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Java fallout: OpenOffice.org 2.0 and the FOSS community
By Bruce Byfield
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March 28, 2005 (9:00:00 AM)
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Several new features of the recently released OpenOffice.org 2.0 beta require a Java Runtime Environment (JRE). Since Java's license is neither free nor open source, a small but vocal minority has responded both strongly and negatively. For instance, when NewsForge recently published a review of the beta, no other feature attracted as much comment. Some groups, including members of the major GNU/Linux distributions, most of whom repackage OpenOffice.org (OOo), have responded by looking for alternatives, often while cursing the project for the extra work it has dumped on them. How did OpenOffice.org come to rely on Java? What problems is it likely to cause? How are GNU/Linux distributions reacting to this change in a key piece of software?
It seems a decision based largely on practical considerations -- and with a disregard for the consequences for both the rest of the free and open source software (FOSS) communities and the future of OpenOffice.org itself.
What has changed?
To understand the issues, it is important to know exactly what functionality depends on Java. As of version 1.1.4, the features that required a JRE were:
- Accessibility tools, such as the Gnopernicus Screen Reader and Magnifier and the GNOME On-Screen Keyboard
- The Report Autopilot
- JDBC driver support for Java-based databases
- XSLT filters
- BeanShell, the Netbeans scripting language, and the Java UNO bridge
- Export filters to the Aportis.doc (.pdb) format for the Palm or Pocket Word (.psw) format for the Pocket PC
While some OpenOffice.org members expressed concern about Java being used at all, most accepted the argument that these features did not affect core functionality, and were of interest to only a small minority of users.
OpenOffice.org leaders are still making this argument about version 2.0. However, in version 2.0, the dependence on Java has grown. In addition to the Java-dependent features in earlier versions, 2.0 requires a JRE for:
- Base, the new Access-like database application
- The media player, which adds movie and sound clips to documents
- Mail merges to e-mail, which also require Java Mail
- All document wizards in Writer
Although some could argue that basic office functionality continues to be unaffected, anyone claiming that most users do not need Java in 2.0 may be stretching the point.
For anyone trying to run the beta without Java, the claim becomes even more strained. Even when version 2.0 is not linked to a JRE, tools that require one are still available on the menu and the only way to know which they are is to try them. When non-Java users do try them, they see an inconsistent variety of warnings. Attempt to build a new database without Java and watch the dialog window close with no explanation. Try to do a mail merge to email and learn that the task requires Java Mail from the standard window rather than a pop-up dialog. Worst of all, select Tools > Macro > Run Macro, and you'll see a warning dialog pop up 16 times before you can continue. Aside from showing that OpenOffice.org badly needs common interface standards for features, these examples strongly suggest that 2.0 was designed with the expectation that most users would enable Java.
Why did OpenOffice.org choose Java?
For many, the observation that Sun Microsystems, the former owner of the OpenOffice.org code and the employer of many OOo's programmers, also owns Java is all the explanation they need for OpenOffice.org's new dependence on Java. Although conspiracy theories abound, more considered criticism suggests that OpenOffice.org is simply predisposed to accept Java solutions because of its connection with Sun. And, even though contributors make their own decisions about what programming language they use, it does seem likely that their habits from other projects would spill over into their OpenOffice.org work in the absence of a specific directive to the contrary.
OpenOffice.org leaders, however, explain the decision in terms of convenience and technical merits. Most of the explanation focuses on Base, the new database application that adds an Access-like interface to HSQLDB, an existing Java database.
Daniel Carrera, community contributor representative on the OpenOffice.org Community Council, says that Base HSQLDB "is the fastest and most feature-complete database available that could be integrated given the very limited resources we have." He adds that OpenOffice.org's C++ core was not altered by the introduction of Base. As a result, Base can easily be replaced later.
Frank Schönheit, a Sun employee who is also the leader of the database project, goes into more detail. "This decision was not because HSQLDB is written in Java," he says, "However, HSQLDB also didn't get penalty points just because of being Java" during planning.
Yet, at the same time, Schönheit defends the use of Java, arguing:
- Java allows more rapid development of components for OpenOffice.org, without struggling with the complexity of OpenOffice.org's C++ build environment.
- Java is mature enough to use for complex tasks.
- To address a common prejudice, Java isn't slow by definition, but Java makes it easy to develop poorly performing code, so developers perhaps need more self-discipline when writing Java code. However, this isn't per se a point against Java.
These merits were apparently strong enough for the database team to ignore its own requirement that the new database be open source. Schönheit notes that OpenOffice.org programmers "are not too concerned about Java being open source or not." Although they would prefer to use code written in C++ over that written in Java -- even if the C++ code was only slightly worse -- they will still use Java if it seems the better solution. "And sometimes, Schönheit adds, "this simply means that there is a Java developer who can spend time on a project, and no C++ developer who can." In the end, Schönheit writes, the important thing is that "OpenOffice.org 2.0 will come with its own database.... That, to us, outnumbers most, if not all, arguments we've heard so far against Java. In this sense, functionality is what matters."
What are the objections to using Java?
Some might argue against Schönheit's characterization of C++ as complex or Java as being not slow. However, technical arguments are in many ways beside the point. Objections to Java tend to be based less on technical merits than on FOSS philosophy on the one hand and the possible consequences for the future of OpenOffice.org on the other.
One of the few technical arguments against OpenOffice.org's use of Java is that it undermines the project's goal to be a cross-platform office suite. Many operating systems currently supported, including FreeBSD and GNU/Linux for the PowerPC, have no official version of Java. Those who wish to use OOo 2.0 on such platforms must use GNU/Linux emulation or work with an often incomplete free Java implementation. Either way, the new requirement places new pressures on the already overworked teams of OpenOffice.org volunteers working on these ports.
Other arguments against using Java focus on the possible consequences for OpenOffice.org itself. Marco Fioretti, journalist and OpenOffice.org volunteer, worries that the increased dependency on Java may destroy the project's credibility, thereby slowing its adaptation. When asked to explain misgivings hinted at on the OOo Discuss list, Fioretti says the abrupt move toward Java undermines claims that OpenOffice.org is a mature platform. Fioretti also points out that, in jurisdictions where requirements for government use require openness, OpenOffice.org may no longer qualify. Corporate managers or lawmakers, Fioretti worries, may conclude that project members "are incompetents who produced OpenOffice.org by pure accident" and wonder, "Can I trust them?"
Just as importantly, the dependence on Java threatens OpenOffice.org's credibility with the rest of the FOSS community. Several anonymous commentators on NewsForge's recent review of the version 2.0 expressed doubts about continuing to use OpenOffice.org. "Maybe I should stop promoting it," one anonymous poster wrote. Several others wished that alternatives such as KOffice, AbiWord, and Gnumeric would develop faster so that they could become full replacements for OpenOffice.org.
Among FOSS contributors, the reaction was much the same. The responses on the debian-openoffice.org, the mailing list for those involved with integrating OpenOffice.org into the Debian distribution, are typical of ones in other pockets of the community. Anders Breindahl, for example, writes, "I find it increasingly worrying that Sun to some extent considers Java to be okay for a free office suite.... I think this makes OpenOffice.org less optimal for the Free Software community." Similarly, in the same discussion, Sam Hiser, the former marketing lead for OpenOffice.org, characterized the change as a "challenge" that the FOSS community must answer with other software that's more compatible with its philosophy.
Such comments suggest that little if any dialog is ocurring between those who decided to use Java and those who object to the decision. Each camp has a focus that is different from the other's. To date, neither seems to have responded to the other side's concerns.
How distributions are responding
The range of possible reactions can already be seen in the responses of leading GNU/Linux distributions. For some, possibly most distributions, it is a non-issue. Slackware does not redistribute OpenOffice.org, and, according to developer Patrick Volkerding, has no interest in doing so. As for the commercial distributions, Michael Meeks, a Novell engineer, notes that SUSE ships with Java already. In the same vein, Mandrake CTO Frédéric Lepied says, "Our download edition will stay free and our commercial edition is bundled with Java."
By contrast, Red Hat and Fedora prefer to build OpenOffice.org with the GNU Compiler for Java (GCJ), which is not only a compiler, but also a free JRE. This was Red Hat's strategy with earlier versions of OpenOffice.org, and Red Hat engineers are attempting to continue it. Caolan Macnamara, a programmer at Red Hat, has reported limited success compiling earlier developer builds of version 2.0. However, GCJ is not yet a complete replacement for official releases of Java, and adding patches makes the strategy painstaking and laborious at best.
Other distributions are awaiting developments with GCJ. Paul de Vrieze, a member of Gentoo's OpenOffice.org team, writes that Gentoo would prefer to use a free implementation of Java such as GCJ, adding that the distribution might decide to build with Java if no other alternative existed. By contrast, Ubuntu would ship with a disabled version if a free build was unavailable. "Ubuntu is committed to the principles of open source development," Matt Zimmerman, Ubuntu project head, writes, "and will not include software in our official distribution which does not meet our licensing guidelines."
At Debian, Chris Hall and René Engelhard, the maintainers for OpenOffice.org packages, are also working with GCJ and following developments. According to Engelhard, they face an added difficulty because the latest version of GCJ and the libgcc1 library are currently in only the unofficial Experimental distribution of Debian. To include OpenOffice.org 2.0 in Debian Unstable, the distribution into which new packages are initially placed, the two maintainers might have to disable all Java-based functionality, as they did for earlier versions. Since Java does not meet the Debian Free Software Guidelines' definition of free software, these are the only options available for including OpenOffice.org in Debian at all.
Conclusion
Overall, reactions seem to split along the open source and free software divide. As Richard Stallman is constantly pointing out, although the two communities can be grouped together for many purposes, their basic orientations are quite different.
Open source advocates support communal development in the belief that it produces superior software to proprietary methods. Free software supporters, however, are chiefly concerned with their philosophical position, and are willing to undergo some inconvenience to stay true to their principles. Broadly speaking, the defenders of OpenOffice.org's new reliance on Java, with their emphasis on results and user convenience, can be lumped into the open source camp. They see the decision as a practical one. In some cases, they are unconcerned whether the decision clashes with principles.
By contrast, the resistance to the reliance on Java tends to come from supporters of the free software position. This camp is actively looking for alternatives, both to Java and to OpenOffice.org. Rather than rely on Java, many members of the free software camp will consider shipping a disabled version of OpenOffice.org. They see the decision as irresponsible and, in extreme cases, as a betrayal.
How these differences in perspective will play out remains uncertain. Among some, they have awakened not just the usual mistrust of Sun Microsystems, OpenOffice.org's main contributor, but a distrust of OpenOffice.org itself. Allowed to continue, in the long term, the lack of communication among the parties could inhibit the spread of OpenOffice.org through lack of cooperation. In fact, given that OpenOffice.org helps to position GNU/Linux and other free operating systems as desktop alternatives, the spread of FOSS in general could be inhibited. Another possibility is one or more forks in the projects, although nobody is prepared yet to go that far.
Meanwhile, no one is talking to anyone else in terms that everybody can understand. The entire community is poorer for it.
Bruce Byfield is a freelance course designer and instructor and a technical journalist.
Bruce Byfield is a computer journalist who writes regularly for Linux.com.
Comments
on Java fallout: OpenOffice.org 2.0 and the FOSS communityNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
I agree, to many Sun advocates have told me how great Sun has been to open source, with thier offering of OpenOffice, which by the way they bought and didn't create themselves. Sun will wield it's corporate power. Thank goodness there are plenty of alternatives to Sun's OpenOffice.
Thank goodness there are plenty of alternatives to Sun's OpenOffice.
The point is that there is no need to search alternatives for OO.o - it can be compiled with Java disabled. It's not even necessary to do a full blown fork IMO - just implement the parts written in Java with e.g. Python and keep using the Sun codebase for the C++ code. Or use GCJ.
I think the best alternative so far is the one chosen by Ubuntu - ship a version where the Java features are disabled. It's not like any of them are essential.
The point is that there is no need to search alternatives for OO.o - it can be compiled with Java disabled. It's not even necessary to do a full blown fork IMO - just implement the parts written in Java with e.g. Python and keep using the Sun codebase for the C++ code. Or use GCJ.
I think the best alternative so far is the one chosen by Ubuntu - ship a version where the Java features are disabled. It's not like any of them are essential.
Here's the question, though: I am a Java developer. If I choose to implement some critical feature for OpenOffice, will I not be allowed to because of the anti-Java crowd?
Yes, you've got it nearly right.
It is not that people are anti-java on a technical level, but on a political level. It doesn't matter how many times Sun says that Java is "Open", it is a proprietary piece of software and has no place in the Free Software world.
You won't be disallowed to code a piece of OpenOffice.org in Java (critical or not), but adherents of the Free Software philosophy will not use it. It is a matter of preserving Freedom (the way we think is right).
You have the Freedom to code it, we have the Freedom to reject use on the principals we have about software usage conditions.
It is not that people are anti-java on a technical level, but on a political level. It doesn't matter how many times Sun says that Java is "Open", it is a proprietary piece of software and has no place in the Free Software world.
You won't be disallowed to code a piece of OpenOffice.org in Java (critical or not), but adherents of the Free Software philosophy will not use it. It is a matter of preserving Freedom (the way we think is right).
You have the Freedom to code it, we have the Freedom to reject use on the principals we have about software usage conditions.
Sounds good to me. It is a pity the Java and FOSS communities can't work together, since I believe we share many of the same concerns and values.
It shouldn't be allowed.
What would you think if Linus Torvald accepted java software in the Linux kernel ?
You would think Linus didn't made is job of selecting relevants contributions.
Another try: I'm a debutant developer, I did an ugly, heavy, memory hungry and non portable hack that add an important feature to OpenOffice.org. Should I complain if it's rejected ?
Java is heavy, memory hungry and non portable, so you should see the point.
What would you think if Linus Torvald accepted java software in the Linux kernel ?
You would think Linus didn't made is job of selecting relevants contributions.
Another try: I'm a debutant developer, I did an ugly, heavy, memory hungry and non portable hack that add an important feature to OpenOffice.org. Should I complain if it's rejected ?
Java is heavy, memory hungry and non portable, so you should see the point.
You really need to get beter informed on Java. Java is quite a bit more portable than most other compiled languages out there. I've run Java apps on Linux, Windows and OSX with only minor changes (just having to change hardwired paths among the systems).
Java code now executes faster (with the server JIT compiler) than C++ code compiled by G++ (-O3), though it still trails the Intel C++ compiler (haven't had a chance to test MSVC++ yet).
Java IS a memory pig however, I'll grant you that. Hopefully there will be future work to fix this.
C++ developers seem to be under the impression that Java developers are all newbies out of their freshman course in college. I've programmed in C++ for 7 years now and there is no question which language is more maintainable and more productive. Wall Street isn't running on C++. Ebay isn't running on C++. C++ rocked Java's world in performance 3 or 4 years ago, but Java has gotten better and C++ hasn't.
Java code now executes faster (with the server JIT compiler) than C++ code compiled by G++ (-O3), though it still trails the Intel C++ compiler (haven't had a chance to test MSVC++ yet).
Java IS a memory pig however, I'll grant you that. Hopefully there will be future work to fix this.
C++ developers seem to be under the impression that Java developers are all newbies out of their freshman course in college. I've programmed in C++ for 7 years now and there is no question which language is more maintainable and more productive. Wall Street isn't running on C++. Ebay isn't running on C++. C++ rocked Java's world in performance 3 or 4 years ago, but Java has gotten better and C++ hasn't.
If you know Java then you should have little trouble learning C.
If someone wanted to implement a feature in Logo then I think it would be ignored too.
If someone wanted to implement a feature in Logo then I think it would be ignored too.
"I agree, to many Sun advocates have told me how great Sun has been to open source, with thier offering of OpenOffice, which by the way they bought and didn't create themselves. Sun will wield it's corporate power. Thank goodness there are plenty of alternatives to Sun's OpenOffice. "
Funny how all these "alternatives" suddenly spring up. Where were they all hiding when OpenOffice wasn't available?
Funny how all these "alternatives" suddenly spring up. Where were they all hiding when OpenOffice wasn't available?
You mean things like KWord and AbiWord? They didn't just "suddenly spring up". They just didn't get as much publicity. They also don't have as much functionality, even if they take less time and disk space to compile and are faster than OO.org.
Re:Time to fork I guess - I agree. Bye-Bye Sun!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 01:27 AM
We were looking forward to Base as an addition to OpenOffice, now due to the contanimation, and the problems with being upgrade dependent on future SUN versions of Java, that this is a problem for us.
It is time to FORK. Bye-Bye SUN.
It is time to FORK. Bye-Bye SUN.
Re:Time to fork I guess - I agree. Bye-Bye Sun!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 01:45 AM
Well, to not loose to much time, you should join us at gnome-office (or even, join koffice). Making a new office suite would be counter productive.
Try Abiword and Gnumeric, you'll be suprised how fast they are. It's plain C. It's plain free.
Try Abiword and Gnumeric, you'll be suprised how fast they are. It's plain C. It's plain free.
Re:Time to fork I guess - I agree. Bye-Bye Sun!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 03:21 AM
This is true - i use gnome-office and both abiword and gnumeric are exceptionally fast - I sometimes just wonder how OO.o can be this slow when I see gnome-office running so efficiently on my 128MB RAM machine.
More people should try to contribute to projects like gnome-office so we can have a complete free alternative as soon as possible. It will benefit everyone.
More people should try to contribute to projects like gnome-office so we can have a complete free alternative as soon as possible. It will benefit everyone.
Re:Time to fork I guess - I agree. Bye-Bye Sun!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 12:26 PM
I've got no idea why, but StarOffice is blazingly fast on my Sun Blade 2000. OpenOffice is a dog on Windows or Mac OS X, but StarOffice is kick-arse on the Sun.
Re:Time to fork I guess - I agree. Bye-Bye Sun!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 10:42 AM
I really liked gnumeric, but, I have not been able to print in about a year (debian sid) due to changes in the postscript code that are incompatible with my brother laser printer... OO works fine. Abiword however I am much less impressed with. Had major problems.
Do they support the new OpenDocument formats?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2005 07:38 AM
Where is the database that will allow Microsoft Access users a painless migration? We need to mailmerge just like we can from Access and Word.
Hey...
These are the formats that all Open Source Software must default to in the future. These should be the standard, period. Does your suggested software support these standards?
list of open document standards for OpenOffice from Groklaw site posted by dcarrera on Sunday, January 30 2005 @ 08:57 AM EST
OpenDocument Text [.odt]
OpenDocument Text Template [.ott]
OpenDocument Database [.odb] ------- Databases
OpenDocument Spreadsheet [.ods]
OpenDocument Spreadsheet Template [.ots]
OpenDocument Drawing [.odg]
OpenDocument Drawing Template [.otg]
OpenDocument Presentation [.odp]
OpenDocument Presentation Template [.otp]
OpenDocument Formula [.odf]
OpenDocument Chart [.odc]
OpenDocument Master Document [.odm]
OpenDocument HTML Document Template [.oth]
Hey...
These are the formats that all Open Source Software must default to in the future. These should be the standard, period. Does your suggested software support these standards?
list of open document standards for OpenOffice from Groklaw site posted by dcarrera on Sunday, January 30 2005 @ 08:57 AM EST
OpenDocument Text [.odt]
OpenDocument Text Template [.ott]
OpenDocument Database [.odb] ------- Databases
OpenDocument Spreadsheet [.ods]
OpenDocument Spreadsheet Template [.ots]
OpenDocument Drawing [.odg]
OpenDocument Drawing Template [.otg]
OpenDocument Presentation [.odp]
OpenDocument Presentation Template [.otp]
OpenDocument Formula [.odf]
OpenDocument Chart [.odc]
OpenDocument Master Document [.odm]
OpenDocument HTML Document Template [.oth]
Re:Do they support the new OpenDocument formats?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 10, 2005 10:21 AM
As I remember, AbiWord and KWord will both move to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.odt as default soon.
Guys,
This is the time to fork. The OO license makes this possible and we should use this option.
I personally believe that only the real threat of a fork will force the corporate mignons at OO to drop the proprietary Java.
Let's fork *now*!
This is the time to fork. The OO license makes this possible and we should use this option.
I personally believe that only the real threat of a fork will force the corporate mignons at OO to drop the proprietary Java.
Let's fork *now*!
"I personally believe that only the real threat of a fork will force the corporate mignons at OO to drop the proprietary Java."
Netscape, and Firefox prove that your "dream" is hollow.
Netscape, and Firefox prove that your "dream" is hollow.
If a single vote can still count, I'm all for removing Java or forking the code base.
Being forced to use non free software is something we'll pay for later.
Being forced to use non free software is something we'll pay for later.
Java is the easiest truly cross-platform (Windows, UNIX, and more) development tool for the broadest community to develop the most features with. There are more cross-platform libraries to build upon for Java than for the alternatives.
To exclude its usage due to the lack of an open-source Java implementation would be ridiculously myopic. The pure open-source folk need to get real. Java really is the best option out there for some OpenOffice features (probably for a good number more than it is being used for).
Those who claim Mono has some leg up *really* need to get real -- anything interesting much beyond what one could do in pure ANSI C++ (without extensions) requires Windows-only APIs that essentially require the entire Windows SDK or an emulation thereof. Mono helps only Microsoft by increasing mindshare for their language but preventing any real utility on any platform but theirs.
To exclude its usage due to the lack of an open-source Java implementation would be ridiculously myopic. The pure open-source folk need to get real. Java really is the best option out there for some OpenOffice features (probably for a good number more than it is being used for).
Those who claim Mono has some leg up *really* need to get real -- anything interesting much beyond what one could do in pure ANSI C++ (without extensions) requires Windows-only APIs that essentially require the entire Windows SDK or an emulation thereof. Mono helps only Microsoft by increasing mindshare for their language but preventing any real utility on any platform but theirs.
