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GNOME needs women

By Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier on June 16, 2006 (8:00:00 AM)

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The GNOME Foundation received 181 applications for the Google Summer of Code (SoC) program, but not a single application was from a female developer. The lack of women participating in GNOME, and free software in general, has spurred the GNOME foundation to start a summer program to reach out to female developers.

The Women's Summer Outreach Program (WSOP) will accept three developers, and pay a stipend of $3,000 to each developer for a project to be completed by September. Like Google's SoC, the program is geared to students.

The projects do not need to be directly tied to GNOME -- projects focusing on software related to GNOME, such as AbiWord and GStreamer, would also be accepted. The GNOME project has a list of potential projects, but developers are not limited to those ideas.

Hanna Wallach, a GNOME and Debian developer who helped get the WSOP off the ground, says that the GNOME Foundation would consider non-code projects "on a case-by-case basis," but that "we'd prefer the projects be linked to development.

"There's a common perception that women are better suited to tasks related to communication and writing -- we'd like for this program to show that this is not necessarily the case -- women can be kick-ass developers too!"

Interested developers can find more information on the WSOP Web site, and the site also includes poster images for distribution to gather interest. Applications are due by July 1.

Barriers to women in free software projects

The realization that few women are involved in free and open source software is not a new one, of course. The Free/Libre and Open Source Software (FLOSS) Survey and Study from 2002, and the Free/Libre/Open Source Software: Policy Support (FLOSS-POLS) report released this past March, address the gender disparity in FOSS projects.

Socialization plays into the problem. Wallach points out an "overwhelming perception in free software" that people choose interests based on "internal motivations." However, Wallach argues that "peers and teachers have a significant impact on people's choices and paths in life" and cites the FLOSSPOLS results that show males typically have their own computer at age 15, while women typically receive their first computer at 19. Four years can make a difference when one is defining one's interests.

Apparently, though, the problem is more pronounced with free and open source software projects. If there's one area where proprietary software edges out free software, it's in the ratio of women to men. Wallach says the study in 2002 found that about 25% of proprietary software developers were female, while only 1.5% of free software developers were female.

That means that FOSS projects are potentially losing valuable contributors to proprietary software. According to GNOME Foundation board member Vincent Untz, "If we ignore this, then we lose a lot of potential contributors. Those contributors would also bring us more diversity, which is good since it will help us accomplish even more. This is not an issue that is specific to GNOME, and we want to highlight it, make people think about it, and get them to work on this."

Do free and open source software projects actively discourage female developers? Wallach says that women "aren't being actively discouraged from participating, however they are often put off by the fact that many free software projects are almost exclusively male and often embody the assumption that developers will be male."

Untz agrees, saying that "I don't know of any project hostile to women.... However there are some behaviors that just don't help women. It's not surprising since there are so many men and so few women right now, but we should stop this. Often, those behaviors are just some comments that can sound insulting for women."

For example, Untz suggests that the practice of flaming between developers might put off any potential contributors, including women. "Flaming is also something that makes it difficult for new contributors (and not just women) to start working with us: when you're not confident in your abilities, it can be hard to argue with well-known contributors."

Untz also suggests mentoring newcomers and helping them understand "how the community works, and how to work with it.... When you think about it, a lot of the things that could be improved would not only help women, but all newcomers."

Chris Ball, who helped start the project with Wallach, says that it's not enough to avoid being "actively sexist" but "we need to be working to encourage women as well as not actively discouraging them!"

Ball says that the sheer ratio of men to women is intimidating. "We can imagine a woman walking into a room with a hundred men in it, and how uncomfortable it would feel, to get an idea of how it's a discouragement."

While FOSS projects may be particularly intimidating to women, GNOME Foundation board member Jeff Waugh says that they can also play "a major role in fixing" the problem, "because we are so open and inclusive."

In an interesting twist, Waugh suggests that older women developers may also contribute to discourage young women from becoming involved in projects. "One thing that concerns me about younger women understanding gender issues and getting involved in computing is the perspective from older women, who had to fight the hard slog against sexism over the past few decades. Often they can be quite dispositive about this stuff. Younger women have greater exposure to computing than ever before, and are often very computer-savvy, but can sometimes be scared away by older women in IT -- who are apparently trying to help them!

