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Quickbooks: the missing link for small business Linux
By Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
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December 16, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)
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Last week I was talking with a small business IT consultant who switches clients' servers to Linux (and Samba) all day long without any problems, but finds few clients interested in moving their desktops to Linux. The reason? "QuickBooks," he said. While there are many small business accounting packages that happily run on Linux, including GnuCash, Quasar, SQL-Ledger, and AccPac, QuickBooks dominates this market. And its loyal users don't want to switch to another package even if it's just as good as -- or possibly better than -- QuickBooks.
My consultant friend pointed out that OpenOffice.org Calc -- the OOo spreadsheet function -- can handle most small business bookkeeping and accounting tasks in the hands of a skilled spreadsheet user. But he also noted that most small business people are not spreadsheet experts. Not only that, those who use QuickBooks are used to the way QuickBooks does things and are reluctant to change.
In other words, it's a training issue as much as anything else. The cost of the software is negligible compared to the time and energy QuickBooks users have invested in learning the program and its quirks.
Accounting is often the most-hated and least-understood part of a small business owner's responsibilities. Once he or she finds an accounting packge that works well, and learns how to use it, he or she is reluctant to try anything new.
Converting the vendor, not the users
I used QuickBooks publisher Intuit's online media inquiry form to ask, "'When will be be able to use the words 'QuickBooks' and 'Linux' in the same sentence?"
A week later, I still had no reply.
I checked the CodeWeavers Web site to see if QuickBooks might work under Linux with their Wine-based CrossOver Office product.
All I saw was QuickBooks Pro with a "Bronze" usability rating, the lowest of the three that CodeWeavers gives. Other QuickBooks versions were shown as "not tested."
On the phone, though, CodeWeavers chief operating officer Jon Parshall drew a slightly more encouraging picture. It turns out that CodeWeavers uses QuickBooks to do its own corporate books -- on Linux, through its CrossOver Office product.
Jon said there were "some layout issues" with the program's GUI, but that "other than minor cosmetics, QuickBooks pro is pretty much functional" in CrossOver Office.
He also said, "We're hoping to forge a closer working relationship with Intuit. We have been in contact with them."
The problem is, squashing Wine/CrossOver bugs for a large application like QuickBooks is both tedious and expensive, and to make CrossOver Office run QuickBooks flawlessly would cost tens of thousands of dollars. So far, Jon says, Intuit hasn't wanted to cough up that much cash to penetrate the Linux desktop market. He raised the old "chicken and egg" cliche, but it certainly applies in this situation: the ability to run QuickBooks on Linux would help speed Linux adoption among QuickBooks's traditional small business user base, but it's not worth Intuit's time and money either to do a direct Linux port or pay for Wine customization to exploit the Linux desktop market until it's quite a bit larger than it is today.
Plus, Jon pointed out, a Wine-based "Quickbooks for Linux" would raise all sorts of support issues, and "people would call Intuit and yell at them, not at us," he said. So an Intuit-sponsored, Intuit-marketed, Wine-based "Quickbooks for Linux" would need to work well nigh flawlessly; CrossOver Office and free Wine tend to be used by Linux cognoscenti who are forgiving of small bugs that don't affect a program's functionality, but Intuit's customer base is less software-hip than CodeWeavers', and may not think "Don't sweat the small stuff" is a philosophy they should practice when dealing with software vendors.
Linux keeps marching onto those desktops
Linux desktop use keeps growing, a few machines here, a dozen there, a hundred across town, slowly and steadily. While highly-publicized big-company Linux adoptions may not directly affect QuickBooks sales, they tend to make small businesses think more about converting to Linux, and every small business that converts to Linux is one potential customer less for QuickBooks, which also faces growing competition in the Windows small business space from Microsoft itself.
The funny thing is, Microsoft's sales efforts on behalf of its Magellan product, which is essentially Microsoft Office with bookkeeping functionality added, may help tip some QuickBooks users toward Linux. If QuickBooks is "the" application that's keeping a company on Windows, and Microsoft's salespeople talk about how QuickBooks can't compete with their product or how QuickBooks isn't "all that" and can be dumped without harming a potential customer's business, why shouldn't that customer also consider other bookeeping software products -- including some of the Linux ones mentioned at the beginning of this article?
In other words, every negative word Microsoft says about QuickBooks helps open a door to consideration not only of Microsoft products but also of GnuCash, GNU/Linux, and OpenOffice.org. And when it comes to price, these three offerings beat any Windows software combination hands-down. Even better, they offer freedom from licensing headaches and possible financial ruin from software piracy accusations.
QuickBooks is not open source, nor does anyone expect Intuit to open its code base anytime soon. But keeping track of one set of software licenses, possibly on only a few of a business's computers, is a lot easier than wading through a 13 page pdf document and hoping it teaches you how to track every operating system and program in your entire workplace.
It's Intuit's choice
Right now Intuit depends on Windows users for most of its sales -- while Microsoft works to take away as many of Intuit's customers as it can.
Linux-based QuickBooks and Quicken would face no direct competition from Microsoft, and it would be easy for Intuit to get almost every popular commercial Linux distribution to include trial versions of their products in return for commissions on each software sale those trial versions generated.
The ideal way for Intuit to move gradually toward Linux would be with browser-based, Internet-capable versions of its most popular products that could be used through any desktop operating system, and could also be installed behind a company's firewall -- on a Linux-powered server, of course.
Unfortunately, the current version of QuickBooks: Online Edition only runs on Windows.
Apparently Intuit believes Microsoft's financial products will never take away enough of their Windows market share to matter. The people who developed and marketed WordPerfect and Netscape for Windows held similar beliefs. You can argue, correctly, that back when these two products were getting outcompeted by Microsoft Office and MSIE, Linux was not yet a viable desktop alternative to Windows.
But this is no longer true, and any business software company that competes directly with Microsoft and doesn't come up with a Linux alternative within the next year is opening itself to a two-front war, with Microsoft attacking it from the Windows side while a growing number of increasingly sophisticated free software projects take away potential market share among Linux users. And this could be a total disaster for Inuit, which is already operating in the red and needs to do something major to become profitable again.
In other words, it's a training issue as much as anything else. The cost of the software is negligible compared to the time and energy QuickBooks users have invested in learning the program and its quirks.
Accounting is often the most-hated and least-understood part of a small business owner's responsibilities. Once he or she finds an accounting packge that works well, and learns how to use it, he or she is reluctant to try anything new.
Converting the vendor, not the users
I used QuickBooks publisher Intuit's online media inquiry form to ask, "'When will be be able to use the words 'QuickBooks' and 'Linux' in the same sentence?"
A week later, I still had no reply.
I checked the CodeWeavers Web site to see if QuickBooks might work under Linux with their Wine-based CrossOver Office product.
All I saw was QuickBooks Pro with a "Bronze" usability rating, the lowest of the three that CodeWeavers gives. Other QuickBooks versions were shown as "not tested."
On the phone, though, CodeWeavers chief operating officer Jon Parshall drew a slightly more encouraging picture. It turns out that CodeWeavers uses QuickBooks to do its own corporate books -- on Linux, through its CrossOver Office product.
Jon said there were "some layout issues" with the program's GUI, but that "other than minor cosmetics, QuickBooks pro is pretty much functional" in CrossOver Office.
He also said, "We're hoping to forge a closer working relationship with Intuit. We have been in contact with them."
The problem is, squashing Wine/CrossOver bugs for a large application like QuickBooks is both tedious and expensive, and to make CrossOver Office run QuickBooks flawlessly would cost tens of thousands of dollars. So far, Jon says, Intuit hasn't wanted to cough up that much cash to penetrate the Linux desktop market. He raised the old "chicken and egg" cliche, but it certainly applies in this situation: the ability to run QuickBooks on Linux would help speed Linux adoption among QuickBooks's traditional small business user base, but it's not worth Intuit's time and money either to do a direct Linux port or pay for Wine customization to exploit the Linux desktop market until it's quite a bit larger than it is today.
Plus, Jon pointed out, a Wine-based "Quickbooks for Linux" would raise all sorts of support issues, and "people would call Intuit and yell at them, not at us," he said. So an Intuit-sponsored, Intuit-marketed, Wine-based "Quickbooks for Linux" would need to work well nigh flawlessly; CrossOver Office and free Wine tend to be used by Linux cognoscenti who are forgiving of small bugs that don't affect a program's functionality, but Intuit's customer base is less software-hip than CodeWeavers', and may not think "Don't sweat the small stuff" is a philosophy they should practice when dealing with software vendors.
