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Fair use advocates silenced at DRM "public" meeting

By on July 18, 2002 (8:00:00 AM)

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-By Grant Gross -
Advocates trying to speak for regular Internet users were basically told to sit down and shut up during a "public" workshop on digital rights management dominated by IT heavyweights and Big Hollywood at the U.S. Department of Commerce Wednesday.
Members of NYLXS and NY for Fair Use mostly had to settle for interjecting comments from the back of the room and distributing a pamphlet called "We are the Stakeholders" and buttons saying "DRM is theft."

The meeting's purpose was to discuss the progress of digital rights management -- the process by which record and movie companies control how you use the products you've purchased from them -- and how the government can help grease the wheels of DRM. The fair use advocates argued that digital rights management allows Big Hollywood to steal fair use copying rights from the public and steal several current uses of computers away from the public.

Brett Wynkoop of NY for Fair Use did get a comment on the record because he sat at the table with Big Hollywood and Big IT and commandeered the microphone at one point, which meeting moderator Phillip Bond, undersecretary for Technology in the U.S. Department of Commerce, later objected to. "We have a structure here," Bond said more than once when fair use advocates tried to take the floor.

During his short comment, which Bond tried to cut off, Wynkoop asked how this government-sponsored working group could consider moving forward without customer voices. He suggested Congress has already gone too far by passing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and outlawing technologies that circumvent anti-copying efforts -- possibly making criminals of people who use magic markers to defeat a CD anti-copying scheme. "Should government be making statutes to criminalize fair use or make criminals of innocent citizens?" he asked.

At one point, the fair use and Free Software advocates thought they had more of a stage when MPAA president Jack Valenti told a NYLXS member he could respond if he'd let Valenti finish his thoughts. Valenti was saying that IT people, content people and content deliverers need to come to a consensus on an acceptable digital rights management, when NYLXS member Vincenzo ("one name, like Cher") stood up and shouted, "What about the public?" (Valenti's response, prompting loud groans from the crowd: "I am part of the public!")

Vincenzo then sat and let Valenti continue talking about why something must be done to stop millions of consumers from "stealing" content from the U.S. movie and recording industries. Moderator Bond then said he'd let Vincenzo speak "out of respect for Mr. Valenti," but when Vincenzo tried to defer to the Free Software Foundation's Richard Stallman, Bond cut him off, saying Stallman could leave a comment on the Commerce Department Web site.

The fair use crowd objected loudly, and Bond said he'd try to get more consumer representation on future panels. Jay Sulzberger of LXNY then tried to get Bond to commit to including a fair use advocate, but Bond responded, "I will not be dictated to."

Fair use advocate Seth Johnson, of the Information Producers Initiative, stood in the back of the 100-seat room with his hand up for two hours, but Bond never acknowledged him.

The workshop included 23 panelists, with representatives from the Recording Industry Association of America, the Motion Picture Association of America, Disney, two record companies, Microsoft, and AOL Time Warner. Only one panelist, Graham Spencer of digitalconsumer.org, represented typical customers of digital content, and he didn't say much. Another panelist, from the Home Recording Rights Coalition, represented a small, atypical consumer group. The meeting room, with about 80 unassigned chairs, was packed and more than a dozen audience members stood the entire three hours or sat on the floor.

Robin Gross, intellectual property lawyer for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, said her organization was disappointed that it wasn't invited to be part of the digital rights management workshop. She later said the EFF was invited to comment in writing.

Asked later why she didn't try to speak, Gross answered: "I'd be happy to give my opinion to anyone who'll listen, but they're not listening. Our position was not welcome at this table."

The workshop did have its moments of controversy within the invited ranks, with representatives from Phillips Electronics and IBM saying the average consumer was under-represented in the discussion. When Bond was asking panelists what government can do at this point, digitalconsumer.com's Spencer said: "The role of government is to make sure there's consumer representation. I think we need to have more consumer groups at the table."

Listen.com's Rob Reid received applause from the audience when he disputed Valenti's assertion that Big Hollywood can't possibly compete with free "pirate" distribution services.

Reid said those selling digital content, like Listen.com does in a $10-a-month subscription, have to make it more convenient, higher quality, and more comprehensive than free music download sites. "I have to create something that's better than free," he said. "I have to give $10 worth of value. I don't win by legislation, and I don't win by litigation -- the Internet is too open and the software developers are too good."

Doug Comer, Intel's director for legal affairs, quarreled with movie industry officials. He noted that IT industry leaders sent an open letter to Hollywood this week saying there's more discussion needed between IT companies and Hollywood over who should shoulder the DRM burden. Valenti said the movie industry had responded within 24 hours to the letter, although the IT industry had taken 11 weeks to respond to an earlier Hollywood letter.