"Girls need rocking, positive role models to show that they can do cool, world-changing things with computers if they want to. We in the Free Software community are changing the world for the better, so we need female role models that reflect our awesome, positive mission."

Looking beyond the summer

Of course, no matter how successful the outreach program is, it won't be enough to solve the problem completely. Wallach says that the most important thing the community could do is to "read the FLOSSPOLS report and recommendations."

Wallach also recommends that developers should consider that "lack of experience doesn't mean lack of ability.... Given time and encouragement, women can (and do!) become awesome developers." She also says that developers should talk to women about getting involved with projects, "make it clear that there are a multitude of ways to participate, including (but not limited to) coding, bug squashing, testing and bug reporting, documentation writing, and translation."

In addition, developers should avoid telling women "RTFM" and instead "give helpful and constructive advice," as well as treat women "as equal participants in the free software community."

What will constitute success? Waugh describes success as "three keen-bean hackers writing some cool code for GNOME, learning a lot about our platform and community ... and being paid for it! An overwhelming success would be to see three keen-bean hackers joining the GNOME community in the long term, encouraging other women to get involved, and in their own way, becoming role models for our community."

Untz says that it's not enough to send the message to women that they're able to contribute, but we also need to send the free software community the message that the current situation is unacceptable, and that "waiting is not a solution." According to Untz, "Completion of the projects and a good and wide reception of those messages will make this program a success."

Finally, Wallach says that the GNOME Foundation wants to "set a precedent for other free software projects. We'd like for the program to be seen as a clear demonstration that there are things that can be done to encourage women's participation even when there's such a striking imbalance."

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on GNOME needs women

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They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 16, 2006 05:59 PM
<a href="http://women.kde.org/" title="kde.org">http://women.kde.org/</a kde.org>

No flame war about Gnome/KDE here. They already know that KDE is best<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 16, 2006 07:21 PM
Oh yeah, that's really helpful. Nothing like a good biased flame inducing post to get women to join up.

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 16, 2006 08:07 PM
Real Men use gnome. Women<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/womanly men use KDE.

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 16, 2006 10:44 PM
What crap.

Real men don't use mice, they use VT100, or maybe ION. And, they don't eat quiche.

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 03:38 AM
Actually Real Men use punch cards!!!

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 19, 2006 08:49 AM
Yes...but only to pry the bugs out of the knife switches in ENIAC, which All Real Men (TM) recognize as the One Real Computer Architecture (O.R.C.A.--it's a whale of a spec). All others are mere pretender wannabes.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

--Sent from an ENIAC emulator on a GNU/Linux box

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 16, 2006 09:49 PM
KDE.... Here's a look at the "woman equation"

It's like Mary Kay.... Superficial....lol

Or rather its more like Tammy Faye Baker.... TOO MUCH Make up...

when you gonna learn that inundating is not innovating?

oooo can you feel the burn?... turn it up I need a backdraft!!!

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 05:48 AM
You're a GNOME user and have no women interested in coding for your project. The most you can do is pull out stale jokes about make-up being superficial. And you wonder why women prefer KDE? KDE still wins.

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Re:They have more sense and code for KDE!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 07:08 AM
mmm, pretty shiny KDE...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
it may seem silly, but part of the reason I became a kde dev really was because it looked nicer than gnome.

I like shiny things<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D

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Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 16, 2006 10:00 PM
I am a Black man. I see precious *FEW* other Blacks at all, and it seems that Black men are quite actively discouraged by at least USA society (not the hacker community, I mean general socialization in this country) to be at all "computer savvy." Despite this, I happen to be a systems engineer who can even hack out some code when I need to.

Why, given the obstacles that faced me, am I in this business today? Simple: because I CHOSE to do so. So can these (nearly always White) women who complain about not being coddled in the hacker community. Nobody in the hacker community or any other engineering community ever coddles me; I get no special treatment for being Black. Neither should females for being female.

