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Debian redefines itself with new release

By Bruce Byfield on April 13, 2007 (8:00:00 AM)

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For much of its history, Debian has been the major noncommercial, philosophically free distribution. Now, as Debian developers and users have deserted the distro for Ubuntu, does Debian have a purpose any more? Debian 4.0, which was released this week, represents a collective effort to answer that question. The philosophy behind the release is best summarized on the home page for the Debian on the Desktop subproject, which states, "We will do everything we can to make things very easy for the novice, while allowing the expert to tweak things."

In other words, instead of trying to compete directly with distros like Ubuntu for ease of use, Debian is experimenting with a different approach. While growing aware of the need to work with new users, it is also preserving some of the traditional do-it-yourself approach of free software by giving users the chance to learn more about their operating system should they choose. This philosophy shows in every aspect of Debian 4.0, from its install program to its desktop, software installation, security, and software management.

The attempt to strike a balance between different categories of users is most obvious in the installation program. The netinstall version that I used sets up a GNOME desktop, but CD images for KDE and Xfce are also available. Similarly, although the installer continues to default to the highly serviceable text mode that Debian has used for several years now, you can use the command installgui to use a graphical version of the program that runs directly from the framebuffer without the X Window System, or choose a text-based or graphical expert mode. The GUIs even give a nod to reviewers by including a screenshot button in most windows whose output awaits you in /var/log when you log on the newly installed system.

None of the versions of the installer are as simple as Ubuntu's, but, in compensation, anyone who uses one can hardly help but come away with a stronger understanding of their system. Earlier versions of the Debian installer have asked questions that inexperienced users would find puzzling, such as the domain name of their workstations. The current version of the installer still asks the question, but with clear and concise help that explains what a domain name is, and adds, "If you are setting up a home network, you can make something up, but make sure you use the same domain name on all your computers."

An especially strong example of how the installer tries to appeal simultaneously to different kinds of users is the partitioning section. Users can choose not only to manually partition, or to be guided through the process, but also whether to use an unencrypted or encrypted logical volume manager. Users are also given a choice of several partitioning schemes, ranging from a single partition to separate partitions for /, /home, /usr, /var, and /tmp. If they choose, they can then change the size and filesystem for each partition. Although more discussion of the possible choices would aid novices even more, on the whole the partitioning section does a careful job of providing simple defaults while giving users the option of greater complexity.

The expert mode gives even more options, allowing users to specify an ISO-8859, legacy, or UTF-8 locale; whether to load additional installer components such as dialup Internet; the kernel to use; and whether to set up the package repositories to allow the installation of non-free software. While novices might lose themselves in the maze of choices, many intermediate users would find the expert mode an education in itself, especially if a little more help were added.

Desktop automation and defaults

While previous Debian releases did not exactly neglect the desktop, they often did little to customize it or to improve the user experience. Debian 4.0, while no match for Ubuntu's polish, reverses this tradition with a unifying debian-moreblue default theme and a balanced selection of settings.

Some of these settings are not so much Debian's doing as a trickle-down from GNOME, such as the selection of menu items and the dialog window for entering the root password when making system-wide changes, but Debian adds its own touches. The main menu, for example, includes the classic Debian menus for those who want more comprehensive entries, as well as the Alacarte Menu editor for those who want to customize their menus.

Other changes include the installation of MPlayer, which allows the playing of videos in Mozilla-based browsers -- although Debian 4.0 leaves out the Win32 codecs that would allow users to play several standard video formats. One of the most obvious changes is that, unlike earlier major releases, Debian 4.0 now includes GNOME help -- a direct result of the Debian project's vote last year that documents issued under the GNU Free Documentation License that contain no invariant sections are free and can therefore be included in the distribution.

The Debian desktop could still benefit from more attention to the user experience. Why, for example, does the top panel include a launcher for Evolution but no other standard programs? But the new release is a step in a right direction, even if more steps are still needed.

Software selection

As in recent Debian sub-releases, Debian 4.0 tends to a minimalist approach to software. The default package selections in the installer are for system utilities and a desktop environment -- a total of 656 packages, about a third of the amount found in some modern distributions. The result is a lean system that users can boot with a sense of exactly what is on the system, at the expense of needing to be prepared to spend some time after installation adding favorite programs, such as X-Chat. Even Mono, which is increasingly a standard dependency of GNOME panel applets, is not installed by default, although those who have suffered through recent efforts to add it in Debian will be relieved to find that the dependencies are finally correct in the package repositories.