"Why make the point on that?" Comer asked angrily.

As Valenti and Comer continued to argue, Stallman said loudly from the back of the room: "So the movie companies and IT companies join together to restrict us?"

Comer also disagreed with Preston Padden, v.p. of public policy for Disney, who called for government intervention in DRM because he didn't see all sides coming to an agreement without a push. Comer retorted that he doesn't think Hollywood will end its fascination with sex and violence without government intervention, either.

Even Bond scored some points at the MPAA's expense. In his opening remarks, he noted that Linux users still cannot legally play DVDs. And Bond questioned Valenti's comments that DRM schemes need to fix the problem of peer-to-peer sharing, while saying, "it's in everybody's best interest to give the consumers what they want."

Bond responded: "Jack, you say we've got to deal with peer to peer, but I think that's what consumers want."

At one point Valenti even claimed that the movie industry supported VCRs when they first came out, supposedly like the movie industry is now supporting the Internet. Bob Schwartz of the Home Recording Rights Coalition reminded Valenti that the MPAA tried to get an injunction against VCRs in the early '80s and wanted to charge a $25 to $50 "piracy fee" for every blank videotape sold.

After the meeting ended without anyone from the audience but Wynkoop allowed to respond, the fair use advocates vowed to fight to have their voices heard. They said they didn't intend to disrupt the meeting, just raise their concerns about DRM.

Stallman suggested the limited participation at the workshop illustrated the larger problem that the whole concept of DRM turns copyright case law upside down. Generally, there's a recognized "copyright bargain" recognized in the law, in which the public gives up some of its copying rights for the public good -- so that artists and producers can continue to get paid for their work.

"There's only one party that really matters in the copyright debate -- that's the public," Stallman said. "As long as the system functions well enough that artists are still making a living, why do anything about these leaks at all?"

Ruben Safir, president of NYLXS, said the congressmen he talks to recognize their fair use rights to make copies of a New York Times article or record a TV show on TiVO. During an impromptu press conference in front of the Commerce building, he suggested the movie and music industries can't complain about theft after they've legally sold movies and music to the public. "If someone breaks into my house and steals my CDs, who calls the cops, me or the music industry?" Safir asked. "If it's me, then that's my property."

Safir said his group will try to educate lawmakers about copyright issues, as well as have more of a voice in DRM debates. If necessary, the group make enough of a nuisance of itself to "poison" the DRM debate in Congress, he said.

"They're going to hate us, but they're not going to have the choice," he said.

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on Fair use advocates silenced at DRM "public" meeting

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Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 12:00 PM
You know, I have never purchased a movie that didn't contain a statement prohibiting the copying and distributing of it. Movies and Music are not released under the GPL or any other such license; so you have no "right" to copy this content and give it to all of your budies, regardless of what Richard Stallman thinks.

I also read in the article where P2P should be supported because "that's what consumers want". Hmmm, too bad that most (maybe not all, but most) of what users of P2P "share" with each other is commercial music, movies and software. I guess people feel better about breaking the law when they call it sharing instead of what it really is: stealing.

Yes it is unfortunate that these big companies are stonewalling their own customers about these issues. I am confident that it will come back to bite them in the ass in the end though. Please remember that these companies have no obligation at all to their customers other than what the terms of the purchase were. Free markets are great; if a company treats enough customers like crap for long enough, they will quickly find themselves out of business when the customers leave. This is one of the reasons why more and more people are walking away from Microsoft towards Open Source Software.

This is how things are supposed to work, stop complaining about how your rights are somehow being violated and start taking your money elsewhere. They will eventually get the message. If not, let them rot in bankruptcy.

Could somebody please post a link to where it is written that Linux has been singled out as being unable to have a legal DVD player developed for it? Not a smartass question, I would seriously like to know.

#

Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 12:19 PM
Its much worse than what you make it out to be. The content companies want to restrict your use of music to a device. So for example I can buy music electronicly to play on the portable drm capable music device, but I have to buy it again for my home drm capable system. They also want to limit your ability to make copies for your own use. For example, I like to make copies of my CDs for my car since I don't like my purchased copies melting in the heat or being stolen. Part of the proposed DRM solution would not allow you to play that copy on any other device. So if I copy on my computer, I can't play it in my car.

While I agree that people are breaking the law giving away the music they have purchased and copying it thousands of people over the internet there are already laws againest that. Thats one of the key things I think people keep forgeting so I want to say it one more time.


  There are already copyright laws which are not being enforced

We do not need more laws and a "new solution" which are just thinly veiled attempts by the media companies to get more money. They already receive money for each blank dvd, cd, blank cassette, blank vcr tape sold the united states at least (I don't know about other counties).