If you want to join in the development, or other engineering, process, then by all means do so. I'm proof that it can happen. But don't expect me to treat you "special" just because you're female...until you're prepared to treat me "special" for not being White.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 12:55 AM
How exactly were you "Discouraged" from seeking an education and career in programming or "being computer savvy? How has "US Society" done this? Should I used stereotypes to ask for clarification? Like it's more important to own a tricked out car, spinning rims, be a rapper, or have those Air Jordans?

Especially in today's world of free and open source.. you don't even need to buy manuals. You only need the man command and a connection to the net to find documentation online.

Oh... and two more things.... desire and DRIVE.

This whole debate is stupid. There does not need to be any "Equality" in this. Women do not tend to go into these fields. They are naturally fewer numbers of them. And the likelihood that you would have large numbers of them in something as esoteric as GNOME programming is even smaller.

It's pointless to inject racial and gender arguments into this.. Ultimately all I care about is whoever is involved KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.... If you want to ruin a software product go ahead and start seeking developers based on sex and race and NOT MERIT. Now Flame me for my politically incorrect views.......

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Daniel Carrera on June 17, 2006 03:38 AM
Does it really make sense to you that only 1% of free software hackers be female? Do you honestly believe that this is an apt reflection of our biological differences?

Other technical fields such as mathematics and physics have a *much* higher proportion of females, and those are fields were females are known to be actively discouraged by society.

If you believe that 1% is not indicative of the biological differences between men and women, then we're missing out on good potential contributors and it is worth trying to correct the problem.

Daniel.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 03:54 AM
I doubt highly the insinuation that there is some conspiracy to keep women out of programming for FOSS. The logic does not hold up. Contribution to FOSS is not likely to be put through the rigors of a normal job search.

As to that, what constitutes a "developer" in these numbers? For all we know they are lumping VBA or some other goup into this mix.

Any initiative that looks at race or gender, and then skill is destined to fail. What is the point of artificially inflating a demographic? Does it not occur that perhaps women developers are busy trying to make it in the propietary world?

This is simply a "Feel Good" initiative devoid of sense. I would trade 10,000 programmers brought about this way for any ONE expert regardless of race or gender...

With a budget like M$ has, do you really think any career minded woman would drop the perceived prestige of a M$ developer position for FOSS? Dollars to doughnuts a large portion of this is actually related to the IDE. It's much more productive to use a visual quite than to hammer out a bunch of C code to manage a simple window...

In any case this initiative is an insult to women, programmers, and anyone with a drop of critical thinking by suggesting that you should spend your time on PC Demographical manipulation over skill... nuff said.

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You really shouldn't flaunt your ignorance...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 05:18 AM
so proudly. If you had a clue you would recognize that there is a problem, and the GNOME initiative is one way to help correct it. Of course admitting that there is a problem would mean you'd have to listen to other people, and that is just plain intolerable for you.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: WarPengi on June 17, 2006 05:34 PM
Of course we know that women are paid less for the same work as men. I guess you're reasoning would be that they like it that way. Same thing for blacks, they want to be poorer and live shorter lives and earn less than whites. It's not some kind of social prejudice causing this. Or even if they don't want it that way they are too lazy to do anything about it. Or maybe it's not laziness but that they are not willing to take the same risks as men. They aren't Christian and don't try to live good lives like God wants them to so of course He doesn't reward them like He does us. They just don't have the drive to succeed.

The justifications and rationalizations for one group dominating another are boundless. The simple truth is that prejudice exists and it affects how well one can succeed in any field.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Daniel Carrera on June 18, 2006 06:57 AM
> I doubt highly the insinuation that there is
> some conspiracy to keep women out of programming
> for FOSS.

This is a strawman. No one suggested a conspiracy. But the fact that there are so few women who are free software developers compared to other technical field (magnitudes less) shows that there are barriers. Removing those barriers is a good idea, not just because it's fair, but because FOSS would benefit.

> Any initiative that looks at race or gender,
> and then skill is destined to fail.

