peripherals, that'd be a fair point, although I'd have to point out that the dubious/illegal anti-competitive climate Microsoft have created seems to be the cause of that.

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Yes, read both of them.

Well, to be fair you can get Linux pre-installed machines at WalMart and Carrefour. But the former article suggests in a strong wording, that "Linux won't make a dent into Microsoft's desktop market share", now that's something the later article literally addressed.

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I thought that they were pretty good links.

It's all about 'why' people are always finding any way they can to attack Linux/Open Source. It all seems to boil down to fear.

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To be perfectly honest I didn't play games very much back on Windows and I don't play much now. When I do play games it's either Nethack or I swivel my chair round to my consoles (not the root console, silly - my games consoles).

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those who says that Windoze wins due to great amount of software must get familiar with the table:<A HREF="http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml" title="linuxshop.ru">http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft<nobr>-<wbr></nobr> en/table.shtml</a linuxshop.ru>

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Lotus Notes Client. Only think holding me to Windows.

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There are two things which GNU/Linux still handles poorly: dependencies and automounting.

Dependencies: I know, apt-get plus broadband really solves the problem. But what Windows user could every overcome the *hell* that a Debian install is (yes, including the crappy Sarge GUI installer). With urpmi (i.e., Mandrake) the install is a breeze, but the urpmi config is not. Also, not everybody has a fast connection. Besides, when you get some app off the net dependencies issues still come back over and over again. Whereas 99% of win32 apps come with a simple install.exe or setup.exe and you never have to deal with some missing libraries. GNU/Linux dependecies are still 100%-geek oriented, not for your average user.

Automount: still horribly slow and still very fragile (pop a floppy out too soon or too often and you get an irreparable i/o error). Whereas with Windoze you can pop floppies in and out as much as you want and it runs great.

I am a dedicated GNU/Linux user, all my computers are 100% MS-free, but I have to say that these are the two main problems when trying to get a Windoze user to switch to GNU/Linux.

Fix the dependencies and automount problems and GNU/Linux will make a much more credible desktop.

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And 99% of windows apps install DLLs over existing ones, dump a bunch of crap into the registry, and push the system closer to total instability.

Also, you don't need broadband for apt to be your friend. The last time I installed windows for a user on dialup, I had to make them wait the better part of a weekend while their system downloaded service packs and critical updates.

Automount is a training issue.

And finally, one of the major points of the article was that OEM users never have to install anyway. Most windows users couldn't install windows, in my experience.

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And those 99% of applications are designed and coded wrong.

Do not blame MS for the laziness of 3rd party developers. And before you spout off about it being a Windows design flaw, I can overwrite libraries and files to my hearts content in Linux also, it's just the developers pay more attention.

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So if you're going to blame 3rd party developers for DLL hell, then blame 3rd party developers for their software's library dependencies.

I can link statically and provide install.sh or setup.sh to my heart's content, too. Is there a point here somewhere?

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Hi Tak_tak!

I am the OP. I just wanted to stress something here:

1) apt is *not* an option for Windoze users interesting in switching to GNU/Linux. I don't want to be off topic here, start a new thread, or troll, but frankly and honestly, until Debian installs like Mandrake (or at least like Suse or RH) it will not be an attractive option for newbies. Which is a real loss since Debian is, IMHO, otherwise the best distro GNU/Linux has to offer.

2) you are correct that win32 apps overwrite dlls adn dumb crap in the registry. The "beauty" of this (or, more aptly, the horror of it) is that Windoze users do not see that their apps do any damage. Installs work (mostly) with a simple "click on setup.exe" and if the system crashes, well that must be some virus right? Besides, they all "know" that all computer crash and need to be endlessly rebooted, reinstalled, etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

3) automount. yes, it is a training issue. But this is a totally geek argument (no offense intended) to "explain away" a definitely not-user-friendly "feature" (really *flaw*). No newbie wants to mount manually (much less so a CD ) and no newbie wants to wait to make sure that the damn floppy does not screw-up. We, the GNU/Linux community, *NEED* an automounter which is *invisible* and which, I loathe to write this, works at least as well as the one Windoze had since its very first versions. (Caramba! We have the best hackers and we still cannot get a usable automount to work?!?!?!?!)

Cheers!

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Hi OP.

1) I'm speaking within the context of the article. Ergo, the user doesn't have to deal with the actual installation. And Debian is my favorite distri as well.

2) and 3) make my point exactly. When users are trained that they have to reboot, format every 3 months, scan for spyware every 6 hours, etc, that's ok, but it's not ok to teach them click an "Unmount" menu item before taking out the floppy?

(IMO PC floppy drives should be like cdrom drives in that the drive has to "get permission" before it ejects the medium anyway. Like on my old U2.)

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Excellent point about "training Windows users", Tak.

People continually compare Windows usability to Linux usability while completely forgetting that the people referred to ONCE NEVER KNEW WINDOWS EITHER. These people were TRAINED (or learned on their own, same difference) on Windows. The problem is not Linux "usability" but the inability of people to transfer learned skills to a second OS - either because of lack of motivation or incentive or the inherent complexity of ANY OS.

I was out of computers from 1993 until 2001. The last machine I learned to use was a 33MHz 386 running DOS. I had to learn Windows AND Linux simultaneously (more or less, I do more work in Windows still than Linux simply because of time pressures) over the last three years and I can say with assurance that there is NO DIFFERENCE between the two when it comes to usability and learnability (and I'm not even using the latest distro - I'm still on Red Hat 7.3!)

Anybody who says Linux is harder to learn than Windows is talking out of his ass. There is NOTHING "intuitive" about Windows OR Linux. Both are learned skills and nothing more.

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Well... I don't like to be a zealot like I'm being now, but floppy drives shouldn't have an eject button, just like Macs had been for years. You eject via software and, if something goes wrong, use the straightened paperclip, just like the CD-ROM drives.

That would be good... =)

About the dependencies, i use Fink to install OSS on my Mac and it's very good. I use Debian here too and dpkg seems to work fine too.

My only dislike is the bad arrangement of the package list on KDE's Package Manager. It's confusing because there are too much packages shown. It should be split into more segmented categories, IMHO. I have not tried any other package manager. Advices are welcome.

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My only dislike is the bad arrangement of the package list on KDE's Package Manager. It's confusing because there are too much packages shown. It should be split into more segmented categories, IMHO. I have not tried any other package manager. Advices are welcome.

Try aptitude and/or synaptic, I like them much better than kpackage. Yeah, some categories are still too much crowded, but I can keep them at bay using the keyboard instead of the mouse.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-P

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I don't use "Unmount" menu options. Or mount for that matter.
I use autofs, and it just works. Have a look at the manpage.

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1) URPMI: Mandrake resolves dependancies like Debian now, and you can get all your rpms of their servers too, just like Debian

3) Supermount is stable now, and has been for a year, so your problem disapears.

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"But what Windows user could every overcome the *hell* that a Debian install is (yes, including the crappy Sarge GUI installer)."

Enter Kanotix.

Link will be up on NewsForge main page shortly.

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I shall very much look forward to the link.

One question: is Kanotix GPLed or does it have the same type of strange license mix as MEPIS?

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Kanotix is GPL.

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Windows installation/uninstallation is HIDEOUS compared to linux. Many different apps use their own install/uninstall methods, and most of them ignore you when it comes to the uninstall part.

As for dependancies and conflicts... that's much more common on windows. The difference is that you notice it on Linux (if you're NOT using apt-get or something similar properly) because it tells you about it. On windows, it won't tell you, it'll mess things up and crash later.

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take a look at Gentoo.
simply emerge yourapp and everything is done for you.
It's the easiest way to install something like mono/monodevelop
just emerge mono monodevelop
all depencies are taken care off.
want to install Mythtv? emerge mythtv, again all dependencies taken care of.

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Amen to the original. Linux weenies are far too busy coming up with excuses, and not doing enough to fix the problem.

DLL Hell was a big problem in Windows 3.x. It's rare in recent versions. I almost never see it, and I use Windows (98, 2000 and XP) more than Linux (though I use both, including both Mandrake and Debian-based MEPIS). Why is it more of a problem in Linux? Because of that damned Unix-worsipping "toolkit" philosophy in which applications are designed to expect a zillion other things (dependencies) to be provided externally. Windows developers are far more likely to either provide everything in the packaged setup.exe. (Who gives a fsck if there's a redundant library in the \Program Files\MyCompany\ThisApp directory? It's not like we've got 5 MB hard drives any more.) Linux distros usually abhor application-specific directories, preferring to create a dependency on libsnarglefratz-3.0.6-snot-beta3-ter which breaks when another application installs libsnarglefratz-3.0.7-snot-beta2-bis in its stead.

I'm sick of apt-get and urpmi failing, which often happens. I'm sick of pretending it's 1975 and Unix is k3w1 and you have to emulate the religious dictates of Kernighan's books. Let applications be distributed with static linking, big and fat. And (here's a novel word) independent.

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"I'm sick of apt-get and urpmi failing, which often happens."

Well I can't speak for URPMI, but I've never had apt-get fail. I even used it to upgrade from Fedora Core 1 to Fedora Core 2 (and plan to use it to upgrade to Fedora Core 3 when its released). I have 2 packages on my computer installed from source ATM, one is NDisWrapper, because my wifi card has no linux drivers, and the other is KQemu, which is a kommander application, meaning its a 1 file kommander script (so really it doesn't count, and I have only 1 program installed from source).

I haven't tried Apt-Get on other platforms, but on Fedora Core 1/2 it works great. Maybe you should stop turning off your box while its install software?

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a clueless computer user will be just as clueless on Windows as they would on a Linux desktop- i know because i seen it myself right here on my computer, those that are able to learn about computers but are a little lazy are too complacent to want to learn another platfrom so they stick with their windows, when the need to switch to another platfrom arises eventually the necessity to switch will occur and then the complacent windows user will switch (seen that too)...

as time goes by i am absolutly certain the Linux userbase will grow and Windows userbase will shrink...

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...a clueless computer user will be just as clueless on Windows as they would on a Linux desktop.

But nothing beats a clueless Mac user!

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I have used Linux for many years now but I still wouldn't replace my main work pc for a Linux box.

The reason is graphical display in Linux is still poor compared with that of Windows. For example I use Mozilla Firefox as my web browser on both Windows and Linux. On windows the web pages are nicely rendered and the fonts are clean and nice. On Linux this is not the case. The graphics appear ok but the fonts are really poor. Even after you've fiddled around recompiling the font server and downloading the Microsoft Web Fonts its still massively inferior to Windows.

Mac OS X sorted this problem why can't Linux?

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Are you insane?

I am on windows XP for work reasons, and I can say that font rendering is HORRIBLE compared to Linux. And this shows very painfully browsing: windows->terrible looking jagged fonts, linux->bistream vera smoothed fonts. Both with firefox, mind you.

I don't get it: I've heard this old debate over fonts looking better in windows... win does not even TRY to make them look good. And don't bring ClearType in: it only works on LCD screens, and very very badly even in that case.

As for OSX, they have a PATENTED rendering engine called Quartz. If someone else would do exactly the same they would be sued to death. And btw, there are projects to do something similar (berlin, afaik, is a PostScript rendering engine).