Java is the easiest truly cross-platform (Windows, UNIX, and more) development tool
Damn wintel people, you don't know what you say. Eat more sun marketing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but have you ever tryed java 1.5 on a non Linux/solaris/windows OS ? on a non x86/sparc/sparc64 hardware ? no ? now give the same test to perl, ruby or python and see what cross-platform means.
And no, kaffee, ikvm and other free alternatives don't do the trick, mostly because devs like you (assuming "Sun's jdk/jre is portable since sun claimed it is") do never try to keep they're code compatible with them.
That's the point here. Java devs often says they're favorable to foss, but they don't make the minimal effort to keep they work compatible with foss (similarly to website designers making ie-only sites, some years ago).
So you're wondering why foss community don't accept java insertion on they -otherwise java free- free software ? Why foss people don't like java developers ?
And c'mon, if it took a bunch of red hat engeneers (including they're gcc/gcj specialists) to make the thing work under gcj, there is no chance for a mere mortal to succeed here.
Those who claim Mono has some leg up *really* need to get real
You're right there. But, once again, damn wintel man, be aknowledged that there are more alternatives than just java and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.net.
Damn wintel people, you don't know what you say. Eat more sun marketing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but have you ever tryed java 1.5 on a non Linux/solaris/windows OS ? on a non x86/sparc/sparc64 hardware ? no ? now give the same test to perl, ruby or python and see what cross-platform means.
And no, kaffee, ikvm and other free alternatives don't do the trick, mostly because devs like you (assuming "Sun's jdk/jre is portable since sun claimed it is") do never try to keep they're code compatible with them.
That's the point here. Java devs often says they're favorable to foss, but they don't make the minimal effort to keep they work compatible with foss (similarly to website designers making ie-only sites, some years ago).
So you're wondering why foss community don't accept java insertion on they -otherwise java free- free software ? Why foss people don't like java developers ?
And c'mon, if it took a bunch of red hat engeneers (including they're gcc/gcj specialists) to make the thing work under gcj, there is no chance for a mere mortal to succeed here.
Those who claim Mono has some leg up *really* need to get real
You're right there. But, once again, damn wintel man, be aknowledged that there are more alternatives than just java and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.net.
"Java is the easiest truly cross-platform (Windows, UNIX, and more) development tool for the broadest community to develop the most features with. There are more cross-platform libraries to build upon for Java than for the alternatives."
Easiest? Highly debatable. The vast majority of people I have spoken to deem Java worse designed and harder to learn than Python.
As for 'more cross-platform libraries' i'd like to see where you got your statistics. I found cross platform libraries for Java fairly scarce compared to those for Python.
"Those who claim Mono has some leg up *really* need to get real -- anything interesting much beyond what one could do in pure ANSI C++ (without extensions) requires Windows-only APIs that essentially require the entire Windows SDK or an emulation thereof."
Heh, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you. Give the mono project more credit.
Have you even read about the native Windows.Forms effort provided in the latest preview of Mono? Try creating GUIs and drawing onto widgets in pure ANSI C++<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
Easiest? Highly debatable. The vast majority of people I have spoken to deem Java worse designed and harder to learn than Python.
As for 'more cross-platform libraries' i'd like to see where you got your statistics. I found cross platform libraries for Java fairly scarce compared to those for Python.
"Those who claim Mono has some leg up *really* need to get real -- anything interesting much beyond what one could do in pure ANSI C++ (without extensions) requires Windows-only APIs that essentially require the entire Windows SDK or an emulation thereof."
Heh, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you. Give the mono project more credit.
Have you even read about the native Windows.Forms effort provided in the latest preview of Mono? Try creating GUIs and drawing onto widgets in pure ANSI C++<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
and lets begin by making a formal committment to never user or link it to any non-free software.
"Free Office" anyone?
"Free Office" anyone?
I like the name!
*FREE*: Jonathan Schwartz confusing Free and Open
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 31, 2005 06:22 AM
Sun is still confusing Open Source Software with Free Software.
In the medium run, they'll this off. Even if Solaris is OSI approuved, the F/OSS community had seen the challenge against FSF and GPL compatibility (BSD, MIT/X, LGPL<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... licences).
See the recent <a href="http://www.varbusiness.com/components/weblogs/art" title="varbusiness.com">http://www.varbusiness.com/components/weblogs/art</a varbusiness.com><nobr>i<wbr></nobr> cle.jhtml?articleId=159907780
Schwartz's marketing about "probably opensourceing java in the near futur" : hey, Jonathan, Java is already Open Source ! We all can download the source code. Don't try to fool us.
Don't Sun hear the crowd ? Are you leaf ?
The matter here, is that java is not Free Software.
Don't take the F/OOS crowd for morons.
So it's still Free Vs. Open.
In the medium run, they'll this off. Even if Solaris is OSI approuved, the F/OSS community had seen the challenge against FSF and GPL compatibility (BSD, MIT/X, LGPL<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... licences).
See the recent <a href="http://www.varbusiness.com/components/weblogs/art" title="varbusiness.com">http://www.varbusiness.com/components/weblogs/art</a varbusiness.com><nobr>i<wbr></nobr> cle.jhtml?articleId=159907780
Schwartz's marketing about "probably opensourceing java in the near futur" : hey, Jonathan, Java is already Open Source ! We all can download the source code. Don't try to fool us.
Don't Sun hear the crowd ? Are you leaf ?
The matter here, is that java is not Free Software.
Don't take the F/OOS crowd for morons.
So it's still Free Vs. Open.
Could you please post a poll asking whether your readers do or do not support forking OO over the Java issue?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Fork it. Use gcj or no java at all.
why are OpenOffice people avoiding this thread?!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 31, 2005 10:06 PM
NF posts, whether discussing OO or not, regularly contain contributions by people of the OpenOffice community. This time, the OO people are conspicuouly absent.
wonder why?
wonder why?
A Bug Report has been Filed. Login and vote on it!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 05, 2005 09:36 AM
On this page just before where the comments begin is a field where you can vote on the importance of this bug. I encourage everyone to login/creat an account if you haven't already, go to the following link and cast your vote!
Click here to go directly to the bug report: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/4h7jw" title="tinyurl.com">http://tinyurl.com/4h7jw</a tinyurl.com>
Click here to go directly to the bug report: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/4h7jw" title="tinyurl.com">http://tinyurl.com/4h7jw</a tinyurl.com>
First, I want to thank NF and the author for this extremenly well-written article. Second, I would like to stress that without free software advocates the so-called FOSS community would be easily trapped by the repeated attempts of the corporate world to "bait" the FOSS community with the newest proprietary technologies as was the case in KDE's libriaries who were eventually freed solely because of the free software advocates reaction and the rise of GNOME. The core difference is in fact not quite that open source supporters focus on better technologies whereas free software supporters focus on philosophy: free software supporters simply *know* (they have a better memory it seems) that insistance on philosophy always eventually yields technological superiority whereas the open source supporters short-term "immediate gratification" (a la "gimme now") really does little, if anything, for the long term survival and development of the FOSS community and technologies.
God bless free software advocates for their efforts!
God bless free software advocates for their efforts!
this article and your comments really helped me SEE the difference between free and open more than i had before.
thank you for that.i kept getting glimpses of the differences but i have never fully understood.now it comes a little clearer.
i just may have to go to debian before i am really ready to because of this.i use mdk but i also fully support F/OSS
i just hope my skills have developed enough to handle debian.
thank you for that.i kept getting glimpses of the differences but i have never fully understood.now it comes a little clearer.
i just may have to go to debian before i am really ready to because of this.i use mdk but i also fully support F/OSS
i just hope my skills have developed enough to handle debian.
Debian is simply a community developed distribution without corporate backing. Mandrake is a corporate backed distribution. The only major differences are that MDK is sold in a boxed with proprietary third-party software (i.e. Java) and Debian is not. There really is no learning curve here except different default settings. BTW, if you want a really easy, one CD install, download the SimplyMEPIS LiveCD and install from there. MEPIS is debian and really easy to install and use. Plus it comes with Synaptic as a front-end to apt-get (the Debian package manager) if you are afraid of the command line.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^)
SimplyMEPIS is *NOT* free software. Go for Knoppix or any other truly free Debian-based live-CD!
Pardon me?
<a href="http://www.mepis.org/node/1360" title="mepis.org">http://www.mepis.org/node/1360</a mepis.org>
SimplyMEPIS asks for donations in the form of subscriptions, to finance the project, the distro IS offered as a freely available download under the GPL. You can copy, use, sell, etc..., as many copies as you wish as long as you don't use the MEPIS logo.... i.e., do your own support and don't expect Warren to cover your releases.
<a href="http://www.mepis.org/node/1360" title="mepis.org">http://www.mepis.org/node/1360</a mepis.org>
SimplyMEPIS asks for donations in the form of subscriptions, to finance the project, the distro IS offered as a freely available download under the GPL. You can copy, use, sell, etc..., as many copies as you wish as long as you don't use the MEPIS logo.... i.e., do your own support and don't expect Warren to cover your releases.
of course I pardon you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)
Initially, I also thought that SimplyMEPIS was free and it was. as in beer. but NOT as in speech. check with the MEPIS dudes (as I did): first, they will try to answer you obliquely, but eventually, they will fess up that there is lots of non-free code on their distro.
these guys are actually very good at playing out the confusion between the different meanings of "free" to their advantage, but send them and email and ask if their are willling to release it all under, say, the GPL and they go apeshit.
too bad!
Initially, I also thought that SimplyMEPIS was free and it was. as in beer. but NOT as in speech. check with the MEPIS dudes (as I did): first, they will try to answer you obliquely, but eventually, they will fess up that there is lots of non-free code on their distro.
these guys are actually very good at playing out the confusion between the different meanings of "free" to their advantage, but send them and email and ask if their are willling to release it all under, say, the GPL and they go apeshit.
too bad!
a free distro + some good readings + giving back
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 01:02 AM
just keep in mind that Mandrake's download edition (3CDs packed with all the software you are likely to want) is completely free software! If you are relatively new to GNU/Linux - that's the one I would reccommend you begin with.
Also - you will find a look of clarifications of these issues in the following texts:
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html</a fsf.org>
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-software" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-software</a fsf.org><nobr>-<wbr></nobr> for-freedom.html
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/pragmatic.htm" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/pragmatic.htm</a fsf.org><nobr>l<wbr></nobr>
And if you find these arguments convincing, here is where you can help us all:
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/associate" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/associate</a fsf.org>
Cheers!
Also - you will find a look of clarifications of these issues in the following texts:
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html</a fsf.org>
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-software" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-software</a fsf.org><nobr>-<wbr></nobr> for-freedom.html
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/pragmatic.htm" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/pragmatic.htm</a fsf.org><nobr>l<wbr></nobr>
And if you find these arguments convincing, here is where you can help us all:
<a href="http://www.fsf.org/associate" title="fsf.org">http://www.fsf.org/associate</a fsf.org>
Cheers!
Until you are ready for Debian may I recommend that you download SimplyMEPIS-3.3 (mepis.org) and install it instead. Synaptic is an excellent app for adding and removing software just with clicks, and there are over 16,000 apps in the repositories to choose from.
It is a LiveCD distro, like KNOPPIX or Kannotix, but is from MorganTown, WV., USA, and is, IMHO, better thought out and with a nice admin tool. You can install it as a stub on your HD, or do a full install using the admin app. I booted it as a LiveCd on my friends Gateway M675XL laptop and was suprised to see it recongnize and install the internal broadcom wireless at 54MHz automatically, something that SUSE Pro 9.2, KNOPPIX 3.7 and Kannotix could not do without manaully using ndiswrapper.
It is a LiveCD distro, like KNOPPIX or Kannotix, but is from MorganTown, WV., USA, and is, IMHO, better thought out and with a nice admin tool. You can install it as a stub on your HD, or do a full install using the admin app. I booted it as a LiveCd on my friends Gateway M675XL laptop and was suprised to see it recongnize and install the internal broadcom wireless at 54MHz automatically, something that SUSE Pro 9.2, KNOPPIX 3.7 and Kannotix could not do without manaully using ndiswrapper.
I second that ! Without a philosophy such as 'free software' we are never gonna go forward. I am in trouble here cause I've been promoting OOo as 'free' and now it turns out that it isn't so. Maybe as somebody suggested elswhere in the comments, it is time to fork a la xorg.
Strictly speaking, gcj has no problem with openoffice, it is a matter of re-implementing the many java libraries it uses (GNU classpath), complete with tests (mauve).
Classpath is at the stage where <A HREF="http://www.kaffe.org/screenshots_eclipse.shtml" title="kaffe.org">eclipse runs</a kaffe.org>. This is a new challenge.
Ulimately, the work required to use openoffice with a free runtime (or compiler) will just benefit classpath.
We'll get java running on more architectures, more integrated into distributions, and without depending on a company to provide upgrades.
That said, I have no idea of the amount of libraries openoffice uses and of the work required =)
Classpath is at the stage where <A HREF="http://www.kaffe.org/screenshots_eclipse.shtml" title="kaffe.org">eclipse runs</a kaffe.org>. This is a new challenge.
Ulimately, the work required to use openoffice with a free runtime (or compiler) will just benefit classpath.
We'll get java running on more architectures, more integrated into distributions, and without depending on a company to provide upgrades.
That said, I have no idea of the amount of libraries openoffice uses and of the work required =)
Apparently the database part is working well enough , that there are <A HREF="http://www.spindazzle.org/green/index.php?p=43" title="spindazzle.org"> screenshots </a spindazzle.org> to be drolled upon. Good.
If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is the Java runtime. The Java code itself has an acceptably free license; you just need a non-free component to run it.
If this is right, then translating the Java source into C++ will not violate any license and should not be very difficult. I could help with this. (Where do I volunteer?)
As for the bundled database, why don't we use MySQL? It's not great, but it's "good enough", and certainly vastly better than MS Access.
Your kidding right?
MySql is fine as fare as backend databases go, but there using the SQL command line (or even some of the tools out there) is no where near as productive as MS Access.
IMHO its not the underlying database -- I usually link access to MySQL, Oracle, or the like. Rather, I can rapidly do query's, write simple forms/programs, and generate quick reports. The inclusion of VB means that I have a lot of power behind those forms, and some people actually develop full applications with access.
Python is certainly a good substitute for VB, but MySQL, by itself, fails abmismally to provide any level of comparability with access.
MySql is fine as fare as backend databases go, but there using the SQL command line (or even some of the tools out there) is no where near as productive as MS Access.
IMHO its not the underlying database -- I usually link access to MySQL, Oracle, or the like. Rather, I can rapidly do query's, write simple forms/programs, and generate quick reports. The inclusion of VB means that I have a lot of power behind those forms, and some people actually develop full applications with access.
Python is certainly a good substitute for VB, but MySQL, by itself, fails abmismally to provide any level of comparability with access.
If you can't rapidly do all that with MySQL then you are certainly suited to the brain numbing obtuseness of Access.
You have a point here. Access is really 2 different things bundled together:
- a gui front-end to databases with easy-to-build forms etc.
- a really wimpy database
The comparison I was making was with (2). But maybe the OO.org beta aims at (1)? I have to admit I haven't tried it yet, I was relying on the article and making some (perhaps wrong) assumptions.
Re:Does it just require a partial rewrite?
Posted by: Adam Tauno Williams on March 29, 2005 04:04 AM
>If this is right, then translating the Java source
>into C++ will not violate any license and should
>not be very difficult. I could help with this.
>(Where do I volunteer?)
Sounds like a nightmare to me? You have 1:1 replacements for all the libraries and classes?
>As for the bundled database, why don't we use
>MySQL? It's not great, but it's "good enough",
>and certainly vastly better than MS Acc
MySQL does not have a process resident engine; you need to start the engine and then work with it - for desktop/workstations this is a headache.
>into C++ will not violate any license and should
>not be very difficult. I could help with this.
>(Where do I volunteer?)
Sounds like a nightmare to me? You have 1:1 replacements for all the libraries and classes?
>As for the bundled database, why don't we use
>MySQL? It's not great, but it's "good enough",
>and certainly vastly better than MS Acc
MySQL does not have a process resident engine; you need to start the engine and then work with it - for desktop/workstations this is a headache.
Sounds like a nightmare to me? You have 1:1 replacements for all the libraries and classes?
The difficult parts of projects like OO.org are (1) reverse-engineering proprietary file formats to be compatible, (2) design and interface specification. Both of these have been done. Yes, some Java library classes and functions would have to be rewritten in C++, but they are well-specified. The tough part has been done. What's left is just a lot of coding and testing. Tedious, but straightforward.
As for MySQL not being process-resident, I think that's a good thing. It needs to be started just once, when you boot your workstation.
Actually MySQL is a great idea but OO.o already uses MySQL through JDBC and ODBC. It would be nice to have a native connection through. I don't think that is going to happen.
MySQL is not a good engine to incorporate directly into the software because it has a high memory overhead. It does do well as a database server though. It, by itself, will not provide the kind of interface that is required for the "Office" type application.
For me I'm excited about what is going on with OOo. I think it's great step in the right direction (java or not) and should be hailed as a good faith effort on the behalf of Sun.
I, like everybody else, would like to see Java become open source, but I don't see that as happening in the near future. If that means that distributions of Linux cannot include it then fine. Sun will learn that in order for this project to continue to be so popular they will need to provide proper alternitives to the Java code that they have included in the project or make Java open source so that it can be properly included with Linux distributions.
I don't think lashing out against Sun is necessarily appropriate. Expressing concern is very appropriate however and Sun will have to listen to the community. But the community should be patient when it comes things like this I think. It takes time to open minds.
- Filter
MySQL is not a good engine to incorporate directly into the software because it has a high memory overhead. It does do well as a database server though. It, by itself, will not provide the kind of interface that is required for the "Office" type application.
For me I'm excited about what is going on with OOo. I think it's great step in the right direction (java or not) and should be hailed as a good faith effort on the behalf of Sun.
I, like everybody else, would like to see Java become open source, but I don't see that as happening in the near future. If that means that distributions of Linux cannot include it then fine. Sun will learn that in order for this project to continue to be so popular they will need to provide proper alternitives to the Java code that they have included in the project or make Java open source so that it can be properly included with Linux distributions.
I don't think lashing out against Sun is necessarily appropriate. Expressing concern is very appropriate however and Sun will have to listen to the community. But the community should be patient when it comes things like this I think. It takes time to open minds.
- Filter
If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is the Java runtime. The Java code itself has an acceptably free license; you just need a non-free component to run it.
Correct.
If this is right, then translating the Java source into C++ will not violate any license and should not be very difficult. I could help with this. (Where do I volunteer?)
Well, I'd suggest that the best way to volunteer would be to download OO.o and try building it, and then slowly start replacing components. I strongly suggest using Ximian/Novell's ooo-build framework for this, rather than raw OO.o; you'll find it much easier. Also, you might contact debian-openoffice@lists.debian.org; there are many on that list who know much about the details of where Java is used in OO.o.
For a relatively easy example, there is a Java-based import filter that imports XML-based document formats by running them through an XSLT to turn them into OO.o's XML format. It would be easy enough to change this into a C++-based import filter, linking to libxslt.
Your contribution would be highly welcome.
Unless something has changed in the last release or two, the frontend to Mepis is not Synaptic but KDE's frontend to Synaptic. I've run into a bug with that frontend that prevented me from using it and only with a lot of googling and online help was I even able to figure out that the error message I was receiving when attempting to install packages was related to an error of that kde frontend to synaptic.
Hopefully the bug has been fixed since then, but my fix was to uninstall that app and install the real Synaptic (along with the related apt tools, such as apt-list-bugs, and other apt tools that integrate themselves into synaptic when you install synaptic. All those tools are HIGHLY recommended, they make using synaptic much easier and efficient.
As for Mepis, it is an excellent distro for newbies. Once you feel you are passed the newbie stage, Mepis may not be the distro for you. If you decide to stop using the Mepis administration tools and move to a more pure Debian testing base (or unstable), and/or change your sources list, or do a few other things so that the distro is not a "pure" Mepis distro, you'll be 1. questioned as to why you did such a thing when asking for help on Mepis's irc channel, and 2. told that it really isn't a Mepis distro anymore, you should try getting help elsewhere. Then, your options are to 1. Uninstall and install Sarge or unstable so that you can get help on irc or via mailing lists, or 2. Hide the fact that you are running Mepis and claim you are running testing or unstable if you try to get help in debian-user or one of the related channels. Should you let it slip that you are running what once was Mepis in a Debian channel, be prepared for the abuse you are going to receive before being told to leave the channel. And it is stated right in the channel subject that, "Mepis is not Debian!"
Once again, I'm not knocking Mepis. It is very simple to use and very recommended for newbies. Just have a migration plan (like placing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home on a different partition) for the future so that when you outgrow Mepis or want to make some non-Mepis changes that result in your install being regarded as no longer Mepis (such as commenting out the Mepis source and not using the Mepis admin tools anymore since once you stop using the Mepis admin tools and start administering the system by text files or other apps, if you go back to the Mepis admin tools they overwrite your text file changes), then you are able to migrate your install to a new distro without losing your data.
It may be a no-brainer to put<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home on a different partition, but real newbies don't understand this, I've run into a few that didn't understand why they needed to do this. I know someone else who was backing up his entire<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home directory to dozens of CDs each time he decided to install a newer version of his favorite distro. He was speechless when I explained to him how he could put<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home on a separate partition and install newer distros without backing up to CDs every time, even though he should back up important data to cds anyway.