Linux keeps marching onto those desktops
Linux desktop use keeps growing, a few machines here, a dozen there, a hundred across town, slowly and steadily. While highly-publicized big-company Linux adoptions may not directly affect QuickBooks sales, they tend to make small businesses think more about converting to Linux, and every small business that converts to Linux is one potential customer less for QuickBooks, which also faces growing competition in the Windows small business space from Microsoft itself.
The funny thing is, Microsoft's sales efforts on behalf of its Magellan product, which is essentially Microsoft Office with bookkeeping functionality added, may help tip some QuickBooks users toward Linux. If QuickBooks is "the" application that's keeping a company on Windows, and Microsoft's salespeople talk about how QuickBooks can't compete with their product or how QuickBooks isn't "all that" and can be dumped without harming a potential customer's business, why shouldn't that customer also consider other bookeeping software products -- including some of the Linux ones mentioned at the beginning of this article?
In other words, every negative word Microsoft says about QuickBooks helps open a door to consideration not only of Microsoft products but also of GnuCash, GNU/Linux, and OpenOffice.org. And when it comes to price, these three offerings beat any Windows software combination hands-down. Even better, they offer freedom from licensing headaches and possible financial ruin from software piracy accusations.
QuickBooks is not open source, nor does anyone expect Intuit to open its code base anytime soon. But keeping track of one set of software licenses, possibly on only a few of a business's computers, is a lot easier than wading through a 13 page pdf document and hoping it teaches you how to track every operating system and program in your entire workplace.
It's Intuit's choice
Right now Intuit depends on Windows users for most of its sales -- while Microsoft works to take away as many of Intuit's customers as it can.
Linux-based QuickBooks and Quicken would face no direct competition from Microsoft, and it would be easy for Intuit to get almost every popular commercial Linux distribution to include trial versions of their products in return for commissions on each software sale those trial versions generated.
The ideal way for Intuit to move gradually toward Linux would be with browser-based, Internet-capable versions of its most popular products that could be used through any desktop operating system, and could also be installed behind a company's firewall -- on a Linux-powered server, of course.
Unfortunately, the current version of QuickBooks: Online Edition only runs on Windows.
Apparently Intuit believes Microsoft's financial products will never take away enough of their Windows market share to matter. The people who developed and marketed WordPerfect and Netscape for Windows held similar beliefs. You can argue, correctly, that back when these two products were getting outcompeted by Microsoft Office and MSIE, Linux was not yet a viable desktop alternative to Windows.
But this is no longer true, and any business software company that competes directly with Microsoft and doesn't come up with a Linux alternative within the next year is opening itself to a two-front war, with Microsoft attacking it from the Windows side while a growing number of increasingly sophisticated free software projects take away potential market share among Linux users. And this could be a total disaster for Inuit, which is already operating in the red and needs to do something major to become profitable again.
Comments
on Quickbooks: the missing link for small business LinuxNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
And its loyal users don't want to switch to another package even if it's just as good as -- or possibly better than -- QuickBooks
Fine, whatever. I don't really care much about people who are so close minded that they can't work a little to make their lives better. People who think like this deserve whatever comes their way when they eventually HAVE to switch when Quickbooks fails to do something important. It happens eventually, to every piece of software.
That being said, my wife (and president) uses GnuCash to manage the accounting for <A HREF="http://suso.org/" title="suso.org">our business</a suso.org> and she loves it. She and I have learned how to use it and adapt it for our needs. It took a bit of times to learn and there is not a lot of tutorials or documentation on it, but eventually you get the hang of it and it works rather well. Kudos to the GnuCash folks who took the time to make something nice.
My only complaint about GnuCash is that it is not focused on a specific purpose, which makes it try to do everything you can with money management. In my opinion this is hampering GnuCash from being something even better. I think GnuCash would really benifit from a code fork where you could have a couple of programs focused on different goals. You could have "GnuCash Wallet", geared towards helping people manage their personal money, finances and mortgage payments. Then there would be "GnuCash Enterprise" or something simular that would be focused on helping businesses manage their accounting and payroll. Making this kind of code split would greatly help the interface improve overtime and be less of a clutter.
The GnuCash team has already made this issue known on its website, but as far as I have seen, has done little to move towards forking the code.
As a GnuCash user and supporter, I would like to give my vote for a code fork.
Have you thought about contributing a tutorial? Or perhaps some HowTos ?
Most open source projects are starving for volunteers, and I happen to know that GnuCash is not the exception. Please write a few HowTos, every little bit helps. Talk to the GnuCash people about expanding their documentation page (if they have one) with your contributions. If they don't have one, talk to them about making one.
HowTos are generally the first step in open source documentation. They are fairly short, easy to write, require minimal coordination, etc. From my experience, I think that the natural progression for open source documentation is:
1) HowTos.
2) Tutorials.
3) A complete manual.
If you are interested, I would be happy to talk to you and share my experiences. I run the OOoAuthors project, which is the development site for OpenOffice.org documentation. You can reach me at dcarrera{at}openoffice{dot}org.
Cheers,
Daniel Carrera
OpenOffice.org volunteer.
Most open source projects are starving for volunteers, and I happen to know that GnuCash is not the exception. Please write a few HowTos, every little bit helps. Talk to the GnuCash people about expanding their documentation page (if they have one) with your contributions. If they don't have one, talk to them about making one.
HowTos are generally the first step in open source documentation. They are fairly short, easy to write, require minimal coordination, etc. From my experience, I think that the natural progression for open source documentation is:
1) HowTos.
2) Tutorials.
3) A complete manual.
If you are interested, I would be happy to talk to you and share my experiences. I run the OOoAuthors project, which is the development site for OpenOffice.org documentation. You can reach me at dcarrera{at}openoffice{dot}org.
Cheers,
Daniel Carrera
OpenOffice.org volunteer.
Yes, actually, we where thinking about doing this. My wife has become proficient enough with it that she could probably write a "How to use GnuCash for small business" tutorial. I think we'll get started on this.
You know, the fact that most open source projects are starving for volunteers means that we're not getting the word out to everyone in the community. I have met a lot of people who are novices with OSS, but would like to become more involved, but they think it takes more. I have tried to encourage them, but its hard to find where to get started.
We need some kind of OSS volunteer job search site. Like the wanted ads or something. Heh, hey, another project idea.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)
You know, the fact that most open source projects are starving for volunteers means that we're not getting the word out to everyone in the community. I have met a lot of people who are novices with OSS, but would like to become more involved, but they think it takes more. I have tried to encourage them, but its hard to find where to get started.
We need some kind of OSS volunteer job search site. Like the wanted ads or something. Heh, hey, another project idea.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)
I would be very interested in this tutorial, myself, as I haven't been able to even get started with GNUCash
There are a few GnuCash help documents available, including at least one geared toward small business.
- <A HREF="http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v1.8/C/gnucash-help/help.html" title="gnucash.org">http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v1.8/C/gnucash-help/h<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> lp.html</a gnucash.org>
- <A HREF="http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v1.8/C/gnucash-guide/" title="gnucash.org">http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v1.8/C/gnucash-guide/</a gnucash.org>
- <A HREF="http://www.gnucash.org/en/sql.phtml" title="gnucash.org">http://www.gnucash.org/en/sql.phtml</a gnucash.org>
- <A HREF="http://www.gnucash.org/en/docs.phtml" title="gnucash.org">http://www.gnucash.org/en/docs.phtml</a gnucash.org>
- <A HREF="http://www.aerospacesoftware.com/GNU_Cash_for_Business_users_Howto_Guide.html" title="aerospacesoftware.com">http://www.aerospacesoftware.com/GNU_Cash_for_Bus<nobr>i<wbr></nobr> ness_users_Howto_Guide.html</a aerospacesoftware.com>
- <A HREF="http://www.aerospacesoftware.com/GnuCash.tgz" title="aerospacesoftware.com">http://www.aerospacesoftware.com/GnuCash.tgz</a aerospacesoftware.com>
The GnuCash home page is at <A HREF="http://www.gnucash.org/" title="gnucash.org">http://www.gnucash.org/</a gnucash.org>.
They run a user mail list which has a very professional and supportive atmosphere. They have an active IRC channel. They also have a wiki that started quite a long while ago.
GnuCash is based on the standard double-entry accounting system. This can be learned directly from any Accounting I text book, which is a great reference tool for any small business owner.
-DMM
Intuit products are very needed applications on Linux. There is a massive number of users of QuickBooks. There is an even greater number of TurboTax users. Neither of these applications have a Linux equivalent.