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Wow, I guess my vision sucks. Im reading this in firefox on XP and the fonts look fine to me.

perhaps you are a fonticianado or a fontophile (hey it works for audio, why not fonts).

Of cource, an mp3 at 128 sounds the same to me as one at 64 or 256 so maybe I'm just not that picky.

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He's probably lying, or he hasn't turned on antialiasing or ClearType. Make no mistake, font rendering in XP is great.

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The XP desktop has exactly 2 options for font rendering: Normal and ClearType. Normal is the yucky jagged rendering I was talking about before (the same that was on Windows 3.1 AFAIR, only with slightly better fonts). ClearType is a joke, especially if you DON'T have an LCD screen. The fonts get blurred with random colored pixels, and are barely readable.

Now pray tell me: how can I correct my settings? Please! I'm serious: I am forced to work on XP for now, so I'd enjoy some good fonts.

Counterexample: double click on a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.ttf font in windows and in GNOME, and look at the various growing sizes. WHERE is the antialiasing in windows?? It has close to NONE!

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Actually the XP desktop has three options for font antialiasing. There's None, which has been there since Windows 1.0, Normal, which is the same antialias that was in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... 98? 95? I don't know when it was introduced. Then there's ClearType. Three options.

You have to click the Advanced button under the Appearance tab of display properties to see the third option, but it's there in a dropdown.

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You MUST be joking if you think that Linux has better fonts then Windows. I cannot fathom why anyone would think that.

Windows looks great - Mac is even better. I've installed so many Linux distros, and browsing the web almost always looks horrible. I was even unhappy with one of the most user-friendly distros, Xandros. The only distro that looked decent was Munjoy.

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My fonts look great.

What distro are you using?

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Two things. First, make sure you are on a newer version of whatever distribution you are using. There have been huge improvements recently with font rendering, especially with anti-aliasing. As little as a year ago, most distributions were still using the single bit depth rendering of older X servers, and they looked like crap. That has radically improved.

Second, it very likely depends on the site. Many sites still specify Microsoft fonts in their style sheets. If you don't have those fonts, the browser (or X server) is going to try and make a guess, and it won't always guess right. I find that, if I go to a site that DOESN'T muck with my font selection (the way HTML was designed to work), then it looks fine. If they are tailored to a Microsoft display, then other displays aren't likely to look as good.

OK, so this is a third thing.... Try installing some of the MS Font packages. You usually have to hunt for them because they aren't installed by default. However, many Word documents and Web sites look radically different when you get these TrueType fonts.

Short answer - it's the fault of bad site design, not the client platform. Rendered fonts on new X servers look great now.

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You're right in that HTML was never designed for font meddling.
Which is what CSS is for. Still, people should only specify attributes
rather than specific font names when they have to use that sort of
stylesheet magic..

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Every distribution I've seen in the last few years has had anti-aliasing (and looks as good as OS X). Maybe you should upgrade that Redhat 6.2 install, eh?

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Funny you say that, because one of the first things I noticed when I switched from Windows to GNU/Linux a few years back was how much *better* the fonts were in all the applications, including the web browsers. You are obviously arriving at an incorrect conclusion (that graphical display on linux is poor compared to windows) based on your one bad experience. Do a bit of looking around on the tons of forums available for help for your unusual problem, or just look at some of the screenshots of some linux applications, and ask that question again - Is windows font rendering really better??

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No recompiles for me, something like 80,000 fonts on board, web pages etc look jers farn.

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I'll second that!! Galaxy and now Galaxy 2 by default look great to me. Maybe it's just my eyesight in my old age...jk.

The average user doesn't give a rats' ass about fonts!! All they want to do is point and click.

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I've had sub-pixel decimation (SPD) anti-aliasing for LCDs in X and within my web browser for a few years now, and it is quite beautiful. This is something I did to make computer use easier on my eyes. Amusingly, I hadn't seen Windows and Mac's attempts at the same technology until recently: they are laughably inferior. I don't know how people can stand them. They are arguably worse than the original aliased fonts. I think the main reason X wins out is that freetype2 has better auto-hinting and kerning.

Cheers,

Aaron

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make sure you get the Firefox that allows anti-alliased fonts(uses GTK+) I got a download recently(0.8, i think) that was compiled without the GTK libs and it looked aweful with small fonts. The latest firefoxes (0.9.x) are only relesed built against the GTK libs and look great. In most cases they look better than the windows version, and in the case or two that they didn't, either I was missing a specific font, or there was something that lived on a broken IE implementation of w3c specs.

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...at least not when looking at the freely available distros I have tried. I have used Red Hat for 4 years but got tired of the glitches. I have now tried Gentoo, Slackware, Debian, Knoppix and Crux. Either the installation failed (Crux) or there are even more glitches than before. E.g. I click on an icon to run a program and nothing happens (it fails silently, the thing I hate the most) or I get the message "Can't do X becuase libY is not found". The sound has never worked.

<P>
And in your list of apps, where are the multimedia apps? And what newbie would want to install the mplayer... ugh.

<P>
I know my way around the OS to a degree, I can install Gentoo, I can find scripts under<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc and hack them but I still get mad daily when trying to configure or install things. Windows is Windows but the desktop glitches are almost nonexistent on my XP-installation.

<P>
Listen: I an tired of learning new things. I want the stuff to work dammit. If you say I should try a commercial distro your are right, I will. You get what you pay for...

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You have had problems with Red Hat, Gentoo, Slackware, Debian, Knoppix and Crux? All of them? You must have some weird hardware then.

Install mplayer hard? Hmm...
1. Install Fedora.
2. Configure apt to the livna.org repositories following easy steps on web site (3 minutes, tops)
3. run "apt-get update"
4. run "apt-get install mplayer"
Done. And it works. Period. But I gues that is hard.

I don't know what your problem is but Fedora and Knoppix work very smoothly on my box.

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The problem is not that Linux doesn't work. It does.

The problem is that the end user is ignorant of most procedures and is in the dark.

You'd require him to learn his way through a zillion how-tos and a hundred books which always assume he knows something nobody ever tells. Some can do that.

The average joe, not necessarily stupid, would rather use a system which is better organized from the start, that facilitates his learning instead of presenting him with a perpetual challenge. That's his right.

The law of great numbers assures you that the easier the system becomes, the bigger the number of converts will be.

Why isn't it obvious that the discipline of design applies to Linux as well as anything else in this world? We need the help of an army of real interface designers and we don't even realize it: clear modularity, consistency, attention to metaphor... Why, oh why isn't that obvious to everybody?

 

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There are many "average joe" type people in my life. They all use Windows. They ALL ask for help to do anything with their computer. The one or two that once in a while install something on thier own are the exception. If they go for help for every little thing anyway, how is it the Linux is somehow more difficult? Windows obviously still isn't easy or trouble free enough for the "average joes" that I know.

Why is it that MS has a mostly consistent look and feel? Because they are a monopoly and control the entire environment. You can get consistency, etc. with Linux if you always use packages from your retail distro vendor that match the desktop you use (KDE, GNOME, whatever). If you go outside this "single source" environment you will get diversity in look and feel, just as you would if you COULD go outside the MS monopoly.

As a side note, I find the current cultural contradictions interesting. People talk about diversity and appreciating differences but when presented with something different, people reject it. All the houses in a given neighborhood must follow the same color and design scheme. Can't rock the boat by suggesting that your local public school do something easier and better suited to local needs. Over the past several years, nearly every family in our neighborhood traded their mini-vans for SUVs. Every program people use must look and feel like every other.

There are efficiencies gained with consistent design and attention to metaphor. But why does the design or metaphor that I use or create have to match everyone elses? If I like it, I should be able to create it, find it, use it and/or provide it to others, should I so desire.

Within the world of FS/OSS there is such wonderful and vast diversity. It is THE example of the creativity that the MS monopoly has squelched for these past several years. Embrace it a be free! Why must it be molded into one consistent shape that someone determined is "correct" when each creator and user can turn it into their own? Each business or person can define what how it looks and feels for their needs, not what MS or someone else thinks is best. Diversity means choice but many people don't want to choose, they want to be told what to use and how to use it. They get to remain a victim that way.

[/soapbox]

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My hardware is not weird. Actually the only potentially hardware related problem would be the soundcard but it works fine under Win98/XP and also when I run Knoppix from the CD. Knoppix from the harddrive (or any other distro) fails. Go figure...


All my other problems are software glitches. I thought Debian would be fine since they lag so far behind but no...


Your procedure to install mplayer hard? Yes, at least compared to "download and click on setup". My take on installation is this: Anything that doesn't require AI should (if I so choose) be done automatically.


But I wasn't clear in my rant for which I apologize: I recently stumbled upon this via Mozilla where I was informed that a plugin for some videoformat was available. Great, I follow the link and comes to what seems to be a wrapper plugin (can't remember the name) which is used to call apps, among them mplayer. Following another link I come to

<A HREF="http://www.mplayerhq.hu/homepage/design7/dload.html" title="mplayerhq.hu">http://www.mplayerhq.hu/homepage/design7/dload.ht<nobr>m<wbr></nobr> l</a mplayerhq.hu>

OK, I see source, CVS, rpms. I sure could give it a shot but imagine a newbie in this situation... Is it the fault of the plugin supplier? No, I'm sure they did the best they could given the situation at hand.


More generally: "But it works for me..." or "It is really easy, you just..." is not good enough. I am neither stupid nor lazy. I have spent my fair share of hours hunting down posts on obscure mailing lists to get things to work but I have better things to do. One (or even 90) satisfied users out of 100 doesn't negate the others.


The very fact that I, who is in a much better position than the vast majority of potential users, pull my hair is proof enough. OK, Windows is worse in other respects but I think "Linux is ready for the desktop" should be replaced by "We don't suck any more than Windows, just in a different way".

The costumer is always right, or more precisely "The non-lazy user is always right".

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for the long paragraph. The space disappeared. My first post with

didn't work either. Maybe I am stupid<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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Imagine this test:
- Take two computer systems with the same hardware.
- Have "experts" install a current, standard Linux distro (like Fedora or SuSE) on one and Windows XP on the other such that everything works right. CDs burn. Printer works. Software installed and configured. etc.
- Have one "average user" for each computer do what they want with the system for a full year.
- During that year, install nothing new, hardware or software, on either one except for needed security updates.

After that year, which computer will have had fewer non-hardware problems? Which computer will now be more stable? Which user will be happiest with their system?

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You are right, multi-media apps.
XMMS, Juk, Audacity, NoAtun, Kaffeine, Xine, Realplayer, and everything else I could find to play with it. I don't have a DVD player, but have enabled DVD play on several of the machines I OEMed for people.

As for learning, that is my whole point in the article. I have OEMed Linux 32 times for family/friends so that they don't have to learn anything. The know how to use a mouse, they can use all the apps that I pre-install and pre-test, like an OEM. If someone handed you a system with Gentoo fully installed, configured with every mainstream app, fully configured, then, how hard is Linux. I know the install is NOT ready for the average user, (but neither is Windows), but the desktop/usability, and software is.

Kevin

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The one point the original artical made was that Windrose is normally preinstalled by an OEM.

