Linux.com

Chances are, anyone that comes to newsforge.com isn't going to get near something like Lindows, but I was wondering if anyone's used it yet? I'm just curious of what it's like. Any notable features?

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I have Lindows, it's not that great.
It's root only without development tools and is missing weird things that most people would take for granted.

  You can't install it on a selected partition, either "friendly" as umdos on a fat32 partition with Windows, or else "Takever" reiserFS with no other OS on the system.

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We test 'em, so you don't have to. :-)

Tina's done two excellent reviews of Lindows. <A HREF="http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/09/2230251&mode=thread&tid=23">Here's Tina's latest review</a newsforge.com>, and <A HREF="http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/25/1811226&mode=thread&tid=23">here's her first one</a newsforge.com>. --
Grant

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I received a copy of their initial pre-release. It's ok but not wonderful. The area I take issue with is the default user being 'root' - you aren't told you are root or the consequences of running as root - it just automatically logs you in as root and brings you to KDE. This opens it up to trashing the system through user ignorance or a malicious virus - in essence exposing the user to the shortcomings of Windows 9x. What they neglect to tell the user is that they can change the default userid to a normal user id and help limit this exposure.

Lindows.com has some novel ideas - if they can put them all together and implement it properly they can have a descent product - but I wouldn't run out right away and buy a copy - let everybody else kick the tires for awhile.

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Not that it's any different if you're running Windows. Any of the 9x versions...even XP (Pro) gives the default user admin rights.

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In the end the only thing a user cares about are his documents. And a virus can trash those without a problem whether you're running as a regular user, or as root.

Ofcourse, that more apps are running as root is a security risk, because it opens up more holes, but inherently the danger is always there, so don't fool yourself.

If you don't have backups, you're playing with fire.

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Losing personal files are usually a relatively small problem (compared to the remainder of the system).
If that's not the case with you, at least it's a problem that's easy to solve. You can make backups.

Exposing the entire system is a completely different (and much worse) security problem.

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Maybe so... However, isn't the issue here a matter of seeing Linux (and Lindows) being an alternative to the almost ubiqutous Windows, and keeping the problems of Windows at bay? Namely, what most perceive as the biggest problem of Windows - instability. By allowing the user to remain logged in as root at all times, we increase the risk of something going wrong with the OS in general, thus leading to the problems that woe Microsoft with Windows instability.

We know that linux can be extremely stable, so I think that we should strive to keep it that way, and "condemn" any situation that would help in eroding away that inherent stability...

Personally I must say that I'm less worried about documents in a Windows system, then the ability to edit and use those documents. I have the responsibility to keep several Windows machines humming along, and the data is the easiest thing to keep backed up, and usually the last thing to get trashed. However, apps and the OS are the things that usually take a nosedive when things go wrong, and those are the ones I have to tear my hair out for...

YMMV
Kris

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I've already purchase my insiders membership nice try though troll.

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i found a beta of it, leaked somewhere, it was like 0.9something or other.

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I'm not a Mandrake user (I prefer Slackware), but I know that Mandrake has an excellent desktop distro, and it's great to see a viable option being sold besides that crap called LindowsOS. I hope Mandrake squashes LindowsOS like a bug -- for the sake of Linux and the consumer.

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Excellent! I have a WalMart Athlon 1.4 GHz box and it ran great with Mandrake 8.2. The install was a snap. I had it dual boot Freebsd 4.5 / Mandrake 8.2. I have to say my WalMart box does a really nice job. I can compile qt-copy, kdesupport, arts, kdelibs, kdebase in about 3.5 hours. This is for the initial cvs checkout.

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i agree !100%, any first time Linux user will have much better luck with that "first time Linux experience" with Mandrake...

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It is a pity to see Linux has to challenge Linux. Don't Linux has the same goal? No wonder until now, Linux still fails in most cases. I agreed that Mandrake has the best interface on Linux world.

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I hope lindoz fails and linux never becomes the
os of choice...then lots more virus and other
crap will come built for linux....let the rest
of the dumb ass world use M$...that will keep
our computing enviroment realtivley clean.