Such an absolute statement is almost always wrong. In this case, there are plenty of prior examples both in FOSS and other technical fields of successful initiatives.

> With a budget like M$ has, do you really think
> any career minded woman would drop the
> perceived prestige of a M$ developer position
> for FOSS?

Why do you feel that your logic applies any different to women? Do you feel that there is something about having an extra X chromosome that makes one more likely to choose MS to the point where having a 99% male population in FOSS is reasonable? Do you honestly feel that a 99-to-1 ratio is indicative of our biological differences?

> In any case this initiative is an insult to
> women, programmers

I've heard from several women programmers who strongly support this sort of initiative. I have not heard a single one who disliked it.

Best,
Daniel.

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Women can contribute...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 05:29 AM
They can line up and let Linus inseminate them and breed the next generation of "Uber Hackers"!

That would be helpful.

Hard part is who gets to reproduce and who doesn't?

Linus - Yes
RMS - Maybe *duck*
Bruce Perens - Hell NO!

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This is an example of what's keeping women away!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 09:47 AM
[nt]

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Re:Women can contribute...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 19, 2006 04:17 PM
Translation: Duh, women have eggs and fallopian tubes, the best way they can contribute to FOSS is to form a harem for Linus Torvalds so they can bear baby hackers.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... And people wonder why there are very few women in FOSS development. Comments like this are sure to make women feel very welcome, indeed.

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Re:Women can contribute...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 26, 2006 08:58 PM
That is a really bad idea, Mrs Torvalds is a black belt champion in Karate and you wouldn't want to piss her off.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 09:13 AM
" There does not need to be any "Equality" in this. Women do not tend to go into these fields. They are naturally fewer numbers of them. And the likelihood that you would have large numbers of them in something as esoteric as GNOME programming is even smaller."

I don't see anyone advocating a 50/50 split, because that is obviously not going to happen. Rather, the goal is to remove the obstacles that are already hindering women who wish to contribute to FOSS. It's a constructive solution to a widespread problem.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 19, 2006 02:43 AM
Myriad ways. Go to nearly any predominately Black inner-city school and check out the education level. It's just assumed that "they just can't learn" by so many teachers and administrators. This is particularly true toward the boys. It's further assumed in the case of Black males that "they're gangstas", which is, sadly, true in too many instances for my personal taste, but is hardly universal and never described me. More than one teacher suggested to me that I take auto shop and become, perhaps, a car mechanic, "you know, a job that you can reasonably get." I said "Nuts" to that and chose to study computers anyway.

The result? Today I pull in six figures annually for basically getting to go and play with really cool technological stuff. That's how I view it, because it's just so much fun. Getting up and going to work is, for me, a joy, even if I'm nearly always "the only speck of pepper in a sea of salt". Do I let that stop me? Obviously not! I'm too busy having fun enjoying my wonderful career.

It sounds like you and I actually agree here. The point I'm making is that I didn't get to where I am by being coddled like these (predominately White) women and their feminist sympathizers are advocating be done for them (you don't hear them advocating the same for me anyway, now, do you--talk about double standards!). I did it by busting my butt and learning from, as well as adjusting to when necessary, the existing engineer/hacker "culture". That culture is ruthlessly "merit-ist". You do well, you get more. You don't, you get tossed out. Now, that, I can handle!

And, BTW, I agree with your statement about the Air Jordans, tricked-out car, etc., too. Ultimately, that mindset doesn't get you anywhere except broke.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 20, 2006 04:25 AM
I agree totally. In Virginia Beach, the US Justice Department came down on the police entrance exam. Because it had some 'math' questions, it was deemed racist. The questions involved were as simple as "If your shift ended at 12:00 and you worked until 2:30 how much overtime did you work?". A sixth grade teacher gave the test to her class and all of them passed the math portion. The test was racist because the US government believes black people cannot do math that is required by the SOL's of every 6th grader. Who's being racist here? If your constantly told, you can't do math, as soon as it starts getting hard, your gonna start believing them. And it doesn't help when your peers are more worried about having the latest "Air Jordans, or tricked-out car" than getting the skills needed to buy them. Not everyone can be a sports hero, or famous rapper. But a lot of young people are fooled in to thinking that is the way to riches with out have to work hard learning skils like math. And certain politicians would have you believe that their party will help you by giving you breaks. Unfortunately getting a job your unqualified for because of some racial goal will only hurt you in the long run.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 20, 2006 07:02 AM
I agree wholeheartedly, and it applies to sex/gender as well as race. And that's why I maintain that, if the GNOME project is going to target "women", then they should also target "Blacks" and "Hispanics" with this effort as well. They consistently get told "you can't do math/science/computers/etc." While I have proven the naysayers wrong, I'm the rarity. I hope that you agree that I shouldn't be a rarity.

