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Gentoo 2006.0: Elbow grease required

By Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier on May 15, 2006 (8:00:00 AM)

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I've been toying with Gentoo 2006.0 off and on since it was released in February. Gentoo is a solid distribution, but it takes a little more work than most users might expect to get the distribution up and running.

Installing Gentoo using the manual method described in the Gentoo Handbook is, to put it bluntly, a royal pain. It's a good hands-on experience if you're looking to learn about the nitty-gritty of system configuration, but a lousy way to install Linux quickly, and almost certain to be intimidating for anyone who's not well-versed with Linux already.

I recommend that anyone interested in learning about Linux try the manual Gentoo installation once -- and then give thanks that all of that silliness is no longer required just to get a system up and running because we have much more advanced installers now.

I was interested when I read that this version of Gentoo had a graphical installer, but my hopes fell when I read the welcome greeting for the GUI installer:

It is highly recommended that you have gone through the manual install process a time or two, or at least read through the install guide. The purpose of this installer is not to make the install easier but to make it quicker. Don't ask questions that are covered by the install guide, or we shall taunt you a second time.

Quicker, but not easier. That wasn't encouraging. The tone of the FAQ for the GUI installer doesn't exactly inspire optimism, either. Despite that, I gave it a shot anyway -- but the Gentoo GUI installer bombed out on me several times on different machines, and within VMware Workstation.

I had better luck with the text-mode installer. I used the text mode installer on the Gentoo live CD on an AMD XP 2000+ machine with 1GB of RAM, and it installed Gentoo without any problems.

Using Gentoo

Once the install was complete, I restarted the system and logged into GNOME. The default GNOME install included a decent set of desktop applications applications to start with -- not quite so many as a default Ubuntu install (for example), but certainly enough to get started.

The first thing I noticed was that my screen resolution was a bit off. I was using a Dell 2005FPW 20.1-inch widescreen monitor plugged into the system, with an ATI video card that will do 1680x1050. Instead, it was configured for 1024x768. The GNOME screen resolution applet only offered 1024x768, 800x600, and 640x480. (Does anyone still use 640x480?) Gentoo doesn't offer any handy X.org configuration tools that I could find, so I ended up using the xorgcfg utility, which is a stock part of X.org, to change the resolution.

After getting X squared away, I noticed that I had no sound. Again, after some researching, the only option I had to get sound support for my Gentoo machine seemed to be more complex than is usual for desktop distros.

Another stumbling block is that Gentoo isn't set up to automount removable media, such as CD-ROMs and USB keys. The Gentoo wiki does have instructions on setting it up, but most users will expect this to work by default.

While playing with Gentoo, I found myself spending a lot more time than usual combing through the documentation to find out how to enable features that weren't immediately available -- things that I've grown used to having up and running as soon as I do an install.

The long and short of it is that Gentoo doesn't really offer the same kind of configuration tools or "out of the box" experience that desktop users usually want. If you want a wizard-type tool for setting up X or a YaST-type of tool for configuring hardware or Apache, Gentoo probably isn't for you. On the other hand, if you're used to using tools like xorgcfg, then Gentoo might be a good choice.

Using Portage

Gentoo doesn't use RPM or the Debian package formats. Instead, it uses Portage, which is much like the BSD Ports system. Rather than grabbing a precompiled package, you can "emerge" a new application or update, which downloads the source code for an application and then compiles it.

Two advantages of this approach are control and optimization. Gentoo and Portage give you a great deal of control over how packages are compiled, and the theory is that packages compiled for your specific processor and with the optimizations that you want to use will be faster than packages compiled for the lowest common denominator. If you're using a distro like Ubuntu, Red Hat/Fedora, SUSE, or most others, you're going to get packages that are compiled for a wide set of machines, which usually means targeting a lowest common denominator, so you're not necessarily getting the most out of your system.

How well does this work in practice? I didn't do any serious comparisons, but using the GNOME desktop on my test machine seemed a bit faster than usual.

Portage has its downsides as well. For one thing, getting new packages and upgrading existing ones tends to take much longer than getting an RPM or Debian package. This is certainly true when you're talking about updating several packages at a time, such as when you use something like emerge -uD world to update the entire system after doing a fresh install.

Note that you can smooth this out a bit in larger environments by using a build host and building packages for systems on a single machine, then grabbing binary packages from it on other machines. However, this is only really suitable for users who have deployed Gentoo on several systems.

Another downside to Portage is that you will run into the occasional build error. While build errors are something that I've been used to for some time, I doubt that many users are going to feel like fussing with them. To be fair, I've also run into problems with RPMs and Debian packages, though not as often.