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I think this is good news. I personally would have liked to see Lycoris or ELX be the alternative to Lindows. But, in the end, Mandrake is pretty easy to use and their configuration utilities (diskdrake, etc) should be very easy for newbies to use.

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But lets just not start flaming Mandrake now :)

I wonder how well these machines are selling,
anyway... They are advertising, unlike Dell
every did before Microsoft slapped them around
to trash them altogether.

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Well, they're not selling yet, because the deal isn't signed between Mandrake and Microtel.

However, it will be interesting to see how it works. Unlike Dell, Microtel doesn't seem to have much of an allegance with Microsoft, so pressure from Gates won't work, although I suppose Microsoft could try to go after Wal-Mart.

Grant

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Unlike Dell or other companies Microsoft has pressured away from Linux, Wal-Mart is not primarily a hardware store. If Wal-Mart were to lose 100% of its computer sales they would still be the largest retail chain in the world.

That makes it pretty hard for Microsoft to pressure them at all. Microsoft's only real option is to partner with a hardware manufacturer to offer even cheaper systems to Wal-Mart and walmart.com, but then they risk upsetting existing customers who would want the same deal.

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They might get pissed, there isn't
much MS can do.

Gates: "Stop selling Linux you commies!"

Walmart: "Are you telling the largest retailer
on Earth how to do business? Get lost!"

Gates: "Stop or I will launch my ACBMs!"

Walmart: "ACBMs?"

Gates: "Anti-Competition Bullistic Missles!"

Walmart: "Haha! You spelled Ballistic wrong!"

Gates: "But we're talking..."

Etc.


  -Just Joking, As Always, Frapazoid

PS: And don't you dare take this seriously.

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The only PC vendor that's big enough to tell BillyG "fuckyou" is WalMart, maybie WM will make a holy war against MS just to make em sweat! :-)

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It would be interesting to know:

1. Is openoffice shipped / installed by Mandrake?
2. Openoffice on Lindows?
3. What games are installed?
4. What icons are installed?
5. Which internet provider gets to put their 'sign up now!' icon on the lindows or Mandrake desktop?
6. Do Lindows or mandrake come with a 'red carpet' - type updater?

Some important questions here, and some important information to gather - if WalMart is an internet provider (as they are, supposedly), are they going to insist on an icon of "Walmart Internet Now!" on the desktop of all these boxes? Why not and let them make a little more money (setting up some of these can be a pain, I'm okay with an easy-setup process to help my gma do it).

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>1. Is openoffice shipped / installed by Mandrake?

Yes 8.2 for i586 includes OpenOffice.org (BTW
due to trandmark issues the name of the software
is OpenOffice.org).

>5. Which internet provider gets to put their
> 'sign up now!' icon on the lindows or Mandrake
> desktop?

Well at least in Mandrake probably nobody.

>6. Do Lindows or mandrake come with a 'red carpet'
> - type updater?

Mandrake has MandrakeUpdate which will automatically
show you updated RPMS released for security or bug
fix reasons.

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Mandrake 8.2 PowerPack & ProSuite ship with StarOffice 6.0. And all MandrakeSoft can ship with StarOffice 6.0 OEM licenses (they already give them to all MandrakeClub.com silver members). Frankly, I recently made a comparative between StarOffice 6.0 and the latest version of OpenOffice and StarOffice is really better. Just two big differences : I never see Staroffice 6.0 crash, I usually crash (well... freeze) OpenOffice after 10 minutes use or with several .xls or .doc documents. Second difference, the import filters in StarOffice are *great*, while OpenOffice has big difficulties to import Microsoft Office documents. Furthermore, the font rendering in StarOffice is much better. And there is Adabas with StarOffice, which is a great tool :-)

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OpenOffice after 10 minutes use or with several .xls or .doc documents.

Hmm, that's interesting. OOo v1.0.0? On a RAM starved machine, with lots of documents open, I could see you slowing the machine to a crawl if you fill up the swap space. I've been using it for weeks now with no problems.