Debian's official releases are not intended to be up-to date distributions. They are housed in the stable package repositories, and meant to be more reliable than current. Debian 4.0 continues this tradition, including software releases that are slightly behind the leading wave, and, with any luck, more reliable. Instead of using the latest 2.6.20.6 kernel, Debian 4.0 defaults to a 2.6.18 kernel, or a 2.6.18-4 kernel for the daring who find the option in the expert installation mode. Similarly, it uses GNOME 2.14 rather than the latest 2.18. Given the increasing maturity of the standard GNU/Linux applications, this choice matters less than it did a few years ago. Still, if only the latest will do for you, be prepared to spend some post-install time upgrading from the testing, unstable, or even experimental repositories.

In keeping with Debian's positioning as a free distribution, you will find that Iceweasel replaces the Firefox Web browser and Icedove the Thunderbird email client. These name changes were brought about by the Mozilla Foundation's efforts to defend its trademark, but do not affect the functionality of the programs in any way. You can still, for instance, use the Firefox extensions site to add functionality to Iceweasel. You may find the name change pointless if you aren't in sympathy with the Debian community's philosophy, but its solution to the trademark problem won't inconvenience you.

Security and software installation

Debian 4.0 includes some default security options, such as not allowing the root user to log in to a desktop. However, if security is a concern to you, then you need to use the expert mode when installing. There, you will find options for enabling SELinux, adding a password to the GRUB boot manager, and whether to use sudo the way Ubuntu does rather than the root password.

For package installation, Debian 4.0 includes Synaptic, which is probably the most user-friendly graphical interfaces for apt-get and dpkg, though it is still more limited than the commands themselves. And, no matter how you install additional software, you should note that, unless you installed in expert mode and chose to permit the use of non-free software on your system, you will not be able to add a Flash player or Adobe Acrobat until you add the contrib and non-free sections to the repositories listed in /etc/apt/sources.list.

Not dead yet

Rumors of Debian's decline or irrelevance have been circulating for some time. Debian 4.0 may not always succeed in following its guiding principles, but, overall, the redefinition that it provides is a successful refutation of these rumors.

Recently, the goal of many distributions seems to have become to be a free version of Windows for users without much understanding of their operating system. Debian counters that trend. Instead of accepting that users prefer to be ignorant, Debian 4.0 treats users as students -- as people who may initially lack knowledge, but who are capable of learning. It's a bold approach, and one that's needed badly enough that Debian may just have found a new purpose -- and, with it, a guarantee of its survival.

Bruce Byfield is a computer journalist who writes regularly for NewsForge, Linux.com, and IT Manager's Journal.

Bruce Byfield is a computer journalist who writes regularly for Linux.com.

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on Debian redefines itself with new release

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Applause

Posted by: pclessgeek on April 13, 2007 10:59 PM
Well worth the time it took to read this article. A balanced view and well thought out article.

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"Debian redefines itself with new release"

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 20, 2007 02:50 AM
Redefines? It's exactly the same, at the release time ancient packages of most important software and it will take some X years until the next release and at that point the software in 4.0 will be practically pre-jurassic. It's in overall the same old elitistic mis-managed distro project and should die away already.

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Re:"Debian redefines itself with new release"

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 22, 2007 12:08 AM
Well...


  I didn't try the distro out yet, but considering how many other dostros rely on debian, and how many people but an effort to it, even if it isn't the best you shouldn't talk so mean of it. After all, how many open source projects you develop to be so critic?

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Tx

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2007 09:32 PM
Nice article about Debian. Thanks to the author!

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Try Debian and you'll never use another server OS.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2007 09:58 PM
I should say you'll never use another non-Debian based OS. I was a hard core Red Hat fan for about 4years and when Sarge was released I decided to try it out. The package management, sheer number of packages available and the over all attention to detail with those packages are really what sets Debian apart. The thing that sets Debian apart from say an Ubuntu based server is that having the new version of a software package (unless you need specific functionality from that newer version) is NOT a large priority in an enterprise environment. You want stability, fewer package updates (because of bugs and security issues) and knowing that things are just going to work when an update is needed. Ubuntu is a great desktop but I wouldn't want to have to update my servers as much as I do my desktop.

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Great article

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2007 10:23 PM
The only people I've read discussing Debian's demise is SJVN over at <a href="http://www.linux-watch.com/" title="linux-watch.com">http://www.linux-watch.com/</a linux-watch.com> His priorities got a bit mangled in the last year.