GnuCash is great but, it cannot be compared to QuickBooks. Anyone who does compare them has either never used QuickBooks or does not fully understand accounting and what QuickBooks does.
GnuCash, as well as Kapital from The Kompany and some others, are more similar to Quicken than QuickBooks and even when comparing these Linux applications to Quicken, they fall short in areas of ease-of-use and features.
As for TurboTax, there is no Linux equivalent.
Linux on the desktop will make a tremendous step forward when Intuit decides to port their applications to Linux, or a truly viable open source alternative comes about. As for when Intuit might do that, it doesn't seem that it will be anytime soon. Right now, Intuit doesn't seem to be at all interested in the Linux market.
GnuCash is great but, it cannot be compared to QuickBooks. Anyone who does compare them has either never used QuickBooks or does not fully understand accounting and what QuickBooks does.
GnuCash, as well as Kapital from The Kompany and some others, are more similar to Quicken than QuickBooks and even when comparing these Linux applications to Quicken, they fall short in areas of ease-of-use and features.
As for TurboTax, there is no Linux equivalent.
Linux on the desktop will make a tremendous step forward when Intuit decides to port their applications to Linux, or a truly viable open source alternative comes about. As for when Intuit might do that, it doesn't seem that it will be anytime soon. Right now, Intuit doesn't seem to be at all interested in the Linux market.
"Right now, Intuit doesn't seem to be at all interested in the Linux market."
Actually, they haven't seemed too interested since at least 1999, which is when I first wrote them and mentioned that if they want to keep their market share, they should start taking a serious look at Linux.
Since, I also let them know that I would not be using Turbo Tax any more due to the microsoft-like product activation (which has since been taken away, but I haven't bothered to go back). And, just recently, when a client decided on QuickBooks Online against my recommendations, I sent Intuit another email stating my concerns about the fact that it won't work with any other browser than IE, the security risks this involves, and that due to industry analyst recommendations from the likes of the Gartner Group, many would be moving away from that browser.
Absolutely none of these emails were answered, even though they were written in a professional and concerned way from a user [me] that had used Quicken regularly from about 1988, and Turbo Tax since the early '90's before Intuit picked it up (from Chipsoft I believe). I just chalked it up as bandwidth wasted on a non-caring vendor that seems to be quite happy with where they are. Even a generic canned response would have been better than nothing, but I guess they felt they had risen above the concerns of customers that had helped build their empire.
I've now become very happy using GnuCash, and actually prefer the way it works in many ways to Quicken or QuickBooks (aside from working on my platform of choice), but detest the fact that I have to boot Windows to do my taxes each year with Tax Cut (yes, I could do them online, but prefer not to for security reasons).
Personally, I think that Intuit has grown to the point that it can no longer see the sores on its butt that have festered and developed into boils. If they don't see a doctor soon, they'll lose it!
Turbo Tax will run under CodeWeavers wine.
Yes, but after having been a "loyal" Intuit customer for so many years just to be shrugged off (or at least completely ignored) when inquiring about alternative platform support, I haven't felt the inclination to bother with them or thier software anymore (aside from asking them if they plan on supporting other, more secure, browsers for their QB Online edition, which was ignored as well).
So, and until I find another suitable alternative, each year I boot the small partition that holds Win98 (and yes, I know it's a lousy version of Windows, but it only gets booted once a year) for an evening with TaxCut. Sure, I could mess with WINE, but why bother when it would mean putting a few more bucks into the pocket of a company that doesn't seem to really care about it's customers, or the direction of the industry, anymore?
TaxCut may even work with WINE, but since that's the only thing *I* would need WINE for, and I only use it once a year, that's not worth the hassle, either. I'll just wait until some good company fills the void.
So, and until I find another suitable alternative, each year I boot the small partition that holds Win98 (and yes, I know it's a lousy version of Windows, but it only gets booted once a year) for an evening with TaxCut. Sure, I could mess with WINE, but why bother when it would mean putting a few more bucks into the pocket of a company that doesn't seem to really care about it's customers, or the direction of the industry, anymore?
TaxCut may even work with WINE, but since that's the only thing *I* would need WINE for, and I only use it once a year, that's not worth the hassle, either. I'll just wait until some good company fills the void.
When I installed QB 2000, I found a new dll running I hadn't seen prior to the install. A bit of checking revealed that it was a util to allow 16 bit code to run on a 32 bit system. If QB has kept current on Windows...
You know whats annoying ? Hearring over and over again that something is missing for someone to switch to GNU/Linux because of a missing software.
Without word nobody will switch
Without excel nobody will switch
without flash nobody will switch
without 60 000 working software nobody will switch.
"QuickBooks dominates this market."
Really ? they dont have any Gnu/Linux offer but they dominate the GNU/Linux market<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
People dont really care for one app they care for what that app enable them to do , instead of telling people why they aint switching why dont you ask the real question : what is Quickbooks doing that the others dont and can it be made ?
When that new app that does the same as Quickbook and more for much more less money and is available under GNU/Linux so that it can be modified to your licking , then those using Quickbook will make a choice. OR when Microsoft as made them irrelevant by giving away there own version for almost free.
Time is on our side...
Without word nobody will switch
Without excel nobody will switch
without flash nobody will switch
without 60 000 working software nobody will switch.
"QuickBooks dominates this market."
Really ? they dont have any Gnu/Linux offer but they dominate the GNU/Linux market<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
People dont really care for one app they care for what that app enable them to do , instead of telling people why they aint switching why dont you ask the real question : what is Quickbooks doing that the others dont and can it be made ?
When that new app that does the same as Quickbook and more for much more less money and is available under GNU/Linux so that it can be modified to your licking , then those using Quickbook will make a choice. OR when Microsoft as made them irrelevant by giving away there own version for almost free.
Time is on our side...
In other words, it's a training issue as much as
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2004 01:39 AM
If you're trying to shift reality, ok. If not, and you really believe this, you don't have a clue.
Where's Appgen/MyBooks?
Quickbooks simply has not the lion's share of small business accounting, but a monopoly. If Microsoft is a monopoly with 90+% of the market, then so is Quickbooks. Call 10 accountants and find out which ones will take accouting data from MyBooks or GnuCash. Or anything else. Their only answer will by Quickbooks. Or a larger accounting system they are standardized on, for businesses considered larger than small businesses.
You are dead wrong on calling it a training issue, but I understand what you are trying to do. It's not a training issue. It is a market monopoly issue, small businesses, and those accountants that deal with small businesses, only using the one (Q/QP) product.
Quickbooks may have dream market share now, but Intuit, Adobe, Macromedia and others are going to be crushed in the next few years if they don't already have a Linux strategy and aren't actively porting to Linux or at a bare minimum attempting to cut corners by running on Java or some other emulation garbage.
Anyone starting a small business today would be crazy, absolutely crazy, to throw money out the window on licensing fees for desktops, file servers, or other small business servers, unless specific business servers ran specialized applications that were impossible to port to Linux. Larger businesses are a different story. But for small businesses, yesterday it was purchasing one copy of Office and copying it to every desktop in the business. And either not worrying about an audit, or hoping it wouldn't happen. Today it is OpenOffice on windows 98/NT, 2000, and even XP that comes with the box. But no one who plans to stay in business, who plans on being competitive, is going to throw thousands and tens of thousands of dollars away on 10, 20, 30 seat organizations. Unless they are really stupid.
Non-startups? They are even more frugal than start-ups. Because they've made their mistakes already and survived. They run their systems into the ground, and then they find someone to dig out the systems so they can run them into the ground again without wasting money on new hardware or software. I know businesses still using IBM PC/Intel 8086/8088s, 286s, 386s, 486s. They are still using Wordperfect on DOS. Still using the 8088s to run custom written dos programs. Secretaries still using 486s with windows 3.1/3.11.
These business owners, running successful businesses for over 10, 15, 20 years, when faced with hardware that finally dies, aren't going to throw money out the window on MS Office, MS file servers, MS databases. They are going to buy hardware that comes with a MS oem desktop install, then when faced with licensing costs for MS file servers, are either going to run a Linux server with Samba and attempt to get their old desktop software to work, or are going to make the decision to run Linux on the desktop. Most will attempt to go with oem Windows desktop with Samba, but when push comes to shove, they will go with Linux even on the desktop. Let's not forget that the open source databases are porting to windows so more and more windows users are going to be exposed to open source databases, OpenOffice runs on both platforms, Mozilla runs on both platforms, Gimp runs on both platforms, did I read about Scribus going to windows as well recently?