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Lindows has all these via its very easy to use Installer/Software Browser entitled Click-N-Go. Much better than Redcarpet

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click-n-go is a slightly prettier for-pay version of any of the apt-get gui tools. Not really impressive of you ask me. It's a shame nobody has managed to make a commercial debian distro and not go belly-up. Don't ask me why.

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Why then, has nobody else ever done it before? While Mandrake's graphics look "smoother," LindowsOS looks much more professional.

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I think it is still going to be a hard sell to the average consumer when 90%+ of the applications are made for windows. Do you think they are going to be savvy enough to understand that they can't just install their favourite windows app on it?

I love Mandrake as my Linux Desktop. I sure hope it kills Lindows.

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I would think of the targetted customer as:
1 "first time buyer" or

2 "wants an extra computer to play with, maybe use as a server" or

3 "Knows Linux, and wants to transfer her/his entire small business to Linux with out hardware configuration headaches"

The people who complain most about "not having my favourite Windows tool so Linux sux" are usually non-tech savvy professionals who BRAG about paying $3000 for a computer they can barely use and can't admit they don`t have a clue about computers (Accountants, Lawyers, Doctors . . .). These people ONLY buy Dell or name brands, and though they are currently the majority of computer users, they are by no means the majority of POTENTIAL users. In fact, I would say this entire economic slowdown has a lot to do with this market getting saturated, and the most expensive factor of production (the OS) has been unable to adapt (until now).

In short . . . this could be a really GOOD thing for Linux, Microtel, Walmart, and the consumer.

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personally, i support lindows. I'm a devoted RedHat admin, but let's be serious here - the average joe blow can't use a *nix OS. after 10 years of an MS controlled industry, everyone's perspective on what a computer is and how it works is the MS perspective. the filesystem alone will drive users crazy - I can hear the cries of "where's my C:?" already. If Lindows really CAN run windows apps and have a comparable GUI while using an open source linux base, then good on it. Normal users will be able to make the move to a Linux perspective of their computer at a slow and comfortable pace.

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the average joe blow can't use a *nix OS.

What about <A HREF="http://www.apple.com/macosx/">OS X?</a apple.com>

after 10 years of an MS controlled industry, everyone's perspective on what a computer is and how it works is the MS perspective. the filesystem alone will drive users crazy - I can hear the cries of "where's my C:?"

<A HREF="http://www.apple.com/switch/">Switching</a apple.com> from M$ is not really that hard.

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Why do you support Lindows? Cause you are hired by them!

No real arguments here that would favor *indows over the _real_ alternatives, like Redhat, Mandrake, SuSE, etc.

Is this sort of guerilla marketing? Then do better and leave your marketing terms out, you amateurs! Better don''t, so there is still the chance to detect you.

F*** o** and share the code, you M$-like gangsters! This is about a _free_ control of computers, not fooling people for their money!

Oh dear...

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Say it isn't so! Well it's about darn time!!!

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It doesn't matter if the "average" user can't install windows apps anyway, if the computer does everything they need it to out of the box. One thing I'd be wondering about, do any of these machines come with printers, I haven't bothered to look. I'd say most internet idiots use their machines for email and porn. What else is there?
Grandma Jones usually likes to be able to print out the pictures of her newly born grand daughters. Also They should come with Open Office or ABI Word, got to be able to handle MS docs.
I'll have to buy one to check it out, What is it 299 for the one without the disk drive, Geeze they couldn't spare the $20 bucks.

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Perhaps you would like some cheese with that whine.

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http://www.walmart.com/catalog/search.gsp?search_c onstraint=3944&search_query=Lindows
The $299 machine has a 10 GB drive.

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I think he meant "floppy drive"

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I understand that Mandrake is showing interest in getting its products installed on desktop computers. I hear that Carbon Linux is building computers that can be preinstalled with Mandrake, Red Hat, or SuSE software. But this is the first time I've heard of Mandrake being installed by a high volume retailer!

I'd like to see Mandrake succeed in this effort. I'd also like to see other fine software available in this same way. One other that I have in mind is Lycoris Desktop/LX.