On the plus side, Gentoo's Portage tree has thousands of packages, so the odds are that if you want to install a piece of open source software, it's probably just an emerge away.

However, the number of precompiled packages included on the installer CD is limited. Precompiled GNOME packages are included on the live CD, and basic packages like the GIMP, Emacs, Vim, Firefox, MPlayer, XMMS, Gaim, Xchat, and some games. The default install is much like many other single-CD Linux installers -- you have enough to get up and running, and to provide a basic desktop, but you'll probably want to install additional packages after the install.

DIY paradise

The bottom line is that Gentoo is a great distro for do-it-yourselfers, but probably not well-suited for users who want to install and use a distro without seeing the command line.

Gentoo's installer is a huge barrier to entry for prospective users. However, some resources exist to let users try Gentoo without all the hassles. First, you can run the Gentoo live CD to give it a test drive. Another option is to run Gentoo within the VMware Player or VMware Workstation, using a pre-made virtual image. This is my favorite option, since it provides an opportunity to try Gentoo with few hassles. If you have a fast connection, you can download the image and fire it up in less than 20 minutes.

Finally, you might look at Kororaa, which is a Gentoo-derived distro that's supposed to be easier to install, and fully compatible with Gentoo once it's installed.

You might think, because I've criticized the installer, that I don't like Gentoo itself. Not so. I think the Gentoo project has come up with a great distro for users who want fine-grained control over their systems. The developers have put a lot of effort into supporting multiple architectures, and the documentation certainly is extensive.

But users should understand what they're getting into before trying Gentoo. If you'd like to use Gentoo on your system, be prepared to spend some serious time reading the Gentoo documentation and learning about the tools you'll need to use to manage your system. If this sounds reasonable to you, then you'll probably enjoy using Gentoo.

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Not much of a column..

Posted by: Fletch on May 16, 2006 01:51 AM
The only saving grace to this article was the last few paragraphs, as it seemed to me that the author did not understand Gentoo's purpose and scope. I was almost about to suggest that the author run Red Hat, Ubuntu, SuSE, or someother "user-friendly-super-gui-don't-use-your-brain" ditros, but it seemed as if he or she stated his or her purpose as explaining Gentoo's lack of ease of installation to new users. So...okay...we have heard about that already. Gentoo may or may not be a good avenue for beginners, but the reason I like suggesting it for beginners as for those who are really serious about learning Linux, it is a good way of learning it as it lets you turn screws and bolts. Many users jump from Windows thinking "where the hell is my start menu?", and while a GUI can be used on top of Linux based operating systems, it doesn't really entail what Linux is. Those GUI's generally run on top of Solaris, FreeBSD, etc., so that doesn't really give someone the knowledge of what Linux is. And again, while I too am a Gentoo user, I certainly have my fair share of complaints at the current direction of Gentoo, and for that matter, the Linux kernel itself. However, I'm also very patient, and as long as the developer community is willing to listen to bug findings and accept suggested fixes, then I have no real reason to complain because all are human, and all are prone to err. I am using kernel 2.6.16 at the moment, but I think my last kernel that I liked was 2.6.7. I think the USB support has taken a turn for the worse since that version, and then there are the issues with udev, hotplug, etc, as far as it seems to be a moving target with implementation and functionality. I'm not saying there really is anything wrong with this, but really, shouldn't this all occur in the 2.7 tree? Isn't that the purpose of having the understood development versions? It seems that 2.6 became weird in that fashion as opposed to the past. Getting back on the subject, I'm not too fond of Gentoo moving away from the way applications and services were intended to run, and moving them to a standard that Gentoo has created. My main complaint is how in the golden olden days, rp-ppoe, pptp, etc used to have their configs stored in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/ppp, and now there are strange start/stop scripts that are created in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/init.d that are usually net., and then in the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/conf.d/net config file, there are options that are never really fully documented (and yes, I know of the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/conf.d/net.example file as well....it doesn't cut it. I would think these changes would be documented in a document on Gentoo's site, but based on what one of the developer's have stated, I still do not see this working properly (more specifically, the functionality of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/ppp/ip-up. Oh well, I'm not going to get into all the specifics, but I can certainly say there are small issues surfacing, and while I don't mind tolerating these from time to time, but if too many of them occur, then it makes me unfunctional in my environment, and I have to find higher ground from which to gain support.

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Re:Not much of a column..