Unfortunately, it seems that the GNOME project has no interest in reaching out to anybody but (generally White) women. That's one of the two major problems that I have with this "effort".

Additionally, the same way that it is incumbent upon Black Americans to make better, more productive choices in their lives, like going into computers as I did, it is equally incumbent upon the White women--heck, the Black women too--to make the same effort to join the engineering/hacker community that I did, if they want to join. That's why I'm here and my "bruthas" are still in the 'hood. That means putting in the time/homework and doing what others do to get to know the RMSes, Linuses, Ebens, Theos, etc. out there from whom we all can learn. Women need to make that effort. I don't see too many willing to make that effort, and I believe *that* is the key reason why there aren't that many women in hacking teams. I consider women as welcome as I do any man, but you've got to put the effort forth...just like any man. That's the other problem I have with this latest GNOME "effort".

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Encouraging all kinds of new contributors

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 26, 2006 09:03 PM
There have been discussions about reaching out to Asian, Africian, and other developers. it seems more likely that the problem there is cultural and language barriers.

reaching out to women is a good start though and should help identify and remove some barriers which may be discouraging all kinds of new contributors.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 05:21 AM
Oh, cry me a river. Why does someone taking action to correct a problem bother you so much? Of course it's much easier to deny there is a problem. You think that everyone should be as miserable as you. I don't think that's going to be a very popular solution.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 01:19 PM
I'd rather see $3,000 go to a programmer chosen by merit rather than gender. If a woman wins by merit, so be it. If no women bother to apply, then also so be it. There are zero barriers when interacting with your peers is done online.

Remember the old cartoon, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."? Well, on the Internet, nobody knows or cares that you're a woman (or disabled, or a particular ethnicity, or of a certain religion or sexual orientation) unless you make an issue out of it.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: WarPengi on June 17, 2006 05:55 PM
Bullshit!! I once registered on a site as a 16 year old girl. The first time I posted to the forum I was coddled by these 2 admins. They were sooo helpful and solicitous.


  I had forgotten about my registration and wondered why I got the treatment I did. I wasn't trying to put on an act so they soon figured out that I was no 16 year old girl and the sudden embarrased silence was deafening.

When I realized what had happened I had a good laugh. Don't believe for a moment people can't tell things about you unless you deliberately try to act like someone you are not. Those 2 guys could tell I was not relating to them like a 16 year old girl would and I could tell they were not relating to me as a man in his mid 40's.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Daniel Carrera on June 18, 2006 07:03 AM
> There are zero barriers when interacting with
> your peers is done online.

This is fabulously ignorant. Yes, there are barriers.

> Remember the old cartoon, "On the Internet,
> nobody knows you're a dog."? Well, on the
> Internet, nobody knows or cares that you're a
> woman

Not true. They do know, and a significant portion care, and a significant portion of those respond by hassling you. It need not be something as blatant as calling you stupid, just being dismissive of your suggestions will do; or just being asked on a date every time you pop in to the IRC channel will be a problem.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 19, 2006 03:06 AM
I don't need to "cry you a river". In fact, I hope you get to be as "miserable", as you put it, as am I, because I'm having a great time enjoying my career in technology.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

You're right in that there is a problem. It's just not the one you think. The actual problem is the decision by some (again, mostly White) women to complain about not being simply handed all the knowledge about how to be a hacker. Becoming a hacker takes time and a lot of effort; Linus, RMS, and any other "master hackers" will tell you that.