As for <A HREF="http://software.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=45487&cid=109252" title="newsforge.com">this poster</a newsforge.com>, there is another major difference between Debian and MDK. The big difference is the Free Software policy of Debian. Apps can't be included unless they meet the guidelines of Free Software, otherwise they are not included or placed in an alternate section called "non-free". Debian has a large enough (and growing) userbase that some application developers have to consider whether they will be included with Debian or excluded, whether they will end up in main or non-free, whether they will be considered Free or not, etc. Adaptec is one of the hardware manufacturers who is learning this lesson with OpenBSD right now. Intel will learn this also, as I and others will no longer purchase Intel cpus, Intel ethernet boards, or other Intel hardware until they, in an effective manner, decide to participate with GNU on a Linux BIOS. My future purchases of cpus and motherboards, and pre-built computers will only be of AMD powered ones, not Intel. AMD is participating in the GNU Linux BIOS effort with constructive help. Intel is not. If Intel/Microsoft/IBM/MPAA succeed in locking up the BIOS via their Digital Restrictions Management efforts disguised as Trustworthy Computing or other "secure computing", then Free Software users in particular and all computer users in general will be losers as this continues to be implemented.
Free software is what is going to save your computer from being turned into a locked media device, is what is going to help save fair use and your ability to own the music you pay for without having it "expire", and is what is going to save many more technologies some of which haven't even been invented yet.
That is the difference between Free Software and Open Source. Understand the difference so you understand what the real stakes are.
Hopefully the bug has been fixed since then, but my fix was to uninstall that app and install the real Synaptic (along with the related apt tools, such as apt-list-bugs, and other apt tools that integrate themselves into synaptic when you install synaptic. All those tools are HIGHLY recommended, they make using synaptic much easier and efficient.
As for Mepis, it is an excellent distro for newbies. Once you feel you are passed the newbie stage, Mepis may not be the distro for you. If you decide to stop using the Mepis administration tools and move to a more pure Debian testing base (or unstable), and/or change your sources list, or do a few other things so that the distro is not a "pure" Mepis distro, you'll be 1. questioned as to why you did such a thing when asking for help on Mepis's irc channel, and 2. told that it really isn't a Mepis distro anymore, you should try getting help elsewhere. Then, your options are to 1. Uninstall and install Sarge or unstable so that you can get help on irc or via mailing lists, or 2. Hide the fact that you are running Mepis and claim you are running testing or unstable if you try to get help in debian-user or one of the related channels. Should you let it slip that you are running what once was Mepis in a Debian channel, be prepared for the abuse you are going to receive before being told to leave the channel. And it is stated right in the channel subject that, "Mepis is not Debian!"
Once again, I'm not knocking Mepis. It is very simple to use and very recommended for newbies. Just have a migration plan (like placing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home on a different partition) for the future so that when you outgrow Mepis or want to make some non-Mepis changes that result in your install being regarded as no longer Mepis (such as commenting out the Mepis source and not using the Mepis admin tools anymore since once you stop using the Mepis admin tools and start administering the system by text files or other apps, if you go back to the Mepis admin tools they overwrite your text file changes), then you are able to migrate your install to a new distro without losing your data.
It may be a no-brainer to put<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home on a different partition, but real newbies don't understand this, I've run into a few that didn't understand why they needed to do this. I know someone else who was backing up his entire<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home directory to dozens of CDs each time he decided to install a newer version of his favorite distro. He was speechless when I explained to him how he could put<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/home on a separate partition and install newer distros without backing up to CDs every time, even though he should back up important data to cds anyway.
As for <A HREF="http://software.newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=45487&cid=109252" title="newsforge.com">this poster</a newsforge.com>, there is another major difference between Debian and MDK. The big difference is the Free Software policy of Debian. Apps can't be included unless they meet the guidelines of Free Software, otherwise they are not included or placed in an alternate section called "non-free". Debian has a large enough (and growing) userbase that some application developers have to consider whether they will be included with Debian or excluded, whether they will end up in main or non-free, whether they will be considered Free or not, etc. Adaptec is one of the hardware manufacturers who is learning this lesson with OpenBSD right now. Intel will learn this also, as I and others will no longer purchase Intel cpus, Intel ethernet boards, or other Intel hardware until they, in an effective manner, decide to participate with GNU on a Linux BIOS. My future purchases of cpus and motherboards, and pre-built computers will only be of AMD powered ones, not Intel. AMD is participating in the GNU Linux BIOS effort with constructive help. Intel is not. If Intel/Microsoft/IBM/MPAA succeed in locking up the BIOS via their Digital Restrictions Management efforts disguised as Trustworthy Computing or other "secure computing", then Free Software users in particular and all computer users in general will be losers as this continues to be implemented.
Free software is what is going to save your computer from being turned into a locked media device, is what is going to help save fair use and your ability to own the music you pay for without having it "expire", and is what is going to save many more technologies some of which haven't even been invented yet.
That is the difference between Free Software and Open Source. Understand the difference so you understand what the real stakes are.
mmm... I am running SimplyMEPIS-3.3 and have found no issues with Synaptic.
It has installed and/or upgraded PostgreSQL, pgAdmin, mplayer, w32codecs, qt-designer, wine, bibletime, kdevelop, adobe reader 7.0, firefox 1.0.1, and others I can't remember, all without problems.
It has installed and/or upgraded PostgreSQL, pgAdmin, mplayer, w32codecs, qt-designer, wine, bibletime, kdevelop, adobe reader 7.0, firefox 1.0.1, and others I can't remember, all without problems.
I was talking about the kde frontend to Synaptic that Mepis was and maybe still is installing in the default setup. My install was some 3-6 months ago. I can't remember the name, so I googled a bit and kpackage looks familiar, although there is another kde frontend mentioned as Kapture. I think it was kpackage. It worked fine, except in the first few weeks I ran into a bug that had a five digit line number as an explanation to the error message. I tried googling for the error but couldn't find anything on it. With some help online in a programming channel and some other hints, I figured out that it probably was a bug in kpackage (if that's the right name of the app I'm talking about. The error prevented upgrading, and possibly updating as well. I uninstalled kpackage using apt-get, then installed synaptic (which wasn't installed by default in the Mepis version I installed back then) and everything worked fine after that.
And in thinking about further, one of the instances where I tried to get help with the error message on the Mepis irc channel, after I installed Synaptic to solve that problem and ran into a different problem, I explained what I did in removing kpackage and installing Synaptic, and the response was, why did you do that? and, I can't help you with that because of that, even though the new problem had nothing to do with Synaptic.
And in thinking about further, one of the instances where I tried to get help with the error message on the Mepis irc channel, after I installed Synaptic to solve that problem and ran into a different problem, I explained what I did in removing kpackage and installing Synaptic, and the response was, why did you do that? and, I can't help you with that because of that, even though the new problem had nothing to do with Synaptic.
Let's remember, folks, that Sun has always been trying to push Java, over which they have exclusive control. The only "corporate" reason I can think of for their doing this is so that maybe they can exert some kind of "intellectual property" influence at some later point and extract license fees. I liken it to an only slightly less obvious version of Microsoft's attempts to patent everything under the...well, sun.
This is unfortunate, since Sun has produced plenty of Free Software, including OpenOffice.org itself. Would that they would fully cooperate with us! Perhaps Sun thinks that, now that OO.o has become an essential app for Free Software desktop deployment, that it's OK to increase the Java dependency.
This is unfortunate, since Sun has produced plenty of Free Software, including OpenOffice.org itself. Would that they would fully cooperate with us! Perhaps Sun thinks that, now that OO.o has become an essential app for Free Software desktop deployment, that it's OK to increase the Java dependency.
a) Sun doesn't have exclusive control. There are 15 members on the JCP, which include Apache and IBM. Sun only has veto powers over changes in Java the language. Java the language is nothing compared to Java the API.
b) Sun hardly needs OpenOffice to push Java, since there are probably over 1000 Java users for every one OpenOffice user.
b) Sun hardly needs OpenOffice to push Java, since there are probably over 1000 Java users for every one OpenOffice user.
The majority of those users are probably not in the desktop arena though, and are more likely to be on the server. Gaining ground on the desktop, pushing Java, and of course Scott's no. 1 goal, getting one over on MS by taking MS Office market share.
I've kinda lost track of what MS and Sun have done vis-a-vis including JRE in the VAR installs of XP but last time I played with this I had to go get JRE after the installation. And I do remember some confusing bits trying to discover what it was, exactly, that I needed to download and install. Certainly confusing enough that many XP users would get lost. So what happens with Open Office? Does this reduce the functionality of OO with MS products? Will this make it more difficult for us to recommend that people simply adopt Open Office as a free download?
XP users?
Think of somebody with terminal cancer, arteriosclerosis, terminal AIDS and in urgent need of a quadruple bypass asking whether tylenol or ibuprofen would be better for his runny nose...
if you are running XP - you really, really have other problems to take care of first my friend.
Think of somebody with terminal cancer, arteriosclerosis, terminal AIDS and in urgent need of a quadruple bypass asking whether tylenol or ibuprofen would be better for his runny nose...
if you are running XP - you really, really have other problems to take care of first my friend.
For most XP users, it doesn't matter. Dell, HP and most other PC distributors already ship with the Sun JRE and have been doing so for a while.
MS Java has always sucked so you should have downloaded Suns JAVA in any cases, and it's not hard. If it's to hard I guess you are stuck with two options:
1) use something else
2) learn how to do things<nobr> <wbr></nobr>// aliquis@link-net.org
1) use something else
2) learn how to do things<nobr> <wbr></nobr>// aliquis@link-net.org
Ooo java components requires lot's more memory, beside memory already needed by standard Ooo runtime.
Schönheit assertion of java not being slow may be discussed, but everyone knows how java is a memory nightmare.
While this can be accepted for a small/medium pure java software, or for server applications, it become a huge problem when it additions to an already very heavy application targetted to desktop users. It's not a problem with java, it's a problem with the Ooo decision to use java.
How to interpret the fact that Ooo team decided to kill compatibility with lower end computers and poorer people just to add more "graphical wizards" or an "emmbeded movies player" ? This throw discredit on Ooo team. And this makes Ooo inelligible in many situations.
Schönheit assertion of java not being slow may be discussed, but everyone knows how java is a memory nightmare.
While this can be accepted for a small/medium pure java software, or for server applications, it become a huge problem when it additions to an already very heavy application targetted to desktop users. It's not a problem with java, it's a problem with the Ooo decision to use java.
How to interpret the fact that Ooo team decided to kill compatibility with lower end computers and poorer people just to add more "graphical wizards" or an "emmbeded movies player" ? This throw discredit on Ooo team. And this makes Ooo inelligible in many situations.
You make a very good point regarding those that for one reason or another use "low-end" computers.
OOo today is approx 264MB as a binary installation.
It will not run adequately in 64Mb ram.
So in order to create a document one would need a powerful pc... just to write a document! Where the pc spends almost all of its time idly waiting for the next user keystroke. Today progess is confused with larger simply to keep selling the same stuff all over again. MS Word 6.0 did 95% that MSOffice 2000 Word does...but what a different in size and price!
I was hoping more from the OOo custodians...instead they seem to be simply interested in continuing the MS way of doing things which is "...now it takes more bloat to do the same things as before...".
I have a p4 1.5G and OOo takes a long time to start up compared to Mozilla, the gimp, etc.
I bet you by removing the needless bloat of the jvm dependencies they could reduce that.
Anything you can do in java you can do in python...but at a fraction of the resource costs...and it runs on all platforms..like java.
and what is wrong with SQLite as a db engine?
Small...very fast and completely GPL'd.
woe, woe, woe is OOo!
OOo today is approx 264MB as a binary installation.
It will not run adequately in 64Mb ram.
So in order to create a document one would need a powerful pc... just to write a document! Where the pc spends almost all of its time idly waiting for the next user keystroke. Today progess is confused with larger simply to keep selling the same stuff all over again. MS Word 6.0 did 95% that MSOffice 2000 Word does...but what a different in size and price!
I was hoping more from the OOo custodians...instead they seem to be simply interested in continuing the MS way of doing things which is "...now it takes more bloat to do the same things as before...".
I have a p4 1.5G and OOo takes a long time to start up compared to Mozilla, the gimp, etc.
I bet you by removing the needless bloat of the jvm dependencies they could reduce that.
Anything you can do in java you can do in python...but at a fraction of the resource costs...and it runs on all platforms..like java.
and what is wrong with SQLite as a db engine?
Small...very fast and completely GPL'd.
woe, woe, woe is OOo!
Isn't SQLite public domain?
I'm not sure how this matches with everyone else's experience, but from what I've seen, the new OOo 2.0 beta requires less RAM than the previous version. I installed a 1.1.? version on my son's Linux box with 256Meg, and it ran like a DOG. I installed one of the 2.0Beta versions on the same box, and it literally ran 10 times as fast, mostly due to less thrashing of swap space.
So, no, the new version is NOT that much more bloated than the previous versions.
If you have memory concerns, better go with Abiword and Gnumeric.
It's very simple: if the software is non-free or requires the use of non-free software such as java then just stay away from the software.
Hmm, so I suppose you're not running on top of any non-free video drivers for, oh say your NVidia or ATI graphics card?
I do not have any other non-Free software on my computer, so why should I start now? I will continue to use Abiword until this Java problem is resolved.
You sure about that? You've got the source to your video drivers? If so, I'd really like to know what graphics card you've got.
I'm not the original poster, but I've got no non-free software on my system as well. I have an nvidia graphics card but guess what - even though the nvidia driver is available in Ubuntu, I don't use them - instead I'm happy with the free drivers.
So were's the free nForce drivers? Or did everyone just conviently forget those?
What's wrong with nForce? Recently, I installed FC3 on nForce-based computer and it had free drivers for everything - chipset, SATA-controller, network card and soundcard.
Free as in "Beer", or free as in (speech)?
It is also called learning how to use your operating system.
Why are you after video driver? I don't get it? Abiword is fine. video driver? how?
I do not have any other non-Free software on my computer, so why should I start now?
Who suggested that you should?
I will continue to use Abiword until this Java problem is resolved.
There is no "Java Problem" to resolve. If you don't want to use Java, don't use OoO. Or, if you're just against non-free Software, help get OoO working with one of the (many) Free implementations of Java. Either way, nobody is forcing you to use Sun's Java.
Who suggested that you should?
I will continue to use Abiword until this Java problem is resolved.
There is no "Java Problem" to resolve. If you don't want to use Java, don't use OoO. Or, if you're just against non-free Software, help get OoO working with one of the (many) Free implementations of Java. Either way, nobody is forcing you to use Sun's Java.
I will continue to use Abiword until this Java problem is resolved.
If that works for you, great. But it isn't a solution for most people, because OO.org isn't just a word processor. It's a replacement for most of Microsoft's Office suite and can read both<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.xls files when needed.
The rest of us will probably continue to use the older (i.e. current) version of OO.org until the problem is resolved.
java is not the only solution for those problems
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 12:53 AM
Other alternatives exists that covers the needs expressed leading to the java requirements. For instance python has an OpenOffice.org binding (PyUno), is not memory hungry, is free (as in free speech), is really portable (java is not), is "mature enough to use for complex tasks" and permit even more rapid developpement (at least, it needs far fewer lines of code for the same thing).
It can be learned in a week (so you're java programmer are totaly able to switch to python).
It's also far more respected by FOSS community (gnome project accepted python but not java components, Fedora core management tools are in python, and finally it's present in every linux/bsd/macosx distro and for each of they're supported plateform).
For an HSQLDB alternative, Sqlite is even more free (public domain and patents free), full featured, fast and light pure C. Sqlite has c, c++, java, perl, ruby, python, tcl<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... bindings, allowing it to be used by any Ooo component and by external tools on virtually any langage.
Libgda is free, fast, pure C and does all the same as JDBC.
The argument saying that OpenOffice.org choose the pragmatic way while trying to be FOSS friendly isn't the truth.
It can be learned in a week (so you're java programmer are totaly able to switch to python).
It's also far more respected by FOSS community (gnome project accepted python but not java components, Fedora core management tools are in python, and finally it's present in every linux/bsd/macosx distro and for each of they're supported plateform).
For an HSQLDB alternative, Sqlite is even more free (public domain and patents free), full featured, fast and light pure C. Sqlite has c, c++, java, perl, ruby, python, tcl<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... bindings, allowing it to be used by any Ooo component and by external tools on virtually any langage.
Libgda is free, fast, pure C and does all the same as JDBC.
The argument saying that OpenOffice.org choose the pragmatic way while trying to be FOSS friendly isn't the truth.
Re:java is not the only solution for those problem
Posted by: Adam Tauno Williams on March 29, 2005 04:10 AM
>Other alternatives exists that covers the needs
>expressed leading to the java requirements. For
>instance python has an OpenOffice.org binding >(PyUno), is not memory hungry, is free (as in >free speech), is really portable (java is not), >is "mature enough to use for complex tasks" and >permit even more rapid developpement (at least, >it needs far fewer lines of code for the same >thing).
So ever Windows user needs to install Python and attendant bindings? No way! Java is required for a complete desktop/workstation and on just about every corporate workstation is already there.
>For an HSQLDB alternative, Sqlite is even more >free (public domain and patents free), full >featured, fast and light pure C. Sqlite has c, >c++, java, perl, ruby, python, tcl<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... bindings, >allowing it to be used by any Ooo component and >by external tools on virtually any langage.
I've built projects on SQLite, but for an end-user general purpose database, again, No Way! SQLite is great at what it does, but it barely supports data-types (pretty much everything is a string) and large tables get very slow.
>Libgda is free, fast, pure C and does all the
>same as JDBC.
And available on all those platforms? ODBC would be a better choice than GDA.
>The argument saying that OpenOffice.org choose
>the pragmatic way while trying to be FOSS
>friendly isn't the truth.
Yes, I'm afraid it is true.
>expressed leading to the java requirements. For
>instance python has an OpenOffice.org binding >(PyUno), is not memory hungry, is free (as in >free speech), is really portable (java is not), >is "mature enough to use for complex tasks" and >permit even more rapid developpement (at least, >it needs far fewer lines of code for the same >thing).
So ever Windows user needs to install Python and attendant bindings? No way! Java is required for a complete desktop/workstation and on just about every corporate workstation is already there.
>For an HSQLDB alternative, Sqlite is even more >free (public domain and patents free), full >featured, fast and light pure C. Sqlite has c, >c++, java, perl, ruby, python, tcl<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... bindings, >allowing it to be used by any Ooo component and >by external tools on virtually any langage.
I've built projects on SQLite, but for an end-user general purpose database, again, No Way! SQLite is great at what it does, but it barely supports data-types (pretty much everything is a string) and large tables get very slow.
>Libgda is free, fast, pure C and does all the
>same as JDBC.
And available on all those platforms? ODBC would be a better choice than GDA.
>The argument saying that OpenOffice.org choose
>the pragmatic way while trying to be FOSS
>friendly isn't the truth.
Yes, I'm afraid it is true.
Re:java is not the only solution for those problem
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 05:00 AM
So ever Windows user needs to install Python and attendant bindings? No way!
Python and PyUNO are already included and embedded in Ooo (at least it was on Ooo 1.1.x). No need to install it externally. This is possible with python - and not java - because python is free, and is small enough. You don't know what you're talking about.
Java is required for a complete desktop/workstation
None of the two most used linux desktop environment (gnome and kde) use _any_ java component. Guess why ? F/OSS people don't like java. And desktop users don't need java.
Even browsers embedded jvm are dying because client side java applets made everyone angry, therefore websites stopped using this.
Python and PyUNO are already included and embedded in Ooo (at least it was on Ooo 1.1.x). No need to install it externally. This is possible with python - and not java - because python is free, and is small enough. You don't know what you're talking about.
Java is required for a complete desktop/workstation
None of the two most used linux desktop environment (gnome and kde) use _any_ java component. Guess why ? F/OSS people don't like java. And desktop users don't need java.
Even browsers embedded jvm are dying because client side java applets made everyone angry, therefore websites stopped using this.
Quit your bitching, people. I am ashamed of you calling yourselves "open source advocates" and reacting so negatively to this. Get to work improving open source java products such as GNU Classpath so that we can run this without a need for Sun's closed-source Java (if it doesn't work already) or quit complaining. At least the people working on Mono, IKVM, GNU classpath, etc have the right idea..
We're "free software advocates", moron.
Java isn't open source. Period. And won't be as long as Sun has anything to say about it.
Your argument to "work improving open source java products" is naive, perhaps you should study the Microsoft Way of Embracing and Extending Standards.
For homework: why is trying to track Microsoft APIs fruitless in the long run? Hint: Ask the WINE folks.
Your argument to "work improving open source java products" is naive, perhaps you should study the Microsoft Way of Embracing and Extending Standards.
For homework: why is trying to track Microsoft APIs fruitless in the long run? Hint: Ask the WINE folks.
C++ isn't free. You have to pay for AT&T C++, MS Visual C++, and Borland C++.
Of course, GCC implements it, so it really is.
Java *is* free, at least the subset that's supported by GCJ and GJJ/Classpath.
OpenOffice doesn't use anything that's not supported by GCC/GJJ, Fedora and Ubuntu (Debian) have the latest OpenOffice beta in their free repositories.
Of course, GCC implements it, so it really is.
Java *is* free, at least the subset that's supported by GCJ and GJJ/Classpath.
OpenOffice doesn't use anything that's not supported by GCC/GJJ, Fedora and Ubuntu (Debian) have the latest OpenOffice beta in their free repositories.
Actually, C++ is free. You pay for the various implementations of it if you like or you use Gcc but that doesn't change the fact the C++ has an ISO standard which all compilers are supposed to conform to. If you like your free to read the standard(You can't do this with Jave) and write your own compiler.
Amen brother. Java, the language, is well architected and Java, the API, is very extensive; also there is an open source implementation. The fact that Python has ONLY an open source implementation does not make it more FOSS than a language and API with both non-free and open source implementations.
Wow, you have a fundamental misunderstanding what the term F/OSS actually means.