If Intuit doesn't already have a migration strategy in place and underway, they are in serious trouble. Doing something at the last minute won't cut it. Because they are going to find themselves in the same position as Microsoft. They may own the small business segment now, but going forward they will be faced with the prospect of lower market share, revenue shrinkage instead of growth and very angry shareholders, the same position that Microsoft is entering into going forward.
Whatever market share on the desktop IDC or Gartner are reporting, they don't have an actual clue on what the real market share is, or they are afraid to report it accurately. IDC is taking a first step by starting to admit more market share through conversions of existing hardware. What they are really doing is deciding to cover their asses before Gartner because the growth of Linux is simply too massive to cover up any more. In the last 12 months, IDC has done an about face at an accelerating rate when it comes to market share of Linux in both servers and desktops. Gartner isn't there yet, but that's to be expected. The one thing they can't erase is the memory of the internet. Their past statements on Linux are going to be real howlers, real wall hangers next year and further into the future (save the DiDiot and Winderle quotes as wall hangers as well). And Intuit, Adobe, Macromedia, and other naysayers are going to be the roadkill that the Linux juggernaut rolled right over. Unless they act now.
Some people actually believe that you can lose money on every sale and make it up in volume. Those are the same people that believe that Windows has a lower total cost of ownership. Just one <A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/5s48h" title="tinyurl.com">response</a tinyurl.com>. Actual user experiences will illuminate the truth.
Where's Appgen/MyBooks?
Quickbooks simply has not the lion's share of small business accounting, but a monopoly. If Microsoft is a monopoly with 90+% of the market, then so is Quickbooks. Call 10 accountants and find out which ones will take accouting data from MyBooks or GnuCash. Or anything else. Their only answer will by Quickbooks. Or a larger accounting system they are standardized on, for businesses considered larger than small businesses.
You are dead wrong on calling it a training issue, but I understand what you are trying to do. It's not a training issue. It is a market monopoly issue, small businesses, and those accountants that deal with small businesses, only using the one (Q/QP) product.
Quickbooks may have dream market share now, but Intuit, Adobe, Macromedia and others are going to be crushed in the next few years if they don't already have a Linux strategy and aren't actively porting to Linux or at a bare minimum attempting to cut corners by running on Java or some other emulation garbage.
Anyone starting a small business today would be crazy, absolutely crazy, to throw money out the window on licensing fees for desktops, file servers, or other small business servers, unless specific business servers ran specialized applications that were impossible to port to Linux. Larger businesses are a different story. But for small businesses, yesterday it was purchasing one copy of Office and copying it to every desktop in the business. And either not worrying about an audit, or hoping it wouldn't happen. Today it is OpenOffice on windows 98/NT, 2000, and even XP that comes with the box. But no one who plans to stay in business, who plans on being competitive, is going to throw thousands and tens of thousands of dollars away on 10, 20, 30 seat organizations. Unless they are really stupid.
Non-startups? They are even more frugal than start-ups. Because they've made their mistakes already and survived. They run their systems into the ground, and then they find someone to dig out the systems so they can run them into the ground again without wasting money on new hardware or software. I know businesses still using IBM PC/Intel 8086/8088s, 286s, 386s, 486s. They are still using Wordperfect on DOS. Still using the 8088s to run custom written dos programs. Secretaries still using 486s with windows 3.1/3.11.
These business owners, running successful businesses for over 10, 15, 20 years, when faced with hardware that finally dies, aren't going to throw money out the window on MS Office, MS file servers, MS databases. They are going to buy hardware that comes with a MS oem desktop install, then when faced with licensing costs for MS file servers, are either going to run a Linux server with Samba and attempt to get their old desktop software to work, or are going to make the decision to run Linux on the desktop. Most will attempt to go with oem Windows desktop with Samba, but when push comes to shove, they will go with Linux even on the desktop. Let's not forget that the open source databases are porting to windows so more and more windows users are going to be exposed to open source databases, OpenOffice runs on both platforms, Mozilla runs on both platforms, Gimp runs on both platforms, did I read about Scribus going to windows as well recently?
If Intuit doesn't already have a migration strategy in place and underway, they are in serious trouble. Doing something at the last minute won't cut it. Because they are going to find themselves in the same position as Microsoft. They may own the small business segment now, but going forward they will be faced with the prospect of lower market share, revenue shrinkage instead of growth and very angry shareholders, the same position that Microsoft is entering into going forward.
Whatever market share on the desktop IDC or Gartner are reporting, they don't have an actual clue on what the real market share is, or they are afraid to report it accurately. IDC is taking a first step by starting to admit more market share through conversions of existing hardware. What they are really doing is deciding to cover their asses before Gartner because the growth of Linux is simply too massive to cover up any more. In the last 12 months, IDC has done an about face at an accelerating rate when it comes to market share of Linux in both servers and desktops. Gartner isn't there yet, but that's to be expected. The one thing they can't erase is the memory of the internet. Their past statements on Linux are going to be real howlers, real wall hangers next year and further into the future (save the DiDiot and Winderle quotes as wall hangers as well). And Intuit, Adobe, Macromedia, and other naysayers are going to be the roadkill that the Linux juggernaut rolled right over. Unless they act now.
Some people actually believe that you can lose money on every sale and make it up in volume. Those are the same people that believe that Windows has a lower total cost of ownership. Just one <A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/5s48h" title="tinyurl.com">response</a tinyurl.com>. Actual user experiences will illuminate the truth.
Re:In other words, it's a training issue as much a
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2004 12:13 PM
Quickbooks may have dream market share now, but Intuit, Adobe, Macromedia and others are going to be crushed in the next few years if they don't already have a Linux strategy and aren't actively porting to Linux or at a bare minimum attempting to cut corners by running on Java or some other emulation garbage.
The reader fails to understand how crucial money is to a business. Lotus 123 was the killer app that made PC's popular in businesses, but now Quickbooks is really the killer app for small businesses. It makes accounting accessible to the small businessman, and kills any alternative that doesn't run it. Intuit is the pillar that holds up the Micro$oft world in small businesses. And that world won't fall to Linux until Intuit makes a change. Intuit doesn't have to change. And I have no doubt that M$ will do everything it can to keep them from changing, too. Quickbooks may well be the killer app that keeps Linux at bay for a long time.
quickbooks pro 99 is running fine with crossover here. One of the reasons I will not update quickbooks is because there is no linux version. We will move over to sql-ledger, with paid support for sql-ledger, rather then pay for a quickbooks upgrade.
quickbooks is easy to learn and does a good job
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2004 02:33 AM
Quickbooks is successful because it is good, and because it meets customer's needs. I've been testing various F/OSS accounting programs for several years, looking for a good quickbooks replacement. Nothing comes even close. A typical Quickbooks user is a small businessperson who does almost everything- all the paperwork, marketing, and the actual paying work. The data entry is the most tedious part- everything else can be done with a mouse click or two. You're not going to persuade this person to give up a good product that meets their needs without some extremely compelling reasons. If the alternative is something with too steep a learning curve, forget it, because the one thing in short supply with most small businesspeople is time. They're not stupid and they're not lazy. They're busy.
Something that many F/OSS advocates don't seem to be able to grasp is how to target a particular audience. Quickbooks users are not users who can afford to hire someone to customize their accounting program and train them. Even in the windoze world, higher-end accounting programs cost thousands of dollars and require a lot of training. Those are the ones that F/OSS has a real chance of replacing, with many advantages: open code, so no chance of sneaky stuff. Secure platform. Endlessly customizable. Open data formats, so customer data are not held hostage.
To really make a dent in the Quickbooks market means building something that is just as easy to use, and with bales of nice features like Quickbooks has. And much lower cost than Quickbooks, which is already dirt cheap by accounting software standards.
Something that many F/OSS advocates don't seem to be able to grasp is how to target a particular audience. Quickbooks users are not users who can afford to hire someone to customize their accounting program and train them. Even in the windoze world, higher-end accounting programs cost thousands of dollars and require a lot of training. Those are the ones that F/OSS has a real chance of replacing, with many advantages: open code, so no chance of sneaky stuff. Secure platform. Endlessly customizable. Open data formats, so customer data are not held hostage.
To really make a dent in the Quickbooks market means building something that is just as easy to use, and with bales of nice features like Quickbooks has. And much lower cost than Quickbooks, which is already dirt cheap by accounting software standards.
Having owned a small business for years (and used quickbooks), I would be very hesitant to try anything that risked (even in the smallest way) screwing up my bookkeeping. The pain and suffering that could result is just way too much to bear.