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 07:00 PM
> We do not need more laws and a "new solution" which are just thinly veiled attempts by the media companies to get more money. They already receive money for each blank dvd, cd, blank cassette, blank vcr tape sold the united states at least (I don't know about other counties).

Well, in Germany it's just the same. I believe we also have to pay to a number of industries when buying printers, photocopiers and related equipment. It's not like anybody cares whether you do copy stuff that is illegal to copy. It's just assumed you do.

So you better do, you've already paid for it.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 12:37 PM


  Wrong logic. Music, and Movies are an industry. And they have the right to sell anything they want , as long as it does not interfere with the well-being of the society. Right to make money is not a right , but a privilege granted to the corporations etc... as long as it is for the public good. However, they have no right to restrict the the usage of any other equipment , whose primary purpose is NOT to pirate what they are selling. If they want to , they can either come up with equipment whose only purpose is to plat what they sell, or kepp their products off the market ( which I hope they will do. I'd be happier not buying another of their products anyway.)


  As a consumer and general-public, my rights to use what I bought ( as a computer with Linux) are above and beyond their rights to sell. So when the push comes to shove, it is they who must stop selling, before they can restrict my rights.


  This is a society for the people and by the people. Not and never will be for corporations.


  This will become a non-issue when Microsoft goes bankrupt soon anyways....

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: WarPengi on July 18, 2002 02:02 PM
"This is a society for the people and by the people. Not and never will be for corporations."



Oh really? Then I think something must have gone horribly wrong while you weren't looking.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 04:43 PM
must have...

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 10:03 PM
People needs somewhere to work and thats why corporations are _also_ important, that doesn't mean people are unimportant but business is important to.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: schmidm77 on July 18, 2002 09:47 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong on this one but when did companies start spawning on their own? I was always under the impression that they were created and ran by people.

And now for the rest of your irrational babbling...

Right to make money is not a right , but a privilege granted to the corporations etc... as long as it is for the public good

Could you please explain this one to me? Are you saying that I have no right to demand payment from somebody who uses my product? Or as only being a privilege granted to me (by whom?), do I just have to accept it when it is deemed better for society if everyone gets to use it for free?

However, they have no right to restrict the usage of any other equipment

The issue is not whether they can restrict the usage of equipment, the issues is whether they can restrict onto which equipment you are allowed to listen or view their content after the purchase.

When you buy a CD, you are purchasing the right for your usage only; not the usage of all your friends too. The problem with DRM is that in trying to combat illegal usage of content by those who haven't paid for it, they are severely restricting the usage of those who have.

This will become a non-issue when Microsoft goes bankrupt soon anyways

Everything revolves around Microsoft doesn't it?

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Rocky on July 18, 2002 10:47 PM
Could you please explain this one to me? Are you saying that I have no right to demand payment from somebody who uses my product? Or as only being a privilege granted to me (by whom?), do I just have to accept it when it is deemed better for society if everyone gets to use it for free?


I believe the original poster was saying that corporations making a profit isn't a "right" guaranteed to them - in otherwords if they lose money it is up to them to do something to start making a profit or close the doors - the public has no intrinsic obligation to make them profitable.

In otherwords - if they aren't meeting a need of their customers at a price they are willing to pay that's their problem - not the customers.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: schmidm77 on July 18, 2002 11:04 PM
And nobody has claimed otherwise.

The public, however, does have an obligation to pay for the products that they use. That is the only obligation though.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: fitzix on July 19, 2002 11:03 AM
And nobody has claimed otherwise.

Actually, the corporations have...

The public, however, does have an obligation to pay for the products that they use. That is the only obligation though.

That's not entirely legally true.

Legally, the public has the obligation to abide by any contract that is made with them as long as it doesn't violate federal/state/local law.

If I want to release any copyrighted material for free, the public has no obligation to pay me a dime. They do have an obligation to obey the copyright license, which is how Free Software works.

Anyway, Federal law also dictates fair use rights. If I let me friend borrow a tape/CD, and my friend listens to said tape/CD - we aren't violating copyright and breaking the law... we're exercising fair use rights as they are dictated by federal law.

It's a LOT more complex than just minimizing the situation to a "pay-per-play" type of relationship. That is not a valid representation of copyright law and is a very dangerous perversion of it's intent.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 11:02 PM

You have individual rights, but exchange of money is not an idividual right because it can be used to subjugate and control others. Corporations are nothing but mechanisms of subjugation but we grant them these rights to control our lives only so far as they are improving life for everyone.