Upfront I am a techie, *nix is my living so installation is not a hardship. This makes me the OEM for my house hold. Like any good SsAdmin, I (God) decide which applications my users get to run. Just like a comercial Windoze OEM I set up my bundle and for the users it's take it or<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. take it.

Now when we see Linux pre-installled as common option we will also see the OEM bundle being tightly knitted to their prduct. This is not the current state of affairs so it is true most 'journalistic/media' comparisons are (beside the vested intrest) comparing apples and oranges.

On a professional level I find Micro$oft's OS/Appllication co-mingling very shoddy. I can accept that it was born out of expanding a single user stand alone desktop to be an enterprise system but it is still fundimentally a single user architecture. This is both its strenght and it weakness.

Linux on the other hand started life as a clone of Unix and has always been multi-user. This is actually a weakness for a single use desktop. However you can bundle it as a secure desktop, it jsut means the user has to have two hats.

As the Linux Standard Base becomes more all prevailing installation will become easier for those adding items not included in their distrobution. Until then sometimes it is a breeze, some times you do need to be a techie. Again with an OEM setup you'll be directed to a compatible upgrade/download site so this pain would be minimised.

Well taht's my 2 ( substitute your currency diminitive here<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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Gosh, that was hard.

I have about fifty multimedia apps of various kinds, including video editing, and Blender (good for making videos from numbers, no camera involved<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-). All $0, all with source.

As for XP, one of my favourite war stories is a friend whose XP laptop spontaneously decided after a reboot one day that the loopback interface needed an address from DHCP instead of the usual fixed address of 127.0.0.1.

Try getting that fixed without a mountain of registry mining. (-:

I managed it eventually by setting the interface to a fixed address of 127.0.0.2 (not<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.1, the interface wouldn't let me). Intuitive, isn't it. </sarcasm> (-:

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I'm running Mandrake 10.0, a list of the apps available "natively" (ie, without doing anything fancy by way of URPMI configuration, and without any commercial CDs) is <A HREF="http://cyberknights.com.au/mdk10rpms/" title="cyberknights.com.au">here</a cyberknights.com.au>.

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Listen: I an tired of learning new things.

Poor guy. You are living in the wrong century, my friend.

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a few of the bigger distros get rolling and developers start to work on them, Like Novell SUSE and JDS. I believe these distros will push desktop usability forward because they are cattering to the enterprise market who want less administration to lower costs.

I find if I get an installation working on a box flawlessly, it really is better than WindowsXP and in many ways better than Longhorn (I have a pretty recent beta). More robust and way better eyecandy (BTW: check out PCLinuxOS, it is by far the best looking default distro that I have found so far. Fonts, themes and icons all look awesome.)

But I also find that WindowsXP takes less messing around with to get working right, and works right more often than not first time around. Linux is a dice roll. Some distros install easily on one box but are a nightmare on others. I have Feather 5.5 and it runs on only one box in nine that I have, but I take it over to my neighbors house and it boots his P66 laptop with 24meg that no other livecd has been able to boot before let alone install then run, go figure.

#

Try Pogo Linux. Try Penguin Linux. Try HP.

Geez, Dell is not the whole universe of computer hardware sales.

There are now plenty of good, viable sellers of hardware with Linux pre-installed.

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Yep - if you want a system that has all the engineering and system integration done for you - go with these preconfigured systems.

It is a wonder more OEMs aren't doing this with Linux today...oh yeah - I forgot - they have Microsoft leaning on them with their OEM contracts and wholesale pricing. Of course, when people see they can do the same thing using a Linux box, it'll all be over but the crying (and the 10 years of litigation...)

#

Windows comes pre-installed on it. You don't have to go through the process that Linux requires.



No? There are still some people who insist on doing a complete reinstall of Windows everytime they have a problem. There's also a large population of people who do a complete reinstall every year because "it's good to do". Both were told by some friend who is "good with computers" that they should do it. Hint: anyone tells you you ever need to reinstall Windows isn't "good with computers", they're just as clueless as you.



The articles cited are also very poor comparisons. In the first one "Windows vs Linux - Which is easier to install?", Linux wins because the wife failed in four tasks installing Windows vs. three tasks installing Linux. A close win, it hardly "kicked living ass". The only reason it won was because Windows failed to reach the Internet, something I find hard to imagine seeing as they were on a network. For every install of Windows I've done on a network, I've chosen "I'm on a network" for the first option of the ICW, and then pretty much next, next, next. The author probably has some weird setup, such as a proxy preventing access. I'd need more info to find it believable.



The other article is even less credible: Windows failed to connect to the network, but Linux did. A slight clue can be had by reading the line: "When I bought the PCMCIA card for the Vaio, I made sure it was supported on Linux before I purchased it." Ah, so you cheated.



Myth #2: Lack of Applications



Granted, Windows applications have to be purchased, and Linux apps come on the CD. Personally, I would change it to "Lack of QUALITY Applications". The Open Source community has done a good job of producing reasonable facsimiles of commercial applications, and in some cases they are better, but not always. Open Office and The Gimp are regularly held up as the shining examples of what's available on Linux. Sorry, they don't really compare to Office and Photoshop (or even Paint Shop Pro). This is a matter of personal taste, granted, but in my case I solved the solution by going Mac. I get to use pretty much the same amount of quality commercial software AND when Open Source has a better option, I can use that, too.



And, let's keep in mind that support is a huge factor when choosing software, especially for the clueless end-user. With purchased software, there is typically a phone number the person can call for help, or at least an e-mail. With an overwhelmingly large amount of Open Source, the support amounts to "If you can't figure out how to use this software, you shouldn't be using Linux anyway". What a wonderful incentive! Either that, or you get a mailing list where people are more concerned with how you post to it, than providing answers. Either that, or you get the generic "Did you read the documentation and FAQ and go through this list before asking that?" A fair question, but it assumes that the documentation is readable and usable. Also, folks, if you're going to have a mailing list archive, make it SEARCHABLE! Having to go and click on every month in a list's history to find my answer just makes me go to elsewhere.



Myth #3: It's hard to install software



How quickly this one, the most important, was glossed over! It IS hard to install software on Linux. Which method is used? Portage? RPM? Apt-get? Source? How do I resolve dependancies that aren't there? What if I want to install a piece of software, but can't find an RPM for a dependancy? I have to install from source, and RPM STILL doesn't know it's installed. "Install and remove software" also isn't always an option, it depends on your distro. How convenient is that?



I wanna see a real test. There are numerous people who have posted that their wives and kids are using Linux, and find it easy. Great. Don't help them for a year with ANYTHING. They have to do it all. They have to fix every problem themselves, they have to install every piece of software, they have to update it themselves. THEN, tell me how much better they like Linux when they don't have a Linux expert personally available to help them.



The most likely outcome is you'll be divorced and your wife will have full custody of the kids due to cruel and inhuman treatment.



Yeah, I know, I'm a troll. Go ahead, say it, I don't care. The fact is, I just think these "preaching to the choir"-type articles, while generally baseless, also serve no point. You have Linux people telling Linux people how easy/powerful/secure/etc Linux is compared to everyone else. I'll let you in on a clue: if a person's reading this site, it's a pretty good bet they're already using Linux, so all you're doing is fanning a flame in a closed room. No one else is going to hear you.

#

Point one, excellent point, and I also pointed out that I could find any number where XP won/Linux won, my whole point is, you can't try to install Linux, fail, then say Linux is not ready for the desktop. Apples to apples, if XP and Linux are installed on mutually compatible hardware, call is a tie, +/- 20%. No argument here.

Lack of applications, quality, etc. An excellent point, and one that I want the pundits to focus on when they compare a Linux desktop to Windows desktop. AFTER installed and configured NOT by the end user, how do they compare. I agree, some applications don't measure up to commercial counterparts, however, I would put the likes of K3B, Audacity, Mozilla, Gnomemeeting, KDE, Evolution, and Korganizer, xmms, Juk, Mplayer, Xine, against any commercial app, head to head for usability, function and 'snazzy looking'. But you get the idea, lets compare Linux desktop with Other desktops.

Myth 3: The article wasn't directly about this, but I will take a stab at it. For all 32 people I OEM and support (very little support, a drastic improvement against Windows btw), I installed a full environement, and have yet to download the CORRECT Mandrake or Suse RPM that didn't just install in the 5-15 seconds it takes to unpack it. I never install a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.tgz or compile need app for someone I support (I will for my machine, but not anyone elses), never needed to, and won't do it. I have been doing this for a while, and know how to OEM (read install most developer libraries, etc) so that 'dependancy hell' simply doesn't exist for my little world.

Honestly, I don't remember the last time anyone has asked me for an app or how to do xyz where there wasn't already installed, an app to do it.

Kevin

#

you can't try to install Linux, fail, then say Linux is not ready for the desktop.



To which I would make the point, if it can't be installed on the desktop, how does one use it on the desktop?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)



I would put the likes of K3B, Audacity, Mozilla



For quite a few of those on the list, I would agree. I mentioned that in my comment, that there are open source solutions that are better than commercial applications. For example, I would prefer Ethereal to pretty much any sniffer on the market and mPlayer is the default media player on my Mac. I just haven't gotten around to doing it on my Windows boxen for various reasons. One I will totally disagree with is Mozilla and its off-shoots, particularly Firebird. There are some nice features of both, but I've found performance and stability to be two major detractors for both, that's on all platforms I use (Windows, Linux and OSX). Using <A HREF="http://www.avantbrowser.com/" title="avantbrowser.com">AvantBrowser</a avantbrowser.com>, an open-source frontend to IE that provides all the extras (tabbed browsing, popup blocking, etc) that those do is for me the way to go.



CORRECT Mandrake or Suse RPM that didn't just install in the 5-15 seconds



Well, it's been a while since I've used a distro that used RPM, so perhaps the biggest issues with it have been fixed. For my Linux boxen I either use Gentoo or a Linux From Scratch install. My point, however, was that hopefully the enduser will be smart enough to figure out which he has installed, or how to find RPMs when one isn't provided by the maintainer, or if he needs to find a "community-generated" on, will it be for the right type of machine or distro?

#

To which I would make the point, if it can't be installed on the desktop, how does one use it on the desktop?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

The same way one does when a Windows install fails.

#

And, let's keep in mind that support is a huge factor when choosing software, especially for the clueless end-user.

Just a data point. My brother in law, Linux convert #20. Purchased Synamtics virus checker. Even with Macafee installed, got infected. Wanted $30 online to be allowed to update their subscription. He decided to purchase Symantic since, well, Macaffee didn't stop the infection. Install, no errors, won't run. Re-install, no errors won't run. Clicking run, anything, nothing works. Emailed support, they referred him to the install page. He re-installed, nothing. Emailed support again, they referred him to the troublshooting page. See, he could not call because it is $29.95 per incident.
http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/support_options.<nobr>h<wbr></nobr> tml
There is no phone number install support free phone number. This was $1 more than the product cost. He decided to NOT throw good money after bad, called me, and I had him online with Suse 9.0 the next weekend.

Kevin

#

Actually, I haven't had to give my wife any computer help for over a year.

#

For every install of Windows I've done on a network, I've chosen "I'm on a network" for the first option of the ICW, and then pretty much next, next, next. The author probably has some weird setup, such as a proxy preventing access. I'd need more info to find it believable.