He's been all about defending SuSE/Novell/Microsoft and promoting RedHat and SuSE. He has lost his voice of a GNU/Linux advocate and is instead a corporate-Linux shrill, one who opposes the gnu GPLv3 and is doing his own best to promote the corporate takeover of our community.

I have no problems with corporate GNU/Linux (they fund many major advancements), but I do realize that they exist due to the community, and they're most successful if they work with the community, not against it.

Thanks for setting the record straight on Debian -- its not meant to be the newest distribution, just (one of) the Best.

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I want Debian to live, but...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2007 11:15 PM
I've been using Debian for nine years, and testing for the past seven. The problems I've had with Debian of late come directly from the philosophy of "allowing experts to break it"--specifically the packagers.

My standards of purity are not as stringent as the Debian team. I never wanted Iceweasel; I'd rather keep Firefox. But instead of putting Firefox in non-free, they pulled a bait and switch. Now upgrading Firefox gives you Iceweasel instead, with no warnings. It's not the first time something like this has happened, but at the moment it's the most egregious.

I love free software. As a desktop user, I also want the option of using non-free or "merely" open source software. You can't sacrifice user freedom for the cause.

Perhaps the DFSG are too narrow, and need to open up a little, become more like the Perl Artistic License guidelines. Or perhaps the core developers are too narrow, and need to act less like the Supreme Court. I've stopped caring because I'm just a user now--or vice-versa.

It seems inevitable that I'm going to have to finally go looking for another, otherwise Debianish, distro: free as in speech<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/or/ as in beer, but free from idealogical purity.

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Re:I want Debian to live, but...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 12:18 AM
I think you got that kind of wrong with the whole firefox/iceweasel story: I don't think that there was even the option of just putting firefox into non-free (which btw in my opinion would have been a very bad choice anyway), as the guys from firefox wouldn't allow redistribution of the patched version of firefox at all.

I can see that you might have had other issues with Debian, but I can't understand what your problem with iceweasel is. It behaves exactly like firefox (actually, it is almost exactly like firefox, besides a few bugfixes maybe), it just has a different name. I don't understand why a name-change would be an issue as long as you'd be able to find the program with the new name, which I believe shouldn't have been a problem in your case anyway.

That said, I have some problems with Debian myself, but I think the day Debian gives up its free software guidelines will be the day when I switch to something else. I hope that day will never come though...

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Re:I want Debian to live, but...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 03:15 AM
What's wrong with an automatic upgrade of firefox to iceweasel.

Iceweasel is firefox, and its a later version than the old firefox.

If you wan't firefox that badly just install it from the official site yourself.

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Re:I want Debian to live, but...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 04:25 AM
Iceweasel has more differences than just the name and logo. Some of my plugins (e.g. rikaichan) were broken by the switch.

I also have problems with the ethics of it. I believe that if you're going to fork a project, you have to inform the users properly with a configuration dialog saying "Foo has become too commercialized and is therefore deprecated, so we recommend you switch to this free package," rather than preventing users from making an informed choice.

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Re:I want Debian to live, but...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 07:06 AM
Sorry, but you're clearly wrong: Debian's Iceweasel is in no way a fork. Also your ethical concerns are moot.

And yet another thing where you're wrong is that commercial applications are not the opposite of free software. There can be non-commercial applications that are non-free, and there can also be commercial applications that are free software. Debian doesn't object to commercialization, it objects to non-free software that restricts the distribution and use of the source code. Get it?

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Re:I want Debian to live, but...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 09:29 AM
> My standards of purity are not as stringent as
> the Debian team. I never wanted Iceweasel; I'd
> rather keep Firefox. But instead of putting
> Firefox in non-free, they pulled a bait and
> switch

are you stupid or something?

Iceweasel *IS* Firefox.

it's exactly the same program. all that's changed is the name.

btw, Firefox *couldn't* be put in non-free. trademark laws prevent debian (or anyone) from distributing anything called Firefox that doesn't conform to mozilla org's fairly strict trademark licensing rules.

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Firefox and TM.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 23, 2007 10:10 AM

btw, Firefox *couldn't* be put in non-free. trademark laws prevent debian (or anyone) from distributing anything called Firefox that doesn't conform to mozilla org's fairly strict trademark licensing rules.




