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Stallman, Torvalds, and Novell comment on GPLv3

By Bruce Byfield on March 29, 2007 (8:00:00 AM)

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Comments about the third draft of the GNU General Public License (GPLv3), which was released yesterday, are still coming in. So far, we've spoken with Free Software Foundation founder Richard M. Stallman, Linux creator Linus Torvalds, and Bruce Lowry, director of global public relations for Novell. Their reactions offer some new perspectives and at least one possible sign of movement toward consensus. Together, they also highlight the issues that are likely to dominate discussion of the draft in the days to come.

Richard Stallman

Richard Stallman has not been involved in the consultation process for GPLv3. Instead, he has left consultation to the Software Freedom Law Center and focused on the issues that have been raised. The process, which has lasted nearly two years for him, has been "quite a lot of work," he says. However, he says, "I don't see how it could have been avoided. It's raised quite a lot of issues that hadn't been anticipated."

To Stallman, GPLv3 is part of a continuous evolution of the license to prevent technology and legal trends from undermining the principles of free software. "In GPLv1, I knew of two ways that people could try to make free software effectively proprietary," he says. "One was by adding additional license terms, and the other was by not releasing the source. So GPLv1 said you couldn't do either. Then, in 1990, I found out about another: that patent holders could threaten developers and make them impose restrictive conditions on subsequent users. So GPLv2 added Section 7, which says that, no matter what other conditions are imposed on you, you can either distribute with full GPL freedoms or not at all. Now we've found out about two other ways to try to make free software effectively proprietary: one of them is TiVoization, and the other is the Novell-Microsoft deal, so we're trying to block them both. And any time we find some new threat to a user's freedoms, we will try to block it."

Stallman says that the final wording that covers the Novell-Microsoft deal arrived less than five days before the release of the third draft. The trick, he says, was to write the language in Section 11 so that it didn't exclude such agreements as cross-licenses between companies that include a mutual patent covenant or settlements with what he calls "patent trolls" -- companies that acquire patents and earn income through litigation or the threat of it.

Reluctantly, he agreed to include a final sentence that would grandfather the Novell-Microsoft agreement, but he says, "I hope it won't be necessary." Whether that sentence remains, he says, depends on the community feedback received on the draft.

After GPLv3 is released, Stallman anticipates a revision of the GNU Free Documentation License and the Affero GPL, a license designed for software offered as a Web service. Despite the efforts to internationalize the language of GPLv3, he does not expect any official translations of the license into other languages. "It would be nice to have official versions," he says, "but it's also very risky. I am still reluctant to take that risk."

Talking about the division between open source and free software viewpoints that the GPLv3 process has often emphasized, Stallman says that both are part of the free software community. However, referring to the open source advocates, he says, "Not everyone values freedom. When people are free to choose their own views, they're not all going to agree." At the same time, Stallman says he views a consensus on the adoption of GPLv3 as essential, because "GPLv3 protects users from new threats to their freedom. If GPLv3 is not widely adopted, or if there are many programs that stay with GPLv2, then those programs' users will be vulnerable to new kinds of attack. For instance, if Linus [Torvalds] doesn't move to GPLv3, then users of the Linux kernel will be vulnerable to TiVoization. That's a substantial problem.

"When the purpose of a program is to restrict you, making it more powerful and reliable at restricting you makes it worse. It's a mistake, therefore, to say that powerful, reliable software is the goal," as the open source viewpoint maintains. By contrast, "the goal of the free software movement is to put you in control of the software you use. Then, if you want to make it more powerful, you can work at making it more powerful."

Still, Stallman retains some hope. He notes, for example, that open source advocates do not all share the same viewpoint. He points to Sun Microsystems as an example of a company that is dominated by the open source position and that is considering moving to GPLv3 for reasons of its own.

Linus Torvalds

When the second draft of GPLv3 was released, Linus Torvalds was one of its most outspoken critics. Although he stresses that he is giving only a preliminary opinion on GPLv3, and may change his mind as he looks at it more closely, his first response to the third draft is to give it qualified approval.