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Don't worry, we'll be there in a bit. ;-)

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But I seriously think it would've been better for them to offer either Mandrake 8.2 or Lycoris Desktop/LX. Lycoris still has some work to be done on making it easier to manually install packages from tarball (I couldn't compile anything, pissed me off, maybe I was just doing it wrong, since I was still a near-newbie). One thing I love about Lycoris, though, is how it makes everything so similar to Windows for me. I mean, I dislike the Windows product line, but it's nice to have familiarity at first. Then, later on down the line, develop your own styles and tastes and modify the desktop however you please. You are, after all, free to do so on a scale much larger than Windows' allowing by default.

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I've been using microsoft products since DOS 4.0, and I think they've got it working fairly well for the most part. I'm a sys admin with a mostly windows shop, some of my users can't even right click and you want them to grep? All that said, I'm ticked off at Bill big time. First he changes the volume licensing program so that I have to pay retail unless I want to buy pre-made systems. Second, the whole XP licensing strategy is a major invasion of privacy, not to mention restriction of fair use. Third, .NET, software as a service, are you INSANE? Aren't there enough security problems out there as it is. I love my windows 2000 box, it does pretty much everything I want, but enough is enough. Beginning this year I started checking out the alternatives, have tried at least ten different versions of linux, and I think mandrake is probably the best I've seen, at least on the front end. If they're going to put that on mass-market computers I say congradulations and hopefully Bill will wake up and smell the coffee. I've started working mandrake into my network at work, and hopefully we can migrate over completely over the next few years. If you have a comment or suggestion feel free to email me at compjma@hotmail.com

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Sorry for the title, but really. Cannot anybody see the plot of Wal-Mart?. They don't expect ANYBODY to use the fsck'ing Mandrake or Lindows for that matter. They expect (and will probably get) everybody to install their copy of Window98 over whatever they give and carry along happily ever after. Not install it themselves perhaps, but everybody's got a comp-savvy-friend-or-relative.

Why not simply offer the machines free of OS? So as not to let an open door to accusations of encouraging piracy. It's so easy, it really is. You must only think as a bussinessman.

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They also sell bare PCs.

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The story notes that walmart.com sells bare PCs. In fact, it has a link to a review of one of the bare PCs before walmart.com decided to sell Lindows or Mandrake.

Grant

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While it is true that systems sold with an operating system discourage software piracy, it is not the only way to discourage piracy. In fact, this practice "taxes" those who do *not* want to use the operating system that comes with the hardware.

Also, I question your choice of operating systems. Who would want to use Windows 98 anyway? Windows 2000, which is much more stable, has been out for Y E A R S already. Any new computers will run it fine.

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I keep Win98 around to use for some old games on an old p133 w/24mbs of ram and a 2.5gb hard drive in the bedroom. My baby I use now is a p4 1.6ghz, 256mbs of ram, etc. in the living room that I use only for MDK Linux. I was so impressed with 8.2 I went out and bought the powerpack. I had Win2000 on it before but never again!!

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The fact of the matter is, so what if people buy the pre-installed Mandrake machines and install Windows on them instead...? As long as they own the license they are doing nothing illegal. At least everyone who actually buys these machines will get them home and give Mandrake a try.

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Bah? They do and have been for a while now. They just started selling w/ an OS. If you were to think like a businessman like you suggest, and that is their plot, it would be logical to assume they would never have started selling the computers packaged w/ an OS.. especially considering they are very like paying a fee, even if extremely small, for the OS/Software.

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I just realized that I am going to buy one of these. The prices are just to good to overlook.