Conforming to the "fairly strict trademark licensing rules" would just sum up to "put it in non-free" as far as I know. So... why do you say it *couldn't* be put in non-free?




Are you stupid?

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There needs to be a totally free distribution

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 10:41 PM
..if you can't appreciate software freedom, there are always other choices.

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Go Debian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2007 10:52 PM
I just hope Debian succeeds, as it is my distribution of choice. Ubuntu is nice too, but I'd much rather have Debian as it actually has better support for the whole archive and has clear guidelines that define it as completely free.

Still, Debian has some problems to tackle, but I think they'll be able to solve them.

Concerning non-deb distributions (such as openSUSE and Fedora): I don't know how anyone can live without apt-get<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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Re:Go Debian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 04:20 AM

That because you are ignorant. Apt-rpm has existed for over 5 years now. In Fedora it is part of the standard repositories

# yum install apt-get

Enjoy your apt-get in Fedora. Quick sheet for similar technologies:

deb format = rpm format
dpkg tool = rpm tool
apt-get dep resolver = apt-rpm, yum, up2date etc

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Re:Go Debian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 04:37 AM
I agree. I use both apt-get and yum with K12LTSP (the CentOS-based version) all the time. The commenter about rpm-based distros obviously hasn't done his homework<a href="mailto:admin@cmosnetworks.com" title="mailto">.</a mailto>

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Re:Go Debian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 16, 2007 12:24 AM
First of all, why don't you try to be a little more polite?

I'm well aware that you can use apt-get with rpm, it's just that it's not the default for say Fedora, CentOS or openSUSE, so I'm not sure if it is suitable for production systems in these particular distributions. You know, who guarantees me that it won't break my system on the next upgrade?

This brings me to another thing I like about Debian: The possibility to do live upgrades. Fedora does not officially support this, which sucks. I know that you CAN do it, but since it is not supported chances are high that you will end up with a hosed system. I'm not making this up, it has happened to me before, and having to reinstall anyway made me switch that particular machine to Debian too.

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Re:Go Debian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 10:43 AM
Actually they don't... now there's apt everywhere... I do like Debian but when etch become testing... there were many broken packages (as k3b)I hope that it never happens again.

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Re:Go Debian!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 10:44 AM
*pardon my english:

when etch becAme testing...

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Free

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2007 11:25 PM
I like how Debian GNU/Linux is rock solid on freedom.

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Well done, brilliant article

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 03:10 AM
While only one aspect of debain seems to be Redefined: the Debian desktop. This article is brilliant, well written, and insightful. Well done.

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Etch not reactionary

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 04:08 AM
The one flaw of this otherwise excellent article is that it casts Etch as the result of some kind of new approach that Debian has taken as a reaction to Ubuntu, rather than acknowledging that it is the current culmination of the approach Debian has been taking all along. It's why our website has always used hifalutin term "the Universal Operating System".

Trying to be all things to all people has been a continuing challange and inspiration to Debian in the 10+ years I've worked on the distibution. It has often resulted in slow development of a well-designed system instead of a quick special-purpose hack. It's our greatest strength and potentially our greatest weakness. Ubuntu's greatest relevance is perhaps as an illistration of how that weakness can be exploited. I'm glad that you think that Etch manages to play to the strength of the philosophy.

(BTW, selecting linux-image-2.6.18-4 installs the exact same kernel as linux-image-2.6.18, it just won't automatically upgrade your system to 2.6.18-5 when it's available. Selecting the default linux-image-2.6 is much better for most people. But this is why we hide this complexity from them in expert mode.)

-- Joey Hess

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Just upgraded a box from Sarge to Etch last night

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 04:49 AM
Hello Joey,

First, thank you profusely for working on Debian. Second, please continue!

We use Debian GNU/Linux on some boxes for both syslogging and NetFlow collection for some of our Cisco devices. The two apps for this are softflowd and flow-tools. Yes, the boxes have GNOME and Synaptic on them for easier local administration at the console. That means that Evolution is on there, too. All of them have the 2.6.8 kernel. The boxes are Pentium 4, 2.8GHz boxes, with 2GB DRAM each.

Given all this stuff on there (GNOME, etc.), we figured it'd be a great way to test whether Sarge will indeed upgrade to Etch. So, last night, we did it, from a remote SSH session.

The result: after three and a half hours, "apt-get dist-upgrade" was complete. We rebooted the box, SSH'd back in, and then upgraded to the 2.6.18-4-686 kernel. Rebooted again.