> so that we can run this without a need for Sun's closed-source Java
Problem is that we already can build all those functionalities with open languages like Perl, Ruby or Python, where not possible/convenient in plain C. The need for a free version of Java now is exactly -zero-.
Problem is that we already can build all those functionalities with open languages like Perl, Ruby or Python, where not possible/convenient in plain C. The need for a free version of Java now is exactly -zero-.
The fork openoffice.org now, is a thing we are going to pay too...
Why do Sun has made StarOffice open-source ? To push another proprietary technology from them ? I don't think.. Or if it's true Sun is a biggest open-source enemy than Microsoft.
Why do Sun has made StarOffice open-source ? To push another proprietary technology from them ? I don't think.. Or if it's true Sun is a biggest open-source enemy than Microsoft.
I couldn't agree more. The sooner classpath/geronimo/gcj are brought up to 1.4 standard the sooner these kind of arguments will disappear. C and C++ might well have built linux/unix (both of which I strongly support) but some people these days want to code in Java. Instead of fighting them, a good open implementation (1.4ish), will just bring them on board - good all round. That way the FOSS community can leverage what these "Java heads" have to offer instead of trying to convince them that they should be learning C and C++ instead. Incidently I am not a Sun fan and am mildly distrustful of their agenda, but that shouldn't stop Open Source implementations of the language they have defined. The apache project has had no such prejudice against Java skills and I wish them a speedy build with their Geronimo project (1.4ish). Come on classpath/gcj - can you beat them to it?
I loved OpenOffice, and was ready to switch completely. Then I found myself on the road with a freshly-installed OO on my Linux open source laptop, ready to get to work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and suddenly critical features simply didn't work.
I erased the email I was about to send to my friends and family. When FireFox came out, I sent a similar email, and since I'm considered the "expert" in the family, something like fifty people switched to FireFox. I already had a partially-written recommendation, along with installation instructions, for OO. Now it's in my trash folder. I'm simply not up to explaining to my aunt Carol how to download and install Java, and why she should.
OO Team: You made two mistakes. First, you doubled the installation hassle, which for my Aunt Carol, increases the chance of trouble by 4x. I simply can't recommend it to her. Second, either it's open source or it's not, boys and girls. Get it?
Have you made sure that your "open source" laptop isn't using closed-source drivers for its graphics card? If not, how is this different from sitting on top of closed-source Java?
I can see you trolling here - this is the third time so far I see you saying the same thing - about graphics card drivers. And as hard as you might find it to believe, people do run nvidia cards with free drivers, like myself.
So incase you havent figured it out, it IS possible to run graphics cards without the proprietory drivers. Go figure, install for yourself.
So incase you havent figured it out, it IS possible to run graphics cards without the proprietory drivers. Go figure, install for yourself.
No I don't get it. Why is everyone up-in-arms about the use of the JRE? Isn't it free? Since the code is not open-source do they think Sun will charge a fee at some point?
"I'm simply not up to explaining to my aunt Carol how to download and install Java, and why she should."
This is by far the worst argument I hear over and over again. And exactly the same people don't give a damn to download and install WinZip, Acrobat Reader, Real Player, Apple Quicktime, etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
This is by far the worst argument I hear over and over again. And exactly the same people don't give a damn to download and install WinZip, Acrobat Reader, Real Player, Apple Quicktime, etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
"A developper did the feature X in java, we found it cool, so we push it in" or "We don't have enough ressources to do feature Y without java", or even "If you're unhappy, do it the way you like instead of trolling".
Those assertions points a management/decision problem. Most F/OSS projects stay very conservative while adding new features ; see the Linux kernel or apache mailing-lists: most of the patches are rejected because of design or implementations pbs, no matter what cool functionallity it adds. And never a patch tryed to inject c++ or java code in the kernel !
The charms of fastly incorporated new features should never hypnotize devs. You're not in a hurry, are you ? Have you a PHB on you're shoulder ? Corporate presure ?
All in all: if you don't have enough ressource to do something, don't do it. It's as simple as that. Don't make youre software worst than it was.
Secondary features (and therefore, community support, if community feels your soft worth it) will come later, and you're project will involve fast enough (think: the time spend by distro's repackaging without java, or to try a gcj port, won't be a time to help you, but rather a time to hate you're choices).
These Ooo's team decision shows us they're orientations models: closed source, non free, eye-candy oriented sofware that sells well (who, beside a commercial to sell a product, need a java video player in his office suite ?), corporate oriented needs to push fastly (no matter how stable, clean or usable) features (while F/OSS devs tends to do the things right, no matter how long it may take)...
And you're still wondering why the community don't help that much ?
As for the future of Ooo (inclusion of a "communication suite", mail client etc.). What are you smoking, guys ?
Those assertions points a management/decision problem. Most F/OSS projects stay very conservative while adding new features ; see the Linux kernel or apache mailing-lists: most of the patches are rejected because of design or implementations pbs, no matter what cool functionallity it adds. And never a patch tryed to inject c++ or java code in the kernel !
The charms of fastly incorporated new features should never hypnotize devs. You're not in a hurry, are you ? Have you a PHB on you're shoulder ? Corporate presure ?
All in all: if you don't have enough ressource to do something, don't do it. It's as simple as that. Don't make youre software worst than it was.
Secondary features (and therefore, community support, if community feels your soft worth it) will come later, and you're project will involve fast enough (think: the time spend by distro's repackaging without java, or to try a gcj port, won't be a time to help you, but rather a time to hate you're choices).
These Ooo's team decision shows us they're orientations models: closed source, non free, eye-candy oriented sofware that sells well (who, beside a commercial to sell a product, need a java video player in his office suite ?), corporate oriented needs to push fastly (no matter how stable, clean or usable) features (while F/OSS devs tends to do the things right, no matter how long it may take)...
And you're still wondering why the community don't help that much ?
As for the future of Ooo (inclusion of a "communication suite", mail client etc.). What are you smoking, guys ?
KOffice is fast, easy and more polished in its interface than StarOffice. With QT gone GPL (even for Windowz now), this is a valid choice.
And it uses Kparts!
And it uses Kparts!
I'd sooner go proprietary than use koffice. Someday, when I can open a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc file in koffice, maybe I'll use it. I have yet to find one that opens in koffice.
For one: join in and help. For two: I open DOC files all the time, maybe your distro is broken, or you tried it five years ago?
1. Join in and help? This is your answer to someone pointing out that it's not as easy as people purport it to be? Maybe it should be written "Easy for developers"...?
2. I'm happy you've found a way to hack<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc support into your instance of koffice. When distributions provide it ready-to-go, then maybe then they can say that the linux desktop is ready for use by those new to linux.
2. I'm happy you've found a way to hack<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc support into your instance of koffice. When distributions provide it ready-to-go, then maybe then they can say that the linux desktop is ready for use by those new to linux.
I'm not the other poster, but I've had problems with Koffice also. Problems with<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc files and problems that files saved to pdf couldn't be opened by Acrobat Reader on windows. The same exact file saved as a postscript file then converted using ps2pdf opened fine with Acrobat reader on windows. Also, the same file saved by OpenOffice (0.9.x, 0.9.7 maybe) to pdf was able to be opened with Acrobat reader on Windows. KOffice couldn't do it. Don't know why.
You install an office suite, you expect it to work. You install it and it works fine on a few small original files, and then chokes when you need it for something big and a deadline looming, you don't use it anymore. Beta testing is one thing. Using it for production use and getting stuck is a different story. One not to be repeated.
You install an office suite, you expect it to work. You install it and it works fine on a few small original files, and then chokes when you need it for something big and a deadline looming, you don't use it anymore. Beta testing is one thing. Using it for production use and getting stuck is a different story. One not to be repeated.
As long as I get this, koffice is out for newbies
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 07:49 AMKonqueror: Error: couldn't create slave: Cannot talk to klauncher
That's what someone migrating from Windows needs, to have<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.dcop crashing randomly when opening tabs or opening a bookmark in konqueror. Especially when konqueror is used also as a file browser.
Up to the latest kde in sarge, inluding two previous point releases that came through sarge sources, and the problem is still there. Don't know how to trace the problem, no help available searching the email archives, no help on #kde-user, #debian, #debian-kde, and a few other channels I tried on.
Konqueror and KDE are great when they work. Having to figure out a way to save your work and then closing everything down and rebooting (or killing kdm) so that you can bring back ALL the KDE apps that depend on a non-crashed dcop on the other hand is not great.
Using an office suite that relies on KDE to run is not such a good idea, especially when so many other apps rely on KDE. An office suite that is independent of KDE is a better idea, at least until more developers are working on kde so that the help is there when its needed.
Thanks for the KDE project though. Stick to your core competencies and it will get better. If KOffice could be made to work without relying on KDE's dcop (or other underlying structure of kde) then it might be a different situation worth considering.
Re:As long as I get this, koffice is out for newbi
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 10:55 AM
Try to swicth away from debian - or use gnome.
They have an issue with KDE., no matter whgat they say about it.
KDE works flawlessly in "normal" distributions.
They have an issue with KDE., no matter whgat they say about it.
KDE works flawlessly in "normal" distributions.
Re:As long as I get this, koffice is out for newbi
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 31, 2005 04:03 AM"...switch away from Debian... KDE works flawlessly in 'normal' distributions"
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
I use it every day in my ArchLinux without any problem.
In this case, Mandrakesoft Inc. and Suse Inc. can't be cited as examples of FOSS position. If they are allowed to distribute a sun jre or jdk, they must have commercial agreements with Sun. This happened because they disallow redistributions of they're products. They are commercial distros.
Really free (I mean "community") distributions (Fedora core, Debian, Slackware, Unbutu, Gentoo, *BSD,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...) can't do this because of stupid's Sun position on jdk/jre disallow them the right to distribute it (yes, it's not only a matter of nonfree licence). So yes, we can call your choice a betrayal.
Really free (I mean "community") distributions (Fedora core, Debian, Slackware, Unbutu, Gentoo, *BSD,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...) can't do this because of stupid's Sun position on jdk/jre disallow them the right to distribute it (yes, it's not only a matter of nonfree licence). So yes, we can call your choice a betrayal.
In this case, Mandrakesoft Inc. and Suse Inc. can't be cited as examples of FOSS position. If they are allowed to distribute a sun jre or jdk, they must have commercial agreements with Sun. This happened because they disallow redistributions of they're products. They are commercial distros.
You seem to confuse Free vs non-Free with commercial vs non-commercial.
While Mandrakesoft is a commercial company, and they distribution commercial versions of their Linux distribution, which included some non-Free software (drivers, browser plugins, JRE/JDK etc), Mandrakelinux (ie the download/publicly available versions) is entirely Free Software (non non-Free software is allowed in the distribution, nor software that depends on other non-Free software).
I note that Mandrakelinux will not currently ship OpenOffice.org 2.0, but 1.1.4.
BTW, Ubuntu (well, Canonical) is just as commercial as Mandrakesoft is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Please check your facts before you FUD.
You seem to confuse Free vs non-Free with commercial vs non-commercial.
While Mandrakesoft is a commercial company, and they distribution commercial versions of their Linux distribution, which included some non-Free software (drivers, browser plugins, JRE/JDK etc), Mandrakelinux (ie the download/publicly available versions) is entirely Free Software (non non-Free software is allowed in the distribution, nor software that depends on other non-Free software).
I note that Mandrakelinux will not currently ship OpenOffice.org 2.0, but 1.1.4.
BTW, Ubuntu (well, Canonical) is just as commercial as Mandrakesoft is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Please check your facts before you FUD.
I'd like to know how many of these "defenders of the faith", who rail whenever any open source software sits on top of Java, are themselves running XWindows on top of closed-source drivers from ATI/NVidia.
You don't complain when sitting on top of closed-source hardware, why make such a fuss when sitting on top of a closed-source virtual machine?
You don't complain when sitting on top of closed-source hardware, why make such a fuss when sitting on top of a closed-source virtual machine?
Didn't you noticed that X.org (and XFree, and Linux kernel) projects include free drivers for thoses ?
We all use this: because it's free, because it's included on our distro while nvidia/ati close source drivers are not (on Debian, Fedora, *BSD etc., and even Suse). Because nvidia/ati binarys convey all badness from proprietary software: at first, they cannot follow the basics needs of compliance (those drivers won't work with recent Linux kernels, with BSD systems, with non x86 hardware, aren't release frequently, are full of bugs).
We all use this: because it's free, because it's included on our distro while nvidia/ati close source drivers are not (on Debian, Fedora, *BSD etc., and even Suse). Because nvidia/ati binarys convey all badness from proprietary software: at first, they cannot follow the basics needs of compliance (those drivers won't work with recent Linux kernels, with BSD systems, with non x86 hardware, aren't release frequently, are full of bugs).
Not worth feeding the troll, he's been posting several comments like these with the exact same shit.
I use free X.org drivers with my nvidia card. they work perfectly fine.
I use free X.org drivers with my nvidia card. they work perfectly fine.
"I use free X.org drivers with my nvidia card. they work perfectly fine. "
Until the superGUIs everyone's clamoring for come along.
Until the superGUIs everyone's clamoring for come along.
Well, no doubt you are some video-gaming addict that just isn't able to use a computer without a 3D driver running full speed. But, in response to your troll here and the half-dozen you've posted above as responses to others here is information that some people may find useful:
From X.org X11R6.8.2 announcement: <a href="http://www.x.org/X11_latest_release.html" title="x.org">http://www.x.org/X11_latest_release.html</a x.org>
- ATI R100 video driver
- ATI "radeon" video driver
- ATI Rage128 video driver
- Intel i810 video driver
- Mesa (OpenGL) update to release 6.2
- Fixes to the pseudocolor emulation layer (currently only used by the Neomagic driver.)
- "nv" (Nvidia) video driver
Is there full and complete free+open source drivers for every video card? No, but there are enough free+open source drivers for people that just need to get work done.
You might keep your eye on these projects as well:
DRI Project: <a href="http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/" title="freedesktop.org">http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/</a freedesktop.org>
Utah-GLX: <a href="http://utah-glx.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net">http://utah-glx.sourceforge.net/</a sourceforge.net>
Open Graphics: <a href="http://wiki.duskglow.com/index.php/Open-Graphics" title="duskglow.com">http://wiki.duskglow.com/index.php/Open-Graphics</a duskglow.com>
From X.org X11R6.8.2 announcement: <a href="http://www.x.org/X11_latest_release.html" title="x.org">http://www.x.org/X11_latest_release.html</a x.org>
- ATI R100 video driver
- ATI "radeon" video driver
- ATI Rage128 video driver
- Intel i810 video driver
- Mesa (OpenGL) update to release 6.2
- Fixes to the pseudocolor emulation layer (currently only used by the Neomagic driver.)
- "nv" (Nvidia) video driver
Is there full and complete free+open source drivers for every video card? No, but there are enough free+open source drivers for people that just need to get work done.
You might keep your eye on these projects as well:
DRI Project: <a href="http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/" title="freedesktop.org">http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/</a freedesktop.org>
Utah-GLX: <a href="http://utah-glx.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net">http://utah-glx.sourceforge.net/</a sourceforge.net>
Open Graphics: <a href="http://wiki.duskglow.com/index.php/Open-Graphics" title="duskglow.com">http://wiki.duskglow.com/index.php/Open-Graphics</a duskglow.com>
It's a Java developer or fanboy trying to justify Java by bringing up nVidia drivers.
I don't use the proprietary nVidia drivers either. And a while back I made a decision to stop buying nVidia video cards because of this. It doesn't matter what other video card companies' practices are on open/closed drivers. I singled out nVidia because of their position on drivers, and haven't purchased an nVidia card in more than 4 years. Should nVidia start to release details on their hardware that enables Free Software developers to write open drivers, then I may decide to add nVidia back into my purchasing decisions. But if other video card manufacturers release details before nVidia and are competitive in their quality, then nVidia will never again be acceptable as a video card supplier for my needs, my family's small businesses needs, or to others whom I recommend hardware to.
The same is true with Intel, AMD, and the BIOS situation. AMD is somewhat cooperating with GNU efforts at a <A HREF="http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/free-bios.html" title="fsf.org">Free Software BIOS</a fsf.org>. Due to Intel's stance on locking up the BIOS, I won't buy a computer that uses an Intel processor anymore. I won't buy motherboards that use Intel cpus, I won't buy Intel cpus. I won't buy Intel ethernet cards. I'm supporting AMD instead. So it is AMD powered computers, AMD cpus, motherboards that use AMD cpus. And alternate ethernet cards that don't use Intel chips. And though I've stopped buying IBM hardware for other reasons earlier, I won't buy IBM hardware either because of their help in locking up the BIOS through "trusted computing" and the digital restrictions management that the MPAA/RIAA is force feeding to everyone, and in which Microsoft sees a lock-in opportunity.
So stop spamming Newsforge about nVidia drivers to justify your love of Java. Some of us are making a concerted effort to support Free Software including the situation with nVidia drivers. Your problem is that not only is Java non-free, but it is an absolute horror in resources, so much so that it has virtually disappeared as a web object on web sites, and any company that depends on Java to run their software (application servers are a different animal) risks being shunned in the world market.
Does Exxon know that I, a former Exxon customer stopped buying Exxon gas since they put a drunk in charge of an oil tanker without a backup? No. Have they lost thousands of dollars in sales to me since then? Yes. Will I hurt them financially? No. Are there others out there like me who have done the same thing? Without a doubt. Are we collectively hitting their bottom line, enough for them to notice? According to a survey made public in the last couple of years, they are aware of estimates of how big a hit they are still taking on it.
Intel may be a huge company with monopoly practices. But they were forced to respond to AMD's superior Opteron by developing 64 bit extensions for their server cpus and now maybe even their desktop cpus in a secret program while they denied it until they announced products. The companies can deny it is having an effect all they want. The only thing that matters is the tipping point. nVidia's tipping point hasn't been reached yet. I suspect Intel's tipping point will be reached before nVidia's.
As for OpenOffice and Java? It may be in there now. It may even be in there a year from now. But a year from now there will be other choices equivalent to OpenOffice, and there will be options available for OpenOffice itself without Java. And a year or two from now Sun won't have the funds to keep paying for OpenOffice development anyway so it doesn't matter in the end. That's the point that the Java developers are missing. Java is in OpenOffice because Sun is paying for some development and in the current working environment, the developers working on OpenOffice don't see a problem with using Java. When Sun is paying for a monoculture, what do you expect? Doesn't matter if the developers who are implementing Java aren't directly paid for by Sun. You recruit Java developers, you don't get python or perl. You encourage Java developers to join the effort and ignore the Free Software skilled developer inquiries about joining/help, what do you get? There are many ways to end up with a Java product. Some outright, some subtle. The result in the end is what counts.
What Sun can't fight, what Microsoft can't fight, what Java fanboys can't fight, is that because of the pedigree of Java, and because of what Java is, there will always be developers who refuse to use it, and developers who decide to work on another project instead. OpenOffice is a killer app in its category. But Free Software counts on one thing for development. Good will. Because if there is no good will in a Free Software project, it won't survive in the long run. If there are paid developers, proprietary software moves forward. If there are paid developers on a Free Software project, it moves faster. But once a project adopts a technology that kills its good will, a technology that some in the community hate, a technology that is not usable outside the US due to older hardware with less resources, what do you have? You have a project that is going to be forked, or another project with developer good will that will surpass OpenOffice.
Sun continues to lose revenue and market share. It wouldn't surprise me to see Fujitsu pass them this year in market share. Yeah, you read that right, Fujitsu. Sun's free spending days are over. Their financial support of OpenOffice will only continue if they continue to see an advantage for them in it, and if their income supports justification for paying OpenOffice developers. Seeing where Sun is going with Java, Seeing how Sun is fighting Linux with Solaris instead of joining the rest of the world movement to Linux, Sun won't be around long enough to continue paying for OpenOffice developers in the long run. And with OpenOffice developers' use of Java now, they are killing the good will they have among the community. Not only are Sun's days numbered, but so is Java/OpenOffice's.
Sun developers, get your resumes ready. Start making calls today. The Linux community can use your help anytime you decide to join the winning team. Pick up the phone and start making calls today. Don't leave your destiny in the hands of Scott and the rest of Sun management. They are leading you off a cliff. It isn't going to be pretty at the bottom. Scott and the rest of the suits are sure to walk away millionaires. What about you? Don't have a golden parachute? Make the decision today. Take the next step in your career. Make the smart move. Start marketing yourself to Linux companies. Now. Do it today.
I don't use the proprietary nVidia drivers either. And a while back I made a decision to stop buying nVidia video cards because of this. It doesn't matter what other video card companies' practices are on open/closed drivers. I singled out nVidia because of their position on drivers, and haven't purchased an nVidia card in more than 4 years. Should nVidia start to release details on their hardware that enables Free Software developers to write open drivers, then I may decide to add nVidia back into my purchasing decisions. But if other video card manufacturers release details before nVidia and are competitive in their quality, then nVidia will never again be acceptable as a video card supplier for my needs, my family's small businesses needs, or to others whom I recommend hardware to.
The same is true with Intel, AMD, and the BIOS situation. AMD is somewhat cooperating with GNU efforts at a <A HREF="http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/free-bios.html" title="fsf.org">Free Software BIOS</a fsf.org>. Due to Intel's stance on locking up the BIOS, I won't buy a computer that uses an Intel processor anymore. I won't buy motherboards that use Intel cpus, I won't buy Intel cpus. I won't buy Intel ethernet cards. I'm supporting AMD instead. So it is AMD powered computers, AMD cpus, motherboards that use AMD cpus. And alternate ethernet cards that don't use Intel chips. And though I've stopped buying IBM hardware for other reasons earlier, I won't buy IBM hardware either because of their help in locking up the BIOS through "trusted computing" and the digital restrictions management that the MPAA/RIAA is force feeding to everyone, and in which Microsoft sees a lock-in opportunity.