It is called having a static IP instead of DHCP, try it sometime your clicking next will not work.

#

It is called having a static IP instead of DHCP, try it sometime your clicking next will not work



Ah, then I was right, he has a weird setup. I haven't used static IPs for non-servers in many a year, nor do most people. Regardless of that, there should have been no trouble setting it up as the information requested, and the manner in which it requested, is essentially the same between Linux and Windows setups. It asks for IP, mask and gateway. The only difference might be in DNS settings. It's been so long since I've used static, so I don't remember if Windows puts that on the same dialog, or if you have to click a button to enter it. I know with the graphically installed Linuxes, it usually has DNS info on the same dialog.

#

I think it's a lot more trouble to set up a DHCP server for a home network than to assign the 2 or 3 computers an ip address (unless you have one of those home cable/DSL routers with it built in).

Of course, you can learn more by doing the DHCP thing, you can add machines more easily later, and it's necessary if you want to play with remote booting (does Windows support this? Seriously asking here, not trolling...)

#

Actually, if I remember correctly, new Windows installations (XP and I believe 2000 as well) don't give you any obvious opportunity on install to do anything other than DHCP. You just have to know after the installation to right click on "My Network Places" and choose "Properties;" then right click on "Local Area Connection" and choose "Properties;" then scroll down to select "Internet Protocol" and hit the "Properties" button (or double click on "Internet Protocol"); and there enter your information. That's not difficult at all for someone who knows what they're doing, but it wouldn't be obvious to a network newbie.

He also could have had a network card that wasn't automatically recognized by Windows 2000.

#

"I wanna see a real test. There are numerous people who have posted that their wives and kids are using Linux, and find it easy. Great. Don't help them for a year with ANYTHING. They have to do it all. They have to fix every problem themselves, they have to install every piece of software, they have to update it themselves. THEN, tell me how much better they like Linux when they don't have a Linux expert personally available to help them."

I wanna see this test too. Only, use two families, one with Linux and one with Windows. I'd bet lunch that the Windows family will feel the lack of "expert" support as keenly as the Linux family. I get far more request for help on a computer from Windows users than any requests from my wife and kids running Linux.

#

Linux rocks, it just works.

My eight-year old just installed UT 2004 Linux version on Suse with no help from me whatsoever. My wife has not had a Linux issue come up for three years. And I'm no computer geek, and neither is she or my kids. Our Linux installs started with boxed Redhat and moved to boxed Suse. The installations are easier than Windows installations ever are or were, there is more software available, and there are simply no problems with the desktops, none.

The test ended years ago. The whole "Linux is not ready for the desktop" is so 1990s. It's true, I don't know many people in my suburban middle-aged couples with kids neighborhood who have completely switched to Linux -- they keep a dual boot partition of Windows around for the games for their kids -- but the majority of them are now booting Linux just as much if not more than Windows. Linux desktop use is exploding. Don't let your kids in school get left behind because they're not familiar with the Linux skills needed for the next generation of computing.

Windows is good software - for games. As far as toy, obsolete operating systems go, it's not a bad one to keep around and play with once in a while. Even grownups like to play computer games occasionally. Windows is really good for that.

#

Before reading I must warn every body that I left Canada when I was 11 and that was 20 years ago, so if this looks like it was written by someone that didn't even finish high-school don't be surprised (writting in Portuguese probably wouldn't be that much better... but what the heck)

Compare apples to apples please. If you want to compare stuff you can download for free from sourceforge with "comercial software" you can BUY you're not comparing apples to apples, are you? If you are willing to purchase software, you can find on the net "comercial software" for linux, from office to Cad applications(if you don't like openoffice.org then maybe textmaker and planmaker could be more your cup of tea.. but you have to pay for it). In general to install "comercial software" for linux it's just unpack file, run apllication and delete folder to uninstall. Does windows have more comercial applications, and easier to get... yes that is very very true (BETTER applications now that depends alot on what your looking for, what might be better for you might not be for me)... But would you BUY ms office, photoshop, and acrobat writer when right after installing windows you also got openoffice.org, gimp and creating pdfs? I don't think most people would... only those that really really need a specific feature...

As for a hard time gamer without a gamesconsole (playstation, Xbox, gamebox... whatever) windows is still a must (but even here things are changing)

As for support well, here you'll find that comercial software isn't always better, if you find a bug in the software you bought and decided to get it fixed/ask for support, you wouldn't be the first person to receive the anwser "we fixed that in the new version please upgrade (give us more money to fix a mistake we did)..." in contrast to an open source project where you report the bug and 2 days after that there's a nightly build with that bug fixed... (there's good and bad support everwhere it's not something specific to opensource projects or comercial software or windows or linux)

As for your "real test" EVER person I know with a windows install has come crying for help to me (I'm a computer technician)... A lot of people did turn to Linux because they where fed up with the problems that windows gave them. Is XP better than 95/98/Me in general yes, but it still gets hit by virus and sercuity flaws (even a responsable user with anti-virus and firewall can get hit by a new virus/sercuity flaws/exploits) and "strange things"/hick ups still happen. Is Linux totatly imune to such things, of course not... does it seem much better in this area, from experience I must say yes...

Is Linux ready for the desktop? Hmmm... I must say it is MY desktop... for a gamer not yet...

Windows main reason for being a desktop is "it's what everyone uses" and not exactly because it's better or easier to use...

What operating system should a person use for his Desktop? The one he's comfortable with and I must say that more and more people are starting to be comfortable with Linux...

Is Linux hard to install? On hardware it doesn't support yes it is... what else would you expect? (try installing windows XP on a 386) On hardware it does support... it's very very very easy to install (especial with the new distros).

Is there alot of software? yes, there is and if your home user (email, surf the net, writes a letter or document, fools around with some pictures...) after installing a new/recent distro you probably won't need to install anything else...

Installing or removing programs, still alot of stuff that needs "tar -xvzf , cd ,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>./configure, make, make install"

but comercial software (and more non-comercial are also starting to be like this) is just unpack and (usualy you have to type I Agree or click a button saying yes/next/OK, chose a directory for where it goes...) after that you run it... now that isn't very hard, is it?

#

No? There are still some people who insist on doing a complete reinstall of Windows everytime they have a problem. There's also a large population of people who do a complete reinstall every year because "it's good to do". Both were told by some friend who is "good with computers" that they should do it. Hint: anyone tells you you ever need to reinstall Windows isn't "good with computers", they're just as clueless as you.

Most of these people who reinstall Windows (and all those that do while not knowing much of anything about computers) don't do it directly from an operating system disk; they do it from the OEM disk that came with their computer so that it takes care of all their hardware and a lot of their software automatically. This does not really show anything.

Incidentally, most of these people who heard that it was good to reinstall Windows every year heard it while Windows 95 or 98 was what everyone had. It was very close to true at that time, and Microsoft themselves recommended reinstalling regularly (every six months, if I remember correctly) If you were very careful about not installing much that you didn't need and never uninstalling anything, you could get away with it quite a bit longer (perhaps two, occasionally three years), although you would probably still notice a slowly creeping performance degradation, and the performance and stability still reached intolerable levels eventually (assuming you did not find Windows 98's stability intolerable to begin with<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)).

Now with Windows NT, 2000, and XP this is not nearly as true. Depending on what you do with your computer, you can get away with usually between two and five years, judging by what I've seen (long enough for most to never need to do it since they will be getting a new computer by then). There is still some validity to it, however, since a reinstall can often be easier, less time consuming, and more effective than trying to clean out the nightmare that is the Windows Registry, and is very much more possible for someone who doesn't know that much about computers.

The still necessary reinstallation in Windows 2000 is much more obvious in servers which can really start to act flaky after a couple of years, with their stability going from poor (from a server standpoint) to horrendous (going from one reboot every one to three months to one every week or so). This is especially true since servers have to be more stable and tend to be used for longer than two or three years.

#

I agree. I want to see a real test. Do not help a Linux "clueless user"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and do not help a Windows user for a year. I mean, do that from the beginning (meaning from the computer recently installed<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... that is no antivirus software in Windows and give him/her only the Windows CDs and to the other person the, for example, SuSE CDs).

In one year (assuming both are normal users) the Windows user would not be able to do a single thing. The computer would have Blaster and two or three (at least) other viruses installed. It would also be loaded with spyware.
Maybe the Linux user is not able to see Quicktime movies coded with the latest codec<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but at least the computer will work.

#

Look people: If you haven't used
Linux in a while I have some simple advice:
Try it. Just try it. Stop being in pain.
Stop having to virus scan your machine
everytime you boot up. Stop having to
have firewalls on top of firewalls.
Stop having to scan to your e-mail messages
before reading them. Stop having to watch
which websites you view because your machine
could get so easily infected. Just....
stop the pain. There's a better way to
live.

#

Try using modern hardware such as soundcards or ATI videocards.
Sure, it's the vendors fault, but the fact remains that it sucks (which in the end is all that matters).

#

All the "modern hardware" installs I have done recently (25+) have had NO issues with sound cards.

ATI video cards are a problem because ATI will not release hardware specs and their closed drivers stink. That is NOT the fault of Linux, the fault rests with ATI. So, I don't buy or recommend ATI video.

#

I tried last week (knoppix & suse).
It's a pain! Network cards not being detected, video card problems, lot's of installation aborts installing suse from ftp, it took days to get it running at all.

And I don't know what kind of windows you lastly been using, but I never had any of the trouble's you had. Maybe you should try windows sometime again - friend of mine who had Linux running for years tried XP last year and purged Linux from HDD after a few weeks since XP was way easier to use, had better programs, better support - one can put time into working with the apps again and need not waste time just to get the OS working with the last installed/updated app.

I think everyone should use what they like best.
And I think everyone is entitled to use whatever he wants, without being told how stupid he is using *that*!

#

friend of mine who had Linux running for years tried XP last year and purged Linux from HDD after a few weeks since XP was way easier to use, had better programs, better support

I somehow doubt that anybody running Linux for years would switch to XP saying that it was way easier to use. If he's used Linux for years he must be pretty competent, and probably likes the 'tech/Linux-guru' status. And if he's so concerned about ease-of-use, how come he switched from the (very basic) Windows of years-ago, to the (far more complex) Linux of years-ago in the first place?

I doubt that your friend had never seen or used XP until last year.

Quite frankly, Windows XP is more complicated than Windows 95/98. Networking has seen plently of techies scratching their heads, I know, I've had to help them.

When I first tried XP, after being a Mandrake user since 2001 or so, I found it far more complicated to use than the Win95/98 that I had used previously (e.g. networking for example). Obviously it didn't hinder me much, but I couldn't just dive into it like I could with Win9x.

Anyway, I can't see somebody having used Linux for years suddenly purging it completely from his hard drive.

If you're telling the truth, obviously the guy is a weirdo, an idiot, or somebody who you've brainwashed by some devilish work.

Let me tell you about my Grandpa:

He had been using Windows for years, and after giving him a Mandrake CD and telling him to "get on with it", he had it up and running. He started out with a dual-boot but decided to scrap Windows completely. He's never been happier.

Actually, that's a lie; however, it was more believable than you saying that an avid Linux user has switched to XP because it's easier to use!

Ha!

Damn Microsoft zealots!