The proper solution, whether you or anyone else thinks it's "popular" or not, is to bust your butt, as I did, and do what it takes to learn how to engineer/hack well. I've said before that the engineer/hacker culture is a ruthless meritocracy; if you do well, you get more, and if you don't, get outta here till you do your homework, then come back. Simple. A red elephant who can hack well would be readily accepted into the hacker community, as would a little green hermaphrodite from Mars.

Ask any of the "old cats" of American jazz music about this (e. g. Ron Carter, Ellis Marsalis, Dave Brubeck), and they'll tell you the same. "You gotta woodshed, youngster." Note: "woodshed" = jazz cat slang for "practice your butt off".

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 19, 2006 04:25 PM
You're right in that there is a problem. It's just not the one you think. The actual problem is the decision by some (again, mostly White) women to complain about not being simply handed all the >knowledge about how to be a hacker. Becoming a >hacker takes time and a lot of effort; Linus, RMS, and any other "master hackers" will tell you that.


Hmm. Isn't the GNOME initiative designed to do exactly this? To provide women (who are under-represented in the FOSS developer community) the opportunity to learn and practise being "hackers"?

Or were you imagining that these women would simply be randomly selected, spend the GNOME Summer Outreach Programme getting their nails done, buying shoes and then get handed a "master hacker" certificate at the end?

My understanding is that the programme is about getting women to contribute to GNOME -- so I reckon that means they should have skills to do that and there would be other criteria for selection beyond their sex.

I don't understand how a community which fashions itself as a movement can afford to ignore that it's excluding the other half of the human population. I don't understand why such a move from GNOME is met with such objections. Shouldn't you just be glad that resources are being allocated to bring more people in? Or is the problem because the people this one initiative aims to bring in happen to have vaginas?

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 20, 2006 08:38 AM
******QUOTE*******
"I don't understand how a community which fashions itself as a movement can afford to ignore that it's excluding the other half of the human population. I don't understand why such a move from GNOME is met with such objections. Shouldn't you just be glad that resources are being allocated to bring more people in? Or is the problem because the people this one initiative aims to bring in happen to have vaginas?"
******END QUOTE*******

Nope. It's one of consistency. If you're going to do this for--again, mostly White--women, then you should do the same for Black men. Why are you so opposed to the idea of including those who happen to have more melanin in their skin than you might?

But I disagree quite strongly that the Free Software community excludes Black men *or* White women, or anyone else for that matter. The Free Software movement has always--ALWAYS--been about the quality, appropriateness, and most importantly, Freedom of the code. Any White woman--or Black man, like myself--can submit code to, say, OpenBSD or GNOME, and if it's good, it might be considered for inclusion. PERIOD. I don't see why you're not getting that.

White Americans--and especially White women--may discriminate against me at times in general USA society...but I've never, ever had a hacker call me "nigger" or otherwise indicate that "my kind" isn't welcome in the hacker community (apparently the White men who predominate the hacker community are rather enlightened). The same is true for White women or anyone else, if you can code well. That's the key phrase--IF YOU CAN CODE WELL. I don't see why you're not getting that, either.

You claim that male hackers don't want female hackers in the Free Software movement? OK, show us proof of *ACTUAL* anti-female discrimination in the Free Software movement, and no, just saying "oh, there aren't enough women" isn't enough (there aren't enough Blacks either, but both you and GNOME are silent on that, aren't you?). Show us an actual case where a female hacker's code was rejected just because she's female, with no basis in the quality, or lack thereof, of the submitted code. An email from a project leader stating this or something to that effect would be terrific here.

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: WarPengi on June 21, 2006 08:14 AM
"Nope. It's one of consistency. If you're going to do this for--again, mostly White--women, then you should do the same for Black men"

I don't see any "I" in that.

Wow you sure got a thing against white women! I am sure you have your reasons, however the idea that if you are going to empower one group then you have to empower every other minority at the same time is just stupid. You have to take a step before you reach the finish line. You can't stand there and say if I can't take all the steps simultaneous I won't even start this race.