EVERYTHING WORKS FINE.

NOT A SINGLE THING BROKE.

Now, try that kind of upgrade with MS Windows...without breaking something.

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Re:Etch not reactionary

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 08:16 AM
And yet stable releases with a release cycle of 1,5 to 2 years are not the ideal solution for the home desktop users.

Hopefully your plans[1] to improve the security, usability and installation support for Debian "testing" will bear fruit in the not-too-distant future. Also the newly elected DPL's pronounced[2] interest in making Debian "sexier" by improving artistic designs and overall usability sound promising.

Frankly, I don't think that OpenSUSE, Fedora or Mandriva can seriously challenge Ubuntu's current popularity but Debian might just be able to do that. Ubuntu's strongest point is that it is based on Debian. Give Debian some artistic polish (themes and such) and make it easy for users to install a relatively up-to-date version of Debian (by releasing regular snapshots of "testing", for instance) and you'll have a winner.

[1] <a href="http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/debian/cut/" title="kitenet.net">http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/debian/cut/</a kitenet.net>
[2] <a href="http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/platforms/sho" title="debian.org">http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/platforms/sho</a debian.org>

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Re:Etch not reactionary

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 15, 2007 03:38 AM
And yet stable releases with a release cycle of 1,5 to 2 years are not the ideal solution for the home desktop users.

Isn't that why people are always pointed to the testing branch for desktop use?

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Re:Etch not reactionary

Posted by: nanday on April 14, 2007 11:15 AM
To be honest, I didn't intend to suggest the direct cause and effect that you've taken from the article.

Rather, my point was that many people have been feeling that Debian had something to prove -- and I think it's done so.

Whether its done so through a change of direction or by a culmination of a constant direction is another matter. I've talked to some Debian developers who see the new release as a change of direction, and obviously I agree. However, considering the work you've done over the years, I can see why you would feel differently; a lot of your attention has been in the spirit of the new release.

The difference now, I think, is that more of Debian shares your opinion. I've been using Debian for my main distro for six years now, and off and one for nine, and Debian 4.0 seems better-defined than any other release that I've used.

- Bruce Byfield (nanday)

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KDE and Xfce are also available HERE:

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 08:58 AM
"... but CD images for KDE and Xfce are also available...."

Pity, none of the article writers bother to tell you where these images are:

AMD64
<a href="http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r0/amd64/iso-cd/" title="debian.org">http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r0/amd64/<nobr>i<wbr></nobr> so-cd/</a debian.org> -- debian-40r0-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso
i386
<a href="http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r0/i386/iso-cd/" title="debian.org">http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r0/i386/i<nobr>s<wbr></nobr> o-cd/</a debian.org> -- debian-40r0-i386-kde-CD-1.iso
ia64
<a href="http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r0/ia64/iso-cd/" title="debian.org">http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r0/ia64/i<nobr>s<wbr></nobr> o-cd/</a debian.org> -- debian-40r0-ia64-kde-CD-1.iso

Jade @ <a href="http://linuxhelp.150m.com/" title="150m.com">http://linuxhelp.150m.com/</a 150m.com> (<a href="http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/" title="domaindlx.com">http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/</a domaindlx.com> mirror) where there are HOWTOs on:

1) cloning your windows XP/2000 installations using Linux (back-ups),
2) installing windows XP/2000 on a spare partition with Linux,
3) accessing and writing to Windows XP (formatted with the NTFS) from Linux,
4) a script to walk you through a Gentoo Linux installation,
5) remix those 14 Debian installation CDs as 2 DVDs,
6) the entire book "Linux Device Drivers 3" as a single web-page (ie in HTML format),
7) 3D acceleration for ATI cards (simple procedure, works for SuSE and Mandriva and Debian),
8) some discussion on the GPL and non-free third party kernel modules,
9) compiling the worlds best DVD/Movie/Video/MP3 Player and Encoder (MPlayer and MEncoder),
10) some politics, eg: Israel Fakes a Provocation for War (the "kidnapping" of Cpl Shalit),
11) and an AMAZING comparison of filesystems.

#

Weed OUT Microsoft infiltrators.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 11:04 AM
"We will do everything we can to make things very easy for the novice, while allowing the expert to tweak things."

What a load of CRAP.

If Debian really wishes to do this they would put SYNAPTIC (the easy to use package manager) on the very first CD and have it installed by default.

Many at Debian, do not wish their product to compete successfully with Microsoft, so they hide SYNAPTIC away where new users will never find it.