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 16, 2006 02:12 PM
There aren't "development" versions of the kernel anymore.

see: <a href="http://www.wlug.org.nz/LinuxKernel2.6" title="wlug.org.nz">http://www.wlug.org.nz/LinuxKernel2.6</a wlug.org.nz>

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Gentoo is a Source based Distro!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 15, 2006 11:35 PM
If you are not comfortable with editing texts.. then i encourage you to look for distros like Ubuntu.
The Reason why we Love gentoo (we=Gentoo users).. it is because your able to edit, modify, change... the entire system.. we wouldnt like it different.

Also the GUI install is pretty straight forward, if you have some base linux experience. If you dont.. well, like i said before, get yours hand on ubuntu or something that fits your needs better.

with linux you have a really wide Variety of Flavor.. im pretty sure you'll find something that fits you well.

GENTOO ROCKS!!!!!!!!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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Re:Gentoo is a Source based Distro!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 16, 2006 12:50 AM
Yes back to stoneage, in FreeBSD I am installing from source too. But I do not have to invent everything already known! So Gentoo is something for system lovers, not for real world use in terms of time and priority of tasks! The Ubuntu reference is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... forget it, i am no trollhunter.

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Re:Gentoo is a Source based Distro!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 16, 2006 01:03 AM
I think problems occur when people approach Gentoo as they would any other distro. The whole point of Gentoo is to provide a distro for people who love elbow grease and love tweaking (but don't want LFS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:).

I don't think I would even call Gentoo a distribution (I don't mean this in a bad way, but just to make it clear to those new to linux). A distribution provides a convenient means of installing software by giving the user pre-compiled, pre-tested, platform-specific, binary `packages'. Gentoo is a little different -- it provides the user with a (relatively) easy means to obtain the source code of a `package', patch it (to fix security holes and make it play nice with the other packages), compile it (with as much optimization as you want), and install it.

The testing/patching of gentoo does not occur in a lab somewhere, it occurs with the user -- when the user finds a package unable to compile, he forwards it to the Gentoo community (probably in addition to the package maintainers), who in turn figure out what's wrong and create fixes for it. When enough people seem to be using all the patches without too many problems, a `stable' release is announced. This has much more of the community-oriented spirit that is essential to open source software.

The advantages are many: the user has a feeling of accomplishment (even if s/he may do nothing more than compile a set of sources/patches prepared by someone else), the user may develop an understanding of how different parts/pieces of an operating system work together (then again, s/he may not), the user is able to customize to his/her heart's content, the extra customization aids the developers in finding configuration-specific bugs (for example: normally, a software writer makes sure his/her software compiles on as many machines/configurations as s/he can. Additionally, it must compile on the various machines/configurations of the popular distributions (which are usually lowest-common-denominator configurations) such as Debian, Fedora Core, etc. The Gentoo philosophy increases probability of a user with an unanticipated configuration finding a bug during compilation.).

Gentoo is for people who like the philosophy mentioned above. People who want something educational/customizable like Linux From Scratch, but also want it to be production-quality (without making great efforts). Gentoo is not for people hopping from one distribution to another. It should not be compared to normal distributions. Over all, it is about the user having fun -- the way open source was meant to be.

Now I have to get back to writing that essay due tomorrow.

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Re:Gentoo is a Source based Distro!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 16, 2006 04:17 PM
Gentoo is something like LFS in your vision?

With Gentoo I am able to :

    - configure the features that I want and get rid the ones I don't need by simply adding USE flags

    - maintain a system indefinitely, as easy as running "emerge -uDN world"

These qualities are the ones that made a gentooer out of me. It may be a little hard to install Gentoo but its maintainability make it irrelevant.

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used to love gentoo...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 16, 2006 05:06 AM
But, they constantly make it a real pain in the arse to maintain a stable environment without a lot of work because they keep changing portage layouts. Plus the packages are getting way out of date. It may be lack of manpower or something else, but in most cases it's better to go with a stock centos install and hand install the software you really need up-to-date.

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Review does not do Gentoo justice

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 16, 2006 05:44 AM
Gentoo is a meta-distribution. With it, you build a GNU/Linux system comprised of the software you chose, with the compilation features you desire.

As far as installers go, I'm still against a graphical installer. Gentoo doesn't need more users, it needs more *skilled* users who can contribute. The wiki is full of wrong info and Bugzilla is littered with bugs that have resulted from a user error, not a system problem. If you find it hard to install Gentoo, you have limited Linux/*NIX knowledge and should stick to a binary distribution anyways. If you can't make/format partitions, use tar, compile a kernel and use a command-line editor, Gentoo isn't for you.