"Is it better?" Torvalds asks rhetorically. "Hell yeah. But it's been limited in ways that at least make it much saner. I'll have to think about it. The language seems cleaner and better than GPLv2 in many places, and many of my 'that is obviously totally idiotic crap' areas have either been improved or seem to have been removed entirely."

Torvalds approves of the rewriting and clarification of additional terms in section 7, suggesting that the third draft makes dual licensing easier in special cases. Also, he says, "the total lack of any new additional restrictions is a huge relief and makes the license much more useful."

"I'm not sure that the Novell agreements [with Microsoft] really merited that much attention," Torvalds says, referring to section 11 of the draft. However, he says, "I do think that this area (unlike all the DRM hysteria) was potentially a much better reason for GPLv3 in the first place."

That "DRM hysteria" is covered by the anti-TiVoization language in Section 6. Torvalds says of the new language in this section of the current draft, which replaces a blanket ban on restrictive technologies and spyware with an obligation to include the source code for it, "It still purports to control not just software, but the hardware or environment that the software is installed on. I find that odious, but the language is a lot better, and they [the FSF] seem to have realized that their old drafts were insane (i.e., now they make it clear that if something has been designed to not be upgraded, there's no point it trying to require 'installation information' and keys). Limiting things to 'user devices' also gets rid of a whole slew of idiotic problems with the old GPLv3 drafts.

"In this new form I think the GPLv3 is at least a viable alternative to the GPLv2. I'll have to read it through a few more times and let things sink in, but my gut feeling from reading it through once is that I at least no longer have a feeling of 'I'd never have selected this license if I were to have started a new project.'"

Novell

Speaking on behalf of Novell, Bruce Lowry declined a detailed reaction to the draft, apparently reserving official comments for the final draft. However, he noted briefly that "Nothing in this new draft of GPLv3 inhibits Novell's ability to include GPLv3 technologies in SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, and other open source offerings, now and in the future."

Lowry says, "We are firmly committed to continuing the partnership with Microsoft and, as we always have, fully complying with the terms of the licenses for the software that we ship, including software licensed under GPLv3. If the final version of the GPLv3 does potentially impact the agreement we have with Microsoft, we'll address that with Microsoft."

Lowry describes Novell as "a strong supporter of free software and open source" and as "significant contributors to a range of free software and open source projects."

A foretaste of coming months

Stallman, Torvalds, and Novell are waiting on events and the final version of the license before fully committing themselves. However, their comments highlight the issues that will shape discussions in the next three months as GPLv3 moves toward its final version. Despite obvious attempts on all sides to avoid conflict, and despite some signs of movement, consensus is still some ways away, but general acceptance of GPLv3 now seems more likely than it did six months ago.

Bruce Byfield is a computer journalist who writes regularly for NewsForge, Linux.com, and IT Manager's Journal.

Bruce Byfield is a computer journalist who writes regularly for Linux.com.

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on Stallman, Torvalds, and Novell comment on GPLv3

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LOL - Lawyers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2007 09:12 PM
So, the lawyers take two years to produce a document that, in the end seems to be a regurgitation of a 17 year old document. But, with "new and improved language"!

That's money well spent. Have you donated to the FSF recently? LOL!

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Re:LOL - Lawyers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 01:10 AM
In essence, yes, GPLv3 tries to do the same things as GPLv1 but in a new environment. I also dislike (hate would be a better word) legalese and bureaucracy, but it's needed, so I would say that the money was well spent indeed.

Btw, isn't this what legislatures around the world do most of the time? Improving the laws to better represent ethical values and adapting them to new circumstances, technologies etc.

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Are You Stoned? Give Me Some!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 03:39 AM
Btw, isn't this what legislatures around the world do most of the time? Improving the laws to better represent ethical values and adapting them to new circumstances, technologies etc.

Are you completely stoned out of your mind?!?!? I hate to sound cynical but, there is nowhere that I can think of where laws are improved "to better represent ethical values and adapting them to new circumstances, technologies etc." That's beyond a utopian idea. It suggests dementia or just being stoned out of your gourd.