So stop spamming Newsforge about nVidia drivers to justify your love of Java. Some of us are making a concerted effort to support Free Software including the situation with nVidia drivers. Your problem is that not only is Java non-free, but it is an absolute horror in resources, so much so that it has virtually disappeared as a web object on web sites, and any company that depends on Java to run their software (application servers are a different animal) risks being shunned in the world market.
Does Exxon know that I, a former Exxon customer stopped buying Exxon gas since they put a drunk in charge of an oil tanker without a backup? No. Have they lost thousands of dollars in sales to me since then? Yes. Will I hurt them financially? No. Are there others out there like me who have done the same thing? Without a doubt. Are we collectively hitting their bottom line, enough for them to notice? According to a survey made public in the last couple of years, they are aware of estimates of how big a hit they are still taking on it.
Intel may be a huge company with monopoly practices. But they were forced to respond to AMD's superior Opteron by developing 64 bit extensions for their server cpus and now maybe even their desktop cpus in a secret program while they denied it until they announced products. The companies can deny it is having an effect all they want. The only thing that matters is the tipping point. nVidia's tipping point hasn't been reached yet. I suspect Intel's tipping point will be reached before nVidia's.
As for OpenOffice and Java? It may be in there now. It may even be in there a year from now. But a year from now there will be other choices equivalent to OpenOffice, and there will be options available for OpenOffice itself without Java. And a year or two from now Sun won't have the funds to keep paying for OpenOffice development anyway so it doesn't matter in the end. That's the point that the Java developers are missing. Java is in OpenOffice because Sun is paying for some development and in the current working environment, the developers working on OpenOffice don't see a problem with using Java. When Sun is paying for a monoculture, what do you expect? Doesn't matter if the developers who are implementing Java aren't directly paid for by Sun. You recruit Java developers, you don't get python or perl. You encourage Java developers to join the effort and ignore the Free Software skilled developer inquiries about joining/help, what do you get? There are many ways to end up with a Java product. Some outright, some subtle. The result in the end is what counts.
What Sun can't fight, what Microsoft can't fight, what Java fanboys can't fight, is that because of the pedigree of Java, and because of what Java is, there will always be developers who refuse to use it, and developers who decide to work on another project instead. OpenOffice is a killer app in its category. But Free Software counts on one thing for development. Good will. Because if there is no good will in a Free Software project, it won't survive in the long run. If there are paid developers, proprietary software moves forward. If there are paid developers on a Free Software project, it moves faster. But once a project adopts a technology that kills its good will, a technology that some in the community hate, a technology that is not usable outside the US due to older hardware with less resources, what do you have? You have a project that is going to be forked, or another project with developer good will that will surpass OpenOffice.
Sun continues to lose revenue and market share. It wouldn't surprise me to see Fujitsu pass them this year in market share. Yeah, you read that right, Fujitsu. Sun's free spending days are over. Their financial support of OpenOffice will only continue if they continue to see an advantage for them in it, and if their income supports justification for paying OpenOffice developers. Seeing where Sun is going with Java, Seeing how Sun is fighting Linux with Solaris instead of joining the rest of the world movement to Linux, Sun won't be around long enough to continue paying for OpenOffice developers in the long run. And with OpenOffice developers' use of Java now, they are killing the good will they have among the community. Not only are Sun's days numbered, but so is Java/OpenOffice's.
Sun developers, get your resumes ready. Start making calls today. The Linux community can use your help anytime you decide to join the winning team. Pick up the phone and start making calls today. Don't leave your destiny in the hands of Scott and the rest of Sun management. They are leading you off a cliff. It isn't going to be pretty at the bottom. Scott and the rest of the suits are sure to walk away millionaires. What about you? Don't have a golden parachute? Make the decision today. Take the next step in your career. Make the smart move. Start marketing yourself to Linux companies. Now. Do it today.
What you speak of reminds me of India's struggle for freedom from an imperialist Britain. A Gandhi alone wouldn't have been able to throw them off, but the combined will of the people did it. Finally.
British goods were boycotted. There were huge bonfires of British cloth in every square, every village. Everybody reverted to home-spun Khadi. There was the Salt satyagraha (the Dandi March, google it), the August revolution, and the Quit India movement.
Correlate this to closed source, freedom-choking copyrights (read: your RIAA/MPAA trash) and innovation-strangling patents. Wouldn't the Gandhian way lead us to a better future?
-clueless, as on Groklaw.
British goods were boycotted. There were huge bonfires of British cloth in every square, every village. Everybody reverted to home-spun Khadi. There was the Salt satyagraha (the Dandi March, google it), the August revolution, and the Quit India movement.
Correlate this to closed source, freedom-choking copyrights (read: your RIAA/MPAA trash) and innovation-strangling patents. Wouldn't the Gandhian way lead us to a better future?
-clueless, as on Groklaw.
"Is there full and complete free+open source drivers for every video card? No, but there are enough free+open source drivers for people that just need to get work done."
Just as long as *work* doesn't require Hardware accelerated OpenGL. Or were you under the impression that everyone who's using the Nvida driver is a gamer?
Just as long as *work* doesn't require Hardware accelerated OpenGL. Or were you under the impression that everyone who's using the Nvida driver is a gamer?
But then again, I also don't think Linux is ready for everyone to use.
Closed source drivers are a problem!
Hope ATI/Nvidia will open their drivers too!
It's really important to stay true to the open-source filosofy. Only then the future stays free!
Think about the long term! How do you want to use your computer in 20 years? Do you want to stay in control or not?
Open source is extremely important for the future of computing!
Hope ATI/Nvidia will open their drivers too!
It's really important to stay true to the open-source filosofy. Only then the future stays free!
Think about the long term! How do you want to use your computer in 20 years? Do you want to stay in control or not?
Open source is extremely important for the future of computing!
As I understand it, in the old MIT AI lab where communist code sharing was running rampant, the idea of copyleft -- code whose only restriction was that you couldn't horde it -- was born because companies would fork a free project, extend it but keep the extensions secret. Thus, the free project became the unwashed step-sister, of no import compared to the commercial version. To add insult to injury, the commercial version was protected by expensive lawyers, so that the free project could be effectively locked out from matching the features in the commercial version.
Do you see a pattern here? The same thing is now happening to Free Software, only it's happening at the distribution level. The GPL protects the individual projects, but the FOSS-only distributions are being wedged out by proprietary technologies like Java, multimedia standards, and binary device drivers. Only the proprietary distributions like SUSE and Sun's JDS will be able to compete for enterprise use.
Is it any wonder that Sun 'sees no evil' in depending on Java? It's because it gives JDS a leg up, and leverages purchases of large Java licenses by companies like Novell. If you want your distro to have a functional office suite, you have to distribute Java, which means money and power for Sun.
I hope Sun would prove me wrong by producing a JRE/JDK that can be distributed by by any distribution.
Do you see a pattern here? The same thing is now happening to Free Software, only it's happening at the distribution level. The GPL protects the individual projects, but the FOSS-only distributions are being wedged out by proprietary technologies like Java, multimedia standards, and binary device drivers. Only the proprietary distributions like SUSE and Sun's JDS will be able to compete for enterprise use.
Is it any wonder that Sun 'sees no evil' in depending on Java? It's because it gives JDS a leg up, and leverages purchases of large Java licenses by companies like Novell. If you want your distro to have a functional office suite, you have to distribute Java, which means money and power for Sun.
I hope Sun would prove me wrong by producing a JRE/JDK that can be distributed by by any distribution.
Only the proprietary distributions like SUSE and Sun's JDS will be able to compete for enterprise use.
That's why we have to promote Debian, KNOPPIX, Kannotix and SimplyMEPIS. The restrictive licenses for SUSE, MDK and RH drove me to a Debian clone. To use their products I might has well return to Windows and forget Linux.
RedHat distros are all free software and they make
the source available to anybody, even though they
only have to make it available to their customers.
That's why CentOS, the RH ES clone, can exist.
RH is a free software company. Just because you
can't download a RH binary don't lump them in with
the others, who, by including proprietary code, lock
you into their distros.
Karl
the source available to anybody, even though they
only have to make it available to their customers.
That's why CentOS, the RH ES clone, can exist.
RH is a free software company. Just because you
can't download a RH binary don't lump them in with
the others, who, by including proprietary code, lock
you into their distros.
Karl
Isnt the big complaint against fedora/rh is because they dont ship mp3/java etc support. Now they are being called proprietary? pick which one your going to bash them for and stick with that arguement, flip flopping them like this isnt good for your fud.
And there is also Ubuntu, which is committed to Free Software. It's an excellent distro with a great community and a Debian base. And releases every 6 months.
Wait for their second release this April 6th, and give it a try. they provide LiveCDs as well.
Wait for their second release this April 6th, and give it a try. they provide LiveCDs as well.
As I understand it, in the old MIT AI lab where communist code sharing was running rampant
you don't
you don't
Ummm, let's see. OpenOffice.org is sponsored by Sun and Java is a Sun product. I don't see any connection here, do you?
Seriously, Sun is obviously trying to leverage its Java product. Why shouldn't they? Whether or not it's good for FOSS is a separate question.
The answer is that it's not: it's a proprietary product that should be avoided. We have seen from the recent VB6 fiasco what happens when developers rely on proprietary development tools.
Seriously, Sun is obviously trying to leverage its Java product. Why shouldn't they? Whether or not it's good for FOSS is a separate question.
The answer is that it's not: it's a proprietary product that should be avoided. We have seen from the recent VB6 fiasco what happens when developers rely on proprietary development tools.
The real question is, why are they still developing in legacy languages such as C/C++? The days of slow Java are far behind us and it makes me cry to think of all the lost hours people have spent reinventing wheels in C++ and chasing obscure bugs that would be trivial to find in Java.
Then why has every Java app I've ever used been slower than a tortoise and a huge memory hog?
Some say it's because it's poorly written Java code. Or it's Swing's fault. But if the GUI library is so bad, and the language itself makes it so hard for a majority of developers to write an efficient program, then there is a serious flaw.
Simply as a user, I'll take an efficient C or C++ based app any day over a bloated, buggy, slow Java based app.
Yeah, OpenOffice is mostly C++, but OO is running it's own runtime, and is a huge hog. Then add slow, bloated JRE to run features, then you have an unsuable app on anything less than a 2GHz cpu and 512meg memory. No thanks.
I'll use OO on Windows as a cheap replacement for bloated, buggy, badly overpriced MSOffice. But I'll gladly use KOffice or Abiword and Gnumeric over OO when on Linux or any other platform.
Some say it's because it's poorly written Java code. Or it's Swing's fault. But if the GUI library is so bad, and the language itself makes it so hard for a majority of developers to write an efficient program, then there is a serious flaw.
Simply as a user, I'll take an efficient C or C++ based app any day over a bloated, buggy, slow Java based app.
Yeah, OpenOffice is mostly C++, but OO is running it's own runtime, and is a huge hog. Then add slow, bloated JRE to run features, then you have an unsuable app on anything less than a 2GHz cpu and 512meg memory. No thanks.
I'll use OO on Windows as a cheap replacement for bloated, buggy, badly overpriced MSOffice. But I'll gladly use KOffice or Abiword and Gnumeric over OO when on Linux or any other platform.
You cry when thinking about programming languages? I recommend finding a more emotionally satisfying hobby.
First off, C/C++ isn't a "legacy" system. It's a robust, modern, and actively developed system. There's a reason that products written in Java aren't very popular. They require third party software to run, they require a lot of memory, and they're slower than native code. There is no arguing this. You have to translate Java bytecode into native code through a hefty abstraction layer (the VM) to get it to run.
Maybe you waste many hours "reinventing wheels", but serious programmers do not do this. You reimplement if what is out there already is broken.
Truth is that OO is slow code, and the Java sections are much worse. It requires more memory and more CPU to run than MS Office, crashes more often, and has less features. Now you introduce even more areas for all of these problems to manifest by relying more heavily on the use of a VM internal to your C++ project.
The features that they wrote in Java are some of the show-stoppers to business use. Mail merge, wizards, an Access competitor, etc, are things that many businesses were waiting for before switching. But now you need to roll out Java and upgrade systems to make it useable. So much for getting more life out of the existing hardware. Many companies will just opt for buying MS Office preinstalled with their machines, since it doesn't cost much more to have it included.
Sigh... when will the people running projects like OO and Mozilla learn to stop adding all these completely useless features, the egotistical coding (ie: screw what works faster/what the bulk of the project is in, I'm using Python/Perl/Java/etc because I say it's better.), and in general silliness like themeing and integrating email or chat clients. Just finish the damned application before going on these bloat-fests.
Maybe you waste many hours "reinventing wheels", but serious programmers do not do this. You reimplement if what is out there already is broken.
Truth is that OO is slow code, and the Java sections are much worse. It requires more memory and more CPU to run than MS Office, crashes more often, and has less features. Now you introduce even more areas for all of these problems to manifest by relying more heavily on the use of a VM internal to your C++ project.
The features that they wrote in Java are some of the show-stoppers to business use. Mail merge, wizards, an Access competitor, etc, are things that many businesses were waiting for before switching. But now you need to roll out Java and upgrade systems to make it useable. So much for getting more life out of the existing hardware. Many companies will just opt for buying MS Office preinstalled with their machines, since it doesn't cost much more to have it included.
Sigh... when will the people running projects like OO and Mozilla learn to stop adding all these completely useless features, the egotistical coding (ie: screw what works faster/what the bulk of the project is in, I'm using Python/Perl/Java/etc because I say it's better.), and in general silliness like themeing and integrating email or chat clients. Just finish the damned application before going on these bloat-fests.
I'd have to disagree with your pointing of Mozilla as an example. They've realized their wrong-doings and are now making much lighterweight applications like Firefox and Thunderbird.
Also, Chatzilla was a side project not developed by Mozilla.
Also, Chatzilla was a side project not developed by Mozilla.
Hippyness aside, Java runs like ass and is a major bitch to install.
That's why I don't use Limewire.
Even after the 3 hours it takes me to figure out how to get that aweful program working, it still runs like I'm using a 386. No, 1ghz isn't the fastest system around. But that's not putting things in perspective. A frickin 1ghz system should be able to run something no more complicated than a file browser.
Why they would split up the program to use this aweful and worthless "technology" is beyond me.
It's already slow enough. It takes like a full frickin minute to load. Microsoft Office loads in an eyeblink.
It even loads MS Office faster when I run it in Wine.
That's why I don't use Limewire.
Even after the 3 hours it takes me to figure out how to get that aweful program working, it still runs like I'm using a 386. No, 1ghz isn't the fastest system around. But that's not putting things in perspective. A frickin 1ghz system should be able to run something no more complicated than a file browser.
Why they would split up the program to use this aweful and worthless "technology" is beyond me.
It's already slow enough. It takes like a full frickin minute to load. Microsoft Office loads in an eyeblink.
It even loads MS Office faster when I run it in Wine.
Um, no, Limewire is what's slow.
First time: Linux community and Java Community
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 03:22 AM
Something of interest is happening there.
Until now the two community lived in parralel without the real need to cross each other.
Linux users where used to a free desktop with virtually no java software. Even if they did java for daily job (java has, imho, a place for corporate use, while it is still to determine if it fits on FOSS distros, desktop and crucial softwares), they wasn't forced to make the connexion.
Java community was more often open to Linux/Free software precepts, and produced many free products (among them: jakarta, tomcat, eclipse,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...). But those products were easy to avoid for Linux users and distributions that didn't like them (all have good free alternatives or are pointless outside an already heavyly javatized application server).
Now we see the for the first time a real crossing. Linus/free software community is -for real- confronted to the need of java for a crucial part of theyre world (like is the office suite).
The F/OSS community feels now urged to have a position uppon java, and to claim it, because of this sudden forced confrontation.
The reactions on OpenOffice.org are the first symptoms of F/OSS community disliking java, and forced to deffend his position.
We now see what is the FOSS community opinion upon java. Sun won't anymore be able to claim that FOSS loves and supports java.
Until now the two community lived in parralel without the real need to cross each other.
Linux users where used to a free desktop with virtually no java software. Even if they did java for daily job (java has, imho, a place for corporate use, while it is still to determine if it fits on FOSS distros, desktop and crucial softwares), they wasn't forced to make the connexion.
Java community was more often open to Linux/Free software precepts, and produced many free products (among them: jakarta, tomcat, eclipse,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...). But those products were easy to avoid for Linux users and distributions that didn't like them (all have good free alternatives or are pointless outside an already heavyly javatized application server).
Now we see the for the first time a real crossing. Linus/free software community is -for real- confronted to the need of java for a crucial part of theyre world (like is the office suite).
The F/OSS community feels now urged to have a position uppon java, and to claim it, because of this sudden forced confrontation.
The reactions on OpenOffice.org are the first symptoms of F/OSS community disliking java, and forced to deffend his position.
We now see what is the FOSS community opinion upon java. Sun won't anymore be able to claim that FOSS loves and supports java.
I guess the time has come to fork OpenOffice to get a true community version. Eventually the powers that be trying to hijack community contributions for their private goals will either get the hint, of find themselves supplanted by a new project. Forks are very very nice to keep peopl honest.
Kind of knew this would happen--the slippery slope
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 03:42 AM
Well, now we are officially on the slippery slope.
Those who value convenience above freedom (at times, myself included) will now find their "open source" software more and more like proprietary software. The corporations who are behind the making of this software have never had much use for the communist-smelling values of free software, and it has long just been a matter of time before the leverage appeared with which to pull "open source" software into the realm of the proprietary, where real money can be made.
Guess it's Abiword now for me. I've been using Gnumeric anyway (better product in my view). And it's time for me to take a hard look at everything else that isn't community developed. Because anything that isn't is sooner or later headed down this same path (this being just an early step).
This pattern isn't really new, by the way. Take a look at the history of pretty much any public resource and witness how it was eventually, bit by bit, bought off and then used against the public interest. Because so few people will stand on their principles, especially when change is incremental. When done slowly, people just let it slide. Then sometime later they wake up and realize that the revolution is over, and they helped kill it.
Calvin
Those who value convenience above freedom (at times, myself included) will now find their "open source" software more and more like proprietary software. The corporations who are behind the making of this software have never had much use for the communist-smelling values of free software, and it has long just been a matter of time before the leverage appeared with which to pull "open source" software into the realm of the proprietary, where real money can be made.
Guess it's Abiword now for me. I've been using Gnumeric anyway (better product in my view). And it's time for me to take a hard look at everything else that isn't community developed. Because anything that isn't is sooner or later headed down this same path (this being just an early step).
This pattern isn't really new, by the way. Take a look at the history of pretty much any public resource and witness how it was eventually, bit by bit, bought off and then used against the public interest. Because so few people will stand on their principles, especially when change is incremental. When done slowly, people just let it slide. Then sometime later they wake up and realize that the revolution is over, and they helped kill it.
Calvin
A solid, well written article. Except for the
conclusion.
Meanwhile, no one is talking to anyone else in terms that everybody can
understand. The entire community is poorer for it.
The parties involved are so narrowly focused that
they don't understand what the other side is saying? Not. Both sides know
exactly what the other's
position is. It's not like we all live in our own cave and never come
out. The free software advocates have not had to suffer from lack of
functionality because they've decided to used only free software? The
Java proponents have not had
to struggle with binary-only libraries, licensing restrictions, and
vendor lock-in. I don't think so.
Each side is making it's choice, thinking they
know the tradeoffs involved. IMO those
who choose convienience over freedom are
paying too high a price, or simply gambling
that the free software community will pull
their chestunts from the fire before it
gets too hot.
It's ridiculous to conclude
that it's all a big misunderstanding.
I don't think the author really believes this
either, I think he just wanted to write something
pithy to wrap-up the article. A better conclusion would be:
Once again we see the powerful forces which draw people away from freedom. Only time will tell which approach will prevail. The tradewinds seem to be be blowing in the direction of Free software, but there will always be those who benefit without wanting to contribute. It will
be interesting to see how much benefit can be gained and whether the free-riding will help or
hinder the Free software movement.
Karl O. Pinc <kop@meme.com>
i think you have a very good point Karl. as another poster pointed out, why make software worse!
sun's people have done amazing things like contributing beautiful code to FS community. perhaps we need to remember that sun is a collection of people who are often subjugated by sun's authority, yet these people *are not* sun. please don't knock the hackers working for sun. sure, some of them may be borgs but i'd bet that most of them are fS hackers!
if openoffice.org is to thrive, it will have to be FS--if it isn't going to be FS then it should simply change its name to "sun/microsoft office."
sun's people have done amazing things like contributing beautiful code to FS community. perhaps we need to remember that sun is a collection of people who are often subjugated by sun's authority, yet these people *are not* sun. please don't knock the hackers working for sun. sure, some of them may be borgs but i'd bet that most of them are fS hackers!
if openoffice.org is to thrive, it will have to be FS--if it isn't going to be FS then it should simply change its name to "sun/microsoft office."
I'm sorry to hear that you didn't like the conclusion. Maybe you have to dig as much as I did to get either side to refute the other in its own terms to understand why I wrote what I did.
But, at any rate, the article is meant as a piece of reporting, not as an editorial, so your revision wouldn't work. The article wasn't written to tell people what to think -- it was written to tell people what was happening. Clearly, you reached a firm opinion without me trying to cram my opinion down your throat, so why should I do so?
But, at any rate, the article is meant as a piece of reporting, not as an editorial, so your revision wouldn't work. The article wasn't written to tell people what to think -- it was written to tell people what was happening. Clearly, you reached a firm opinion without me trying to cram my opinion down your throat, so why should I do so?
Your quite right. My conclusion
does tell the reader what to think,
and this is not a good thing in
to do as a reporter. Good point.