You acknowledged in an earlier post that blacks are discouraged by society in pursuing computer training. Why can't you acknowledge that that is true for women too? If you want to start an initiative for black men then go ahead. Or are you too busy making the good living from your own education that you don't have time? Nothing about this initiative restricts an initiative for black men.

Easy to criticise, takes a lot more to help out. Maybe you should get invoved in empowering some white women and then take that training to help out other black men8-O

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Re:Oh, please....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 22, 2006 08:18 AM
go for it, martyr dood, no one's stopping you. As for the rest of your pointless, self-pitying rant, I sure hope you're single and childless.

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Good job, Hannah and GNOME!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 05:23 AM
I hope the project attracts a lot of qualified applicants. The demand for skilled coders is always going to grow- the more the better!

--
Carla Schroder

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Re:Good job, Hannah and GNOME!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 19, 2006 03:12 AM
I agree, Carla. The more hackers we have--especially Free Software hackers--the better. I just hope that "special treatment for women" doesn't become expected. All hackers should be treated the same--on merit--regardless of their sex, color, religion. or otherwise!

I also hope that this project doesn't reject qualified men. That *would* be discriminatory and therefore unwelcome.

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Re:Good job, Hannah and GNOME!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 22, 2006 08:15 AM
yeah, we have such a shortage of men hackers. Better start an outreach at once. I don't suppose any of the negativity that attacks projects like this has to do with men's fears about being shown up by better-qualified women, and wanting to keep them out because they're afraid.. naaah, that couldn't be it.

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Women developers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 17, 2006 07:48 AM
Perhaps if women are put off by the current social atmosphere in existing projects, one angle would be for some women developers to start and run some projects around programs that scratch some of their own itches?

That is not to say that efforts at working together should be shelved, but why not experiment and see what works out after some time? (If this is to happen, should it be initiated and driven by women?)

Please note, this is one of my standard answers when anyone talks about what should be done. (Now, if those doing things want to talk of better ways to do things, that is good. For those not doing things, ok, fine too, but it would be better to do some things as well. Also, I am not implying that either one or the other situation fits here.)

all the best,

drew
<a href="http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145" title="ourmedia.org">http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145</a ourmedia.org>

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Re:Women developers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 20, 2006 09:28 AM
Exactly. You want to hack? Great! Find a situation that needs some code written, whose subject matter turns you on, and just plain START CODING. That's it. If it's good, you'll be recognized for it on your own merits, in the hacker tradition. That's how Samba, MPlayer, Emacs, and the original SSH got started. Hell, it's how the kernel Linux itself got started!

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Women are just more logical

Posted by: Joseph Cooper on June 17, 2006 11:42 AM
We're talking about a development model that's built on the idea of people working over the internet. Nobody has to know your race, your gender, your ethnicity, your color, your age, your job, your nationality, etc.

They ~might~ be able to tell if you're ESL, but I know lots of foreigners who write perfect English and lacking any accent to go on, most people won't know what to look for to spot your language transfer.

This is 100% an issue of the developer's choice. There are no women in Gnome because apparently, for whatever reason, no women have decided to go code for Gnome. As another poster has mentioned some have jumped on board with KDE. I have no idea why. You can ask them and see if there's a biological basis for women prefering KDE, but if not, what can you say except "God willed it so"?

That said, white men have plenty of "social barriers" in the way of becomming a programmer. I.E. we're dorks. Are dorks glorified? Not really. There's the movie "hackers" but even as a dork I can't watch that movie without thinking "Holy crap this is dorky".

Seriously! We get beat up, taunted, bitched out in high school and never get laid. If that's not a social barrier I don't know what is.

It doesn't even pay that much anymore, that was just a fluke of the 90s. It's a common, middle class profession. Are there ultra rich geeks? Of course. All markets have their company CEOs and technology is no different.

Not to mention that for the same reason that free software works, we have outsourcing. It's not news that programming can be done entirely over the wire. People outsource to India all the time. I'm about to move to Poland with my girlfriend and I'm not giving up my programming job in the process. I'll do it over the intenet. Just a few days ago I joked with my boss about how soon he'll be outsourcing to eastern europe.