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Lawyers not paid by FSF donations

Posted by: Administrator on March 29, 2007 09:39 PM


Most of the lawyers involved were members of the committees who gave their time freely, and the other lawyers were mostly from SFLC, which are paid by SFLC.




I don't know of any FSF money spent on lawyers for this. I'm not saying none was. I don't have access to that data, but I'm saying that public sources confirm that the vast majority of lawyer time was pro bono, and no sources imply that lawyer time was at FSF's expense, so there's nothing to support or event suggest support for your troll claim.




And GPLv3 is better in <a href="http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/#intro" title="fsfeurope.org">plenty of ways</a fsfeurope.org>.

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This is good news

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2007 11:00 PM

It's very good news that a consensus is developing around GPLv3. We need this. Without it, Microsoft will succeed in killing Free Software.

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Re:This is good news

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2007 11:59 PM
nah they wont kill it... They will just make themselves look bad doing it. More of an inconvenience to the FOSS crowd.

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Microsoft can't succeed in killing free software..

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 12:59 AM
...because free software is like bastard children of a conquering army. They *will* happen, no matter what anti-fraternization rules are enacted.

Microsoft crushed their enemies, saw them driven before them, and heard the lamentation of their women. It was what is best in life. Then they harvested the spoils, and moved on to greener battles. Behind them, though, children grew strong in the burnt and rocky landscape that Microsoft left behind. They banded together, not out of desire for comeraderie, but out of necessity. They became nomads, calling no company or hardware platform their home, because, if they did, and prospered, the ravening hordes *would* return.

Now the band of nomads is strong, and resentful. The conquerors fought their last great battle years ago, against a force some thought irresistable, called the Feds. They won, and since then have grown fat and complacent. Their scalp locks are touched with gray, and their hands are no longer sure and quick with their weapons. The nomads are discovering that they don't even need to re-conquer. When they ride over the horizon, Microsofts subjects defect, and ride under the Open banner. The orphans of war need do nothing, except watch as the lion grows old and dull of tooth, and wait for squabbles within to tear Microsoft apart.

Open tribes, fear no conquering army; only you can stop your own ascension. Greed, complacency, envy and desire to dominate are your enemies, not Microsoft.

Geek Unorthodox

PS Apologies to Conan the Cimmerian

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No you do not

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 02, 2007 06:05 PM
BSD licenses are there already. They are more polished, flawless, and less RESTRICTIVE. BSD license means more freedom for everyone.

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Re:This is good news

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 26, 2007 03:14 AM
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

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No "grandfather clause" for Novell!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 12:43 AM
Why should Novell, who caused this whole issue with their agreement with Microsoft, be rewarded for this?? It's wrong, and the FSF seems to be chickening out and backpedaling at this point.

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Re:No "grandfather clause" for Novell!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 12:51 AM
because you will scare away every corporation involved in LInux.
What you want is this. You park a car on a corner with no hydrant. The next day they put a hydrant in and send you a ticket for the previous day. Doesnt work that way.

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Re:No "grandfather clause" for Novell!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 01:55 AM
Not quite. You're misunderstanding how software licenses work. The FSF holds copyrights on the GNU operating system. What this means is when the FSF releases versions of GNU programs under GPLv3, Novell (and companies who make deals like Novell did) will have to maintain the GPLv2 versions of these programs in order to keep a competitive edge, because they won't be eligible to use the GPLv3 versions. Novell aren't prepared to make this sort of commitment. They just simply don't have the resources.

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Re:No "grandfather clause" for Novell!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 01, 2007 09:49 PM
If FSF did that, that would send the message to all corporations in the world. Nobody would want to invest in Linux any more.

Even FSF have corporate donors....money matters, as always.

DG

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Re:No "grandfather clause" for Novell!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 02, 2007 08:49 PM
If things were as clear cut as you say, it wouldn't be up for debate. I don't see too many people crying to give Novell a break. Novell has the current GPL2 stuff as always and can try and convince everyone to support the old GPL2 codebase instead of moving to GPL3.

The FSF has its preferrences, but they do want heavy adoption of the GPL3. We will have to wait and see what the market thinks as a whole.

