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The future of the Linux Terminal Server Project
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CommentsLTSP has been around since 1999, when Jim McQuillan and Ron Colcernian decided to solve a customer need at a home health care supply company. LTSP allows you to run Linux on a server, and then use thin clients (almost any computer will do) to connect to the server and receive a full-blown Linux desktop. Since then, millions of Linux desktops have been deployed around the world using LTSP.
The Ubuntu project recognized the value of thin clients, and sought to integrate LTSP into the distribution. By working together with LTSP upstream, Ubuntu CTO Matt Zimmerman created an implementation to ship with Ubuntu 5.10. The Ubuntu-derived Edubuntu offered users an entire deployment right out of the box, but Ubuntu's implementation had some significant changes, enough to consider the work a fork of the codebase.
LTSP project leader McQuillan, and LTSP hacker Scott Balneaves, recognized the need for a unified codebase and chose to dump the old way of doing things, and come up with one codebase for all LTSP variants. This would enable distributions to integrate the software directly so that users could just flip a switch, and deploy.
"Thin clients should be a service that can be enabled by an administrator. Just it turn on and it will work, just like with Apache, or Samba, or CUPS." says McQuillan.
It was easy for McQuillan to find volunteers. Oliver Grawert from Edubuntu volunteered to hack, and was soon joined by Warren Togami and Eric Harrison from the Fedora Project. Vagrant Cascadian, who refuses to disclose his real name, attended on behalf of Debian, which brought in three of the most popular distributions. LTSP hackers Gideon Romm and Scott Balneaves also joined in.
After five days of hacking, the team had mapped out the future of thin clients on Linux and gotten a good deal of the infrastructure in place, including a common, modular codebase that will be easier for distributions to integrate and use.
"We've really lowered the barrier to entry to enable people to deploy Linux desktops on a massive scale, and from a developer standpoint having a common codebase makes it easy for new developers to just jump right in," says Balneaves.
In addition to making it easier to include LTSP in Linux distribution, a number of new LTSP features are in the works as well. One long-awaited feature is local application support. This will allow some applications to run on the thin client, rather than the server. This is useful for multimedia applications, which don't run well over a network. Administrators will be able to decide which packages will run locally, and which run on the server.
Administrative tools are also a high priority, so the project is developing a diagnostic program that will allow users to collect information about their deployment that they can submit to developers when there's a problem. The project also plans to add user management, so administrators can manage sessions from a central location.
The latest stable release of LTSP, version 4.2, introduced local device support, which allows LTSP users on thin clients to use things like USB flash drives, printers, and other devices. Work is now being done to make things like CD burning work on thin clients as well.
The upstream version will be called LTSP 5.0. The team expects a usable implementation of LTSP with these features in Fedora, Ubuntu, and Debian for spring 2007.
McQuillan says he also wants LTSP to be included in other distributions. "We're really looking forward to being joined by other distributions, like Novell and Mandriva, next year." And what will users notice? McQuillan says that "if we do things right, the user won't notice anything at all, and that's a good thing."
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on The future of the Linux Terminal Server ProjectNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
Been using LTSP and K12LTSP for years now
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 23, 2006 05:14 AMI've used old Power Mac, Pentium-166, Dell Optiplex GX1's, and UltraSPARC (Sun Ultra 5) computers as thin clients, all simultaneously, all running off the same LTSP server (yes, you can do that!). One of them was a NuBus Power Mac 5260, from way, way back; even with Mac OS 7.6.1, it was so slow that I would've assigned this box only to someone I really, really didn't like. Put it in LTSP mode, though, and even at 640x480x256, it became useable again. BTW, Sun Ultra 5's make quite good LTSP clients if you happen to have some of those. The CompSci kids, even though they know very well what's really happening in the background, nonetheless think they're so 1337 for sitting at "the Sun boxes."<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
Thank you, Jim McQuillan, for leading this project! You have saved three of my schools a HELL of a lot of money and have made some of my teachers' lives a LOT easier.
Re:Been using LTSP and K12LTSP for years now
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 23, 2006 06:47 AMThink of it as payback to the community by sharing the knowledge you've gained.
I'd read it.
Also, AFAIK, Sun has opened up the Sun Ray Server code. Does this mean it will be relatively easy now to figure out how a Sun Ray client works and allow a server other than SRSS to talk to it?
BTW, we currently use a mix of LTSP clients as well us Sun Ray terminals at work running off the same FC4 server.
-Larry
Glad to see Ubuntu and LTSP working togeather!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 23, 2006 11:31 PMIt seemed that Ubuntu/Edubuntu, for a while, was looking to reinvent their OWN LTSP WHEEL or their own forked version of LTSP without actually following the reasons why LTSP was doing what it is doing. Hard headed Debian folks strike again.