#

Are you sure that viruses exist only for Microsoft. You need to know one thing that because MS Windows is the widely used OS in this world and the virus creators want to make maximum destruction, and so they attack only windows. But I can say it strongly that if Linux is the widely used OS then even it will be having Virus attacks, and also if that is the case, then there will be nobody to solve that problem, Heil Microsoft atleast it is solving problems from time to time. And we(Novice computer users) are pretty sure that Linux can never solve Virus problems as they come up. Even if it solves, by the time it solves, all the destruction that is to occur will complete. AND WE ARE HAPPY ON OUR WINDOWS XP WHICH NEVER CRASHES AND SUPPORTS EVERY HARDWARE ON THIS WORLD (atleast better than Linux, which sucks)

#

I really recently bought a Dell laptop that came with Windows XP. I bought the laptop to use with Linux, so I wiped the Windows install and installed SuSE. That took a little while, because I need a rather full quiver of development packages. Then I thought, well, I've got heaps of hard disk space, let's install Windows, too. Have a look at where it's at, compared to KDE and OSX.

I couldn't get it to install. With the manufacturer's CD. A black screen -- nothing more. A month later I had to send the laptop back to Dell because the keyboard was broken, and it came back with a new CPU, new fans, new keyboard and a new video card, and suddenly I could install Windows. It took a little while, because I had to load four or five different cd's with drivers Dell had thoughtfully bundled, otherwise I'd had to download those drivers separately. And then... I had precisely nothing. An OS, no more, no less.

Oh, and my kids all do use KDE at home. Their school has Windows pc's, but not once have they asked for me to put Windows on their laptops.

Boudewijn

#

boy i just wish I could afford to buy my kids both their own laptop - must be rough.

#

Windows is designed so you have to install it first in a dual boot system. This is a failure of Windows, and has nothing to do with Linux. It has something to do with Windows messing with the Master Boot Record or not following standards or something. If you have to dual boot, just install Windows first, and THEN install Linux.

#

NOTE: Games are the exception. Linux is Windows' poor cousin when it comes to games.

I consider this another misconception, many new games such as Unreal Tournament 2004 and Doom III have native Linux versions that work great and when compared they run better under Linux than under Windows on the same machine. Even games with no native Linux support can run be run effectively using WINE or WINEX.

#

I haven't seen a Doom III version for Linux yet. I have seen some predictions for it this weekend. Do you know something I don't? Please let me know anyone, denisesballs@thecybersource.com

#

Ok, I got fed up with M$ the other day and finally switched everything over to Linux. The one thing that stopped me from switching prior to this was games... and I had ever so recently stopped playing video games and decided there was nothing left stopping me.

I had a copy of redhat 9.0 lying around and gave it a go. Piece of cake install. My problem though wasn't the install; it was getting used to the new file structure and layout. I've used UNIX systems before but have been 'brainwashed by the GUI' so I can't remember how to do much anymore. But once I spent about 2 or 3 hours playing around, I could remember where everything was. Plus, anytime I encountered a problem, online support was AMAZING!! I could find my answers almost instantly (probably because Redhat 9.0 is so old).

The only people I believe should not convert yet are those who need their Windows machines to play games, do loads of multimedia and mom's/cl-user (this category includes anyone over 40 who cannot set their VCR and those who constantly download cutesy animated icons for their mouse).

I haven't gotten back onto Windows in about a week and the only time I will need to now is to transfer more files over.

#

Software Installation *is* insanely hard. The problems are numerous, and most of them are simply not solvable without major revamping throughout huge portions of the major Open Source packages.

Problem One: Dependencies. Most apps assume the user has all necessary dependencies or can easily get them. Not all distributions have these dependencies already packaged. Even when they do, how does the user get them? I've yet to see a single distribution that can take an RPM I grabbed from a web site manually and install its dependencies without me having to open up a terminal and manually apt-get/yum/urpmi them in.

Problem Two: Versioning. Most Free Software hackers are lazy bums and don't version their software properly. You end up with Application A needing Library Foo V1, and Application B needing Library Foo V2, but you can't install both versions at once without using install prefix tricks. Which means you are going to have to manually compile and install both the library and the application.

Problem Three: Glibc and GCC. These are two of the worst managed pieces of Free Software around, and they are involed with pretty much every single library and application you ever install! Glibc changes ABIs often. They utilize tricks to keep things backwards compatible, but they make it impossible to compile an app on a machine with a newer version of glibc and running it on a machine with an older version. At least not without manually hacking up the binary afterwards. GCC simply compiles in totally different ABIs. There is no provision anywhere in the GNU/Linux system for dealing with these ABI breaks; with normal library ABI changes, developers can at least decide to change the soversion if they're not lazy. With glibc, you must use special tools to make your binaries backwards compatible with older system, and with GCC, you're just plain fucked.

Problem Four: No Policy. Every distribution names and versions their packages differently. You pretty much have to repackage your app not only for each architecture, and not only for each distribution that runs on each architecture, but each version of each distribution that runs on each architecture you support.

The solutions aren't going to happen any time soon. On the masic basic levels, Free Software developers have to start actually making their software installable. This especially goes to library developers: *always* properly version your libraries based on ABI. If two versions of your library have incompatible ABIs, make absolutely sure they have different sonames. This also goes for options!! Options should *NEVER* be compile time, always run time; if you do make them compile time, make sure that multiple copies of your library with different options can be installed simultaneously - that means the libraries will need different names.

On a higher level, packagers need to get their act together. If upstream goes through the trouble of making different versions of their software co-installable, make sure the packages of their software you make can handle that! Nothing's nearly as stupid as having two versions of a library package with all file names different and non-conflicting, yet neither can be installed simultaneously because they gave both packages the same name/id. Packagers need a policy, a cross-distro policy, that guarantees that a third party package will work on every comformant distro.

At the highest level, then, the user-oriented tools need the final bit of polish. If I go to some-software.com and click on the icon/link for "Install FooWeb", not only should the software installer pop up (which is does on distros like Fedora), but it should look damn well pretty and friendly (which is *doesn't* on Fedora), and it had better be able to handle dependencies without me needing to do it manually. If FooWeb needs libfoo4, the tool should auto-install that from the distro repository. The FooWeb package should also be able to add a "temporary" repository hosted on some-software.com, as the vendor may have broken FooWeb up into several packages, all of which the tool needs to be able to find.

Then there's also some periphial things, like the menu system. FreeDesktop.org has a spec, but it's still changing. Nail the sucker down and go on. You can't currently ship a third-party app and have anything even close to a guarantee that you'll be able to properly make a menu entry.

For those looking for a partial solution that compromises by hacking around a lot of the broken crap Free Software developers and packagers force users to deal with, see <A HREF="http://www.autopackage.org/" title="autopackage.org">AutoPackage</a autopackage.org>. It's not an ideal long-term solution, but it does make an attempt at working with what we're stuck with today.

#

I have faced these types of problems with Linux but not in the last two years or so.

Fedora has really done it right. You install it. Easily configure apt or yum to point at the official repositories and you can rest assured that all installs, dependencies, etc. will be taken care of. It think Debian is just as good.

I just don't see all the problems you are complaining about if you stick to the beaten path of your chosen distro's repositories.

#

Putting aside all your childish, petty little insults, how is opening a software manager (Drake has a tool, RH has a tool,Debian has a tool, Suse has one, etc etc). The problems you mentioned haven't existed for YEARS in any major distro - and that's the main advantage to using a distro - the developers handle that so the end users can actually get around to using their machines. Much, much less difficult than on Microsoft Windows:

Find and download $PROGRAM to install
Damn, it's in "compressed" format
Go find $DECOMPRESSOR and download
Scan $DECOMPRESSOR for viruses
Install $DECOMPRESSOR
Crap, I'm not admin
Log in as admin
Install $DECOMPRESSOR
Reboot
Log in
Scan $PROGRAM for viruses
Decompress $PROGRAM
Doubleclick exe/msi installer
Crap, I'm not admin
Log in as admin
Doubleclick exe/msi installer
Click "Next" to continue
Accept 27 page EULA
Click "Next" to continue
Confirm "install type", full/minimal/custom
Click "Next" to continue
Confirm/alter install path
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want a program group created? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Watch progress bar...
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to read the README.txt now? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to create a desktop shortcut? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to run the internet updater? y/n
If Y, click "Next" to continue to repeat previous instructions, if N, then click "Next" to continue
$PROGRAM has been installed to $PATHBLAHBLAH, please register, would you like to do so now? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Installation complete, Click "Exit" to finish
You must reboot for changes to take effect, do you want to reboot now? Reboot/Cancel
Reboot
Log in
Use $PROGRAM

No thanks, I'll take:
click Menu
Synaptic
Enter root pass
Find $PROGRAM
Install
Use $PROGRAM
any day.

#

but they make it impossible to compile an app on a machine with a newer version of glibc and running it on a machine with an older version.

You mean, something like Internet Explorer 6 runs on Windows 98, but won't on Windows 95? Or Norton Antivirus 2004 needs Windows 98 or newer to install? Or DirectX 8.1+, or<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.....



That is the single stupidest argument I have ever heard. Bar none.

#

ok, sure

Linux is easy to install now, but so is windows 3.1

Linux doesn't crash as much as windows (except for win2000/2003 server which I've had running for 3+ years now with automatic updating and rarely needs rebooting, usually for patches) but neither does windows 3.1

linux runs faster that most windows, but then windows 3.1 will destroy any installation of linux for speed

linux comes with an opposite number to net meeting, outlook express, internet explorer, MSN Messenger, blah blah blah

yeah so what, you still have to buy any decent software, sure you can find some free stuff, but windows users also have access to Free/Shareware and there is more of it.

Gimp is better than Photoshop? BWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

The reason that Linux will never ever beat windows is this, the software industry is not going to work for free, ever. Accept it.

it's easier to find/install drivers on linux? BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! right, cause clicking on MS update is so much harder than scouring the net for someone who happened to make a driver in their spare time that might work. Even BSD is a PITA to find drivers for.

The reason there is more viruses and security risks for windows is because it's used by 99% of the computing population, even if you have linux, some point in the day you use a windows machine. If linux became more popular, it would not last 5 minutes cause you can get the internal code online for free. Thats like giving the terrorists the blueprints for the white house and claiming even though the terrorists are more interested in larger targets, that because they haven't yet targeted it YET, they can't hit it.

Now I'm not a windows Zealot as someone previously said about us who actually don't let our raging hatred for MS(mine is more than most) bias our judgement, I think it is great for average use, but for what it gives you, you have to compare it to win 3.1, not 95, 98, ME and certainly not 2000 or 2003... XP in my opinion is an abombination.

Linux/and windows 3.1 are bikes, very little parts, very little to go wrong, and eveyone and their dog knows how to maintain one

Windows other than 3.1 are strech limos with all the fancy trimmings, and have many extra features so you can ride in style, but they need regular maint.

Unix is a Porsche 911 Turbo.

if you want limited usability and don't mind initially scouring the net for drivers, unless all your equipment is brand spanking new, and want unlimited up time, then Linux is great, if you want advanced usability and features, then go with Windows, if you want hard number crunching, suck it up and get Unix. Unix on x86 is the most powerful combo you can get at the moment unless you go beyond 4 CPUs.