Also, to the person who posted that the packages are out of date -- what?? Gnome 2.14, KDE 3.5, Apache 2.2, MySQL 5.1, Firefox 1.5.0.3, Xorg 7.1RC2, etc. are all available in Portage. Xgl and Compiz are available from a community project (and probably served as one of the leading early Xgl testing/bugsquashing groups). If you write your own ebuilds, it's even easy to routinely build software from its CVS/SVN repo. What else and how much newer could you want?

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Re:Review does not do Gentoo justice

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 17, 2006 01:40 AM
What are you talking about? The reviewer clearly states that this is a great distro for users who want fine grained control, but a bad choise for people who are terrified of the "black window" -- Exactly what you state in your comment, and basically what we all know.

Besides, I dont think the other user complained about the major packages. There are thousands of people ready to maintain KDE and xorg, since these are packages used by everyone and gets lots of attention. Its far less appealing for developers to spend their spare time maintaing, lets say bc and windowmaker, as they might find themselves wondering wether anyone cares at all.

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Re:Review does not do Gentoo justice

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 17, 2006 03:02 AM
Thanks for your reply, but wrong and wrong. The point I made, and the point you are missing, is that a GUI is mutually exclusive to the actual target user of Gentoo. The author spends a decent amount of time reviewing (and criticizing) the GUI installer, and gives Gentoo a less-than-stellar overall review, in part because of that GUI installer. Which is exactly like giving a Ferarri a bad review because the cupholder can't hold a Super BigGulp.

WindowMaker in Portage: 0.92.0
Newest on windowmaker.info: 0.92.0

bc in Portage: 1.06
Newest on fsf.org: 1.06

Any others? Package for package, Gentoo has the most up-to-date available packages around. Do some research before you post.

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Re:Review does not do Gentoo justice

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 19, 2006 02:56 AM
Sure, major packages like bc and windowmaker might be up-to-date, but what about minor peripheral bits like gcc or glibc?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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Re:Review does not do Gentoo justice

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 25, 2006 10:25 AM
xorg 7.1 now in portage. any other distros shipping with it??????? didnt think so. love the morons who think portage is outdated.

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I've never seen the point in Gentoo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 16, 2006 09:20 PM
My opinion is that Gentoo is for those who place no value on their free time. I tried the version discussed above and it took over 10 hours to compile Gnome, I eventually gave up. Surely any performance benefits gained from compiling from source are lost during the tedious installation process??

The one thing Gentoo has got right is it's documentation, the Gentoo Wiki and installation guide is really outstanding, hugely detailed and informative.

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Re:I've never seen the point in Gentoo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 17, 2006 12:19 AM
Sorry to break it to you, but some of us actually like learning how our computers work. I know you can do that with Linux From Scratch, but then every time you upgrade the system, it's like doing a new install. That's the advantage that Gentoo has over LFS.

That DOESN'T mean we don't "place any value on our free time". That's as insulting to us as saying that would be to people who like making quilts.

Me? I didn't even waste any time WATCHING "How To Make An American Quilt". Those who do make them are free to compile Gentoo instead, or not.

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Re:I've never seen the point in Gentoo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 17, 2006 03:04 AM
Hmmm,...so Gentoo users know more about their computers then say a Windows or Suse user? I learned more about computers using the DOS debug command and an assembler then installing Gentoo would even come close to offering!

Don't make wild, baseless claims that you can't reasonably support with fact. You may know more about Gentoo then me, but is that really a perk? To you, possibly. To me, no way.

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Re:I've never seen the point in Gentoo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 18, 2006 05:35 AM
Ok then, perhaps I should have said "learn more about Linux".

Nevertheless (and the poster after me made this point better than I'm going to), if you have the time and skills to install Gentoo, it really isn't that hard to deal with once it's installed. To be fair, that has a lot to do with the community, but a community wouldn't form around something that everyone saw as "pointless".

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Re:I've never seen the point in Gentoo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 17, 2006 04:15 AM
It's not that I don't value my time, it just that it is worth it after the compiling process is done - having a system that performs<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/so/ much better. I think its worth it anyway.

Also, it is not necessary to install all of Gnome - just install the pieces that you need. Are you really going to use all those packages? It doesn't have to take 10 hours to compile...