If it is better for society for the music and movie industry to become obsolete then they should. There is no appeal to rights here. The only valid argument for DRM is whether it will hurt the quality of music and movies available if we allow free distribution. I think the answer is obvious: Free exchange of data (movies, music, and software) do more to improve society than a corprate system can on its own. Its time that we stop running to defend corprate rights and demand they find a new source of revenue that doesn't hurt the consumer. A business founded on denying a service to the public cannot be considered valid. Imagine a world where everyone, regardless of income level (granted they can get to a computer) has access to all the liturature ever written and all music ever composed. Where all people have access to the tools needed to improve their lives. This is not far away, the only thing in the way is corprate greed and an uncaring public.


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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: fitzix on July 19, 2002 10:57 AM
Could you please explain this one to me? Are you saying that I have no right to demand payment from somebody who uses my product?

I think what the original AR is trying to say (and he's right) is that corporations shouldn't EXPECT that the populace has an OBLIGATION to give them profit.

Stating that profit is a right is giving corporations the inate ability to demand a profit.

Which, if you've read anything about "fair" capitalist systems - you have to realize that it is quite possible for corporations to not be profitable and that they can't - as a solution - take that out on their customers in the sense of violating their rights.

The issue is not whether they can restrict the usage of equipment, the issues is whether they can restrict onto which equipment you are allowed to listen or view their content after the purchase.

Hence, subsequently, restricting usage of the equipment.

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Linux and DVD's; P2P

Posted by: gus3 on July 18, 2002 01:30 PM
According to the DMCA, circumventing encryption without the encryptor's approval is a crime. DeCSS does exactly that. By decrypting DVD's without using code that was approved by a member of the MPAA (whether you use DeCSS or some other "thing"), you are violating the DMCA.



As far as P2P, there are a lot of artists out there that want their music on Napster, Audio Galaxy, Gnutella, KaZaa, etc. (Tom Smith even wrote a tune about it, called "I Want My Music on Napster". Guess how I downloaded it?) P2P provides an alternative outlet, away from the RIAA's choke-hold, that gives easy exposure to lots of musicians. The same will soon happen for independent movie-makers as well. If the RIAA and the MPAA have their way, P2P would be destroyed, and then they will have the sole means of public exposure. Of course, that's what they want. But the truth of how they coerce their artists into oppressive long-term contracts is finally coming to the fore. They are becoming paranoid, and starting to exhibit the same fear Microsoft had towards Linux five years ago.

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Re:Linux and DVD's; P2P

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 03:50 PM
I have never ever seen anyone complaining about music and movies that isn't copyrighted (or the author accepts it) beeing spread around.

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Re:Linux and DVD's; P2P

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:19 AM
You haven't? The new laws used to 'protect' the RIAA from internet radio streaming make it very onerous and a high legal risk to transmit any recorded material, regardless of who made the recording or if they want you to stream it. If you think that's accidental, you're not thinking clearly. It is a blatant attempt (and a successful one<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-( ) by the RIAA to get legislation put in place that keeps the RIAA in control of what music you hear.

And yet I hear some of the very people they're harming with this legislation defending them!

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Re:Linux and DVD's; P2P

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 02:29 AM
The new laws used to 'protect' the RIAA from internet radio streaming make it very onerous and a high legal risk to transmit any recorded material, regardless of who made the recording or if they want you to stream it.


    Yow, this could make for some interesting reading. Care to post a URL or two? (Genuine curiosity here from someone that believes in reading it first-hand, not a troll issuing a challenge.)

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ASCAP and BMI audits

Posted by: tepples on July 19, 2002 06:22 AM


Yow, this could make for some interesting reading.


In the early days of popular-music radio programming, many radio stations licensed tunes from both ASCAP and BMI (the prominent musical work rights organizations in the United States), but some radio stations played only ASCAP's music or only BMI's music. Soon, one of the orgs (I forget which one, but call it ASCAP for discussion) went down the list of music radio stations that didn't license ASCAP music and sent them all nastygrams. and the stations faced costly copyright compliance audits, and they realized that licensing both catalogs was cheaper than audits.


In addition, if RIAA makes any progress in closing the analog hole, it'll be impossible for home users to record their bands' original works for free public distribution on the Internet. (I'm not claiming that garage band music is original.)

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all the people of the village violate DMCA

Posted by: tepples on July 19, 2002 06:14 AM


By decrypting DVD's without using code that was approved by a member of the MPAA (whether you use DeCSS or some other "thing"), you are violating the DMCA.


The DMCA is unpopular. <A HREF="http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20020428">It's almost as if the Village People were singing about breaking the DMCA</a userfriendly.org>. Unpopular laws violate the USA legal principle of popular sovereignty, that is, government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Once Americans learn the true import of the DMCA and S.2048, they will revolt.