Oh, and if you want you actually can buy Linux as an OEM installation... check out Hell er I mean Dell computers online

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Nice troll. Hmm, Nvidia and ATI have no Windows 3.1 drivers listed. Also my DVD burner doesn't seem to be supported either. Darn can't use all my memory either.

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The reason that Linux will never ever beat windows is this, the software industry is not going to work for free, ever. Accept it.

Thats all well and good but it doesn't make any sense because software that runs on Linux doesn't have to be open source. There are many commerical desktop applications for Linux.

You can have Photoshop for Linux or Flash for Linux without having to open source the product at all.

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your just mad because you sunk a ton of money into windows...

currently, the majority of developers are moving linux, animated graphics shops are moving to linux (check the lower post about blender3D).

Ever heard of a "windows supercomputer" ?
nope.. because they don't exist...

Windows is great for sucking money out of clueless users and the mom's and pop's out there.

You are a part of the mass of "sheeple"

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"it's easier to find/install drivers on linux? BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! right, cause clicking on MS update is so much harder than scouring the net for someone who happened to make a driver in their spare time that might work. Even BSD is a PITA to find drivers for."

I had a Compaq computer running Fedora Core 1. 400Mhz, winmodem, network connection, video, audio, USB, the usual stuff with drivers, etc. Worked fine but it was a bit slow. (Duh!)

I put together a new system (2GHz. Yea!) with a new motherboard. Had it's own network, audio, video, USB 2, etc. all different from the old Compaq.

Here's the kicker.

I removed the hard drive from the Compaq and installed it in the new computer. Then I turned on the power. Linux found all the right drivers for all the new hardware, configured and installed them and was running clean on that first power-up! I had to do NOTHING to change out the ENTIRE hardware set. No driver downloads. No broken settings.

Was I lucky? Maybe. But I can bet my house that ANY version of Windows cannot do that same trick!

Bonus story:

One day the video display on my neighbor's Windows XP computer began throwing artifacts on the screen and freezing the computer. He had not installed anything new and did not know what went wrong. He figured he'd need new hardware but called me before going to the store.

I booted Knoppix and it ran X just fine at the same color and resolution settings as Windows XP. But Windows XP still didn't work. We re-installed Windows XP. Everything good. We downloaded the updates from MS Update. Broken again. Turns out the update to the video driver FROM MS was broken. If he downloads that video driver update, it will break his OS. He cannot do auto-updates anymore.

In his case "clicking on MS update [really] is so much harder" than using Linux!

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Interesting post, but the open source nature of Linux and most of the applications that run on top of it are actually security strengths, not weaknesses, precisely the opposite of what you state.

It is not obscurity that makes any system secure, because then all you have to do is strike it lucky once to bring the system to its knees- it is transparent, secure code and uncrackable algorithms written and signed off by people who understand security and operating systems.

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<TT>I've been using linux since Red Hat 4.0 and there isn't one thing that linux can do better than Windows for the average home or office user. There isn't. <B> Face it.</B> It's fun for people who like to play arround with computers, but it doesn't do anything better on the desktop. It's cheaper, but when you can get a nice machine for five or six hundred bucks with XP preinstalled it will never be more than a hobby OS.</TT>

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- Surfing the web without fear of highjacking.
- No spyware
- No product activation
- Huge spectrum of GUI choices and customization options
- Hardware detection and automatic driver loading
- "...you can get a nice machine for [less than TWO] hundred bucks with [Linux] preinstalled..."

PS You font choice makes your troll comment hard to read.

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Not having to spend ages fixing bugs, viruses, crashes and adware certainly makes my life easier.

Some of my favourite programs work better under Linux (e.g. LyX, Gimp). This makes my life easier.

Having multiple desktops makes my life easier.

Having the software run faster makes my life easier. Having it not slow down as I open more applications makes my life easier.

Being able to install new software without leaving the confort of my chair is very convenient.

Fact is, I use Linux because I find it much easier to get things done in it than in Windows. I would never manage to be efficient on a Windows system. I've tried several times, but the experience is just too painful.

Linux inmensely reduces the hassle of hardware configuration (in my experience, it usually reduces it all the way down to zero). I find this convenient.

The Windows' window manager is very crappy. It doesn't have basic features that make my life easier (focus follows mouse, multiple desktops, themes, etc). Linux has those features and so makes my life easier.

Linux comes with a powerful command-line environment that permit me to do several things that would be much more difficult to accomplish with any gui. Yet, Liinux doesn't force me to use a command-line. The Linux guis (Gnome and kde) are far superior to Microsoft's offering.

There are many many things that Linux can do better and more easily than Windows.

Cheers,
Daniel.

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well i can understand what you are saying programs wise

ie photosop better then GIMP
the miriad of Windows Multimedia applications while people on linux are emulating what has already been done on Windows like Itunes Quicktime etc etc

But the applications that they do have work well and my system is rock solid and i never ever have to worry about Viruses its the very reason i switched over.
I also can do pretty much everything i did in windows now although with a learning curve

One thing i will say though is Linux is playing catch up because the industry in terms of people making commercial applications and new hardware don't support Linux , Linux developers have to find ways around which so the way they have gotten so far without much help from them is amazing.
For example we don't have Windows media player or quicktime but we can run Quicktime and Windows media files on Linux using actual windows codecs<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

I also won't use windows again due to my Moral Stance on their EULA licencing of Windows, it takes away far too many statutory rights

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You want to know what really bothers me about most Linux reviewers who are basically Windows users who need a topic to get them published, is the fact they hold Linux to a higher standard than Windows, especially when it comes to hardware 'autodetection'.

I ask you, when was the last time you installed Windows and it perfectly detected your video card? Never? You pretty much are stuck with the safe mode video until until you download and install the latest driver. Why do reviewers / journalists always expect Linux to popup magically with all hardware detected when Windows can't do the same then say its not ready? Makes no sense to me.

Of course, if it doesn't detect their hardware, you know what that means, yep, bag the whole thing and pick a new distro and see if that 'supports' thier hardware. Never understanding that hardware support is NOT DISTRIBUTION DEPENDANT. Usually all they would have to do is run modprobe xxx. They rarely bother asking anyone what to do because, like most IT journalists, they think they are gods gift to computing and rather than admit to weakness, they just complain about everything.

Really, what happened when you see a 'linux is not ready for the desktop' article, is that the writer got thier ass humbled by the realization that they don't know everything about computing they thought the did.

Back to using Linux, I think what makes Linux hard for a lot of people is the whole kernel module thing. They need a GUI that a. lists the drivers they have and b. lets them load modules. Looking in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/lib/modules and using commands like 'ls' and 'modprobe' are way above most people's skill level and well beyond that of the average Windows IT journalist's skill level. Otherwise most of them are stuck with Multiple Distro Installation Fever where they install every distro they can get their hands on in hope it autodetects their particular hardware.

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people just don't get it on the apps.
the gimp and open office are not shining examples of opensource software, they are just examples..

take a look at some of the apps like Blender3D that is taking over CG studio's. Look at InkScape and SodiPodi, look at the mono development platform

http://www.blender3d.com/
http://www.inkscape.org/
http://www.sodipodi.com/index.php3?section=screen<nobr>s<wbr></nobr> hots
http://mono-project.com/about/applications.html
Then:
Browser: http://texturizer.net/firefox/
Mail: http://www.novell.com/products/evolution/

If you run Gentoo, it is easy as cake to install something.
for instance: 'emerge inkscape' is all I need to do to install the app.. It downloads it, sets it up and adds in menu's etc.

Anyone saying that there are no decent apps for linux has thier head so far lodged up their a** that they have not been able to see enough to pay attention to anything.

For those people, yea.. stay on windows and keep throwing your money away.

joeldg - linux developer

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I had Debian installed and it was working great. Then after doing update once with deselect using all the standard options, my sound card and USB mouse stopped working. One of the packages wrecked a dependency and it took me days to find it.

Moral of the story: Even on a computer with pre-installed Linux, users will have to do updates, and the same problems will come up. Sad to say, Windows *is* much better at managing devices.

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Moral of the story: Even on a computer with pre-installed Linux, users will have to do updates, and the same problems will come up. Sad to say, Windows *is* much better at managing devices.

The moral of the story is, not matter what OS you are using, you best learn how to load and maintain device drivers.

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I have had the same problems occur during the loading of Windoze patches - things were broken and I ended up researching the issue, and loading new drivers to fix it.

So - what is the difference? Nothing.

Once the Linux desktop market grows large enough to make it worth developer's attention - then we will see linux versions of everything, including all the popular games (gaming is the only reason I keep a Windows box running on my network atm).

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I'm not trolling here. I use Debian on my "play" machine at home, but couldn't possibly use it as my desktop at work. I'm a lawyer. Ninety-five percent of lawyers work in solo or small firm practices. To get the job done, in addition to a high-end wordprocessor, I need at minimum the following applications to get the job done that (the last time I checked) are not available on Linux:

--Profession-specific time keeping and billing software;

--Profession-specific calendaring software;

--Accounting package that in addition to my own accounts will maintain client trust funds with a clear audit trail;

--Automated table of authorities and table of contents generator;

--Profession-specific file management system and search engine;

--Dedicated legal research system based on CD-ROMS with installed software;

--Increasingly, law firms are finding that they must embrace computers in the courtroom running software that integrates the trial plan with sophisticated presentations including animations and can accept court reporters' real-time transcription processes.

--The list goes on, and you'll find similar problems in many professions/businesses. Bottom line: If you're in a typical law practice, your only three choices are DOS, Windows, and MacIntosh. (And yes, DOS is a better platform for the legal profession than Linux because profession-specific applications are still available, although DOS is definitely in decline.)

I think the parent article makes a glaring mistake regarding the availability of software as a determinant in selecting an operating system: that the desktop "market" is driven by home users and workers with minimal software requirements, rather than by the most sophisticated software users in a given profession, industry, or individual business.

For example, it may be true that most people in an office could perform their portion of daily tasks using OpenOffice. But at the end of the day, someone has to take that legal brief, convert it to MS Word (no option to convert to WordPerfect, which would be even better), then generate an indexing table of authorities and a table of contents, using a specialized application that will only work with true WP or Word files. Another specialized app equally dependent on the Top Two's file formats will be run to convert each legal citation to a hyperlink to the WestLaw or similar legal research database. Once the document is final, it will be converted to a PDF or other specialized format for electronic filing with the court.

Every conversion between file formats introduces new opportunities for errors that can trash the file. And deadlines must be met. Bottom line: maybe the drones can get along with OpenOffice, but the skilled worker who has to apply the finishing touches can't cope with the risk of error introduced by the extra file format conversion. So, everyone in the shop uses WP or Word instead of OO, because the supporting apps aren't available for OO.

Multiply that extra complexity introduced by unnecessary file conversions for each specialized app in the office, and maybe you'll begin to get a glimmer why Linux just ain't ready for the law office.

And you'll find similar limiting factors across multiple professions. It isn't enough to be able to bang out simple letters using OO; lurking nearby is some mission-critical program that simply doesn't yet have a Linux equivalent. And it's the nonavailability of such specialized programs that keeps Linux from being ready for the desktop market.

There's some bridging technology out there such as specialized software from firms marketing to specialized markets via thin client services, and a few of those are now available for the legal profession too. But we're still a long way from the day when we can switch to Linux.