Edubuntu - as per the new Edgy Knot 3 release... still does not work as well as K12LTSP during the install to provide the admin/installer any idea as to the proper way to do a 2 NIC install. And there is no install option to configure (or not) a firewall at the server with a 2 NIC install either. K12LTSP does this 2 NIC install with an option to configure a firewall and to set up the use of SELinus during the install, in a very easy to do way! It is too bad that Edubuntu does not! Because of this I have put all efforts back to K12LTSP and have left Edubuntu in order to wait for them to "WAKE UP" and do what K12LTSP is doing! IF they don't wake up then we just will not use Edubuntu as the install is too "VAGUE" for the newbie or novice user to understand... If I can't use the install without throwing up (and I have been using k12LTSP for over 4 years), the I just don't see where a user that is new to LTSP is going to like it, in fact I can see them getting as frustrated as I have been with Edubuntu install, to just run away and pray that they can make it so that "other than experienced Edubuntu developers" can see it as being a friendly install.
Maybe the meeting worked as then the Edubuntu side could maybe be side by side and talk about things with Eric Harrison, and get some tips as to what they have been through at K12LTSP already, and hopefully Edubuntu will copy some of the advancements and innovations that K12LTSP has already been using (without complaints for the body of users) for a number of years.
I see no improvements in the installer yet for Edgy Knot 3 that I installed the other day?
In fact, Edubuntu/they still don't have a default lts.conf file in the distro that is installed when you do your install at all - meaing that the user has to build their own. K12LTSP has a very nicely built lts.conf file that is installed during the K12LTSP install (this is a good thing). This lack of an lts.conf file where they require the Edubuntu user/installer to build their own first, is an example of where Edubuntu is really lacking in an understanding of what a "finished" easy to use install should be like... for schools to use this stuff... it has got to be easy to do (so far, Edubuntu is not easy to install with a 2 NIC install, is not easy to understand how to implement a 2 NIC install firewall on a stand alone LTSP server, and/or is not friendly yet with older PCs that need Etherboot clients)!
Will the final version of Edubuntu Edgy address these concerns? By the looks of Edubuntu Edgy Knot3, it does not look like it. So - we will stay with K12LTSP until it does "wise up" and do it right, like K12LTSP does, from the start!
Have you submitted bugs for these issues?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 24, 2006 05:57 AMThe best way of providing feedback is to use the mechanism that is specifically provided for this purpose. In the case of *buntu, this is launchpad.net. Please submit all issues using this.
Re:Have you submitted - these ain't bugs!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 24, 2006 11:30 PMThese ain't bugs we are talking about. They are design flaws, make by folks at Ubuntu/Edubuntu that are trying to go their own way (and starting from scratch to do so). They do have some points that are valid as to the reasons to go the way they are. And the forking certainly got the attention of LTSP folks and those folks agree with part of the direction that Ubuntu/Edubuntu were taking.
So - as a reasult, they are working togeather better as both realize that both camps can do more togeather vs doing it apart.
Funny thing is that on the K12lTSP.org site in the archives somewhere is an email from a fellow in South Africa (Ubuntu's home turf) where he exclaimed that since K12LTSP 5.0 is out... that they were starting on a road show to install, or upgrade, some 200 locations with K12LTSP 5.0 (notice he did not write they were installing, or upgrading these locations to Edubuntu...)! So - most likely these folks also saw Ubuntu/Edubuntu as lacking.
My guess is that Ubuntu/Edubuntu folks know this by now. Edubuntu has some design problems, is not finished to the point that even the developers would like, etc... Hey - LTSP on all the platforms the the *buntu family have a vast future... but, everyone in the LTSP world needs to be on the same page, and helping each other out to get to a COMMON end point (that is supportable, and compatible with each and every other LTSP offering)!
I give it until next spring when we will start to see a Ubuntu/Edubuntu LTSP release that is LTSP ready, usable, and one would hope with all the needed install parts included so that it is like the K12LTSP install. I like Ubuntu... it is just that LTSP Ubuntu/Edubuntu ain't done yet.
This is totally factually incorrect.
The first version of Ubuntu's LTSP was implemented from our Muekow specification, which you can find on our wiki (wiki.ltsp.org), and, in fact, LTSP was invited by Ubuntu to come down to Australia for the initial specification of what needed to be done.
I fail to see how Ubuntu can be accused of "going their own way", when they were working from our specs, and we were there HELPING them with the first, and subsequent versions.
Implementing LTSP in a distro agnostic way is a difficult task. We've been very fortunate to have the support of Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and K12LTSP in doing this. The hackfest was completely non-partisan, and EVERYONE focused on making things good for ALL users of LTSP.
Please don't try to create an impression of divisiveness when there wasn't one.
Scott Balneaves
sbalneav@ltsp.org
Re:Have you submitted - these ain't bugs!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 26, 2006 11:00 PMI agree with out that there really was no FORK, so - it is only a metaphor in this sense, that resulted in the mistake of the use of the term FORK. And, in that sense the comment followed the article's use of this word Instead it might be looked at an restated as this: The Ubuntu/Edubuntu LTSP 6.06 release was without support for low ram clients, low CPU speed clients, and without usable support for etherboot (and that did mean a fork in a sense as then all the etherboot devices and NIC cards out there already using LTPS would not work with the Edubuntu 6.06 LTSP stuff, and when you followed their instructions to do so, the boot up time for the fix that added etherboot, per actual testing with users, led to volumes of complaints - it was not pure LTSP because it was lacking, period).