Those in the know just need to get the word out.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 02:10 PM
Yes, and every CD or album is protected by the same copyright laws....but you have the legal right to copy the music for your own use, such as making a mix tape or CD. The agencies in question want to end that right, forcing form as well as content. Can they do it? Sure. Can we fight it? Sure. It ain't whining.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 04:15 PM
Every entirely open source operating system can't play DVD's legally, because the only way to play DVD's within the bounds of the DMCA is by buying a license from the DVD-CCA, and that dictates that i has to be impossible to make screenshots of a movie playing. You can imagine how easy it is to get around any limitations put into the system that block you from taking screenshots while playing a movie when you have the source. So having the source means not having DVD's, in the US at least.

This was by the way one of the reasons why it took so long for OS X to get DVD playing capability, because they had to find a way to get the closed source layers to sufficiently mask the DVD from the open source lower levels.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: David Cooper on July 18, 2002 05:48 PM
Can you play DVDs under VMware or VirtualPC? If so, you could take screenshots using the host OS, couldn't you?

Incidentally (slightly off topic), in principle you could use bochs (don't know about VMware or VirtualPC) to decode DRM-protected audio files, simply by installing your favourite DRM-friendly media player and redirecting audio output to a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.wav file. Basically it'd be a digital version of the horrible, nasty, evil "analog hole". Actually, this probably makes bochs illegal under the DMCA... do'h.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 09:41 PM
(snip)
that dictates that i has to be impossible to make screenshots of a movie playing
(/snip)

I don't believe this is a true statement. Several legal commercial Win DVD players allow screen shots of the movies as they are playing. Having purchased one myself I know this. Intervideo's WinDVD for example.

Just my $.02 (US)

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: schmidm77 on July 18, 2002 10:03 PM
Wasn't InterVideo working on a Linux version of their DVD player? I see to recall though that it was only going to be sold to OEMs.

WinDVD is a superior product, I would love to see their Linux version at work.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 04:55 AM
They were. 2 years ago. It has yet to materialize. There was an IBM linux laptop that came with some sort of DVD playback software, but it was only one machine and cost around $3000, so that really didn't count

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: David Cooper on July 18, 2002 05:08 PM
> you have no "right" to copy this content and
> give it to all of your budies

True, you don't have a right to distribute movies, songs, etc. but there is a US law (I'd imagine there's something similar in most developed countries) that protects you from prosecution if you make copies only for personal use (although the DMCA and equivalents will often prevent you from legally obtaining the tools you need to do this.) Content distributors would love to get rid of the fair-use provisions so they can sell you the same content multiple times.

> I guess people feel better about breaking the
> law when they call it sharing instead of what it
> really is: stealing.

It really isn't stealing, you know. To me, stealing intellectual property means plagarism, not unauthorised distribution. If person X gives a copy of movie Y to person Z, who had no intention of buying it anyway, then the makers and distributers of movie Y have lost nothing. I'm certainly not saying it's "right" to do such things, just that it isn't exactly a cardinal sin worthy of the sort of harsh rhetoric coming out of the RIAA and MPAA. Content distributors won't support this point of view, of course, because person Z helps to give their rantings and ravings about lost sales more weight.

> This is how things are supposed to work, stop
> complaining about how your rights are somehow
> being violated and start taking your money
> elsewhere. They will eventually get the message.
> If not, let them rot in bankruptcy.

This isn't going to work if an entire *industry* is ganging up on you. Also, some of the things being proposed by the movie and recording industries (eg. the CBDTPA) would have a profound impact beyond listening to music and watching movies, particularly in the development of open-source software.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:19 AM
I guess people feel better about breaking the law when they call it sharing instead of what it really is: stealing.

Would it still be "stealing" if copyright law didn't exist? Is anyone deprived of some physical object when another ethereal copy is made? If a poor man copies a music CD he could not afford, is anyone worse off than if he had simply gone without? Calling a copyright violation "stealing" is nothing but propaganda. Call it dishonesty if you like, but it's not stealing no matter which way you cut it. And does anyone REALLY believe that all P2P use is just because people are unethical cheapskates? Could it be, perhaps, that people are fed up with paying the "Record Company Tax" on the transfer of works from artist to consumer? A little 'Tea Party' against the wealthy, abusive tyrants perhaps? Now, granted, this is not an end-all solution. If people are going to boycott "Big Record Company," they'd better get used to producing their own Tea as well because you'd better believe the enemy is going to come back, guns blazing in protest. If you want change, you have to make it happen, even if it's not the easiest route.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: fitzix on July 19, 2002 11:08 AM
Stealing implies theft.