I guess what bugs me about your conclusion
is that it implies that there is
a compromise to be reached if we would
all just communicate better. I don't believe
that there is. There are just a lot of
individual decisions to be made by each of us
as we choose the sofware tools we will use.
The existance of a 'middle ground' is something
that you won't get a free software advocate
to agree to. Either it's free or it's not,
and you can decide for yourself which way to
go but you can't deny falling on one side or the
other of the definition.
There may well be better technical solutions
that allow the free and non-free software to
play together better. But that's not where
your conclusion leads. You do express an opinion
in your conclusion, it's just one of the standard
journalistic I'm-being-balanced-here-let's-all-get -along
sort. The sort we're used to hearing and so don't
even notice. But I find out out of tone with the
rest of the article because it does seem the one
place where you inject an opinion.
(I am reminded of "<A HREF="http://www.cjr.org/issues/2004/6/mooney-science.asp" title="cjr.org">
Blinded By Science</a cjr.org>
How ‘Balanced’ Coverage Lets the Scientific Fringe Hijack Reality", which I include here only
because I love the article and can't resist
including a link.)
Anyhow, I really did like the article.
Karl O. Pinc <kop@meme.com>
I have been waiting for a good free Rapid Application Developement tool for database applications for a very, very long time. Something like FoxPro. Something that would enable Joe Average to make a simple database application.
If MS can do it, why not somebody else?
I was very happy when I discovered that OOo 2.0 will contain OOoBase. Wow! *This* is what I have been waiting for.
I couldn't wait until the download of the FreeBSD package for OOo finishes.
BAM!
"You need Java to use this feature<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...."
But<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... But<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..... (tears in my eyes)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I have even tried to install Java package for my beloved FreeBSD5.3
Doesn't work.
I have tried googling for java and freebsd.
I have tried googling for freebsd and Kaffe.
I have searched ported applications for java.
Nothing.
Well, life goes on.
I shall continue learning Python, MySQL, wxPython and I will give Dabo (www.dabodev.com) yet another try...
At work I use Windows. I have been using bleeding edge OOo for some time now.
I am a power user and it took *me* a while to figure out how to download "java", what package I need to download from www.sun.com and how to persuade OOo to use my freshly installed java.
Go ahead. Try it. Go to the
<a href="http://www.sun.com/download/index.jsp?cat=Java%20" title="sun.com">http://www.sun.com/download/index.jsp?cat=Java%20</a sun.com><nobr>%<wbr></nobr> 26%20Technologies&tab=3&subcat=Java
and tell me what package you need to install java for your OOo Base.
I can't imagine Joe Sixpack installing java.
If MS can do it, why not somebody else?
I was very happy when I discovered that OOo 2.0 will contain OOoBase. Wow! *This* is what I have been waiting for.
I couldn't wait until the download of the FreeBSD package for OOo finishes.
BAM!
"You need Java to use this feature<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...."
But<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... But<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..... (tears in my eyes)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I have even tried to install Java package for my beloved FreeBSD5.3
Doesn't work.
I have tried googling for java and freebsd.
I have tried googling for freebsd and Kaffe.
I have searched ported applications for java.
Nothing.
Well, life goes on.
I shall continue learning Python, MySQL, wxPython and I will give Dabo (www.dabodev.com) yet another try...
At work I use Windows. I have been using bleeding edge OOo for some time now.
I am a power user and it took *me* a while to figure out how to download "java", what package I need to download from www.sun.com and how to persuade OOo to use my freshly installed java.
Go ahead. Try it. Go to the
<a href="http://www.sun.com/download/index.jsp?cat=Java%20" title="sun.com">http://www.sun.com/download/index.jsp?cat=Java%20</a sun.com><nobr>%<wbr></nobr> 26%20Technologies&tab=3&subcat=Java
and tell me what package you need to install java for your OOo Base.
I can't imagine Joe Sixpack installing java.
Wrong web site to download Java! It's not java.sun.com or anything you find from there, the end-user web site is www.java.com. And, in my experience, it's pretty easy on Windows. And it's not all that hard in Linux.
For what it's worth, I'd rather OOo didn't use Java, just because it adds a bunch of resource-hogging virtual machine paraphenalia, but I guess I understand why they did it...
For what it's worth, I'd rather OOo didn't use Java, just because it adds a bunch of resource-hogging virtual machine paraphenalia, but I guess I understand why they did it...
But the OP was commenting about his experience trying to get Java working on FreeBSD (which is neither Linux or Windows). www.java.com does not have a version of Java available for FreeBSD.
The only issue I have with the OP is that he mentions that he can't imagine Joe Sixpack installing Java - I don't imagine Joe Sixpack running FreeBSD.
The only issue I have with the OP is that he mentions that he can't imagine Joe Sixpack installing Java - I don't imagine Joe Sixpack running FreeBSD.
Kaffe runs fine on FreeBSD. Check out www.kaffe.org. Kaffe 1.1.5 is going to be out soon, this includes a lot of improvements over kaffe 1.1.4
Well, life goes on.
I shall continue learning Python, MySQL, wxPython and I will give Dabo (www.dabodev.com) yet another try...
So you've managed to use and code for all of that but couldn't bother reading for a couple of minutes to figure out what java package you need?
You also couldn't figure out how to enable Java in OOo 2.0. hmmm, if I want to configure features of most applications I go to the "options" menu. I imagine having to go to Tools > Options > Java and have it automatically find your JRE would throw off most people who are still in Preschool so I can see where the confusion comes from.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
I shall continue learning Python, MySQL, wxPython and I will give Dabo (www.dabodev.com) yet another try...
So you've managed to use and code for all of that but couldn't bother reading for a couple of minutes to figure out what java package you need?
You also couldn't figure out how to enable Java in OOo 2.0. hmmm, if I want to configure features of most applications I go to the "options" menu. I imagine having to go to Tools > Options > Java and have it automatically find your JRE would throw off most people who are still in Preschool so I can see where the confusion comes from.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
cd<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/usr/ports/java and select the version you want to install (1.4/1.5, IBM, Blackdown, Native). It's not rocket science. Java works fine on my FreeBSD 5.3 machine.
Fedora is going Java too. We've recommended open source solutions such as Evolution and OpenOffice and Redhat/Fedora to our clients since '95. Then Evolution threw out the shortcut pane so it's unusable on real-world mail trees beyond 1.4.x. Next OOo is going to be stuck in a time-warp at 1.1.x because v2 is slow and flaky and partially closed-source.
Now Fedora is throwing out logical replacement apps (Abiword, Gnumeric, and Koffice!) so they can fill their CD's with more Java junk - OpenOffice 2 and Eclipse.
Is this some evil conspiracy? Maybe not, but it still sucks.
Now Fedora is throwing out logical replacement apps (Abiword, Gnumeric, and Koffice!) so they can fill their CD's with more Java junk - OpenOffice 2 and Eclipse.
Is this some evil conspiracy? Maybe not, but it still sucks.
Fedora will have Java, OpenOffice AND Eclipse you say -- I'll have to try that out<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Most of you probably noticed by now that the vast majority of the open-source end-users out there don't give a fuck about licenses as long as it's open-source. The same way most of the Free Software guys out there are more concerned with their licensing Jihad then with the usability of their software. Most of the distros are somewhere in between, but going more and more on the users side, as they probably should.
What is all this fuss about OpenOffice relying on Java? Free Software guys are using vi and Emacs anyway so they shouldn't be affected by this move anyway. They don't need OpenOffice the way the Microsoft-Office-brainwashed folks out there need it. Java not being free (as-in-fanatic) software is not a threat for these guys. There are three things you can do if you are uncomfortable with this:
1. Reimplement the functionalities the OO team did in Java in whatever language you like.
2. Help improving the GPL JREs/Compilers.
3. Help improving the USABILITY of one of the GPL office suits so that there is a true alternative to OpenOffice that comes under the GPL.
Any of these will help the community as a whole. Flaming OpenOffice won't help anyone [but Microsoft].
Most of you probably noticed by now that the vast majority of the open-source end-users out there don't give a fuck about licenses as long as it's open-source. The same way most of the Free Software guys out there are more concerned with their licensing Jihad then with the usability of their software. Most of the distros are somewhere in between, but going more and more on the users side, as they probably should.
What is all this fuss about OpenOffice relying on Java? Free Software guys are using vi and Emacs anyway so they shouldn't be affected by this move anyway. They don't need OpenOffice the way the Microsoft-Office-brainwashed folks out there need it. Java not being free (as-in-fanatic) software is not a threat for these guys. There are three things you can do if you are uncomfortable with this:
1. Reimplement the functionalities the OO team did in Java in whatever language you like.
2. Help improving the GPL JREs/Compilers.
3. Help improving the USABILITY of one of the GPL office suits so that there is a true alternative to OpenOffice that comes under the GPL.
Any of these will help the community as a whole. Flaming OpenOffice won't help anyone [but Microsoft].
Fedora is using GCJ for Eclipse, so you don't need to have Java installed.
Better never use the Windows version of OO.org
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 06:09 AM
...because that version requires a (gasp) proprietary OS. What sacralidge!
Re:Better never use the Windows version of OO.org
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 08:15 AM
It is not about black and white. I personally don't mind using a non-free component in my work where I use Linux. However I'm quite unhappy when Free Software starts relying on Non-free software. I view it differently from a media player using a non-free codec component. Its hard to expect most people to move from proprietary systems to systems that are completely free.
I'm sure you were trying to make a joke or something, but really where OOo needs to be used the most is on Windows. MS Office is one of Microsoft's big money makers. Linux is hitting them in the server OS arena, now we just need to make a big dent in the office suite arena.
Re:Better never use the Windows version of OO.org
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 09:39 PM
Incorrect!!! It requires a proprietary mind -- that is, one owned by Microsoft. Then again, the credulous make good slaves...
Some Sun developers are out of sync with reality
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 06:24 AM
I don't beleive in the "sun conspiracy for pushing java" theory.
Anyway, the fact that most Ooo devs com from Sun (rather than F/OOS community) is indeed the reason of the java choice.
I'm really sure, inside Sun corp, they all see java as a not so bad thing to use nearly everywhere. They don't realize how bad java looks for us. They may even think we would be thanksfull for those new java "features".
Sun devs have experience with Java. Some of them should be out of sync with the real world of desktop applications and found a good idea to make new features with java (while an F/OSS developer would never push java code on an non java app).
So it's not conspiracy, it's ingenuity, it's lack of FOSS knowledge, it's seeing the world from the very closed Sun corporation circle ; and it's like old, non passionated, ingeneers acts<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... misurstanding what's happen out of the door, and using prefering what they already know<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
See the recent Danese Cooper interview, you'll understand what I mean: <a href="http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=3719" title="madpenguin.org">http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=3719</a madpenguin.org>
Anyway, the fact that most Ooo devs com from Sun (rather than F/OOS community) is indeed the reason of the java choice.
I'm really sure, inside Sun corp, they all see java as a not so bad thing to use nearly everywhere. They don't realize how bad java looks for us. They may even think we would be thanksfull for those new java "features".
Sun devs have experience with Java. Some of them should be out of sync with the real world of desktop applications and found a good idea to make new features with java (while an F/OSS developer would never push java code on an non java app).
So it's not conspiracy, it's ingenuity, it's lack of FOSS knowledge, it's seeing the world from the very closed Sun corporation circle ; and it's like old, non passionated, ingeneers acts<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... misurstanding what's happen out of the door, and using prefering what they already know<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
See the recent Danese Cooper interview, you'll understand what I mean: <a href="http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=3719" title="madpenguin.org">http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=3719</a madpenguin.org>
Re:Some Sun developers are out of sync with realit
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 09:06 AM
I absolutely agree, it is a combination of insularity, lack of imagination and no concept of how to make simple things simple. It is also a curious symptom of the failure, in America, of engineers to take a robust stance with the stupid market droids and self serving managers who seem to be good for nothing but agression, dishonesty and failure.
This was the death of DEC "Unix is snake oil" [Ken Olsen], You use a PDP10, migrate to VMS on VAX [Gordon Bell], ia64 is the future [Intel]...
Believe your own marketing and you are lost!
Go out and get a fucking clue you Linux/FLOSS/GPL dipsticks. Nobody cares about your religious dogma. I'd lump all of you idiots right up there with Christian rightwingers, right-to-lifers, anti-abortion-activists, Jihadis, mullahs and ultra-comuninst-nutcases.
The world is moving right past your eyes. Linux is being left behind in the dust. Linux doesn't matter anymore because Windows and Mac won the deskttop game and you're a day late and a dime short.
The world is moving right past your eyes. Linux is being left behind in the dust. Linux doesn't matter anymore because Windows and Mac won the deskttop game and you're a day late and a dime short.
You fucking Moron. Hippies sit around and smoke pot and eat shrums. They dont code for fun. Go out and spend your big bucks for your M$ office and stop using Free as in Beer software if you feel that way. If it wernt for free as in speech there would be a lot less free as in beer for Bums like you to use.
You probably run warez anyway you scum bag
You probably run warez anyway you scum bag
No you asshole, I run Java and Open office.org on FreeBSD. I don't get my panties in a knot over GPL.
I fucking hope guys like you keep doing this because it's going to take down Linux - glad to be running FreeBSD - no baggage no zealots. We bsd'ers can't ask for a better way to get people running BSD. We'll just point to you linux morons and say, do you really want to be associated by a bunch of morons who fucking can't see a good thing if it came and gave them a blow job. Nooooo they get all hot an' bothered about licenses that everybody else on the planet has no problems with.
Have you checked your cell phone lately?. you'd better get busy uninstall your cell phone next because it's running Java.
I fucking hope guys like you keep doing this because it's going to take down Linux - glad to be running FreeBSD - no baggage no zealots. We bsd'ers can't ask for a better way to get people running BSD. We'll just point to you linux morons and say, do you really want to be associated by a bunch of morons who fucking can't see a good thing if it came and gave them a blow job. Nooooo they get all hot an' bothered about licenses that everybody else on the planet has no problems with.
Have you checked your cell phone lately?. you'd better get busy uninstall your cell phone next because it's running Java.
and you represent the BSD crowd, huh? I bet they love the fact they have such a bad mannered individual representing them.
And you representing the Linux crowd?. Man I'm sure that a ton of linux users are ashamed of you as well.
Who fucking died and lumped the open source community into the Linux community?. FreeBSD is open source without religion and I speak for myself and I don't have to fucking get permission from RMS unlike you Linux/GPL morons.
Who fucking died and lumped the open source community into the Linux community?. FreeBSD is open source without religion and I speak for myself and I don't have to fucking get permission from RMS unlike you Linux/GPL morons.
I don't use Linux. So it looks like you got some crow to eat, luzer... And I don't represent the Linux/GNU crowd, never once did I say anything like that. All you ended up doing was making yourself look like an ass.
*pointing at you and laughing*
And attacking RMS like it's going to piss me off or push my buttons, all that turned out to be is the silly hat on you head. Good job. Be proud of yourself.
*pointing at you and laughing*
And attacking RMS like it's going to piss me off or push my buttons, all that turned out to be is the silly hat on you head. Good job. Be proud of yourself.
Sit down and listen to yourself.
"Who fucking died and lumped the open source community into the Linux community?. FreeBSD is open source without religion and I speak for myself and I don't have to fucking get permission from RMS unlike you Linux/GPL morons."
You're swearing, and you're disrespecting others right from the start. I don't bash the BSD's just because I'm a Linux user and I have different beliefs. I respect the BSDs.
Do you see me getting permission from RMS to install this and that? I do development on several Linux small linux distros, so I use non-free software. RMS wouldn't like that, but I'm free to do as I like.
Quite frankly, calm down and stop flaming. Open yours eyes and see that others think different things that you do and they won't always agree with you.
At the very least, you could have been polite.
Thanks,
Stephen Clement
"Who fucking died and lumped the open source community into the Linux community?. FreeBSD is open source without religion and I speak for myself and I don't have to fucking get permission from RMS unlike you Linux/GPL morons."
You're swearing, and you're disrespecting others right from the start. I don't bash the BSD's just because I'm a Linux user and I have different beliefs. I respect the BSDs.
Do you see me getting permission from RMS to install this and that? I do development on several Linux small linux distros, so I use non-free software. RMS wouldn't like that, but I'm free to do as I like.
Quite frankly, calm down and stop flaming. Open yours eyes and see that others think different things that you do and they won't always agree with you.
At the very least, you could have been polite.
Thanks,
Stephen Clement
"Linux is being left behind in the dust."
Wrong. Linux is the fastest growing operating system, by any number of measures. And, it is most certainly worth debating the future of such a powerful phenomenon -- as many are doing in this forum. Debate and discussion is an indicator of vitality and egality and are not considered a negative by most intelligent people.
"Linux doesn't matter anymore because Windows and Mac won the deskttop [sic] game..."
Linux installs now exceed Mac on the desktop and Linux is likely to eclipse Mac by even greater numbers as the developing world comes online in increasing numbers.
Come back when you have some facts. Otherwise, peddle your trolls elsewhere. Oh, yeah -- and please try to stop being a flamebaiting idiot. You know... like those "Christian rightwingers, right-to-lifers, anti-abortion-activists, Jihadis, mullahs and ultra-comuninst-nutcases..."
Wrong. Linux is the fastest growing operating system, by any number of measures. And, it is most certainly worth debating the future of such a powerful phenomenon -- as many are doing in this forum. Debate and discussion is an indicator of vitality and egality and are not considered a negative by most intelligent people.
"Linux doesn't matter anymore because Windows and Mac won the deskttop [sic] game..."
Linux installs now exceed Mac on the desktop and Linux is likely to eclipse Mac by even greater numbers as the developing world comes online in increasing numbers.
Come back when you have some facts. Otherwise, peddle your trolls elsewhere. Oh, yeah -- and please try to stop being a flamebaiting idiot. You know... like those "Christian rightwingers, right-to-lifers, anti-abortion-activists, Jihadis, mullahs and ultra-comuninst-nutcases..."
Before we jump to conclusions without looking..
How does choosing java in Open Office and thus influencing developers working on JRE/Java compiler replacements under FOSS licensing detract from FOSS?
Lets stop blowing the somke of the debate and try listening!
the many FOSS java/jre projects have been looking for a catalyst such as desktop java applications to help drive more interest in developer contributions..lets not now throw the baby out with bath water because somehow accidently we got what this opportunity to fully have a full jre/compiler replacement under FOSS licensing!!
aka Shareme
<a href="http://www.jroller.com/page/shareme/Weblog" title="jroller.com">http://www.jroller.com/page/shareme/Weblog</a jroller.com>
How does choosing java in Open Office and thus influencing developers working on JRE/Java compiler replacements under FOSS licensing detract from FOSS?
Lets stop blowing the somke of the debate and try listening!
the many FOSS java/jre projects have been looking for a catalyst such as desktop java applications to help drive more interest in developer contributions..lets not now throw the baby out with bath water because somehow accidently we got what this opportunity to fully have a full jre/compiler replacement under FOSS licensing!!
aka Shareme
<a href="http://www.jroller.com/page/shareme/Weblog" title="jroller.com">http://www.jroller.com/page/shareme/Weblog</a jroller.com>
Re:The Java Choice and how FOSS [doesn't] benefit
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 09:13 AM
Yes yes, it's all well and Good GCJ and Kaffe get a little more pushing and poking and peeking and prodding.. and all starts to work and make wonderful nice, and then...
<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..BAM!!! Sun changes the language around.. doesn't document the changes and all those nice well meaning FOSS projects get to reimplement [more aptly describe as reverse-engineer].. again, and looky lookyy.. OOo suffers..
and now it all needs recoding again, and there are no docs because JAVA isn't OPEN..
get it?
<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..BAM!!! Sun changes the language around.. doesn't document the changes and all those nice well meaning FOSS projects get to reimplement [more aptly describe as reverse-engineer].. again, and looky lookyy.. OOo suffers..
and now it all needs recoding again, and there are no docs because JAVA isn't OPEN..
get it?
Re:The Java Choice and how FOSS [doesn't] benefit
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 10:55 AM
Sun changes the language around and doesn't document the changes??
BAM!! All existing Java apps need to be recoded.
get it?
BAM!! All existing Java apps need to be recoded.
get it?
You get an excellent MS Office alternative for no cost, and you nit-pick about petty details? java is free (as in no cost).
Perhaps you should spend your time thanking the developers of OpenOffice.org before you complain about this type of crap.
Use the best tool for the job, even if its Bitkeeper.
You ignorant communists need to wake up to reality, before you permanently shoot yourselves in the foot.
How many of you are still children? How many of you are working adults with mortgages to pay?
Talk about sheep following the herd.
RMS, you can kiss my ass.
Perhaps you should spend your time thanking the developers of OpenOffice.org before you complain about this type of crap.
Use the best tool for the job, even if its Bitkeeper.
You ignorant communists need to wake up to reality, before you permanently shoot yourselves in the foot.
How many of you are still children? How many of you are working adults with mortgages to pay?
Talk about sheep following the herd.
RMS, you can kiss my ass.
I'm sorry to have to respond to this flame bait, but here goes. You call me an idiot because you feel that I am nit-picky. Here are my reasons.
"You get an excellent MS Office alternative for no cost, and you nit-pick about petty details? java is free (as in no cost)."
The above statement is false as a whole. Here's why.
A) There is no JRE for OpenBSD and many other platforms for that matter, so I must run some form of emulation for it to work. This is not free in either disk space, memory or performance.
B) Point A means that although I would like to use OO.o's extended functionality I can't. If this functionality was programmed in say C or C++ it wouldn't be a problem!
C) Java's License DOES NOT ALLOW FOR REDISTRIBUTION, so even if it was available it would not be in the base system of many BSD/Linux/UNIX distributions.
D) Java requires a fairly significant overhead in the areas of memory consumption and performance overhead.