They have always done this.

Debian will always do this until the Microsoft infiltrators are weeded out.

Jade.

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Re:Weed OUT Microsoft infiltrators.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 05:43 PM
I disagree. There are a _LOT_ of debian installations out there without a GUI. Synaptic is a GTK application so it's useless on servers. (You dont run X on a server right)
If you install the complete desktop task it will give you the nice GUI package managers.

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SYNAPTIC is great with KDE or Gnome.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 06:08 PM
"Synaptic is a GTK application so it's useless on servers."

SO, WHAT? Don't be a COMPLETE and TOTAL idiot.

Debian installs the GNOME or KDE desktops by default. So, SYNAPTIC clearly fits right in.

The reason SYNAPTIC is not added to the desktops, is as mentioned earlier, big money (whether Microsoft or Novelle or Redhat or others).

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Re:SYNAPTIC is great with KDE or Gnome.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 15, 2007 03:07 AM
Synaptic is installed by default in the gnome desktop install, amazingly enough.

(Kde gets kpackage.)

#

Thanks.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 15, 2007 08:40 AM
Synaptic ISN'T installed by default with Xfce, either.

I've always used KDE. I figured (incorrectly) that the same would be the same for Gnome.

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Re:SYNAPTIC is great with KDE or Gnome.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 18, 2007 04:48 AM
You're the complete and total idiot.

Last time I checked, Debian didn't install GNOME or KDE by default. You have to select it.

Also, Synaptic is just another package management front-end for dpkg. If you want it, apt-get it. Stop complaining.

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You really should open your eyes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 17, 2007 04:28 PM
"What on earth are you going on about with MS infiltrators?"

Big business (Microsoft, Novelle, Red Hat) or the money that owns them, often sabotage Linux by infiltrating their people into various projects.

Also, you may not have noticed, but 99% of Linux bulletin boards are not there to help you, but to mislead you.

You would (probably) be surprised to learn that nearly all of my attempts to help folk understand, and use Linux, are unwelcome.

I have been banned from many bulletin boards and recently from the Linux Kernel mailing list.

Read <a href="http://linuxhelp.150m.com/gentoo/2005.htm" title="150m.com">http://linuxhelp.150m.com/gentoo/2005.htm</a 150m.com>

to see the results of trying to share a simple piece of Linux info that people did not want shared.

As to the Linux Kernel mailing list,...

Read ALL the messages I posted there (in the threads linked to below) and see if it really required some shady customers programming the mail server to reject my email.

Reiser4. BEST FILESYSTEM EVER.
<a href="http://www.thisishull.net/showthread.php?t=251443" title="thisishull.net">http://www.thisishull.net/showthread.php?t=251443</a thisishull.net>

REISER4 FOR INCLUSION IN THE LINUX KERNEL.
<a href="http://www.thisishull.net/showthread.php?t=251158" title="thisishull.net">http://www.thisishull.net/showthread.php?t=251158</a thisishull.net>

> : host vger.kernel.org[209.132.176.167]
> said: 553
> 5.7.1 Hello [66.111.4.28], for your MAIL FROM address
> policy analysis reported: Your address
> is not
> liked source for email (in reply to MAIL FROM command)

Moneyed interests do not want you to know that REISER4 is a very good filesystem, just like they didn't want you to know that REISER3 was also a very good filesystem.

In particular, REISER4 is a financial threat to them.

If you have not noticed this conspiracy, then you really should open your eyes.

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Re:You really should open your eyes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 18, 2007 04:50 AM
Hahaha... you're too funny! Do you wear your tin-foil hat in public?

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Re:Weed OUT Microsoft infiltrators.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 24, 2007 12:05 PM
Before feeding readers YOUR crap, feel free to verify that Synaptic *is* on the very first CD and installed by default.

Filipus Klutiero

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Re:Weed OUT Microsoft infiltrators.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 25, 2007 11:11 PM
I'm confused... what are you talking about?

First, Synaptic is on the first CD contrary to what you are saying.

Second, it is installed by default when you choose the "Desktop environment" selection during installation (which is selected by default).

Did you try Etch before saying this? Have you ever used Debian?

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Re:Weed OUT Microsoft infiltrators.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 02, 2007 01:33 PM
The original poster is correct on both of his/her points.