Legally, theft implies not the taking of something that isn't yours - but rather depriving the use of something to it's rightful owner.

If I were to "steal" your TV - the crime would not be in my possessing the TV, but in my barring you from accessing the TV in the way meant when you purchased it.

Hence, copying media is not and never will be theft.

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Re:Here we go again

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:47 AM
Could somebody please post a link to where it is written that Linux has been singled out as being unable to have a legal DVD player developed for it? Not a smartass question, I would seriously like to know.

It's technically forbidden by the DMCA - since no 'approved' vendor produced software to decode the contents of a DVD it's illegal for the software to exist. It's not Linux being targeted specifically - it's any OS not 'blessed' by the movie makers. Instead of responding to consumer requests to support a broader range of options, they simply outlaw the ones they didn't create.

OK, here comes the argument of 'they cannot support every nickel and dime platform that comes along!' to which my response is simple: then don't distribute encrypted content. If you're going to intentionally restrict what you peddle to consumers it should be clearly marked with details and full restrictions in plain language and readable before the purchase is made. (How many times have you seen a shrinkwrap agreement that breaking the seal on the outside of the box indicates your acceptance of the terms enclosed inside the box? Oops, you don't want to be bound by their terms, but you cannot return the software as the seal has been broken..)

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There Is A Right To Unprotected Product

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 02:02 AM
The Constitution says that copyright only lasts a limited time. So creators only have a right to their product for a while. And society can use the product after that period so that society can benefit.

When copyright expires, how do we use a technically locked product? Doesn't the Constitution require that it be available to society?

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Re:There Is A Right To Unprotected Product

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 04:06 AM
That is a wonderful point. Yes, illegal use of content should be stopped while under copyright protection, but once that protection expires (as it rightly should at some point) the DRM schemes would legally become invalid.

This is another reason why DRM, as it is now, is a bad idea.

Michael

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DMCA is toothless without the Bono Act

Posted by: tepples on July 19, 2002 07:20 AM




The DMCA provides a circumvention ban (<A HREF="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1201.html">17 USC §1201</a cornell.edu>) that applies to "a work protected under this title." Works first published before <A HREF="http://everything2.com/?node=sonny+bono+copyright+extension+act">January 1, 1923</a everything2.com>, are no longer "protected under this title", and if even one DVD of a public-domain silent movie is released, then DeCSS has a substantial non-infringing use.

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Re:There Is A Right To Unprotected Product

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 20, 2002 09:15 AM
This question was good, about what happens after copyright expiration. Both the copyright and the expirations are explicitly accommodated in the US Constitution. I've been wondering about the 1930s movies and all.

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Re:There Is A Right To Unprotected Product

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 30, 2002 08:58 AM
Which article or ammendment to the constitution created the copyright? I can't find my copy of the constitution to verify this item, but I don't remember reading it at all. Further, until the late 1800's all written and artistic expression was classed as public domain since there was no copyright regulation. In fact marks of quotation were considered to be distracting artifacts, and giving credit to other authors bad manners and wasted space.

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The source for Constitutional copyright authority

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 14, 2002 01:07 PM
is Article I, Section 8. It allows Congress to grant "exclusive Rights" -- but only for "limited Times" and for a public purpose of ("promoting the progress of the Sciences and useful Arts"). Patents and copyrights are two different applications of this section.

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if there serious

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 05:38 PM
if these music and film companies are really serious about not wanting you to copy their material, then why do they sell blank media and devices with which tocopy?
They sell Mp3 players, cassette decks into Hi-Fis, DVD recorders even video and dvd recorder/players in the same unit!
If they are saying " If you copy our Material then your going to jail" then they too should be sentenced accordingly for giving us the equipment in the first place. They are just as guilty.

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Re:if there serious

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 09:31 PM
It isn't the same companies that produces content that produces blank media.

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Re:if there serious

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 12:56 AM
What about Sony? They produce content (music, movies), media (audio cassettes, videotapes, blank CD's, etc.) and devices that allow copying of content (VCR's, CD-R/RW drives, etc.).

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Re:if there serious

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:07 AM
The simpel answer is: THEY DON'T!!!!!!

When was the last time that you saw a Disney DVD player or an SKG Dreamworks blank CD_R???

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Re:if there serious

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 05:57 PM
Erm Sony.
Sony are one of the big players inDRM and they do produce MP3 players, recordable Minidisc players (portable i may add so your friends can listen) CDR/DVDR ETC, ETC. Sony also has released linux for the playstation 2.
i know that not all film/media companies release these devices, but they also help the other hardware manufacturers in the development of these machines.