It was simply not done yet.
By next spring... things will be better, right now folks that want a turn key LTSP product have options (one option is K12LTSP.org).
> without support for low ram clients, low CPU
> speed clients, and without usable support for
> etherboot (and that did mean a fork in a sense
> as then all the etherboot devices and NIC cards
> out there already using LTPS would not work
> with the Edubuntu 6.06 LTSP stuff, and when you
> followed their instructions to do so, the boot
> up time for the fix that added etherboot, per
> actual testing with users, led to volumes of
> complaints - it was not pure LTSP because it
> was lacking, period)
I'm really not sure what part of "First implementation of a brand new way of doing things" you're not understanding. It was not a fork, it was a first cut. The first LTSP didn't have local devices as it does now, didn't have rdesktop as it does now, etc. Does that mean that the later versions are a fork? No, they're simply a progression.
The latest version of LTSP Muekow that Oliver Grawert's been working on will be out in Edgy Eft, and now supports etherboot, lower memory clients, NBS swap, XDMCP and LDM logins, localdevices, etc etc. Printing and Rdesktop isn't quite there yet, but will be for edgy+1.
vagrantc, who's been working in the Debian version, will likely have these in the Etch release sooner, as Debian's release cycle isn't closed yet.
As well, Warren Togami, and Eric Harrison will be spearheading the Fedora release.
Why do you continue to to insist on shouting "FORK" at the top of your lungs? All of these people are working together off of one spec to get the job done. All you seem to be doing to the process is trying to make it seem more divisive?
Am I missing something here? (I'd like to think not, as I'm one of the people involved).
Scott Balneaves
sbalneav@ltsp.org
The article said "fork" -i just said it ain't done
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 03, 2006 09:42 AMI know you guys have been getting all tied up and with the Knots you need to tie in order to getit done (finally)!
I tried Edgy Knot3 and tried etherboot, but it did not work? K12LTSP is the benchmark, and Edubuntu is not there (hey over at Ubuntu they are talking about dropping FireFox as the default browser on the CD version... no that is a non-standard move if I ever saw one)! The *buntu folks are a different kind of breed, I will say that much for them! They are not thinking of the end user at all it seems (dropping FireFox, weird mystery Edubuntu installer that any Windows admin would find lacking whem compared to K12LTSP, etc)! Funny thing is that the folks at Freespire are thinking of the end user! Does LTSP work on FreeSpire too?
Edgy+1 with Printing, etc...(well my bet is that to be as good as K12LTSP.org, Edubuntu will not do that until next spring, or later, as there seems to be nothing with the installer in Knot3 that has changed from 6.06)!
Ubuntu/Edubuntu LTSP will not be done till spring!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 24, 2006 11:44 PMSo - as a reasult, they are working togeather better as both realize that both camps can do more togeather vs doing it apart.
Funny thing is that on the K12lTSP.org site in the archives somewhere is an email from a fellow in South Africa (Ubuntu's home turf) where he exclaimed that since K12LTSP 5.0 is out... that they were starting on a road show to install, or upgrade, some 200 locations with K12LTSP 5.0 (notice he did not write they were installing, or upgrading these locations to Edubuntu...)! So - most likely these folks also saw Ubuntu/Edubuntu as lacking.
My guess is that Ubuntu/Edubuntu folks know this by now. Edubuntu has some design problems, is not finished to the point that even the developers would like, etc... Hey - LTSP on all the platforms the the *buntu family have a vast future... but, everyone in the LTSP world needs to be on the same page, and helping each other out to get to a COMMON end point (that is supportable, and compatible with each and every other LTSP offering)!
I give it until next spring when we will start to see a Ubuntu/Edubuntu LTSP release that is LTSP ready, usable, and one would hope with all the needed install parts included so that it is like the K12LTSP install. The reason why I doubt, is because of when this meeting happened in August, well into the Edgy Release time frame that is when everything goes into feature Freeze mode, meaning that nothing new from an August work sesstion most likely will NOT make it into the Edgy 6.10 Release! So, most likely LTSP Ubuntu/Edubuntu will maybe happen finally by the release that is slated for next spring (about the time we see Vista)!
I like Ubuntu... it is just that LTSP Ubuntu/Edubuntu ain't done yet. AND if you email them, they will admit to that fact.
I also like SuSE over Ubuntu as SuSE does a better job with Security updates vs Ubuntu that is stil dedicating huge amounts of efforts toward pushing out new features (vs maintaining what they got out there now) and so, I sure would wish that Novell would wake up and offer help to climb onto the LTSP bandwagon.
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