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Re:I've never seen the point in Gentoo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 23, 2006 09:05 AM
I bet many Gentoo users can't even verbalize the real reason they love it so much. The real reason is FREEDOM. I've been using Gentoo exclusively for the past 4 years, and I only remember how much I appreciate it when I try to install another distro. Ever tried to install a simple image viewer, and have the dependencies include 50 unrelated packages, including audio editing packages, and Evolution? Wonder why sendmail is installed by default? It never fails... The only way to get the software installed that I REALLY WANT is to use Gentoo. Forget about compiler optimizations and the other crap ignorant non-users complain about-- I only know of one mainstream distro that allows me do do WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT with no fuss, and that's Gentoo.

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Missing advantage

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 17, 2006 03:45 AM
One of the major advantages of Gentoo is missing from the article and the comments so far: A Gentoo system doesn't get outdated (provided you emerge every now and then). Any other distro, SuSE, Fedora, you name it, gets official support until the next version comes out or a little later, and then you have to upgrade to the next version if you want to stay up to date. I did that with SuSE 9.0 to 9.1, and ended up having to install it anew. When SuSE 9.1 got old and got no more updates apart from security patches, I found myself increasingly digging up source code from the net and compiling it - with lots of dependency errors, resulting in far more problems than Gentoo ever gave me.

Sure, doing a weekly update with emerge can take a night occasionally, but hey, I need to sleep, too. It's not as if we're all sitting in front of our computers, doing stuff, 24/7.

One more thing about portage: yes, there are very recent builds of most things, but mostly they are masked (meaning: not available if you only want a stable installation). Isn't stable Firefox still at 1.0.7 or so? In any case it used to be that a long time, when 1.5 was out already. If you want to play it safe and not unmask the unstable packages, the system will not necessarily be as up to date as a very recent distribution by someone else.

As for speed, Gentoo definitely outperforms the SuSE I had on the same system before. So, I'm very happy with my Gentoo, but wouldn't recommend it to the normal user with no geek interest either.

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the gentoo way...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 17, 2006 04:41 PM
gentoo is a meta distribution, it means you can set ot up to suit your personal needs, without all the bloat that usually comes with other distributions. there's only one flavour of gentoo, no need to offer a server version, a desktop version, a whatever-you-might-be-interested-in version : you build your own gentoo, according to your needs.

the graphical installer is kind of a joke but at least it allows you to have a working workstation while building your system.

building or installing new software is sometime irritating because of the time it take to compile a program and its dependencies. updating a program is not a problem because you can compile in background and carry on using your system.

gentoo documentation is the best out there : it might seems a bit reluctant, but it is very useful and understandable even for noobs : gentoo was the first distro i ever installed (i didn't know anything about linux before) ; it took me quite some time but i learned a lot, and it went flawlessly. so as long as you can read and type, you can install gentoo. i didn't have any linux/unix skills and figured out how to install gentoo. i even compiled my kernel manually !!

so pros are :
- customisation,
- optimisation,
- good docs,
- helpful community,
- good software management,
- plenty of software available through portage.

cons are :
- compiling time (sometimes binaries would just be enough),
- you indeed sometimes wish some things would work without going through the docs...

it's not the perfect distro, but it's very customisable and handy.

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anonymous reader

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 04, 2006 02:39 PM
About your complaint about xorg and the screen resolution, all you have to do is edit<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/X11/xorg.conf and restart X. It really isn't that hard.

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Re:anonymous reader

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 17, 2006 11:56 AM
But I can't seem to emerge clue/bat!?!?!

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Gentoo Good

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2006 05:37 AM
Gentoo does not tie configurations to gui tools. Gentoo is well organized and has good documentation. Sometimes you want a desktop machine that is quick to install(ubuntu), but for a router/vpn/firewall/file server/proxy I prefer gentoo. I jumped to gentoo when Redhat went enterprise and the enterprise clones had broken gui config tools. I would point new users to gentoo because of the documentation. The gui install is flawed, but you can sudo and install from the command line using the live cd. I tried building an ubuntu server but found that I would have to know some debian history and rigging.

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I Love Gentoo

Posted by: Administrator on May 16, 2006 09:45 AM
I completely agree with what everyone (including the author) has said here about gentoo. Yes, even including the "pain in the arse" comment. But it is a really fun pain in the arse that always proves to be a learning experience. Of course at work I am always instructing users to edit this or that file on a Red Hat system and they are asking where the GUI config tool is. I don't even know!

I seriously love to do all my configuration with vim. I have my bash shell set up to use vi keybindings and I always have one of my two screens dedicated to a full-screen GNU screen session. I believe that these are some of the things that Gentoo lovers have in common (not necessarily the specifics).

The only negative is that I expect every other distro I play with to be as fast as my Gentoo system and it hasn't happened yet!

Bottom line, use Gentoo and you'll learn something. But you can't really "dabble" in it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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