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What is copyright

Posted by: jens guld on July 18, 2002 08:16 PM
In these discussions no one seems to discuss copyright as such. What is it, what does it do and why.
You can profitably read two speeches Macaulay made in the house of commons 150 years ago. He covers all the bases and he did it 150 years before the Internet.
http://www.baen.com/library/
click on Prime Palaver

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Re:What is copyright

Posted by: jens guld on July 18, 2002 08:34 PM
While I am at it. Has anyone ever proved that artists lose when they are illegally copied?
Somebody (an author) has actually done his homework. See:

http://www.baen.com/library/
Go to Prime Palaver
and click "Prime Palaver#6".

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Re:What is copyright

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 09:45 PM
The differens between today and...say...500 years ago is that today there is an enourmous amount of content produced while back then there was perhaps a couple of individuals producing music and literature (for example) at one certain time.

People allways brings up mozart and platon as supposed reasons why copyright isn't needed. It would be as the last century we had elvis, this century we have britney spears, nothing else. One TV show a week.

There is a reason we have the enourmous emount of content on TV, radio, computers and so on, and thats because there is a legal framework that makes it possible to finance it.

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Re:What is copyright

Posted by: jens guld on July 18, 2002 10:32 PM
500 years ago artists were rewarded by noble or royal patrons or they passed the hat around. In the 18th century patrons became less necessary because a mass market for books and prints was created. Copyright was created as a means of ensuring that artists had an income and that that income did not come from patrons.
We now live in an age where everything can be copied and therefore is. How can artists get an income in this new brave world? Forget about cops and copy protection.
Macaulay spells out the case for and against copyright.
The science fiction publisher Baen Books is about the only place on the net where they do any thinking about ways and means. OK, you can also visit Janis Ian (www.janisian.com).

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Re:What is copyright

Posted by: jens guld on July 18, 2002 10:16 PM
While I am at it. Has anyone ever proved that illegal copying cuts into the artists' income?
One artist (OK, he is an author) has actually done his homework and presents the results in tabular form at
www.baen.com/library
Click on Prime Palaver and then on Prime Palaver#6.

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Link to Declan McCullagh photos from event

Posted by: Serge Wroclawski on July 18, 2002 08:36 PM
Here is a link to pictures from the event
<A HREF="http://www.politechbot.com/p-03770.html">http://www.politechbot.com/p-03770.html</a politechbot.com>

- Serge Wroclawski

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Sharing isn't fair use.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 09:41 PM
Everyone knows that almost everything "shared" on P2P networks are copyrighted material, what the point in pretending it isn't so?

I'm sure MPAA and RIAA doesn't have a problem with people sending out movies and music they have done themselfs.

"Sharing" isn't fair use, copying for personal use is, but since almost all people today don't give a damn about the content-authors rights fair use simply doesn't works anymore.

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use.

Posted by: schmidm77 on July 18, 2002 09:58 PM
Actually, fair use is an important principle. Without it, it might even be deemed illegal to mention the terms "Microsoft" or "AOL" on a public forum such as this becuase they are trademarks. Also, what about instructors who use screenshots of applications in order to create teaching material? This is also allowed because of the fair use part of the laws.

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 04:37 AM
I agree that fair use is important, I just stated that fair use is not what P2P networks are used for today.

It would really be better to have the police simply arrest and then prosecute people who are _actually_ commiting crimes and let (the very few) who use P2P networks for non-criminal purposes to continue to do so.

However, we are talking lots of cops to enforce the law in this case so it will be quite expensive for the taxpayers. It's still the best solution.

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use. Actually, it is

Posted by: Grant Gross on July 18, 2002 10:33 PM
Not exactly true. Some sharing is fair use. If I make a copy of a CD and give it to a friend, that's fair use. Even the record company reps at the workshop Wednesday didn't argue that point.

So what we're talking about here is a matter of degree. If I share that CD with three friends, that's probably fair use. If I share it with 30 friends through an online file-sharing services, apparently, that's not fair use.

Grant

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use. Actually, it is

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 10:42 PM
Great, I'll never have to buy CDs aver again. I'll just get all my friends to burn me a copy, woohoo!

Give me a break.

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use. Actually, it is

Posted by: Grant Gross on July 18, 2002 10:45 PM
That explaination of fair use actually came from one of the record company people, if I remember right. Even the record companies acknowledge that small-scale sharing isn't "stealing."

Grant

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use. Actually, it is

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 11:00 PM
If this is all just a matter of scale. At what point then, does giving copies of music to those who haven't paid for them become stealing?

You cannot give a rational answer to that because no such point exists. When dealing with "right" and "wrong", there is no difference between giving to 1 person or a 1000.