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I believe that in the first few months(or years), only few people will buy those linux pre-installed computers because most of them will believe in M$ brand names even they don't know what M$ actually is just like Grandma. However, after the growth of all people, things spreaded and more people will buy those because their friends told me about linux even though they know nothing about it but all they care is "Can I print photos?", "Can I chat online?", "Can I do all documents?", "Is it better and how?" and in this stage, their friends and the sales will tell them about linux and the warranty, also the refund gurantees them to give a try. After all, the sector of linux users will suddenly grow just like baby boom. In the short run, M$ will still occur the whole market however, as linux becomes more popular and mature, it's not difficult to image that all Grandma(pa) will be using linux in the near future(in my opinion, this takes at least 10 years but this isn't long in some point of views). The points that linux will become much more popular is that it's open source and it's is growing every single day, e.g. KDE 3, Gnome 2.0 and all kinds of GUI come up in a short period where they can do all the necessities for normal use. Then it's about the technologies like BlueTooth, wireless network but these are not the problem since what people care is plug and play where linux's plug and play(auto-probe) function is getting mature(like Mandrake, though can't get 100% hardware support). Also, in the stage of OS X, Windows XP, there are much things for it to improve except releasing bug fixes. This is just like a gap for linux to chase them. At last but not least, M$ is doing all the things to prevent the licensing hacking but this is a move to block its customers out of the door. Linux education is getting more popular as well, like many of you guys are posting your stories, you are telling that you have 2 to 5 computers where just one of them is using windows and all others are linux installed. Your wife and childs are all using linux to do all kind of stuff. China is having huge population and it has a potential market. The China government is pushing the linux education so in the coming 20 years, there will be a "linux geeks" boom. My friend who studies economy/accounting in University of Toronto said that there will be a stage that Linux will not be open source and free(here means both freedom and cost) and M$ is too large to beat in the economic point of view and he gurantees his thought would beat mine in front of a CEO when presenting. Well, yes in current stage but I don't think M$ is the empire in the world now.

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If you want to beat MS, you have to beat yourself first. I meant getting Linux standardising on GUI. This will never happened in the Linux world as you guys love to create your own UI. So, how to beat MS???

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I see that Tina mentioned Mandrake 9's imminent release.

As someone who is about to get MDK 8.2 officially I am interested in the source of this: the Mandrake Cooker ?
Obviously I am only interested in stable OS software at this stage, not a alpha/beta or RC version of MDK.

We are about to convert all our PC's here to MDK 8.2

This includes my 9yo son. He is already a wizard with M$ products and will probably take to it like a duck to water (pun intended).

Given the marketing clout of Walmart (their business ethics aside), this MDK/Microtel bundle should raise some eyebrows.

Rgds

Andy

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Mandrake has a very regular release schedule...a new release every 6 months, with a Freq/Cooker unofficial release 3 months after release. The post-8.2 cooker release happened a couple of weeks ago, so...I'd say 2.5 months for 9.0 to come out the door.

Vox

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Don't be fool by the numbers. How much changes can be done in 6 months or less. It is just another marketing strategy for Mandrake to suck money out. Worse that MS. A shame.

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Silly remark. You can get MDK for free, if you want. We buy it to support Open Source and Mandrake. Just how is this "sucking money"?

More thinking and study, Less idiocy.

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People saying that the problem with Linux is that it needs a good GUI desktop. I've never agreed with this, because I still think that X kicks ass for visual effects.

The problem with Linux is that it's bloody hard for Grandma to download and install software.

This is one thing that Windows has done nicely. You click a link, say Yes to all the defaults (yes, download, yes, open zip/exe, yes, install all defaults, blah blah blah...) And Boom! Gma has the program running. Sure, I never select all defaults, but the point is that Gma CAN, and all she cares about is the program being there.

The real strength of Lindows is Click'N'Run. It's the Grandma-proof installer for Linux. Apt-get may be more powerful, but is it Grandma-proof?

----------------------
The problem with Linux for the masses
is that the masses aren't elite.

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Forget about Linux. Windows has the best practical solution for all levels of human being. Why search when the answer is in front of you.

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I don't know if Grandma's around the country will be able to use this computer, but I don't know the online Walmart demographic either. All I know is that My GrandMa uses Mandrake, and windowmaker at that.

If that scares you, here's one better. She can't crash the thing(reiserfs). It's been up for 8 months, she just dials in, checks her email, browses with galeon, and when she needs help- I rdesktop(vnc) or ssh to her. And show here what that big button does on the right hand side.