E) OO.o team is using this as an excuse because of lack of resources to do the programming required to not have to rely on the JRE to accomplish the same tasks.
"You ignorant communists need to wake up to reality, before you permanently shoot yourselves in the foot."
This is just blatently rude! To bash someones beliefs is an outrage! Grow up! Many people including myself, believe that if you want to make a completely free, open source replacement that it should be just that! No strings attached, redistribute, modify, contribute to making it better without worries of intellectual property crud.
"How many of you are still children? How many of you are working adults with mortgages to pay?"
I'm 30 with a wife and 3 kids, but no mortage because I rent at the moment. I previosly worked with a well known High Performance Computing company installing and maintaining super computing equipment. Why? Are you interested in finding someone? I seriously doubt that this is the best place to find someone<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
"You get an excellent MS Office alternative for no cost, and you nit-pick about petty details? java is free (as in no cost)."
The above statement is false as a whole. Here's why.
A) There is no JRE for OpenBSD and many other platforms for that matter, so I must run some form of emulation for it to work. This is not free in either disk space, memory or performance.
B) Point A means that although I would like to use OO.o's extended functionality I can't. If this functionality was programmed in say C or C++ it wouldn't be a problem!
C) Java's License DOES NOT ALLOW FOR REDISTRIBUTION, so even if it was available it would not be in the base system of many BSD/Linux/UNIX distributions.
D) Java requires a fairly significant overhead in the areas of memory consumption and performance overhead.
E) OO.o team is using this as an excuse because of lack of resources to do the programming required to not have to rely on the JRE to accomplish the same tasks.
"You ignorant communists need to wake up to reality, before you permanently shoot yourselves in the foot."
This is just blatently rude! To bash someones beliefs is an outrage! Grow up! Many people including myself, believe that if you want to make a completely free, open source replacement that it should be just that! No strings attached, redistribute, modify, contribute to making it better without worries of intellectual property crud.
"How many of you are still children? How many of you are working adults with mortgages to pay?"
I'm 30 with a wife and 3 kids, but no mortage because I rent at the moment. I previosly worked with a well known High Performance Computing company installing and maintaining super computing equipment. Why? Are you interested in finding someone? I seriously doubt that this is the best place to find someone<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Communists? You desparately need some lessons in economics. And, you may be older than some Newsforge readers, but gauging from the tone of your message, your maturity is severely in doubt.
But, I'll respond to your troll, anyway: As someone who does earn a living in the technology field, my obligations are to provide the highest quality product/service for the lowest price. Proprietary solutions, whether freely available or not, are patently less desirable than F/OSS options from this standpoint. Product lock-in, forced upgrades, and other counter-productive tactics rob money from the bottom lines of tens of thousands of corporations (not to mention consumers). The only beneficiaries are those who peddle such dodgy wares -- and, of course, their shareholders and business partners.
Here's another way of looking at it: In some parts of the US (in fact, I'll bet this is common practice globally), hunters offer "free" (as in Java) apples or "free" corn to the local deer population. Of course, we all know these apples or corn aren't truly free and that a price will be paid at some point during the year. Those who are complaining about Java's inclusion in OOo simply believe that there is a potentially high price to be paid somewhere down the line. They are merely asking for a "no strings attached" product. And, that's smart business, not communism.
But, I'll respond to your troll, anyway: As someone who does earn a living in the technology field, my obligations are to provide the highest quality product/service for the lowest price. Proprietary solutions, whether freely available or not, are patently less desirable than F/OSS options from this standpoint. Product lock-in, forced upgrades, and other counter-productive tactics rob money from the bottom lines of tens of thousands of corporations (not to mention consumers). The only beneficiaries are those who peddle such dodgy wares -- and, of course, their shareholders and business partners.
Here's another way of looking at it: In some parts of the US (in fact, I'll bet this is common practice globally), hunters offer "free" (as in Java) apples or "free" corn to the local deer population. Of course, we all know these apples or corn aren't truly free and that a price will be paid at some point during the year. Those who are complaining about Java's inclusion in OOo simply believe that there is a potentially high price to be paid somewhere down the line. They are merely asking for a "no strings attached" product. And, that's smart business, not communism.
Your reaction is a perfect exemple of typical capitalist behavior, i.e. everything but *price* is a "detail".
Yeah, I may be a communist. Yeah, I may shoot myself in the foot if it could make me dodge the draft but... some people have wider ideas regarding what reality truly IS. Yours is full of profit ideals and made of green paper. Mine is made of sharing, non-profit, dreams and evolution.
Capitalism and the Myth of Unfinished Profit will eventually lead us to system collapse.
Have you ever listened to Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, or Scott Nealy ? They're both OUT OF reality.
Yeah, I may be a communist. Yeah, I may shoot myself in the foot if it could make me dodge the draft but... some people have wider ideas regarding what reality truly IS. Yours is full of profit ideals and made of green paper. Mine is made of sharing, non-profit, dreams and evolution.
Capitalism and the Myth of Unfinished Profit will eventually lead us to system collapse.
Have you ever listened to Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, or Scott Nealy ? They're both OUT OF reality.
Both? You mentioned three people...
What reality truly is? Umm... your post is a load of unfocused, imprecise gibberish.
Either smoke dope or post to Newsforge. Please don't try to to both at the same time.
What reality truly is? Umm... your post is a load of unfocused, imprecise gibberish.
Either smoke dope or post to Newsforge. Please don't try to to both at the same time.
Well, this was an intersting article, although I don't agree with his conclusions.
His reference to Caolan's work with gcj+OO.o is also a little out of date. Fedora Core 4 test 1 includes OO.o with all of the java bits built to bytecode with Free Software tools (gcj + Eclipse compiler). We still have some work ahead in order to get everything _running_ with the gcj-based runtime, but I would characterize it as bug-fixing, not implementing huge chunks of unimplemented library code.
I think the biggest problem here is actually the lack of awareness about what gcj is capable of these days.
His reference to Caolan's work with gcj+OO.o is also a little out of date. Fedora Core 4 test 1 includes OO.o with all of the java bits built to bytecode with Free Software tools (gcj + Eclipse compiler). We still have some work ahead in order to get everything _running_ with the gcj-based runtime, but I would characterize it as bug-fixing, not implementing huge chunks of unimplemented library code.
I think the biggest problem here is actually the lack of awareness about what gcj is capable of these days.
There are so many OpenSource products that use and require JAVA. Nobody gives a thing about that. Have you ever heard somebody whine about tomcat or JBoss requireing JAVA? No? I'm not surprised. Nevertheless they are open source and often quoted as excellent open source products.
Basically I have a rather pragmatic view on this non issue. If it makes sense to use JAVA to improve OOo, and it really seems it does from what I can see in the beta, accept it. If distributions need to be anal about open source, go with the JAVA-free aproach and implement some sort of automatic java download and installation package that makes it easy to install JAVA if the user wishes without having to package and distribute it. This JAVA-installer could be upgraded via the normal upgrade mechanism to allow for changing links on SUN's JAVA-website.
That's it. That means not much further hassle for distributors.
An additional benefit would be easier packaging for various nice JAVA apps like the forementioned Tomcat or JBoss and others.
I really like free software and open source but sometimes the bitching about certain things really get's on my nerve. Shouting for a fork is utter nonsense as well. This would be the worst that could happen for OOo at least if the statements in this article are correct. If JAVA could be removed when someone writes the new stuff in C++, people should rather spend their time working with the rest of the project instead of forking the whole thing and duplicating much of the work.
Well, hardliners are seldom a benefit. I guess that's also true in the open source area.
Basically I have a rather pragmatic view on this non issue. If it makes sense to use JAVA to improve OOo, and it really seems it does from what I can see in the beta, accept it. If distributions need to be anal about open source, go with the JAVA-free aproach and implement some sort of automatic java download and installation package that makes it easy to install JAVA if the user wishes without having to package and distribute it. This JAVA-installer could be upgraded via the normal upgrade mechanism to allow for changing links on SUN's JAVA-website.
That's it. That means not much further hassle for distributors.
An additional benefit would be easier packaging for various nice JAVA apps like the forementioned Tomcat or JBoss and others.
I really like free software and open source but sometimes the bitching about certain things really get's on my nerve. Shouting for a fork is utter nonsense as well. This would be the worst that could happen for OOo at least if the statements in this article are correct. If JAVA could be removed when someone writes the new stuff in C++, people should rather spend their time working with the rest of the project instead of forking the whole thing and duplicating much of the work.
Well, hardliners are seldom a benefit. I guess that's also true in the open source area.
Yah, could you find me a nice copy of Sun's JRE 1.5.0 for Linux/PPC? how about NetBSD/PPC.. no? at least Linux/Sparc64?? what the???
now what about python?? oh.. oh ya.. it's all there.
now what about python?? oh.. oh ya.. it's all there.
Blackdown already has what you need. Anything else is pure ideology.
What about IKVM running with Mono? Seems all pretty FOSS to me.
Besides the fact that Java is slower than native code, requires a good bit more memory, and is an additional piece of software?
There's a lot of people who think the internet is broken on Firefox because it doesn't come with a Flash player. Now you're requiring a seperate piece of software to make *some* parts of an office suite work? It's just a bad choice.
FWIW, all the Java software I've had to deal with has been horrible. Ever try to use the newer Dell OpenManage stuff? Massive resource hog and slow too. Java BitTorrent stuff is junk too, and I had to go searching around for a version that didn't bloat by requiring either Java or Python or some other silly thing.
Choice of languages is nice and all, but seriously, don't be so immature about this kind of thing. Java is a nice idea, but you're needlessly adding significant complexity and hurting performance just because you feel like using Java.
If you want a pre-built package that you can run in your browser or something (applets) then fine, Java is nice. If you want a full application, Java is a pain in the arse. Having to download and install a JRE is annoying, waiting for it to load is annoying, the memory footprint is annoying. Having my platform choice restricted unnessarily is foolish, and there are platforms that are *still* not supported with an up-to-date JRE.
Basically, this is another example of a free project doing something in a less than optimal way because of language zealotry. Worst part is that almost every big open source project is doing this sort of thing. At least in the Linux kernel you can choose not to include features you don't like and still have a fully functional kernel. You can't decide not to have Java and still use OpenOffice without reduced functionality.
My workplace is certainly going to have to re-evaluate whether OpenOffice is a viable platform after this news was noticed.
There's a lot of people who think the internet is broken on Firefox because it doesn't come with a Flash player. Now you're requiring a seperate piece of software to make *some* parts of an office suite work? It's just a bad choice.
FWIW, all the Java software I've had to deal with has been horrible. Ever try to use the newer Dell OpenManage stuff? Massive resource hog and slow too. Java BitTorrent stuff is junk too, and I had to go searching around for a version that didn't bloat by requiring either Java or Python or some other silly thing.
Choice of languages is nice and all, but seriously, don't be so immature about this kind of thing. Java is a nice idea, but you're needlessly adding significant complexity and hurting performance just because you feel like using Java.
If you want a pre-built package that you can run in your browser or something (applets) then fine, Java is nice. If you want a full application, Java is a pain in the arse. Having to download and install a JRE is annoying, waiting for it to load is annoying, the memory footprint is annoying. Having my platform choice restricted unnessarily is foolish, and there are platforms that are *still* not supported with an up-to-date JRE.
Basically, this is another example of a free project doing something in a less than optimal way because of language zealotry. Worst part is that almost every big open source project is doing this sort of thing. At least in the Linux kernel you can choose not to include features you don't like and still have a fully functional kernel. You can't decide not to have Java and still use OpenOffice without reduced functionality.
My workplace is certainly going to have to re-evaluate whether OpenOffice is a viable platform after this news was noticed.
Java is a little slower than native code, that's right. Then again, every single layer of abstraction makes the app slower than handoptimized machine code. JAVA is slow is not generally true. Swing is slow, that's right, JAVA all by itself isnt generally.
What exactly is new about having dependancys? OOo depends on quite a few things, JAVA just being a new one. And in my Opinion, any modern dekstopsystem should have a recent Version of JAVA anyways.
I have no idea what DELL put together. Never used it. I have used quite a few very nice JAVA apps though. Think exlipse for example. And remember we are talking about JAVA not SWING.
I simply omit answering your other points.
But, in the end, you talk about zealotry. Well, I guess you are the zealot or maybe better anti zealot, it really seems to me, the OOo guys were simply pragmatic. Especially in terms of Database-Access via JAVA. Every major DB-vendor ships JDBC drivers which are very easy to add since they come in a standard format. Doesn't it make sense to reuse this instead of only offering MySQL and PostgreSQL support? From what it seems, some other things were reused as well.
I wonder why there are always people bitching about other people's choices. And by all means. If your workplace is JAVA-phobic, hell, get rid of OOo. Nobody makes you use it in the first place.
What exactly is new about having dependancys? OOo depends on quite a few things, JAVA just being a new one. And in my Opinion, any modern dekstopsystem should have a recent Version of JAVA anyways.
I have no idea what DELL put together. Never used it. I have used quite a few very nice JAVA apps though. Think exlipse for example. And remember we are talking about JAVA not SWING.
I simply omit answering your other points.
But, in the end, you talk about zealotry. Well, I guess you are the zealot or maybe better anti zealot, it really seems to me, the OOo guys were simply pragmatic. Especially in terms of Database-Access via JAVA. Every major DB-vendor ships JDBC drivers which are very easy to add since they come in a standard format. Doesn't it make sense to reuse this instead of only offering MySQL and PostgreSQL support? From what it seems, some other things were reused as well.
I wonder why there are always people bitching about other people's choices. And by all means. If your workplace is JAVA-phobic, hell, get rid of OOo. Nobody makes you use it in the first place.
I must be very unlucky. Every Java application that I have used sucked. I hate Java. Isn't java used because it is easier to develop? Languages shouldn't be picked because of ease of development. Its all about the user.
And here's some proof:
<a href="http://www.spindazzle.org/green/index.php?p=43" title="spindazzle.org">http://www.spindazzle.org/green/index.php?p=43</a spindazzle.org>
<a href="http://www.spindazzle.org/green/index.php?p=43" title="spindazzle.org">http://www.spindazzle.org/green/index.php?p=43</a spindazzle.org>
Very interesting and very good news. What versions of gcj and gnu classpath were used?
> What versions of gcj and gnu classpath were used?
This is with the preview of gcj (GCC) 4.0.0. Fedora Core 4 is planning on using GCC 4 as the system compiler, although it is not yet released.
GNU Classpath doesn't really factor in, other than libgcj is gcj's version of the core class library and it is largely merged with the GNU Classpath project. There is a lot of cooperation between the gcj and GNU Classpath teams.
Speaking of cooperation, I think things are slowly warming up between Free Software language _implementors_ and Free Software java programmers (Apache and Eclipse, for instance). But only very slowly. I hope cooperation will accelerate as people realize how "complete" the Free Software solutions are already. OO.o is an interesting case, since Sun is the main development backer - but hopefully they will realize that running the _full_ OO.o on a fully Free platform has real value!
This is with the preview of gcj (GCC) 4.0.0. Fedora Core 4 is planning on using GCC 4 as the system compiler, although it is not yet released.
GNU Classpath doesn't really factor in, other than libgcj is gcj's version of the core class library and it is largely merged with the GNU Classpath project. There is a lot of cooperation between the gcj and GNU Classpath teams.
Speaking of cooperation, I think things are slowly warming up between Free Software language _implementors_ and Free Software java programmers (Apache and Eclipse, for instance). But only very slowly. I hope cooperation will accelerate as people realize how "complete" the Free Software solutions are already. OO.o is an interesting case, since Sun is the main development backer - but hopefully they will realize that running the _full_ OO.o on a fully Free platform has real value!
Good to hear that events have overtaken the article.
Let's hope that there isn't any major tweaking needed before the final version of OOo comes out.
Let's hope that there isn't any major tweaking needed before the final version of OOo comes out.
i really think it's about time that the GNU classpath, kaffe and gcj folks got the credit and kudos they deserve. their rate of progress has been tremendous in the last year.
Well, the problem is not completly resolved:
- It don't work flawlessly, even on FC4beta (and yes, I've tryed, and yes problems mostly arrises on java components)
- It needed a bunch of red hat developers to accomplish this, it needs many patches etc. The mere mortal won't be able to do this. It also needs a (very) beta version of the gcc/gcj suite, that not everybody is willing to use soonly.
- Ooo team didn't try to make the java code portable on free jvms. this is the worst point here: how could they have forgotten ???. The nearly result happened after a huge hack. will Ooo team take or freedom needs seriously, later ? will they try to keep the thing portable on non sun java environement ? what about Ooo updates (eg, security updates) ? How could they have forgotten to make the thing working with a free jvm ???
- Other notes, concerning technical problems with java (being slow, memory hog, require a powerfull computer<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...) remains valids.
- It don't work flawlessly, even on FC4beta (and yes, I've tryed, and yes problems mostly arrises on java components)
- It needed a bunch of red hat developers to accomplish this, it needs many patches etc. The mere mortal won't be able to do this. It also needs a (very) beta version of the gcc/gcj suite, that not everybody is willing to use soonly.
- Ooo team didn't try to make the java code portable on free jvms. this is the worst point here: how could they have forgotten ???. The nearly result happened after a huge hack. will Ooo team take or freedom needs seriously, later ? will they try to keep the thing portable on non sun java environement ? what about Ooo updates (eg, security updates) ? How could they have forgotten to make the thing working with a free jvm ???
- Other notes, concerning technical problems with java (being slow, memory hog, require a powerfull computer<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...) remains valids.
So let's all move the code to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET!
(As a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET developer, I can tell you Visual Studio.NET is a slowwww pig. Eclipse (written in Java) is much faster).
(As a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET developer, I can tell you Visual Studio.NET is a slowwww pig. Eclipse (written in Java) is much faster).
Mr. Bill could not be more pleased with his open source proprietary platform of the future, and how it is shaping up.
Sorry<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. that should be - proprietary open source platform - in that order!
one hundred years from now... it won't matter.
Overall, I like the argument and good to be free from any license agreement for Java.
But the part stated about, "Many operating systems currently supported, including FreeBSD and GNU/Linux for the PowerPC, have no official version of Java."
part of this isn't correct. You can get Java for Linux on powerPC, POWER and Opteron from IBM. Last time I checked you can freely do so.
But the part stated about, "Many operating systems currently supported, including FreeBSD and GNU/Linux for the PowerPC, have no official version of Java."
part of this isn't correct. You can get Java for Linux on powerPC, POWER and Opteron from IBM. Last time I checked you can freely do so.
I believe he said, "official version" -- IBM Java is not Java, it is a Java-compatible virtual machine, it's Java-like.
Hmmm<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... where have I heard that before? Oh, I remember now, it's what Mad Dog said to me when I called Linux "Unix like" and he said,
back on the topic, my experience with IBM Java is that it works very very nicely where it works, but unfortunately fails just a little too often to trust it in all circumstances. And IIRC, one of those situations where IBM Java failed me was in the ODBC/JDBC support in OOo<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Hmmm<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... where have I heard that before? Oh, I remember now, it's what Mad Dog said to me when I called Linux "Unix like" and he said,
"Linux is not certified as a 'Unix', so 'unix-like' is not correct. It is more accurate to say instead that Unix is a 'Linux-like' operating system." (Jon Mad Dog Hall)
back on the topic, my experience with IBM Java is that it works very very nicely where it works, but unfortunately fails just a little too often to trust it in all circumstances. And IIRC, one of those situations where IBM Java failed me was in the ODBC/JDBC support in OOo<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Free software supporters, however, are chiefly concerned with their philosophical position, and are willing to undergo some inconvenience to stay true to their principles.
I don't know if this is FUD or naivity, but I'm surprised to find it in an ostensibly technical and experienced forum such as this.
Read my lips:'Free' software is about freedom not for any philosophical ideal, but because experience teaches that the un-free always falls into precisely the trap that this OOo story illustrates! It is only 'philosophical' in the sense that you might find it a 'philosophical' argument to wash your hands after using the bathroom or find it 'philosophical' to change the oil on your car at least once a year -- both results are only non-obvious to the novice who hasn't any clue how either bacteria or engines do their work, so to them, it's magic and voodoo. To the mechanic or the healthcare professional, on the other hand, to those who know how these dramas play out over time, it's just good advice, plain and simple.
Non-free code carries a future-risk that the owners of said code may, for whatever and often very good and well-considered reasons, take a path that does not include your now-sizeable investment in their work. Some of us are very tired of facing that risk, so it makes our neck-hairs stand up whenever it rears its ugly head.
what it means for OOo
Now, given that, freedom also means freedom to shoot yourself in the foot; if OOo could only find Java programmers, that's what happened, no blame. We can't fault them, whether Sun or OOo, for this choice of base-technology, but the Free Software lesson here is that if this had been free software, we wouldn't be facing this dilema and the warning of Free Software is that sacrificing this freedom will be a move we'll come to regret. It's just the way these dramas play out over time, good advice, plain and simple.
Fortunately, I believe there are enough competent programmers out there with enough skin in the OOo game and enough experience behind them to understand what I've just said, and I fully expect we won't see the scenario RMS fears most, where the Free Software development doesn't happen because there's already a kinda-working ok-for-now non-Free solution. I'm going to keep the faith in my colleages and assert that what we'll see instead is the triumph of the 'free' component and the emergence of the sought-for C++ 'free software' database.
And this will only be possible because the OOo code was free, free to route around the risks of the proprietary component.
From <a href="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-f" title="gnu.org">http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-f</a gnu.org><nobr>r<wbr></nobr> eedom.html:
"The fundamental difference between the two movements is in their values, their ways of looking at the world. For the Open Source movement, the issue of whether software should be open source is a practical question, not an ethical one. As one person put it, ``Open source is a development methodology; free software is a social movement.'' For the Open Source movement, non-free software is a suboptimal solution. For the Free Software movement, non-free software is a social problem and free software is the solution."