For proof: I just did a fresh install of Debian "Etch" from the (three) DVDs set and included on the command line:
tasks="standard, kde-desktop"
and Synaptic was not installed. I had to install synaptic myself after the post-install reboot. Synaptic was installed from the 2nd (of three DVDs) DVD disc by running aptitude in a console.

The original poster is correct about the corporate manipulations, infiltrations and takeovers in the open source communities too. As he/she asked: Wake up!!! Stop attacking the messenger and identify your true enemies!

But first, just wake up...

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Come again?

Posted by: Administrator on April 17, 2007 02:37 PM
Since all the others have declined to ask - out of politeness or de-trolling tactics, I suppose - I am left with the dubious honor of asking: What on earth are you going on about with MS infiltrators?

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Thanks debian guys and gals

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 11:37 AM
Installed etch on one of my old desktop PIIIs with 256Mb RAM using the netinstall CD. Compared to (KX)Ubuntu or Mepis, it flies. Compared to Ubuntu 6.10 and Mepis 6.5, Deb 4.0 is up-to-date with most packages and kernel. Now with time, it will slowly go out-of-date (duh, that's what makes it stable). . . but it is already way ahead of (KX)Ubuntu 6.06 LTS.

-dB

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You've made an important point

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 10:50 PM
To me, one of the strongest points of free software has always been the implicit offer to all its users: to gain technical expertise, and emancipate from the state of "clueless customer" many vendors are trying to lock one into. However, most Linux articles and reviews completely ignore this aspect. Thank you for clearly pointing it out, and for explaining how Debian fits into the picture.

As a sidenote, I never found Debian that hard to install, even with the old installer. My first attempt at a Debian installation was with Debian 1.3 (Codename "bo"). Apart from not being afraid of a text terminal and having survived a few installs of Windows 3.1 (ever tried that? - ick!), I did not have much qualification. But things went relatively smooth; the only major problem I can remember is that dselect was painfully slow on a 386 box with a 2x CD-ROM.

Since then, in my experience, Debian systems were at least as easy to install and configure as some other popular Linux distros, and also easier than Windows.

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noncommercial?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2007 11:05 PM
What the hell is Debian being built for, if not for business purposes? Get your head out of the nineteen-nineties! *SWAK*

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Re:noncommercial?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 15, 2007 02:02 AM
Debian is being built for two things:
1) its developers
2) its users, weather they are commercial or not.

Get you're head out of the captilist nonsense and realise that things other than money can make the world go round.

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Bogus assertion

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 15, 2007 04:24 AM
"And, no matter how you install additional software, you should note that, unless you installed in expert mode and chose to permit the use of non-free software on your system, you will not be able to add a Flash player or Adobe Acrobat until you add the contrib and non-free sections to the repositories listed in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/apt/sources.list."

In fact, if you install Flash (or whatever) directly from the software vendor, you do not need to enable any extra repositories or anything. So that is false. And Acrobat is not needed. There are free PDF viewers.

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Who cares about the nabs?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 15, 2007 08:13 PM
if you don't know what a stupid domain name is stick to windows/windows-wannabes and stfu. i'm so tired of people whining about debian and other distros not being easy to use. back in the day i searched for hours on google to solutions and tried stuff myself until i got it right. why can't these numbskulls do the same without whining?

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Re:Who cares about the nabs?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 16, 2007 04:39 AM
Because that would be a waste of time. If you just don't want to know what a hostname is why should the installation bother you with that? If you want to tweak, than you can search at google, but you shouldn't be forced to do so.
And I think that is the right way. Look at Mac OS X...a very nice and smoothly working OS. It doesn't bother you with anything. You can just use it, but you can tweak the hell out of it if you want.

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Re:Who cares about the nabs?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 16, 2007 06:48 AM
OS X is a bloated slow POS with terrible memory management and absolutely no package management. Compared to Debian it's about as tweakable as a toaster.

Don't talk to me about Fink/Darwin Ports. They are both broken, have terrible dependency problems and less than 1/10th of the packages Debian has. OS X is boring and worst of all _you have to buy a new computer to use the operating system_. Why on Earth would I want to buy into that? People will laugh at that in years to come. It's ridiculous!

I speak from experience, I have to use OS X at work and find it absolute tedium. I can't believe I still have to go to websites to find and install software. Sheesh Apple, get with the times!

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Re:Who cares about the nabs?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 19, 2007 04:19 AM
Yes you have to buy a new Computer, but from time to time you'd have to buy a new PC, too. So instead of a new PC you could go with a Mac.
Anyway...you don't like Macs...you don't like OS X fine by me =)
My point was, that there is NO reason at all to make something complicated. Not even tweaking should be complicated.