I don't think we should underestimate the intelligence of people buying a preconfigured linux box. It's not hard when you can tweak and dumb the hell out of it. And don't underestimate the leverage of a 300 dollar computer.. I mean crap almighty. Anyway, that's what I see. Maybe we're all just in shock.

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please read the EULA before you buy a lindoze box !!!!
http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_OSEULA.php

tux

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What's going on with these guys? Sell you support of your product and tools developed. I can't believe they are licensing this like that. I sure hope that they didn't use any linux kernel open source code developed by ......

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I'm wondering what kind of consequences linux preloads has on the ms trial. I mean, the whole point is that MS owned the market. But now there's mozilla, so MS can't ever destroy the browser market, and there are linux preloads, so there are signs OEM's may truly become free for the first time in decades. Maybe that entire trial wasn't necessary after all for anything but showing people what kind of company microsoft really is. (And people now it now, whereas before they didn't.)

Now, when the average computer store starts preloading linux, that's when I'll be satisfied, but this is a good sign. I don't think linux is ready (as in: easy enough to use) to be preloaded, but it's a good sign nevertheless.

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Watch out, Gates, HERE COMES LINUX!!!!!!
Way to GO LINUX!!!!!
Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, Debian, Turbolinux,
They're all good!
Jesus loves everybody!

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Truth is, Jesus uses Redhat to surf from above.

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The Walmart.com units contain special custom drivers written specifically for the Microtel project.

If these drivers are so _special_ that they are proprietary, all is not roses. It'd be roses with a great big land-mine planted in the middle of them.
Proprietary drivers make it difficult (impossible for the casual user) to upgrade or do anything at all independent of the proprietary vendor.

It would be a terrible experience for those who
hope to escape the Microsoft's yoke to find that
Linux puts them in the same bind. An experience
that could sour the Linux market for years.

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I doubt that casual users will even upgrade their systems at all. H*ll at $300 I think I'd rather buy another computer than upgrade. But, They(Microtel/Walmart) are only writing custom drivers for their custom equipment anyway. I can tell you from experience that if they did upgrade, Mandrake 8.2 will probably support the new equipment anyway, as long as it's standard stuff.

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Sure, "as long as it's standard stuff." Just keep in mind <A HREF="http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6152&mode=thread&order=0">
Use Binary-Only Kernel Modules, Hate Life</a linuxjournal.com>.

If the enterprise customer can't handle proprietary drivers, the consumer certainly can't. The Linux community should be careful. Just because a product is sold as Linux by a major retailer doesn't mean it's _all_ Linux.
The quality of the total package must be evaluated. Should proprietary, binary only, drivers be part of the package a large portion
of what Linux brings to the table is poisoned.
Bad products sold with Linux on the label will hurt rather than help. We need to be _especially_ careful with mass-marketed products.

Just because a machine is sold cheaply, doesn't mean the purchaser is a "casual user". Many people who buy cheaply try to get _more_ out of their equipment, because they have more time than money.

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To be fair, every distribution except Debian includes propietary software.

Still, you have a point. And the propietary software included in distributions is middleware.

In the case of RedHat and Mandrake, they have donwload editions which are all-free (speech) software.

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This is great news!! I can't believe it!! Although I am now a SuSE user, I have used Mandrake in the past and it is a GREAT distribution. This is going to work! People always say that Linux is hard to install and that people use their MS boxes with no problem. But that's comparing apples to oranges. You'd have to compare a box with MS preinstalled vs. a box with Linux preinstalled. If Walmart is selling these boxes with Mandrake already installed, people will be able to use Linux right away without the installation issues.

As a *linux* user (forget about distribution choice) I say: way to go Mandrake!!!

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Not sure if I want to try Lindows. I am using the Mandrake Power Pack Edition (Retail Version) and absolutly love it. This distro suites my needs extremly well as it is loaded with a ton of development features to help in the development and deployment of custom applications. Also, their advanced xtranet server software that comes with this distro is excellent!!!!

I currently have this os installed on two systems, one a solid linux only box and the other dual os's (Mandrake and XP Proffesional).....

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