Make no mistake; I'd love to hop off the Microsoft treadmill. It just can't be done until Linux software becomes good enough to get the job done completely, instead of just good enough for most people.

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You make a very good point, one that is often ignored. I too have to use Windows at work. There may be an analogous set of apps to fulfill our needs, but the ones we have are doing well enough to justify staying with them, though increasing virus activity has led our IT department to seriously consider replacing IE, though that too presents problems as the NTS we use is web based, and does not work properly even under Netscape.

Windows has become the de facto standard after 30 years of recent computing history, for better or worse. In my opinion the existence of Linux is not in any way related to Windows. Linus Torvalds himself said that he was not out to destroy Microsoft, that would be an unintentional side effect. I think people read more into that than it means. He doesn't care, and neither should we. For one of the most zealous OS groups out there, the leader is remarkably unbiased.

Open Source software exists to fill a purpose, to make sure that no matter what the powers that be decide, that there will always be another way. The only places Open Source has flourished were those areas that lots and lots of people used and needed a replacement for (IE, Office, Outlook, the GUI itself), and the others work, but not necessarily flawlessly. That's because the alternatives are good enough.

In conclusion, it's a very slow necessity driven process, so we shouldn't be so freaking zealous about everything. After all, computers really are just tools.

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--Profession-specific time keeping and billing software;

I don't know exactly what you need "profession-specific"ally, but have a look at GnoTime. http://gttr.sourceforge.net/ It comes with Debian testing, which I currently run on my desktop...don't know about other distros.

I can't really help you with most of the other stuff, as you list "profession-specific" as a criteria for just about every software need you have. And, as we say on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/., IANAL, and don't have any clue what your profession-specific requirements are.
I would think, though, that not getting spyware installed that could dump all your confidential client info to a virus writer in Russia would be pretty high on the list....

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This is similar to another post I made in this thread, but this specific question might be better referred to GrokLaw.

parl

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PNP devices on Linux: oh god the horror. Anybody less than a power user will run screaming in terror back to Windows or OSX. Mounting USB mass storage devices, digital cameras, etc cannot be done in any reliable way, and often requires dropping to root and hacking fstab, tweaking modules.conf, etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....

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so, umm, you obviously don't run linux.

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I run Fedora Core 2. Just bought a digital camera and a digital video camera. The both "just worked" without any fuss.

You need to try again.

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Same report for RedHat 9 and Fedora Core 1.

The camera just worked, the 4-card card reader just worked, several other cameras just worked<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

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The idea behind this story is simple. Every time I suggest Linux to anyone, they invariably say, it is way too hard. I tell them the install can be, but Linux is a piece of cake. I know, 32 times, ranging from the newbie (My mom, my son) to tech savvy. If people writing Linux reviews stated, Linux install is Arduous, Tedious, Crappy, etc, I have no problem with that. But, they confuse installability with usability. Based on several hate emails (I always subscribe to the fact that if you aren't pissing people off you are probably wrong).


MultiMedia Apps not listed (simply for space) - XMMS, K3B, Juk, Xine, Mplayer, Audacity, NoAtun.


Quality fo Linux Apps - Mozilla/Firebird/Thunderbird, Evolution, K3b, XMMS, Juk, Audacity, Korganizer, KDE, GnomeMeeting, I will put them head to head against any commercial app in a comparison of function, ease of use, and snazziness.


Lack of specialty apps - I can't compare or provide alternatives for those I never use?


Software Install - If you follow the guides provided with your distro such as Suse or Mandrake, and you install software using their format, with the correct version, installing software is a breeze. Sure, RPMs are not as efficient as compiling, however, they are pretty simple. If the person who built the RPM did their job, any dependancy not satisfied is as simple as grabbing the disk your installer says it needs. Seriously. If my Mom can download and install a Suse 9.0 RPM by herself, it isn't hard. Could she download and install X as a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.tgz, I don't think so.


As a part 2 to this article, I jumped into how to OEM for yourself, but they chose not to because it has been done a lot. I posted it here if you are interested.


<A HREF="http://wave.prohosting.com/hlrguy/OEMLinux.html" title="prohosting.com">http://wave.prohosting.com/hlrguy/OEMLinux.html</a prohosting.com>

Kevin

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Win: plug in palm pilot, hit hot sync, everything works.
Lin: plug in palm pilot, oh wait, make sure that kpilot is started first before hitting hot sync, ok it's still not working, drop to root prompt and kill off zombie kpilot-daemon processes, alright now it works.

Win: plug in camera, up pop the images I've just shot
Lin: plug in camera, now which device is it? "Hard Disc 1 [/mnt/removable1]" or "Hard Disc 2 [/mnt/removable2]"? How do I transfer images to the hard drive? What's that you say, split the window in Konqueror or open a new one? Oh, but I can use digikam! But there's a problem, digikam expects the camera to be at a fixed location like<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/mnt/camera? Hmmm.....

Win: plug in sd card reader and card, up pops drive in explorer.
Lin: better hope you have a 2.6 kernel with the correct modules in place, otherwise it's hard-lock time (no oops, no crash: hardware lock). Oh, but let's see, magicdev didn't mount it this time, looks like I'll have to drop to root and edit fstab again.

Win: streaming and embedded media just work.
Lin: forget about it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

Win: cd with both audio and data plays music and is accessible as drive.
Lin: forget about it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....

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KPilot:? Wife, trust me I would hear, no problems, ahh, I get it, hot sink on the palm first, then start KPilot. I will try that.


Camera:? Something isn't configured there. Suse/Mandrake add the card reader automatically, and mount it automatically, and I change it to Open With GQView, then you can edit, copy, save, move anywhere. Wife gtkam with Cannon (no card reader), maybe try that one. For card readers, part of the OEM package I do. Being able to edit phtographs and SAVE then on the SD card without upload is a huge perk, then off to wallyworld for 24c prints.


SD writer: This has worked perfectly for me since Redhat 7.3. See Camera.


Streaming Media: Most except quicktime, and deliberatly disable flash for all my OEM installs. Of course WMV not playable. I also enable pop up blocker and set up their css files so that they have an Ad free web experience.


CD:? I don't know what you are trying to say, but if CD playing didn't work, for all my family, I would hear about it.



You make very valid points for Mandrake pre 9.1, Pre-Redhat 9.0, Pre Suse 8.2, but most of these are no longer issues. You might try a newer distro, or simply not, and stay with Windows. I just refuse to support Windows anymore, but I don't think anyone should use what doesn't work for them, I never have said that.

Kevin

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I think you make good points, and even the installation process is easy with the newer distros. For the corporate desktop I would say Linux is ready and has been for quite some time. For the home user? Well... With Windows, if you've bought a new piece of hardware that Windows has no drivers for, it's (in but a few cases) just to go to the manufacturer's website, download a file, click a few times, reboot, and it's working. It's not that easy in Linux (at least in my experience).

Also, there are a number of categories where apps are not available for Linux, keeping some power users away from the stability and ease of use. Musicians/studio techs would love the stability of the system had there been professional-level multitrack recording software and good support for low-latency pro soundcards.

And something keeping _many_ users in Windows is the lack of Adobe ports. This is Adobe's fault of course, not Linux'. But it's still the #1 answer I get when I ask people why they haven't tried or switched to Linux yet: "I can't run Photoshop/AfterEffects/Premiere" etc. The Gimp is a step on the way to a Photoshop "clone" but feature-wise it's still lacking a lot of tools for professionals (haven't used it in a while, does it have CMYK yet?)

For now, I'm dual-booting but find myself spending more and more time in Linux. It's killer for web development, as Apache/MySQL/PHP on Windows is a bloody bloated mess.

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I agree with your point about Linux being ready for the corporate desktop. Certainly for the "transactional worker", where all MS Windows ever was was a defacto proxy for a mainframe/AS400 terminal with maybe some word processing and an email client.

Linux fits in perfectly, because you are going to need sysadmin and centralised control in there anyway. So many apps are delivered via web browsers these days, it's no more than a technicality to migrate.

I think though that you have to understand the LAMP thing as an enormously fortuitious coincidence in the Linux world. It was never meant to be that way, and really can't be said to be an inherent strength of linux.

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Actually, the way my laptop is set up right now (still Slackware 9.1 for the moment) it plays Quicktime and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.wmv files just fine through Xine. I generally don't have a problem playing embedded files from web sites through the Gxine plug-in for Firefox.

Incidentally, it actually plays DVDs better in Linux now than in Windows (which surprised me a little), ever since I realized ide-scsi was no longer necessary to burn disks and stopped loading it. It has trouble with a lot of 3D games in Linux, thanks to the inadequacy of the ATI binary drivers, but it still manages full screen, full motion video quite nicely.

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I'm a keen GNU/Linux fan and user, but I'd be a liar if I said it was fundamentally easier than Windows to use and administer. For each application I have to work out the syntax of the config file, as wild as M4A macros, as obtuse as httpd.conf. To run (and connect to) a file server I have to get my head around NFS - and as for authentication, well, NIS -forget it.

In all fairness, many of the problems with Windows come from misconfiguration and misuse. Running as Administrator and browsing websites/checking email, is folly. Using a web browser<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/mail client that is tightly integrated with the OS to browse the internet isn't too clever, but in certain contexts is a strength of the OS. Running services you don't need is also inadvisable.

We have to admit something these days too, MS have come a long way in creating a solid, predictable OS. The BSOD and dll hell days are over.

In its default mode, Windows is unsuited to the connected world. The truth is THAT CAN BE FIXED. But can you imagine how far the Linux community has to go before you can rip 40 PCs and a server out of their packaging and within a few hours have the fully functioning equivalent of a W2K domain without any great technical skills?

Aside from the ethical and cost issues, we shouldn't forget a few things.

• 
  The first is that people are happy to pay good money for an OS and applications. We in the OSS community often disagree, but the perceived benefits that derive from that expenditure outweigh the cost. A computer is more important to a lot of people than their car, and nobody expects to travel for free.
  


• 
  The second is that in order for MS to have an unassailable desktop OS, all they have to do is fix the one they've got. There are no organisational inadequacies they need to resolve, no cultural hurdles, no technical paradigm shifts. They just need to tighten a few screws and bolt a few doors. We cannot rely on MS to screw up in order to win the desktop.
  

Here's a thought. Let's ditch<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc and ship a lightweight mysql daemon, with a tight schema. Let's write a neat little X windows interface, and start getting apps moved over. That could be the start.

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Yep, could be a start but as you can tell from the posts above Linux is already there, hell, its better than anything MS has ever done!

Except for one small detail...Microsoft is winning and winning big.
No decline in desktop use despite it being predicted now for 5 years that MS is going to nova.
Servers? MS is getting a bigger grip on that market every quarter, the ones losing are commercial Unix.

If the people posting here are any measure then I can tell you why Linux wont get anywhere anytime soon, pure arrogance.

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You are right. We need humility, and we need it now, if we are to gain anything. If you love GNU, if you love Linux, if you love Free and/or OSS, you've got to admit how crap it is. It's like breaking a drug addiction. You've got to admit it before you can crack it.

Linux will run for years. It will never break. You can do 4 times the amount of work on the same spec PC with Linux than you can with Windows. It's bulletproof from a security point of view. Even the fonts are gorgeous.