Alternative's to Intuit's products are not an option. I haven't tried gnucash nor will I. It wouldn't matter. Any replacement for Quickbooks would have to be a Intuit sold and supported. If Intuit offered a linux version that was identical in operation and functionality to its windows version then I might switch in order to save the windows os tax. At the very least, I would consider it.
I use codeweavers (on slackware) at home with quicken. It works ok but does have a few display glitches. I backup daily and have verified that the backed up files can be restored to a windows box OK (just in case). I have been doing it for 6 months and I'm still nervous about it.
So there you have it. Quickbooks is deeply entrenched. There would have to be a very compelling reason to get me to switch. Saving a couple of hundred dollars a year doesn't come close.
That's not even on my list of reasons why I use Quicken and Quickbooks. I don't trust Intuit at all. Their support is poo, and it seems you have already forgotten the TurboTax spyware fiasco. I use them because of the short learning curve and clean interfaces. And I keep them on a PC that is not connected to the Internet. When I find a good F/OSS alternative, I'm dropping Intuit products like hot potatoes.
You are 100% correct that people are very careful about messing with their bookkeeping, which is something developers better take into account if they really want to provide something to draw people away from Quickbooks.
You are 100% correct that people are very careful about messing with their bookkeeping, which is something developers better take into account if they really want to provide something to draw people away from Quickbooks.
it would be easy for Intuit to get almost every popular commercial Linux distribution to include trial versions of their products in return for commissions on each software sale
Great, now we get our distros bloated with the same channel partner time-out-ware that plogs a new Dell or other commercial PC. No thanks.
CrossOver 4.1 claims better support for Quicken and Quick Books.
My church is looking for help with bookkeeping and asked me to help on the technical side. They are using Quickbooks so I began to look for ways to get Quickbooks for my systems. Last year I made the decision to not use Windows on my computers (except for my toddlers' games on a non-networked PC that runs Win98; screw "firewall" -- this thing's in solitary confinement). Could Intuit help me?
Turns out, maybe. I also have an iBook G4 and there is one version of Quickbooks (Pro) that runs on Mac OS X. Question now is, will I be able to work on the datafile between computers (we're sneaker-netting the datafile for now)? I'll find out this weekend.
The list of must-haves keeping people tied to Windows are diminishing.
So, I'm glad that there may be a way to proceed with CodeWeaver. I guess I'll buy that along with a license to Quickbooks Pro for Windows and try it out, if things don't work with the Mac OS X version (an accountant friend says there are "issues" with the Mac/PC data exchange for Quickbooks -- sad if true).
BTW, The only reason the online edition won't work on non-Windows boxes is that the online edition requires ActiveX. Well, heck. GMail has a rich user interface and uses ActiveX for Win/IE, but works great with Mozilla and Safari using plain-old JavaScript. Even if I did use Windows I ***would**not*** use InternetExposer. And, if I did use IE, you bet hyperActiveX would be shut off. At some point Intuit needs to intuit that ActiveX is unnecessary and part of a dangerous software engineering mistake.
Turns out, maybe. I also have an iBook G4 and there is one version of Quickbooks (Pro) that runs on Mac OS X. Question now is, will I be able to work on the datafile between computers (we're sneaker-netting the datafile for now)? I'll find out this weekend.
The list of must-haves keeping people tied to Windows are diminishing.
So, I'm glad that there may be a way to proceed with CodeWeaver. I guess I'll buy that along with a license to Quickbooks Pro for Windows and try it out, if things don't work with the Mac OS X version (an accountant friend says there are "issues" with the Mac/PC data exchange for Quickbooks -- sad if true).
BTW, The only reason the online edition won't work on non-Windows boxes is that the online edition requires ActiveX. Well, heck. GMail has a rich user interface and uses ActiveX for Win/IE, but works great with Mozilla and Safari using plain-old JavaScript. Even if I did use Windows I ***would**not*** use InternetExposer. And, if I did use IE, you bet hyperActiveX would be shut off. At some point Intuit needs to intuit that ActiveX is unnecessary and part of a dangerous software engineering mistake.
Difference is that I have no Apple hardware.
I'm currently looking at using VMWare to virtualize the Win98 system at the church with new hardware and then turning the old one into a terminal.
StephenC.
I'm currently looking at using VMWare to virtualize the Win98 system at the church with new hardware and then turning the old one into a terminal.
StephenC.
I believe this is the way to go too. Thin client terminals for common office applications and a virtualized windows for stuff that not everyone in the company uses.
Vince
Vince
For many years I've used Quicken and TurboTax. My final switch to Linux is being hampered by these two applications not being ported.
I'd gladly pay to replace my Quicken 2002 with a Linux version. Yet Intuit still supports Mac instead which now has a leesor market share.
Wonder when they will wake up?
I'd gladly pay to replace my Quicken 2002 with a Linux version. Yet Intuit still supports Mac instead which now has a leesor market share.
Wonder when they will wake up?
I found myself in a similar position. I'm a typical home user, although I don't use my computer to play games, and Quicken is my most used program. I began using Linux nearly 3 years ago.
Initially I dual booted between Win 98 and Linux. My Linux experience quickly proved how much better an operating system it was compared to Windows. To solve the dual boot issue, I eventually purchased Win4Lin for running Quicken 99, Quicken Financial Planner, Tax Act, and Lotus Smartsuite.
This worked wonderfully for 2 years until my Quicken 99 environment made Win4Lin/Win98 unstable. I had experienced this same kind of crashing problem under pure Win98 before going to Win4Lin.
In a moment of desperation, I tried my unused copy of Quicken 2002 under the trial version of CrossOver 4.0, and the results were more than acceptable. I've upgraded to the full version of CrossOver and am once again a happy Linux convert.
I would gladly purchase from Intuit a native Linux version of Quicken. A Linux version of TurboTax would get me back as a tax software customer once again. But as Robin has experienced, Intuit has completely ignored my suggestions to port their products to Linux. Consequently, I see little reason to purchase ANY of Intuit's current or future products and will just continue to use the software I have. GNU/Linux (Libranet), Win4Lin, and CrossOver more than meets my home desktop needs!
Initially I dual booted between Win 98 and Linux. My Linux experience quickly proved how much better an operating system it was compared to Windows. To solve the dual boot issue, I eventually purchased Win4Lin for running Quicken 99, Quicken Financial Planner, Tax Act, and Lotus Smartsuite.
This worked wonderfully for 2 years until my Quicken 99 environment made Win4Lin/Win98 unstable. I had experienced this same kind of crashing problem under pure Win98 before going to Win4Lin.
In a moment of desperation, I tried my unused copy of Quicken 2002 under the trial version of CrossOver 4.0, and the results were more than acceptable. I've upgraded to the full version of CrossOver and am once again a happy Linux convert.
I would gladly purchase from Intuit a native Linux version of Quicken. A Linux version of TurboTax would get me back as a tax software customer once again. But as Robin has experienced, Intuit has completely ignored my suggestions to port their products to Linux. Consequently, I see little reason to purchase ANY of Intuit's current or future products and will just continue to use the software I have. GNU/Linux (Libranet), Win4Lin, and CrossOver more than meets my home desktop needs!
I switched to Linux when Microsoft introduced DRM (Dick your customers with Restrictions on their Merriment).
I switched to Tax Cut when Turbo Tax introduced DRM.
Never going back to the software I have left in the dust.
I switched to Tax Cut when Turbo Tax introduced DRM.
Never going back to the software I have left in the dust.
I would have to disagree with you on this one. Although I dislike DRM as much as you do, I WOULD go back to TurboTax if there was a native Linux version. Personally, I don't expect to see that happening, so I assume I will continue to purchase Tax Act by 2nd Story Software. Now THESE are the guys I would really love to see sell a native Linux version of their products.
Of course, as upstanding taxpayers, I think we should DEMAND that the IRS provide free copies of Linux tax software so we can meet our yearly obligation.
Of course, as upstanding taxpayers, I think we should DEMAND that the IRS provide free copies of Linux tax software so we can meet our yearly obligation.
You need to read Intuit's financial statements a little more closely. They are hardly "operating in the red" and are, in fact, quite profitable. Annual profits exceeded $300 million last year. They traditionally lose money in two quarters, and make it up in two others when tax season hits. Your arguments will carry more weight if you do better research.
Because your stats make it seem fairly apparent that Intuit is losing money on QuickBooks and their bottom line is being subsidized by their tax software.
How much effort do you expect Intuit to put into "innovating" and porting a losing product?
How much effort do you expect Intuit to put into "innovating" and porting a losing product?
Intuit loses money only in the 3rd and 4th quarters. They have their big revenue in the 1st and 2nd quarters, during tax season. On an annual basis, they netted over $317 million for 2004.