A lot of groups actually like a powerful GPL3 because it gives an edge to the copyright holder. And many people aren't enamored with patents which is the main problem with the Novell deal: they tried to get an up on everyone in the community by leaning on the Monopolist. A lot of smaller corporations, independent developers, and end users are not too happy.

I think a compromise might be to give Novell and any others that think they have questionable deals that come forward now a break for a number of years (eg, 3 or 5). The only problem is who decides what is a boundary case and what is simply someone trying to get a free pass to violate the GPL for several years. We have to remember that these exceptions are giving these companies an advantage over everyone else. Why should Novell be allowed to violate a possible boundary case, but I can't? We are talking about the same source code and copyrights.

I don't mind too much people just putting things in the public domain, but damn some people are so greedy. They take from others' generosity and then try to enforce their restrictions on everyone else. What some will do to restrict everyone else for a buck. Rather than work on the better mousetrap, they spend their time trying to prevent others from building and using that better mousetrap. Microsoft is just sickening to me, and I don't have much sympathy for a Novell trying to create and share a duopoly with them. Novell is using the generosity of the community and then taking advantage of restrictions to keep as many players out of the game as possible.

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No need.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 06:18 AM
As projects change licenses Novell will have to accept new license at current day and alter to suit the new license if they want to submit.

If a large number of projects take it on Novell and Microsoft will be effected. People forget that Microsoft also ships GPL works. The talk between Novell and Microsoft might get very interesting to say the least. If Novell is fully open source they might not have any need to license Microsoft patents for any reason. Microsoft on the other hand will still need Novell patents on there closed source. So it might be come a one way payment.

GPLv3 most likely has teeth in Novell favor. So I don't see Novell fighting over it.

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Re:No need.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 09:25 PM
I agree.. It should be interesting to watch MS complain about it though<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)

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Racketeering

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 30, 2007 06:10 AM
Microsoft is racketeering?

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The language of draft 3 is still very vague

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on March 31, 2007 12:25 AM
This draft of GPL 3 is still more confusing than GPL 2. Vague and legally dangerous language is used in important places - like the definition of "Corresponding Source".There we see the term by intimate data communication . The rest of the definition looks OK but all of a sudden we see "intimacy" involved. In today's wired environment programs communicate with other programs all the time in many ways, but "intimate" is not one of them (Nor is "complex" - how it was in the previous draft). Why are such unclear terms introduced in the license is beyond me. This license should be very clear - both for programmers and lawyers. I would like to ask FSF to work a bit more on it and to address Linus' concerns as well as the need for an understandable license without legal mines.


I will submit a comment to the FSF and hope for their understanding.
A link to the license:
<a href="http://gplv3.fsf.org/gpl-draft-2007-03-28.html" title="fsf.org">
gplv3 draft3 </a fsf.org>

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Re:The language of draft 3 is still very vague

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 05, 2007 04:38 AM
That's an attempt to put language to the concept of binary linkage -- the idea is that (as per GPL history) if you link against a non-System library that is covered by the GPL (the classic example being libreadline), you are bound by that library's license, as your program "specifically was designed to require that library".

The problem with defining the term is a technological one -- when doing static linking, it's clear that libreadline is now part of your application, and is distributed with it. But when you're using a dynamic loader, it's not "part" of the application -- however, the FSF feels that it should be treated as if it *is* being distributed with your application, and the consequences that that entails.

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Software and hardware are closely linked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 02, 2007 08:58 PM
>> [Linux] "It still purports to control not just software, but the hardware or environment that the software is installed on...."

The hardware environment is related to software very closely. Hardware provides a loophole to violate GPL software as anything that can be done in software can be done in hardware and vice-versa. The GPL's original intentions implicitly assumed the hardware context was constant (like a general purpose PC); otherwise, any modifications to code can just be done in hardware and not shared.

I really like the GPL3draft2 language except that it may have been a little too ambiguous (potentially too far reaching).

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Re:Software and hardware are closely linked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 02, 2007 08:59 PM
Darn.. typo:
"[Linus]" not "[Linux]"

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