Values? Ethics? Social movements? Social problems?
Sounds like a philosophical position to me.
For that matter, your emphasis on freedom is a matter of philosophy.
"The fundamental difference between the two movements is in their values, their ways of looking at the world. For the Open Source movement, the issue of whether software should be open source is a practical question, not an ethical one. As one person put it, ``Open source is a development methodology; free software is a social movement.'' For the Open Source movement, non-free software is a suboptimal solution. For the Free Software movement, non-free software is a social problem and free software is the solution."
Values? Ethics? Social movements? Social problems?
Sounds like a philosophical position to me.
For that matter, your emphasis on freedom is a matter of philosophy.
What the fuck took you free software zealots so long to see the correleation between Open Office and Java and Sun?.
When OO.o came out you were right up there chanting "Death to MS Word and we have a winner in OO!" - now you realize, it's not blessed with RMS pee so now every FLOSS/GPL zealots in a bind - shit we got nothing now!.
Maybe ABIword or Koffice now for you? - Please go and unisntall oo.o proto.....lest the GPL police come and question you.
When OO.o came out you were right up there chanting "Death to MS Word and we have a winner in OO!" - now you realize, it's not blessed with RMS pee so now every FLOSS/GPL zealots in a bind - shit we got nothing now!.
Maybe ABIword or Koffice now for you? - Please go and unisntall oo.o proto.....lest the GPL police come and question you.
yeah, you go girl
Free as in Freedom vs. Free as in No Fee is a choice. Since I'm not being compelled to choose either, it is one based on my philosophical viewpoint.
So do tell, in the name of Free Will, do you also nix on washing your hands after? I'd want to know, y'know, just in case we meet at a conference<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
you know you really shouldn't be handling something so anonymous. But then, that is a choice isn't?
JAVA is the new COBOL. Give it up already<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
If legions of folks are going to use something,
like OpenOffice, then a bit more dev time to make
it FOSS, fast and lean (on memory) makes all the
sense in the world. COBOL indeed. There is no
excuse for polluting OpenOffice with anything
implemented in JAVA.
like OpenOffice, then a bit more dev time to make
it FOSS, fast and lean (on memory) makes all the
sense in the world. COBOL indeed. There is no
excuse for polluting OpenOffice with anything
implemented in JAVA.
Bruce wrote:
Broadly speaking, Bruce is fundamentally in error, here. Speaking as someone who frequently wears the "open source" hat, proprietary JREs are to be avoided as a long-term dead-end, regardless of their backers' claims about "results and user convenience".
Broadly speaking, the defenders of OpenOffice.org's new reliance on Java, with their emphasis on results and user convenience, can be lumped into the open source camp.
Broadly speaking, Bruce is fundamentally in error, here. Speaking as someone who frequently wears the "open source" hat, proprietary JREs are to be avoided as a long-term dead-end, regardless of their backers' claims about "results and user convenience".
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
"Speaking as someone who frequently wears the "open source" hat, proprietary JREs are to be avoided as a long-term dead-end, regardless of their backers' claims about "results and user convenience"."
While were at it. Let's ditch PDFs and Flash. And better watch out for Mono while we're at it.
While were at it. Let's ditch PDFs and Flash. And better watch out for Mono while we're at it.
pdf is an open standard. That's why we have xpdf, ghostscript and pdf2ps, ps2pdf, OpenOffice creating pdf files and more.
As for flash, that little virus should definitely be ditched.
Keep your mouth holstered and you won't have to worry about mono.
As for flash, that little virus should definitely be ditched.
Keep your mouth holstered and you won't have to worry about mono.
Who cares. This seems like a non-issue to me. The only risk is that Sun will somehow sink Java intentionally, and the investment in Java source would be "lost". But that is the same for every single freaking open source Java project: applications, middleware, portals, databases, etc. There is a ton of open source Java software already, not to mention a multi-million, if not -billion dollar<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/commercial/ industry built on top of Java already. Apparently all those companies aren't very afraid of losing their investment. The other alternative is that Sun eventually open sources Java (or rather the JVM). I think this will probably happen anyway, but it won't happen faster with everybody gasping and screaming and clutching their children and running for the hills anybody decides to use Java in an open source project.
Don't like Java? Don't use it. Go work on some competing office suite.
But don't whine.
Don't like Java? Don't use it. Go work on some competing office suite.
But don't whine.
I care. And everyone has the right to openly discuss disagreement. Don't like discussion? Don't post here. Go open up your mind.
Sounds kind of rude when said back, doesn't it?
Sounds kind of rude when said back, doesn't it?
Unfortantely some of us can't use Java. This makes Open Office not so open to us anymore. Part of the joy of both open source and free source software is being able to run which software you want on which OS you want and use which processor you want.
This is Not a Free Source Vs. Open Source issue, as not all what is needed to run all of open office is even open source. Now if Java was open source but had a non free license, then it would be such an issue.
This article is an attempt to try and divide us into two camps in order to keep us from doing something about the situation. It's time for the FOSS/Open Source community to take the Open Office source code and make a more usuable product. We were so close to a really nice open source office solution, and they had to go mess it up.
This is Not a Free Source Vs. Open Source issue, as not all what is needed to run all of open office is even open source. Now if Java was open source but had a non free license, then it would be such an issue.
This article is an attempt to try and divide us into two camps in order to keep us from doing something about the situation. It's time for the FOSS/Open Source community to take the Open Office source code and make a more usuable product. We were so close to a really nice open source office solution, and they had to go mess it up.
Can't? Or just won't?
1. There will be a "Free Office" project that forks the code.
2. After an initial burst of enthusiasm with grand pronouncements and some nifty organizational work, most of the volunteers will come to realize that banging out substantial new releases is a lot of hard work that people should be PAID for.
It's not a CS rush like implementing algorithms in the Linux kernel.
2. After an initial burst of enthusiasm with grand pronouncements and some nifty organizational work, most of the volunteers will come to realize that banging out substantial new releases is a lot of hard work that people should be PAID for.
It's not a CS rush like implementing algorithms in the Linux kernel.
If what you say is true it is time to fork. Let Richard Stallman give them the last rights like the saint he is. Sun will find itself all alone if they decide to not follow. As everyone already knows this is not as big as X.org and Xfree86 split. See that together we stand but separate they will break us. Sun if you value your future and not being left behind stay with the group and try to help instead of having alternate plans that will effect you in the end.
Where the ends justify the means.
n/t
One of the new things where Java is used for is the 'Base' component. Now, I've been a database developer for years, and I frankly can't see how this thing made it into this 2.0 Preview. I mean, It's not even alpha-quality.
There's all sorts of issues with it and plenty of stuff that doesn't work. It even presented me with error messages using the most basic of SQL-queries, a simple 'SELECT * FROM<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... WHERE<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...' query on a table with about 8 records. Databases are my main worktool, and I must admit I was really looking forward to a good database component in OOo, which would finally make it an option for me, but now I'm just dissapointed. As for this discussion about Java... most of the arguments in this thread seem to be written by 10 to 15-year olds, so let's give them a few years to grow up, and then make their point again. I'm not knocking your arguments, just the way in which you communicate them. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.
I don't particularly like Java because in spite of what some developers say, it is slow, very slow indeed. And the fact that Sun would push Java into OOo sooner or later... is that such a big surprise?
There's all sorts of issues with it and plenty of stuff that doesn't work. It even presented me with error messages using the most basic of SQL-queries, a simple 'SELECT * FROM<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... WHERE<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...' query on a table with about 8 records. Databases are my main worktool, and I must admit I was really looking forward to a good database component in OOo, which would finally make it an option for me, but now I'm just dissapointed. As for this discussion about Java... most of the arguments in this thread seem to be written by 10 to 15-year olds, so let's give them a few years to grow up, and then make their point again. I'm not knocking your arguments, just the way in which you communicate them. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.
I don't particularly like Java because in spite of what some developers say, it is slow, very slow indeed. And the fact that Sun would push Java into OOo sooner or later... is that such a big surprise?
Java isn’t slow. Lazy java coders write slow Java code. There are plentiful books written on the subject. So my suggestion to those of you out there who are having performance issues is to read a good book. I recommend an O’Reilly book “Java Performance Tuning” By Jack Shirazi.
My Background: I have been coding app's for the last 15 years now in many different languages: C, C++, Lisp, Motif, MS VB/VC++, and Java. I started out as a skeptic (Java really did suck before version 1.3), but the performance improved drastically over the years. Also Java is a far more productive environment, I write about 1/10 the bugs and complete the coding cycle in less then half the time it took to write in C++ and the bugs are far easer to find and fix. I don’t know how many of you out their have written code in Motif, and then had to write the same GUI in VC++, just so you can run on different platforms? But the write once run anywhere approach was music to my ears. As a lead developer on my current project for the last 4 years, I have coded in every tier of our system. I have found it to be easer and faster to deploy new and replacement components in Java, and they have always performed better the C++ components they have replaced. Downside to java is it’s memory usage, it consumes 2-3 times the memory of a C++ app, but memory is much more plentiful now. So if you got lot use it.
Now as for Base, it is based on the HSQLDB an open source Java DB Engine. I have used HSQL 1.7 –1.7.3.3 for the last year. Our objective in switching from MS SQLServer was based solely on cost (Free is cheaper). But it has proven itself to be quite a capable database engine. It doesn’t have the bells and whistles, but then again we didn’t use the bells or the whistles. It's performance on JDBC based access is at least equal to if not better then SQLServer. It requires more maintenance the SQLServer though, tables types and sizes must be configured to meet the needs of the task at hand. The HSQL Team is busily working on version 1.8 now which will be included in OO. And should be as solid and maybe even a better the current version (1.7.3.3). I am sure your “It's not even alpha-quality” comment refers to the GUI component which I haven’t used yet, Give em’ time it can't be worse then the old OO DB<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) Well I think that’s enough ranting for now. Keep an open mind and try things out for yourself, you may be surprised.
Ken
My Background: I have been coding app's for the last 15 years now in many different languages: C, C++, Lisp, Motif, MS VB/VC++, and Java. I started out as a skeptic (Java really did suck before version 1.3), but the performance improved drastically over the years. Also Java is a far more productive environment, I write about 1/10 the bugs and complete the coding cycle in less then half the time it took to write in C++ and the bugs are far easer to find and fix. I don’t know how many of you out their have written code in Motif, and then had to write the same GUI in VC++, just so you can run on different platforms? But the write once run anywhere approach was music to my ears. As a lead developer on my current project for the last 4 years, I have coded in every tier of our system. I have found it to be easer and faster to deploy new and replacement components in Java, and they have always performed better the C++ components they have replaced. Downside to java is it’s memory usage, it consumes 2-3 times the memory of a C++ app, but memory is much more plentiful now. So if you got lot use it.
Now as for Base, it is based on the HSQLDB an open source Java DB Engine. I have used HSQL 1.7 –1.7.3.3 for the last year. Our objective in switching from MS SQLServer was based solely on cost (Free is cheaper). But it has proven itself to be quite a capable database engine. It doesn’t have the bells and whistles, but then again we didn’t use the bells or the whistles. It's performance on JDBC based access is at least equal to if not better then SQLServer. It requires more maintenance the SQLServer though, tables types and sizes must be configured to meet the needs of the task at hand. The HSQL Team is busily working on version 1.8 now which will be included in OO. And should be as solid and maybe even a better the current version (1.7.3.3). I am sure your “It's not even alpha-quality” comment refers to the GUI component which I haven’t used yet, Give em’ time it can't be worse then the old OO DB<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) Well I think that’s enough ranting for now. Keep an open mind and try things out for yourself, you may be surprised.
Ken
I think the OO decision is a good one, I don't care if Java is free/open or not. If all software was written in Java or any other portable language I wouldn't be stuck with so few OS choices (sure, aslong as the software is open-source even C would do, but wake up, all software isn't open-source).
I like java because it's portable, easier/faster (you don't have to reinvent all kinds of things time after time again, they are already there), "more secure" (one could argue about this one, but even if some people CAN write secure and bugfree C code the fact is many don't). Also the crap about java beeing slow is just bullshit, and if more good and large software like OO uses java it will be more commonly accepted and we will see more java programs, which imho is a good thing. Games written in java would be great.
To bad the zealots who doesn't care about using the best product have to complain in all cases. The fact is I don't care if my environment are free or not, why would it to begin with? Why should we force people to do it for free and give it away if they don't want to? What about the time you'll develop something of your own?
No, go Sun and go OO, however after the retarded decision to limit access to web information about Solaris it wont find it's place on my harddrive, good documentation is one of my top priorities for any product I choose.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>// aliquis@link-net.org
I like java because it's portable, easier/faster (you don't have to reinvent all kinds of things time after time again, they are already there), "more secure" (one could argue about this one, but even if some people CAN write secure and bugfree C code the fact is many don't). Also the crap about java beeing slow is just bullshit, and if more good and large software like OO uses java it will be more commonly accepted and we will see more java programs, which imho is a good thing. Games written in java would be great.
To bad the zealots who doesn't care about using the best product have to complain in all cases. The fact is I don't care if my environment are free or not, why would it to begin with? Why should we force people to do it for free and give it away if they don't want to? What about the time you'll develop something of your own?
No, go Sun and go OO, however after the retarded decision to limit access to web information about Solaris it wont find it's place on my harddrive, good documentation is one of my top priorities for any product I choose.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>// aliquis@link-net.org
java is NOT portable.
can you provide me a recent jre for OpenBSD ?
read on the article and others comments<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
So, does this mean no Java software is FOSS? Nothing from Apache? None of the myriad of Java apps in sourceforge or codehaus?
So, if you have a Java application and release it using the GPL, it's still not free?
Does this include Java apps belonging to the GNU project? Cos if so, I think someone ought to tell them. There's certainly plenty of links to Java apps in the Free Software Directory.
Let's not confuse lack of FOSS JREs with Java software not been FOSS.
No matter what others say, not running a perfectly acceptable Sun JRE just because it's not open source, is poltical decision, not a practical one.
Your Java software can be free, but you cannot distribute a Java runtime with it.
Your'e prabably a windoze user too? right?
Open source is all about freedom. Not being _forced_ into using something because some tom-fool says so, but because I want to.
I _want_ to use OpenOffice, but I _don't_ want Java. Now OpenOffice _forces_ me to use Java?
Bah! Humbug! OpenOffice can shove it where the sun don't shine. I'll rather support a debilitated half-cocked useless piece of crap software than OpenOffice if they don't get their act straight.
Of course, I'd prefer if someone forked the project, 'cos OpenOffice is still a damn sight better than M$-Office.
Open source is all about freedom. Not being _forced_ into using something because some tom-fool says so, but because I want to.
I _want_ to use OpenOffice, but I _don't_ want Java. Now OpenOffice _forces_ me to use Java?
Bah! Humbug! OpenOffice can shove it where the sun don't shine. I'll rather support a debilitated half-cocked useless piece of crap software than OpenOffice if they don't get their act straight.
Of course, I'd prefer if someone forked the project, 'cos OpenOffice is still a damn sight better than M$-Office.
I use Gentoo Linux and Windows XP. I'm not a Java developer, though I've dabbled.
Java to me is just a pain. When a promising app turns out to be in Java I've learned - through experience - that it's going to be slow to launch and horrible to use.
Because it's not free to redistribute, it has an annoying habit of not being there when needed, or if it needs upgrading to use application X, they can't supply me a copy so I have to go separately to Sun and agree to legal mumbo jumbo that I don't understand.
Never mind the ideology, OpenOffice.org are not putting their user's interests first here. Either they are unwilling to produce a Java-free app, or they are unable. Maybe it doesn't even matter which.
For that reason I'll be happy to support a fork if one arises, by using and advocating it, and by paying a contribution towards development and hosting.
The XFree86 fork in favour of Xorg worked nicely, so don't think it's not possible!
Java to me is just a pain. When a promising app turns out to be in Java I've learned - through experience - that it's going to be slow to launch and horrible to use.
Because it's not free to redistribute, it has an annoying habit of not being there when needed, or if it needs upgrading to use application X, they can't supply me a copy so I have to go separately to Sun and agree to legal mumbo jumbo that I don't understand.
Never mind the ideology, OpenOffice.org are not putting their user's interests first here. Either they are unwilling to produce a Java-free app, or they are unable. Maybe it doesn't even matter which.
For that reason I'll be happy to support a fork if one arises, by using and advocating it, and by paying a contribution towards development and hosting.
The XFree86 fork in favour of Xorg worked nicely, so don't think it's not possible!
The JRE (Java Runtime Environment) is free to distribute, and that's all you need to run Java applications.
but it does not exist for 64bits platform !!! (or very bugged version)
Therefore i agree with previous post... for me experience wise, java = bad.
Therefore i agree with previous post... for me experience wise, java = bad.
Sun contributes the most to Open Office, employs the most developers and creates a commercial edition of it in Star Office. It's not the developers' problem - if they're employed by Sun they're going to implement what the main contributor wants.
The fact is that Sun really wants Java to get used in corporate environments the way VB does and they have their JDS. They'll probably rename Open/Star Office to Java Office in the long-term. They want to create Open/Star Office in their image. The strange thing is, Java support in Gnome is total crap. You're supposed to use Swing?!
This is a hard-nosed play by Sun, and they're in this primarily for themselves not for the wider community. If they don't like it then they'll have to find something else. The funny thing is, most people who don't get into this sort of political thing will have a JRE installed anyway so they won't care.
The fact is that Sun really wants Java to get used in corporate environments the way VB does and they have their JDS. They'll probably rename Open/Star Office to Java Office in the long-term. They want to create Open/Star Office in their image. The strange thing is, Java support in Gnome is total crap. You're supposed to use Swing?!
This is a hard-nosed play by Sun, and they're in this primarily for themselves not for the wider community. If they don't like it then they'll have to find something else. The funny thing is, most people who don't get into this sort of political thing will have a JRE installed anyway so they won't care.
Sun could render the whole discussion moot...
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2005 11:59 PM
by delivering an open source version of Java. However, they don't really appreciate the problems it would cause for Java and OOo if they continue the status quo.
On the other hand, it may be that they understand these things quite well, and that is one of the many (but more minor) reasons they're targetting OpenSolaris at Linux.
On the other hand, it may be that they understand these things quite well, and that is one of the many (but more minor) reasons they're targetting OpenSolaris at Linux.
OpenOffice-2.x is a HOT topic lots of disagreements about it & the java jive...
is there going to be a fork?
i hope so...
i will stick with OpenOffice-1.1.4 until the dust settles and wait & see if there is a fork...
is there going to be a fork?
i hope so...
i will stick with OpenOffice-1.1.4 until the dust settles and wait & see if there is a fork...
You're supposed to be OSS, people!
That means if you don't like what someone is doing, fork it and/or write your own. Quit whining every time somebody does something that doesn't totally agree with your ideology.
Most of the arguments in the article against including Java in OO are lame. Sure, maybe it would have been better to write everything from scratch in C++ rather than go the easier way with Java in the long run. But for now, OO cannot compete against MS Office without an Access-like database - and if Java can provide one quickly, then do it. Like the developers said, you can always replace it later with something equivalent. As long as the user interface and functionality aren't serious changed causing backward compatibility problems for people developing database apps, who cares? (And even Microsoft breaks Access with its upgrades to TSQL in the MSDE.)
So far the response of the distros seems to be - we'll break OpenOffice by preventing Java from being used, or we'll use a crippled JRE because we don't have a good one.
Thanks a lot, distros! Nice way to promote OO!
Look, morons, Java is ALREADY on virtually every desktop (the complaints about some of the fringe OS's not having it as a reason not to do it are a joke). Even everybody with a Windows machine (on which OO is distributed if you've forgotten) has Java, despite MS's attempt to kill it. Java isn't going anywhere anytime soon - and even if Sun were to try to yank distribution rights later, it probably wouldn't be retroactive and would be ignored by the industry anyway.
Get used to change - it's not going away.
That means if you don't like what someone is doing, fork it and/or write your own. Quit whining every time somebody does something that doesn't totally agree with your ideology.
Most of the arguments in the article against including Java in OO are lame. Sure, maybe it would have been better to write everything from scratch in C++ rather than go the easier way with Java in the long run. But for now, OO cannot compete against MS Office without an Access-like database - and if Java can provide one quickly, then do it. Like the developers said, you can always replace it later with something equivalent. As long as the user interface and functionality aren't serious changed causing backward compatibility problems for people developing database apps, who cares? (And even Microsoft breaks Access with its upgrades to TSQL in the MSDE.)
So far the response of the distros seems to be - we'll break OpenOffice by preventing Java from being used, or we'll use a crippled JRE because we don't have a good one.
Thanks a lot, distros! Nice way to promote OO!
Look, morons, Java is ALREADY on virtually every desktop (the complaints about some of the fringe OS's not having it as a reason not to do it are a joke). Even everybody with a Windows machine (on which OO is distributed if you've forgotten) has Java, despite MS's attempt to kill it. Java isn't going anywhere anytime soon - and even if Sun were to try to yank distribution rights later, it probably wouldn't be retroactive and would be ignored by the industry anyway.
Get used to change - it's not going away.
Bah!
Perhaps they should change the name to JavaOffice.org, and then some of us can get down to the REAL work of developing a true OpenOffice.
Perhaps they should change the name to JavaOffice.org, and then some of us can get down to the REAL work of developing a true OpenOffice.
On this page just before where the comments begin is a field where you can vote on the importance of this bug. I encourage everyone to login/creat an account if you haven't already, go to the following link and cast your vote! ===> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/4h7jw" title="tinyurl.com">http://tinyurl.com/4h7jw</a tinyurl.com>
Time to fork I guess
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 28, 2005 09:45 PM#