It's not even that fun to be a computer person unless you really enjoy it. Everyone's after your ass if their computer breaks. If anything's wrong it's your fault. If you're installing Acrobat on someone's laptop and the hard drive randomly dies, it's your fault.

So - for white American males - we have a profession that is marked with:

a) Major social stigma
b) No special economic benefits
c) Pathetic job security
d) Everyone bitching at you

Take D to the max for open source. In the proprietary world the phone tech supports and maybe salespeople get to take a chunk of the bitching for you. So for open source we have:

e) Even more people bitching at you to do something you're not getting paid for.

Maybe women are just more logical than men about this. Men can be pretty emotional about technology and engineering, I know I am. I have old CPUs that I keep because they have sentimental value. Does that make any sense at all? Does it make any sense at all to be a programmer?

Obviously nobody is getting into this for any reason other than absolutely loving it. I LOVE TO PROGRAM. I honestly wouldn't be happy doing anything else. Raise your hand if you're a programmer and you love to program!

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Re:Women are just more logical

Posted by: Daniel Carrera on June 18, 2006 07:19 AM
> Nobody has to know your race, your gender,

People can figure out your gender by your name. Your name is on your email and in open source it is standard practise for people to make their name public.

> This is 100% an issue of the developer's choice.

This is (1) ignorant (2) wrong and (3) head in the sand. I realize that it's easier to believe that there is no problem than to try to solve it, but that's not a constructive attitude.

> for whatever reason, no women have decided to
> go code for Gnome.

So you think it's just random chance that FOSS is 99% male, that it's entirely accidental? A deeper understanding of mathematics would show you that this is extremely unlikely.

> I have no idea why. You can ask them

I did ask them. You know what they said? They said that there are barriers and that a project like this one would be very helpful.

> and see if there's a biological basis for women
> prefering KDE

Assuming that KDE has more women (not a claim I can verify) might it be because KDE has a program to support them and make it less intimidating? I guess that you'd rather believe that having an extra X chromosome makes you prefer KDE.

> what can you say except "God willed it so"?

This is very stupid. I can say lots of things. Instead of blaming God I'd try to find out what barriers might be limiting female contributors and do something about them.

> Men can be pretty emotionl about technology and
> engineering, I know I am.

Your post certainly shows a logic deficiency.

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What about gays???

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 18, 2006 07:28 PM
The gay minority seems to be totally ommited here!!!

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when I wrote RTFM

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 19, 2006 05:33 AM
I meant, "Respectfully Thankful for Female Munificence"

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Telling them to RTFM *is* treating them as equals!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on June 20, 2006 09:54 AM
'In addition, developers should avoid telling women "RTFM" and instead "give helpful and constructive advice," as well as treat women "as equal participants in the free software community."' -- Hanna Wallach

Bullcrap. Men get told to RTFM all the time when they ask questions that are already answered in the "M", and rightfully so. If you can't bother to RTFM, then you *should* be doing something else other than hacking.

And by the way, Wallach says to not tell *women* to RTFM, but doesn't say a damned thing about not telling *men* to RTFM? She's like just about every other feminist I've met--she wants special treatment, not equal treatment.

<a href="http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#answers" title="catb.org">http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#an<nobr>s<wbr></nobr> wers</a catb.org>

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RTFM is rude

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 26, 2006 09:11 PM
Telling anyone to read the fucking manual is rude and unhelpful. This doesn't encourage any new contributors and has nothing to do with gender.

Providing a link to the relevant section of the manual and clearly explaining which manual is fairly helpful. It also proves the answer is actually in the manual (arrogant people who say RTFM often assume incorrectly) and easy to find, because if it is too difficult for an expert to find the right answer and link to it then it may not be all that easy for a beginner to find it either.

Asking smart questions always helps though. People often joke that if you ask "linux cant do that" instead of askign nicely "how do I do this" you will have people falling over themselves to prove how great linux is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P

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