Think about what you are really saying....
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 18, 2004 02:00 AM
If Intuit is in the red except for sales during tax season then that lends credence to the idea that Intuit is being propped up by TurboTax sales -- and that Quicken/QuickBooks is a drag on the company's bottom line. Products that lose money usually don't get the same backing from management as the winners.
Intuit needs to take a good look at their roadmap for the future.
Intuit needs to take a good look at their roadmap for the future.
For my purposes, the most compelling issue concerning accounting software is retaining control over my accounting data.
The software industry is subject to constant change. I want to be in a position to go to another vendor if the software I've been using no longer meets my needs. That consideration purely excludes proprietary data formats such as the one used by QuickBooks.
If you don't want to be held hostage by a single vendor, don't put them in the position of being the gatekeeper to your data.
The software industry is subject to constant change. I want to be in a position to go to another vendor if the software I've been using no longer meets my needs. That consideration purely excludes proprietary data formats such as the one used by QuickBooks.
If you don't want to be held hostage by a single vendor, don't put them in the position of being the gatekeeper to your data.
Linux and QuickBooks all in one sentence.
Quickbooks was Platinum replacement for...
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2004 12:00 PM
Quickbooks was Platinum replacement for...
A small manufactuing firm that I did data for for along time. Platinum had huge support prices, huge problems with their software (sucks), and the folks that installed it were there all the time to do this and that to it. SO - Platinum went out with the trash and in came the Quickbooks Manufacturing and Warehouse version. They loved it.
AND Quickbooks has the developer network. This allows developers to create add-ons like EDI etc to work with Quickbooks.
Integrated Payroll is one big reason. Wonderful Reports in another reason. Ease of training and use. A high school near here uses Quickbooks in the business classes and the students can access it and do their homework from home via a Citrix Server Farm that allows folks with a $9.00 dial up interent account to hit the server and boom, they type papers, do Quickbooks, and all kinds of stuff. We threw the 3rd party proprietary application develper out the door two years ago and replaced it all with Quickbooks... YOU can HIRE Quickbooks trained folks from EVERYWHERE.
Training is the issue.
Intuit could not only go with building a LINUX application... Intuit could build their OWN LINUX distro! Quickbooks, OpenOffice, and all the goodies built in and still only charge for the Quickbooks fee. It would be a winner.
We really do love the payroll feature that Quickbooks has...and our accountant takes a CD with the Quickbook files and does all the taxes from that! It's a win-win. The only problem with it is that Quickbooks is hooked to Microsoft!
I Love LINUX
I also love Quickbooks.
Small business is not going to drop Microsoft/Quickbooks combo on the desktop for Linux any day soon... You can run a applicataion server with a MS server to rdesktop on LINUX OR with Tarantella, or NoMachine.com !
Now that will work... but, the cost has has to be low! AND Dell has to sell it as an feature out of the box! Lot's of Dell boxes in small business locations.
A small manufactuing firm that I did data for for along time. Platinum had huge support prices, huge problems with their software (sucks), and the folks that installed it were there all the time to do this and that to it. SO - Platinum went out with the trash and in came the Quickbooks Manufacturing and Warehouse version. They loved it.
AND Quickbooks has the developer network. This allows developers to create add-ons like EDI etc to work with Quickbooks.
Integrated Payroll is one big reason. Wonderful Reports in another reason. Ease of training and use. A high school near here uses Quickbooks in the business classes and the students can access it and do their homework from home via a Citrix Server Farm that allows folks with a $9.00 dial up interent account to hit the server and boom, they type papers, do Quickbooks, and all kinds of stuff. We threw the 3rd party proprietary application develper out the door two years ago and replaced it all with Quickbooks... YOU can HIRE Quickbooks trained folks from EVERYWHERE.
Training is the issue.
Intuit could not only go with building a LINUX application... Intuit could build their OWN LINUX distro! Quickbooks, OpenOffice, and all the goodies built in and still only charge for the Quickbooks fee. It would be a winner.
We really do love the payroll feature that Quickbooks has...and our accountant takes a CD with the Quickbook files and does all the taxes from that! It's a win-win. The only problem with it is that Quickbooks is hooked to Microsoft!
I Love LINUX
I also love Quickbooks.
Small business is not going to drop Microsoft/Quickbooks combo on the desktop for Linux any day soon... You can run a applicataion server with a MS server to rdesktop on LINUX OR with Tarantella, or NoMachine.com !
Now that will work... but, the cost has has to be low! AND Dell has to sell it as an feature out of the box! Lot's of Dell boxes in small business locations.
Re:Quickbooks was Platinum replacement for...
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2004 02:32 PM
So why wouldn't you use something like <A HREF="http://www.win4lin.com/" title="win4lin.com">Win4Lin</a win4lin.com>. If you are just worrying about that one application and you can move otherwise, for god sakes man, shell out the $90 bucks run your Quickbooks and get on with life. Why are so many people inamoured with Wine. I mean it's good when it works but why the heck do people just through up their hands and say well game over it doesn't work. The president of the company can't even get behind his product it's too hard. Do you really want to trust your financials to something that comes in third with Bronze support and the guy who runs the company says,"Yeah, it has support to do it right". Give me a break.
Win4Lin? Sorry, Latest Quickbooks only 2000 &
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2004 08:11 PM
Win4Lin is only for 95,98, & DOS.
Tried to load latest Quickbooks on NT4 and it said no. Intuit Support said no... must be W2000 or greater!
Sorry, but that WAS once upon a time a good idea.
VMWare will work... but, for small business the whole VMWare conept is too much technology for the average user that is employed? Mom and Pop business where MOM and POP are how old (Grandma and GrandPa)! And the nice lady who likes to work at the business but really does have a problem with understanding software. Quickbooks with the easy to follow windows (and sorry to those who do GNUCash...but, NO double entry logic needed to do Quickbooks)!
Tried to load latest Quickbooks on NT4 and it said no. Intuit Support said no... must be W2000 or greater!
Sorry, but that WAS once upon a time a good idea.
VMWare will work... but, for small business the whole VMWare conept is too much technology for the average user that is employed? Mom and Pop business where MOM and POP are how old (Grandma and GrandPa)! And the nice lady who likes to work at the business but really does have a problem with understanding software. Quickbooks with the easy to follow windows (and sorry to those who do GNUCash...but, NO double entry logic needed to do Quickbooks)!
MS Publisher does not run under WINE either!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2004 08:36 PM
WINE does not provide GOLD level support Microsoft Publisher 2000. Codeweavers does not either!
MS Publisher is part of the SMALL BUSINESS version of Microsoft Office (and part of MS Office Pro as well)!
How can Codeweavers or WINE claim to be MS OFFICE compatible when they have ignored MS Publisher as a OFFICE (included out of the box) application?
I know of many small businesses that do all their advertising and printer needs on Publisher. The local printer has Apple... but, also had to buy a Microsoft Publisher capability in order to accept the large number of requests from MS Publisher users to be able to do the Print Jobs that MS Publisher does. Adobe Acrobat 6.0 for Windows allows Publisher files to be converted to PDF format for sending a brochure to some one in that readable format!
The WORLD's Easiest WEB SITE creation tool (for small business user who already knows there FREE with MS OFFICE - MS Publisher) is MS Publisher!
MS Publisher's Web Site creation WIZARD can create a nice web site in just a few minutes. It's "What You See Is What You Get" is indeed the best I have ever seen! I have mentioned this to web site developers and they don't know a thing about it. Even those who preach about "other MS tools for Web Site development don't know anything about it.
The small business user who uses MS Publisher and Quickbooks<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... has no other option but Microsoft. Wine, and any other LINUX application just is not as easy to use, and as feature full as these TWO applications!
This is a fact, I don't like Microsft since the original MS Small Business Server came out and for thousands of dollars, and a requirement that a Small business that had 3 employees get a 5 user license, AND the thing didn't work, and the upgrade to4.5 was no better (and didn't have any support for anti-virus to work on it for years), well - MS really did not think of the user at all! They took money and offered no refund for the crap they were selling.
Linux and it's applications need to work OR WINE needs to be able to get some major KEY applications working (other than a word processor and a spread sheet), for small business to migrate.
The other day... a business I know, exported their client list to MS ACCESS, with a wizard built a list of folks they wanted to sent a Holiday Greetings card out to, and within 1 hour was printing the addresses on the HP5 Laser printer. The other side of the card was made with MS Publisher, sent to the printer, and they printed the address side themselves (with some marketing there as well), and then ran the cards by hand thru their postage machine.