BUT IT'S STILL CRAP. Why? Because it's crap where it counts. It's crap somewhere between the keyboard and the kernel, and that's where it counts. If we can't sort that, we're stuffed, because sure as hell, MS will fix it at their end before we do. I can promise you that.

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RedHat/Fedora will net you a GUI for the common (yet simple) configurations for Apache.

But that is a server issue, not a "Desktop" issue which is what the article is about.

NFS mounting? In RH/FC that's a cake walk too. There is a GUI for that as well. Works well too.

The BSOD and dll hell days are over.
Sorry, not true. On my 12 hour shift, I am the sole Linux guy, surrounded by Windows experts. They walk Xp on their machines. Often we wind up using my linux machine for movies because theirs freezes or gets so bogged down it is unwatchable. We have the same hardware.

They have had to reinstall many many times due to MS updates screwing up their systems, or just plain registry corruption. Me? not once.

About every other work day I hear at least one of them say "Man I gotta learn Linux, I'm tired of this crap."

But can you imagine how far the Linux community has to go before you can rip 40 PCs and a server out of their packaging and within a few hours have the fully functioning equivalent of a W2K domain without any great technical skills?

First, you assuem I need a "fully featured windows domain" for 40 computers. I just asked my fellow workers, and they say "no way".

Are you talking about 40 pre-installed machines? if not, Linux smacks Windows down in that regard. Experience. Preinstalled it's probably fairly close, though slight edge to Linux based on my experience. Are you including office applications installation? Definite edge to modern Linux distros.

Here's a thought. Let's ditch<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc and ship a lightweight mysql daemon, with a tight schema. Let's write a neat little X windows interface, and start getting apps moved over. That could be the start.

We aren't holding you back. Go for it. But you may want to look at PostgreSQL, it would be better suited. Indeed, some of it is already done for you. pam_pgsql for authentication.

NIS? hell no!
LDAP or PostgreSQL, yup? Especially since Postfix, apache, Zope, and many other things can tie into it.

#

oh and you'll also want/need to make command line apps to do it too.

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oh and im pretty sure i can cut and paste from any app to any app in windows using the same methods. im pretty sick of having to go back and recopy crap 30 times in X in order for another app to actually be able to get it

why cant x have its own clipboard? is it so much to ask to have a consistent interface in general? thats a big reason windows is picked up quicker by retards er old people. once they learn how to use one app they can probably figure out the next one because it all uses the same api

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There is, give this a try. I can cut/paste from Mozilla to Openoffice to text editors to consoles to whatever. Anything that can be highlighted, including any web page, highlight it, go to the app you want to cut/paste to, put the cursor where you want it and hit the middle mouse button (left and right simultaneously). This is something I show all newbies and it always makes them smile. Try it, highlight, then middle click (left and right simultaneously if 2 button mouse). The only time I find this doesn't work is if I am highlighting text and a javascript window. When I hihglight middle click to Openoffice, I even get the tables and html. No copy special/paste special required.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

Kevin

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I can just see it happen: an ubergeek, just out of his dark basement, masturbating over the latest leinux-distroh

C'mon GET REAL MAN. Start writing drivers for hardware out there and let THE MARKET decide instead of writing useless masturbate-articles.

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It is preinstalled. Otherwise Joe Sixpack will be baffled.

All my customers of preinstalled Linux systems have been very happy. They like the speed (preinstalled systems can have key applications compiled especially for the hardware for a 10x+ speed improvement) and the security (no virii, worms, trojans, etc.)

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If someone can point me towards a replacement for Outlook which would interface with the Exchange server, I would change in an instant.

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Um, Ximian Evolution is almost a mirror image of outlook. The only bummer is that the Exchgange Server guys need to install the Evolution Connector (not free). So convincing your evil empire barrons to buy something extra so that you can use linux will probably be a lesson in futility. At least here at Lockheed Martin in Eagan, MN it is.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:p

I want linux!! The only piece of SW that I use that needs MS is Word because OpenOffice doesn't compare with the features that Word offers.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...however, there is Wine...

Radman

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The only bummer is that the Exchgange Server guys need to install the Evolution Connector (not free).

Nope. Novell released the Ximian Connector under the GPL, and you can download it directly from <A HREF="http://www.novell.com/products/connector/" title="novell.com">
http://www.novell.com/products/connector/</a novell.com>

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and the other half<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... you DO NOT install anything to the SERVER. They just need to enable (or leave enabled?) Outlook Web Access.

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I'm a United States Marine--I use Linux. Marines have this strange, and well founded reputation for being mental bricks. And I've observed this numerous times, even in one of the more technical MOS's that the Marine Corps has (electronics repair). I've also seen Marines who can find the component that's causing a Radio not to work who can't operate Windows without asking me stupid questions. One day a Marine approached me and asked to borrow my laptop, on which I have SuSE Linux installed. I said, OK, handed her my computer, and said, just log in as 'guest' and that she might be more comfortalbe in Windows, to boot that. When I encountered her later that day, she asked me a brief question--something about fonts or line spacing, I think, and when I looked at the screen, I was quite surprised to see that she was hapilly, and with no problems working in Linux. When I querried about this, she commented that she couldn't figure out how to do stuff in Windows, so she rebooted into Linux.

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First off, I am a Linux advocate. My favored platform for programming and databases is Linux, and I use it at work and home.

That said, Linux is not ready for the masses, at least not as of RH80. Yes, I know there are newer and other distros around, but I use Linux because I want a unix environment to work in. I do not enjoy installing new versions.

Here's an example: I have setup a linux box for my family to use email. Just try setting up evolution so that MPGs and WAV files can be played directly from the email. Dead simple in Windows, there's nothing to do, as Outlook already knows how to deal with them.

The information to set this up in Evolution is simply not available without a *lot* of digging, and then it is still a ridiculous kludge.

How to setup evolution? Why, change the parms in Nautilus of course! Yeah, real simple, and terribly intuitive.

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at least not as of RH80.

uhh that version is A FEW YEARS OLD already. Current Evo works quite well, and no nautilus configs needed. Try soemthgin current when talking about how things are NOW and not SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

Unwittingly you have demonstrated exactly what the article's author is complaining about.

If you don't like upgrading, then at least have the decency to not complain about the CURRENT state of Linux.

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1. Stop wasting everyone's time with another linux/windows comparison. Mercilessly review Linux apps as they compare to the Windows equivalent. "Just like Windows" will not do it. Consumers will switch when there is something awesome that Windows does not provide.

2. The "look at all the other free stuff that Linux comes with" arguement doesn't work. If I could sell a 2004 BMW for $100, what would be your first reaction? Most likely, "What's wrong with the BMW?" Same argument for Linux with free software.

3. Linux apps are still not very good. An example is "print selection" on KDE apps. The KDE browser and email client on SUSE do NOT have this option. I had to switch to Mozilla apps to get it. The average user would simply feel betrayed.

5. Linux hardware support is still terrible. The best drivers are one's that are for hardware that are pretty much out of circulation.

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I have to disagree with the author here. I think Linux in general is easier to set up, install and configure than Windows. Maybe it's because I'm more familiar with it at this stage... I just find Linux more flexible and having a package manager is really cool. No googling for software, all I have to do is open up Konsole, su and apt-get install. Linux is real nice to administer, it's nice and secure and it's free so I'll always have an up to date system without having to part with a single cent.

The part where Linux falls down in comparison to Windows and Mac OS X is general day to day usage. I have a KDE desktop and I use KDE only apps except for OpenOffice.org. Even at this nicely integrated environment, things still don't really gel together that well. With a default install of KDE, it takes about 20 minutes for me to go through the Control Centre to remove much of the unneeded clutter from the Desktop and to have look a bit minimal and stylish. Also, the increasing lack of app stability is starting to be a bit annoying.

While there are plenty of good working apps available for Linux, most of them seem to be quite clunky. There's no MP3 player that comes anywhere close to iTunes. CD burning in K3B is too complicated. KDE really needs CD burning integrated into Konqueror so you can drag 'n' drop files onto a blank CD on the Desktop to burn them.

Linux is only starting to catch up (usability wise) to where Windows was in 1998. (I'm not talking about stability, security or even looks) With Panther out and Tiger on the way and also with Longhorn coming out in the next few years, Linux will find it even more of a struggle to compete on the Desktop.

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I work with telephone switches, mostly Panasonic and (now) Zultys. Panasonic has both DOS and Windows applications which are used to connect to and program the phone swtiches. (The Voice Mail boxes just use a VT-100 emulator.) While Zultys is Linux based internally, the only desktop client and desktop admin program are Windows based. When I asked about this in class, I was told that porting these programs over to *n*x was too hard. (sigh) The sys-admin for my (OK, small) company seems to be wedded to Windows. OK, rant off.

Anyway, the problem I see here is that in specialized fields, there are unique proprietary programs which are not likely to be developed by the free software community, both because of proprietary knowledge needed for their development and because of the tiny user base. i.e., how many people NEED a program to configure and maintain a Panasonic KX-TDA100 phone switch? And how many are going to want that as a Linux tar, rpm or srpm, deb, etc.? Probably dozens in the US or maybe even hundreds world-wide. But that's not going to cut it for a viable sourceforge project. I guess my complaint is that the Linux desktop is aiming at the average office user (and properly so), but that leaves specialized industries like mine out in the cold.

The best I've been able to come up with is a single Windows remote access (that is, dial-out) server on the network, accessable via something like PC-Anywhere from a Linux desktop so that I can call a customer site from it, while still sitting at my desktop (a Linux box - I hope, I hope). This would limit us to one dial-out at a time, but that's not usually a problem. Of course that leaves my lap-top (taken to user sites for similar programming) as a Win box as well, or maybe a dual boot. But my understanding is that Win XP doesn't share disk space too well with Linux, except over a network (i.e., not as a dual boot setup).

Sorry to be so rambling, but I guess that reflects my thoughts on this complex and confusing topic.

parl

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There's a table of equivalents of Windows software in Linux on LinuxBegin site:

<A HREF="http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml/" title="linuxshop.ru">http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/ta<nobr>b<wbr></nobr> le.shtml/</a linuxshop.ru>

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I have used Linux since autumn of 1993 (as best I can recall). I have a menagerie of machines, none of which have anything but Linux installed (I might try a BSD one of these days). Recently on an extended vacation I needed Internet access where all that was available at my place of lodging was Windows XP. I found it counter intuitive to move to Windows from Linux. Lots of high level goodies that hide what's going on; get in trouble and it's hard to get back out. Finally a DSL router showed up at the door which supported wireless and I could return to my Linux laptop (from Los Alamos Computers). The trauma was over. Windows XP is really hard - to make it work right you must have to be a computer geek.

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I used to exclusively use Linux on the desktop until 2001. The thing that stopped me being an anti-Microsoft biggot and moved me over to Windows was -- initially, at least -- Microsoft's Visual Studio. This is a fantastic piece of software for Linux which has no equivalent. Yes, there are packages that try to emulate it, such a KDevelop, but none quite make the grade. In fact, I find Visual Studio so much more productive (especially its debugger) that I use it by preference when writing cross-platform software, and even software targetted at POSIX platforms.

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