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Debian Dying??? Rubish!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 17, 2007 01:59 AM
Debian is a great OS and I have been using it in a real business environment for 4 years now! I have also been watching Ubuntu and it's not bad either, but lets not forget where it gets a ton of packages and packaging system. Ubuntu is a great attempt for a desktop OS but my server room will continue to hold Debian.

While I have yet to be satisfied with Debian on the desktop, I love it as a server. Ubuntu, even LTS has so many package updates and from my experience is not as stable as Debian. So as an admin with 25+ Debian servers who was once a Redhat guy, Debian will continue to be our backbone.

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xxx LIES, LIES, AND MORE LIES xxx

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 17, 2007 08:27 AM
"Ubuntu is a great attempt for a desktop OS but my SERVER room will continue to hold Debian.
While I have yet to be satisfied with Debian on the desktop, I love it as a SERVER."


These are the hallmarks of deceitful campaign to paint Debian as a server only distro, when in fact it is a GREAT DESKTOP.

Remember, Debian must be painted as a server only distro, BECAUSE DEBIAN IS A GREAT DESKTOP.

This LIE is told, BECAUSE DEBIAN IS A GREAT DESKTOP.

Wouldn't want you using Debian instead of Microsoft, or Novelle, or Red Hat, now would we.

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Just installed Etch at home--in "desktop mode"!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 18, 2007 06:25 AM
I just installed Etch last night. By default, GNOME is installed, along with Iceweasel (rebranded Firefox) and OpenOffice.org. I'm thus immediately productive. I can easily install KDE if I want (apt-get install kde), which I did.

I didn't find Debian any harder for me to install than Ubuntu. Actually, it was pretty painless and makes a rather nice--and remarkably clean--desktop box.

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Debian not user friendly, and not a good desktop?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 17, 2007 09:10 PM
I guess I will never understand comments like the questions I asked in the title to my post for two reasons.

1. I have been installing Etch for people who are both total noobs to Linux and who are also very typical Windows users for months now. Not a one of these people have complained about Debian being hard to use. To a person they like it. The fact that they can't administer Etch is a non-issue. Not a one of them could do squat about administering their previous Windows machines either so why is the fact that they can't administer an Etch machine an issue?

2. I started out as a total Linux noob 3 1/2 years ago with Woody. Did the installer force me to learn? Yup. I loved it. It took me 3 tries to get a working install, but when I had one it simply worked, was fast, and was rock solid. Both of the Red Hat and Mandrake installs I had tried never did work satisfactorily. They were easier to install, but so buggy the system wouldn't run right once installed, and made my system run dog slow, so what good were they to me?

When I started using Debian I had no thought of leaving Windows behind. I was learning Linux simply to improve my skills. I ended up leaving the Windows world behind because Debian was greatly superior to what I had known in stability, security, philosophy, and implementation. I found it had character, that it stands for something. I guess that's why I will never understand those who want to make Linux into just another Windows.

Why copy sleaze when greatness is available?

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Re:Debian not user friendly, and not a good deskto

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 18, 2007 02:33 AM
+1

ps: i still hate nabs >

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Re:Debian not user friendly, and not a good deskto

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on April 18, 2007 06:30 AM
I have to agree with the exception of Red Hat being buggy. Mandrake, yes, but Red Hat (I don't mean Fedora, I mean either Red Hat Linux or RHEL) always behaved rather nicely for me. The one exception was RHL 8, which even Red Hat admitted was a disaster (RHL 9 was *much* better).

I was a MCSE. I left it and Windows behind for similar reasons that you did.

Debian rocks. So, BTW, does Slackware, which is at this point my favorite distro.

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Debian redefines itself with new release

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 80.216.79.68] on September 10, 2007 02:07 AM
i like Debian and now wondering why i hadnt use it before.
i have tried other distros that copies the microsoft format
"wanna be all things to all men" and thought that i loved them.

now that im using "etch" i have noticed myself reading and
actually learning how this great software works instead of
the no brainer "clickardy click" route.

the only problem that i dont like about Debian is the length of
time for the next version. loosly speeking i find the every
2 year update is not in my best interest however if it calls for
the great testing and stable desktop then i prefer to stick with
it.

so in this case i hope Debian can live on and shorten the next
release time

Bill

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