Linux has nothing that is that easy to use in even Open Office, or even Star Office. There is no Quickbooks, equal, NO MS Publisher equal, no MS ACCESS and MS WORD mail merge equal, in any LINUX product to date!
MS Publisher is part of the SMALL BUSINESS version of Microsoft Office (and part of MS Office Pro as well)!
How can Codeweavers or WINE claim to be MS OFFICE compatible when they have ignored MS Publisher as a OFFICE (included out of the box) application?
I know of many small businesses that do all their advertising and printer needs on Publisher. The local printer has Apple... but, also had to buy a Microsoft Publisher capability in order to accept the large number of requests from MS Publisher users to be able to do the Print Jobs that MS Publisher does. Adobe Acrobat 6.0 for Windows allows Publisher files to be converted to PDF format for sending a brochure to some one in that readable format!
The WORLD's Easiest WEB SITE creation tool (for small business user who already knows there FREE with MS OFFICE - MS Publisher) is MS Publisher!
MS Publisher's Web Site creation WIZARD can create a nice web site in just a few minutes. It's "What You See Is What You Get" is indeed the best I have ever seen! I have mentioned this to web site developers and they don't know a thing about it. Even those who preach about "other MS tools for Web Site development don't know anything about it.
The small business user who uses MS Publisher and Quickbooks<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... has no other option but Microsoft. Wine, and any other LINUX application just is not as easy to use, and as feature full as these TWO applications!
This is a fact, I don't like Microsft since the original MS Small Business Server came out and for thousands of dollars, and a requirement that a Small business that had 3 employees get a 5 user license, AND the thing didn't work, and the upgrade to4.5 was no better (and didn't have any support for anti-virus to work on it for years), well - MS really did not think of the user at all! They took money and offered no refund for the crap they were selling.
Linux and it's applications need to work OR WINE needs to be able to get some major KEY applications working (other than a word processor and a spread sheet), for small business to migrate.
The other day... a business I know, exported their client list to MS ACCESS, with a wizard built a list of folks they wanted to sent a Holiday Greetings card out to, and within 1 hour was printing the addresses on the HP5 Laser printer. The other side of the card was made with MS Publisher, sent to the printer, and they printed the address side themselves (with some marketing there as well), and then ran the cards by hand thru their postage machine.
Linux has nothing that is that easy to use in even Open Office, or even Star Office. There is no Quickbooks, equal, NO MS Publisher equal, no MS ACCESS and MS WORD mail merge equal, in any LINUX product to date!
Re:MS Publisher does not run under WINE either!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 18, 2004 01:48 AM
WHY do you TALK in such a STRANGE manner? Are you AUDITIONING to be a game show HOST?
You ARE the second MICROSOFT Publisher user I'VE ever MET IN 10+ YEARS of helpdesk experience. PERHAPS it IS because I've worked for FORTUNE 100 COMPANIES and not SMALL ones.
AND the previous comment is CORRECT. You HAVE a funny method of WRITING. Hopefully you WEREN'T the ONE who did the LABELS.
AND the previous comment is CORRECT. You HAVE a funny method of WRITING. Hopefully you WEREN'T the ONE who did the LABELS.
However, the point is correct... Publisher works!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 18, 2004 10:17 AM
When you can't attack the message, you attack the one who delivers the message.
Your comments do not distract from the fact. I have done data for over 20 years with mostly small business, built servers, been certified with Citrix, Microsoft OEM, etc.
Note: There was a Windows Publisher for the Windows 3.11 and there is one now for the newest OS version as well. All those users upgrading and using Pubisher do add up quickly and are ignored by the ignorant.
Maybe you need to look at this from the angle of a small business buyer of a Dell or HP/Compaq system. You get the MS Operating system by default, and have an option of getting an OEM version of MS Office for a huge discount off of the retail version. So, you get the cheaperOEM software Office for Small Business bundled with the PC (never mind that the OEM version dies when your computer dies).
Then you start to play with the applications. You notice Publisher just as you start to figure out that you now know that you can run a mouse. You build greeting cards, brochures, Signs, etc and a web page with Publisher. Why, because it on your computer.
OR - you buy Publisher from the shelf where you will find it located on every single software computer store shelf that exists! CompUSA, Staples, etc... you will find it. Now, add all those users up and you will understand why the local printer that runs a print shop for small business down the road, that ran Apple computers, had to go out to get the Publisher part. The customers demanded it (and it is a pretty inexpensive program)!
Small business uses MS publisher. I have not run into many that did not use it in some way. Guess what? Publisher files to not port over to any other format.
<A HREF="http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/biztools/article.php/3069501" title="smallbusin...puting.com">Review of MS publisher 2003 for your interest and your education</a smallbusin...puting.com>
Thank you!
Your comments do not distract from the fact. I have done data for over 20 years with mostly small business, built servers, been certified with Citrix, Microsoft OEM, etc.
Note: There was a Windows Publisher for the Windows 3.11 and there is one now for the newest OS version as well. All those users upgrading and using Pubisher do add up quickly and are ignored by the ignorant.
Maybe you need to look at this from the angle of a small business buyer of a Dell or HP/Compaq system. You get the MS Operating system by default, and have an option of getting an OEM version of MS Office for a huge discount off of the retail version. So, you get the cheaperOEM software Office for Small Business bundled with the PC (never mind that the OEM version dies when your computer dies).
Then you start to play with the applications. You notice Publisher just as you start to figure out that you now know that you can run a mouse. You build greeting cards, brochures, Signs, etc and a web page with Publisher. Why, because it on your computer.
OR - you buy Publisher from the shelf where you will find it located on every single software computer store shelf that exists! CompUSA, Staples, etc... you will find it. Now, add all those users up and you will understand why the local printer that runs a print shop for small business down the road, that ran Apple computers, had to go out to get the Publisher part. The customers demanded it (and it is a pretty inexpensive program)!
Small business uses MS publisher. I have not run into many that did not use it in some way. Guess what? Publisher files to not port over to any other format.
<A HREF="http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/biztools/article.php/3069501" title="smallbusin...puting.com">Review of MS publisher 2003 for your interest and your education</a smallbusin...puting.com>
Thank you!
The top post touts the wonders of Publisher. Whoopee.
I disagree with its summary, I think there are plenty of easy to use applications for Linux, OpenOffice being one of them.
You and the top poster seem to feel that MS Publisher is important, is widely used, can do almost everything, and etc.
I disagree. I think MS Publisher is small potatoes, even if you only compare it to MS Office usage of Word, Excel, and MS Access to do many of the same things as MS Publisher.
As you said, Publisher files to not port over to any other format. Thanks for the warning! I'll be sure to advice people to not get trapped by MS Publisher lock-in.
I disagree with its summary, I think there are plenty of easy to use applications for Linux, OpenOffice being one of them.
You and the top poster seem to feel that MS Publisher is important, is widely used, can do almost everything, and etc.
I disagree. I think MS Publisher is small potatoes, even if you only compare it to MS Office usage of Word, Excel, and MS Access to do many of the same things as MS Publisher.
As you said, Publisher files to not port over to any other format. Thanks for the warning! I'll be sure to advice people to not get trapped by MS Publisher lock-in.
Re:However, the point is correct... Publisher work
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 21, 2004 03:35 AM
Hmmm. Lets do some quick web browsing at Dell....
You get the MS Operating system by default, and have an option of getting an OEM version of MS Office... So, you get the cheaperOEM software Office for Small Business...
So, you recommend I should spend an extra $265.95 to get MS Office 2003 Small Business Edition instead of supplies or a more basic version of MS Office. Maybe because of some kind of expected productivity trade-off?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...never mind that the OEM version dies when your computer dies...
Whoa Nellie! I shouldn't have to repurchase the software with every computer just so that I can keep my office running. Let see what you recommend:
buy Publisher from the shelf where you will find it located on every single software computer store shelf that exists! CompUSA, Staples, etc...
OK, quick check at CompUSA's website: only a measly $499.99. Almost the cost of a new PC. You know, you're making me less and less excited here.
Small business uses MS publisher.
Maybe in some areas. I don't know of any that do, since there is plenty of other software to do the same thing. Just a basic version of MS Office and some custom styles will let you do most of what you need. Add Quickbooks or something similar and you are 9/10ths done.
Guess what? Publisher files to not port over to any other format.
Why do you sound so happy? Do you work for MS or something? You just lost me.
Vendor lock-in for a cheap $500 introductory price. No.... I think I will go with $500 towards another PC and use OpenOffice. The Windows version makes a simple drop-in MS Office replacement for free.
Review of MS publisher 2003 for your interest...
The Rodney Dangerfield of software is an appropriate description. This sotware doesn't deserve my respect.
You get the MS Operating system by default, and have an option of getting an OEM version of MS Office... So, you get the cheaperOEM software Office for Small Business...
So, you recommend I should spend an extra $265.95 to get MS Office 2003 Small Business Edition instead of supplies or a more basic version of MS Office. Maybe because of some kind of expected productivity trade-off?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...never mind that the OEM version dies when your computer dies...
Whoa Nellie! I shouldn't have to repurchase the software with every computer just so that I can keep my office running. Let see what you recommend:
buy Publisher from the shelf where you will find it located on every single software computer store shelf that exists! CompUSA, Staples, etc...
OK, quick check at CompUSA's website: only a measly $499.99. Almost the cost of a new PC. You know, you're making me less and less excited here.
Small business uses MS publisher.
Maybe in some areas. I don't know of any that do, since there is plenty of other software to do the same thing. Just a basic version of MS Office and some custom styles will let you do most of what you need. Add Quickbooks or something similar and you are 9/10ths done.
Guess what? Publisher files to not port over to any other format.
Why do you sound so happy? Do you work for MS or something? You just lost me.
Vendor lock-in for a cheap $500 introductory price. No.... I think I will go with $500 towards another PC and use OpenOffice. The Windows version makes a simple drop-in MS Office replacement for free.
Review of MS publisher 2003 for your interest...
The Rodney Dangerfield of software is an appropriate description. This sotware doesn't deserve my respect.
I wonder if it would work with CrossOver Office and IE6.0?
There are some good reasons for not moving to Linux and abandoning quickbooks. However I'll name just one - it is certified. Government contracts, accounting companies, they all want you to use certified software and not "Bob's software", even if it is superior. They are lazy, they know QB works and what it doesn't do so nicely. Bob's spreadsheet or software, they have to look at every figure.
Moving to Linux would be hard for QB. If you have a current version (I have had QB for many years), they use IE to do stuff. They also exploit a number of bugs in IE. No IE for Linux, tough port! Another pain in the butt is the software I use to make checks won't run correctly under wine, or even vmware. Checks the bios. Can't write checks, I'm done!
Any suggestions on having just one MS box running Quickbooks and VNC'ing or some other remote control program to Linux boxen?
The problem with Linux apps like sql-ledger that I have looked at is that they attempt to be enterprise software, not small business software. They run everything through sales and purchase journals and a/p and a/r. Small business run their daily accounting like a cash basis business, even if they adjust to accrual for year end and tax reporting. This keeps it simple for them.
For small business you need a glorified checkbook. It needs to have a register like QB because that is what users are spoiled with. You need to have multiple bank accounts, easy check writing, account reconciliation and account maintenance.
A long time ago I got off the QB, payroll driven, forced upgrade treadmill. Mostly because I am thick-headed. Maybe because I remember when accounting software gave you the option of buying payroll table updates or updating the tables yourself. I get along fine without QB payroll. But, apparently a lot of users "need" it.
I am a CPA. I hate QB, but I am forced to deal with it because so many clients use it. I use Linux for my servers and my personal desktop. I am currently stuck with Windows on my work desktops because of apps we use (until I have time to try them under Wine), including our tax prep software, Lacerte, which I am sad to say was acquired by Intuit some years ago.
For a long time I have considered Intuit a M$ butt-buddy that will never run on anything other than M$.
For small business you need a glorified checkbook. It needs to have a register like QB because that is what users are spoiled with. You need to have multiple bank accounts, easy check writing, account reconciliation and account maintenance.
A long time ago I got off the QB, payroll driven, forced upgrade treadmill. Mostly because I am thick-headed. Maybe because I remember when accounting software gave you the option of buying payroll table updates or updating the tables yourself. I get along fine without QB payroll. But, apparently a lot of users "need" it.
I am a CPA. I hate QB, but I am forced to deal with it because so many clients use it. I use Linux for my servers and my personal desktop. I am currently stuck with Windows on my work desktops because of apps we use (until I have time to try them under Wine), including our tax prep software, Lacerte, which I am sad to say was acquired by Intuit some years ago.
For a long time I have considered Intuit a M$ butt-buddy that will never run on anything other than M$.
When we started our small business our CPA warned us against QuickBooks. People like us do far too much damage with it, especially the ones who think they're bookkeepers. And therein lies the problem.
Like security, bookkeeping is a process, not a product. If you don't know the process, the products doesn't matter. We did our best with spreadsheets and such, but the real deal was that none of us were bookkeepers.
We made a lot more money once we hired a (very) part-time bookkeeper and gave her a nice SQL-Ledger installation, with a support account. Yes, she could probably have used QuickBooks without any harm. On the other hand, our distributed small business, with home offices in two states, is easier to handle this way. All the partners can see what's going on without a fuss, and our CPA can give a quick look at our books and make sure they're in good shape before he has to do the taxes.
Like security, bookkeeping is a process, not a product. If you don't know the process, the products doesn't matter. We did our best with spreadsheets and such, but the real deal was that none of us were bookkeepers.
We made a lot more money once we hired a (very) part-time bookkeeper and gave her a nice SQL-Ledger installation, with a support account. Yes, she could probably have used QuickBooks without any harm. On the other hand, our distributed small business, with home offices in two states, is easier to handle this way. All the partners can see what's going on without a fuss, and our CPA can give a quick look at our books and make sure they're in good shape before he has to do the taxes.
In Australia, MYOB appears to have the market place and rightfully so. MYOB dpes everything from small business to Large multi-user enterprise. Austrlian have being blessed/dammed with GST and a complex code set to tell use what atracts GST and what dosen't. I'm a linux professional with a small business and aside from buggy internet banking MYOB is the only app I duel-boot for... To have MYOB in linux where it can call the bank and get an up-to-date tranaction history along with my BPay credit's and e-mail/print my BAS statments to the tax office would be the ultimate account package.
The opensource accounting packages unfortunatly don't have GST ability and makes the account a very bumpy road ( not to mention all sorts of issuing when trying to give it to the accountant), especially since the ATO is comming down hard on small business and doing "unprovoked" audits.
The opensource accounting packages unfortunatly don't have GST ability and makes the account a very bumpy road ( not to mention all sorts of issuing when trying to give it to the accountant), especially since the ATO is comming down hard on small business and doing "unprovoked" audits.
How to knock a big dent in MS
Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 12.159.22.189] on February 17, 2008 11:22 PM
1) IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Sun...along with small businesses and individuals across the country (via the Ron Paul *Money Bomb* line of fund raising), do a flat-out hostile takeover of Intuit. 2) Quickbooks and TurboTax are ported to Unix/Linux under the GPL.
3) IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Sun, etc., build a Linux application server tuned especially to offer up Quickbooks in a Remote Desktop style. 4) Offer said server on an easy to install LiveCD that lets everyone try it out and easily install it. 5) IBM, Sun, etc., make a huge amount of money selling enterprise ready QuickBooks servers. 6) Novell, Red Hat, etc., make a huge amount of money selling QuickBooks support. 7) All the small businesses save a ton of money not having to deal with QuickBooks forced upgrades and other shenanigans. 8) MS certainly isn't going to disappear, but they certainly feel a disturbance in the force -- as if a million people suddenly cried out Freedom!
3) IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Sun, etc., build a Linux application server tuned especially to offer up Quickbooks in a Remote Desktop style. 4) Offer said server on an easy to install LiveCD that lets everyone try it out and easily install it. 5) IBM, Sun, etc., make a huge amount of money selling enterprise ready QuickBooks servers. 6) Novell, Red Hat, etc., make a huge amount of money selling QuickBooks support. 7) All the small businesses save a ton of money not having to deal with QuickBooks forced upgrades and other shenanigans. 8) MS certainly isn't going to disappear, but they certainly feel a disturbance in the force -- as if a million people suddenly cried out Freedom!
Uhh, you just did.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2004 10:42 PMYou just did.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) Seriously, maybe you should have actually asked a coherent and pointed question like: "I am an avid Linux user and have known people who are eager to move their small businesses to Linux. Are there any plans to support QuickBooks under Linux?"
Accounting is a weird animal. It has its own set of rules that only make sense to accountants. One of the weaknesses of OSS is that sometimes nobody will take the time to cater to a specific market. In this respect, closed source will win out. QuickBooks is the perfect example of this. OpenOffice is a little different, because pretty much everyone can understand word processing or spreadsheets. But to get into the guts of accounting can get complicated.
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