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use. Actually, it is

Posted by: Grant Gross on July 18, 2002 11:07 PM
You say:

"At what point then, does giving copies of music to those who haven't paid for them become stealing? You cannot give a rational answer to that because no such point exists."

I think you've come upon the heart of the problem. Big Hollywood can't figure out how to restrict the sharing of 1,000 copies without also restricting the sharing of one copy. So the result is Big Hollywood would rather take away your fair use rights to share one copy than to figure out a better way of doing business.

Grant

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use. Actually, it is

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 04:39 AM
Everyone with a little bit of reasonable thinking regognise that if one person buys the newest eminem CD and then "shares" it with one million people isn't using their fair use.

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Re:Sharing isn't fair use. Actually, it is

Posted by: fitzix on July 19, 2002 11:31 AM
It's never stealing because theft requires deprivation of the item being stolen.

Legally, you can only "steal" a copyrighted material by stealing the media it's held on from the original buyer, thus depriving them of use.

Copying will never be theft, legally speaking.

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Hollywood accounting

Posted by: Joe Barr on July 18, 2002 09:47 PM
You think Enron and WorldCom were bad? They were innocents, like Boy Scouts getting their first merit badge in fraud, compared to Hollywood's accounting.

Now they are stealing fair use. Enough is enough.

See ya,
Joe Barr

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Act now or they will win soon

Posted by: lotrfan on July 18, 2002 10:23 PM
I've read the post about the free market doing its magic to ban the offenders that offer nothing to you. But the case here is that they will ENFORCE you to do it. Why they need a legislation then? Do you really think it's a free market move?

Wake up you all! I really love when americans (in particular, but the big countries in general) talk about the virtues of free market, like we "in development" countries (Brazil, for example - I live here) have to lower all the market barriers to other countries and these other countries raise all the possible barriers to our products. If it's free market, what is protectionism then?

It was just an example of how free market only work if they cannot influentiate the government. If the free market can artificially put a barrier on innovation or force us to keep their status quo using the same laws that need to regulate the free market, than you have NO free market. If the stablished guys need to compete with new ones cause the new ones have a better technology, cheers to the new guys!

The big guys of today want to milk us our money but don't want to invest in getting better cause they have to reason to do it. The reason comes in the form of competition. But the same guys that say they are the free market wants the state to protect them from competition in the same way the communist countries tried to protect their internal market. Choose your model, work by it but then, suffer for it. You can't say "do what I say, not what I do".

Some words on this topic: good luck to us all! We will really need it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

Flavio

 

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Re:Act now or they will win soon

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 02:41 AM
I'm a USA citizen and I agree with you 100%. Fact is, most "free market" ppl are really just pretending to pro "free market". In reality it's "free market" when convenient and "GOVERNMENT, PLEASE MAKE MY BUSINESS A LEGAL MONOPOLY" at all other times. The best way to describe what happens in USA is a big free for all. People are free to buy politicians. The people with the most money and power are free to exert their influence in any way, including unfair ways or ways that are detrimental to public.

The subtle thing here is that "Free Market" doesn't exist without *some* regulations, because "Free Market" is not a free far all. So because of this gray area, obviously all parties try to push the line from their point of view. However, people with the most money end up being much better "pushers" because they have large amounts of power focused in one place where the public needs to act together to match such power. What are the chances of many ppl acting together? Only when things get *really bad* does that happen. That means that general public is destined to live a borderline miserable life. That's how it works. Some people are in dire straits, most people are doing so-so (being pushed around, their life sucks in material ways, but at least they have family, friends, food, roof over their head) while there are relatively few who have exceptionally good life, from a material point of view (but we all know they have problems with friends and can't get laid, right? *not*). What sucks is that someone with 40 billion $$$ does not make a thousand times more effort to achieve it than someone with 40 million. So, the rewards are not proportional with personal efforts. The extreme case is inheritance: no effort at all. People don't mind when someone works hard and gets rewards. But people DO MIND when the rewards are disproportionate. If you want an example, just login to any online game and see how much bitching goes on about rewards being out of proportion with effort (the very essence of game balance, together with equality at the start of the game: all level 1's are the same).

In an ideal society, the more power you have the more responsibility should fall on your shoulders. If this were true, it would offset some (or all) of the negative effects of the disproportionate rewards. Not so in any country that I know of. A person with 1 dollar to their name has the same social obligations as the person with 40 billion dollars. But that's not how it should be, imo. That is the root problem.

Every time the general public has improved its quality of life was through struggle. The powerful don't give up their positions willingly. Just look back at history and show me one example where the king stepped down volunterily (without there being a threat that if he does not, he might be killed or overthrown).

Hollywood is the king of media in USA. That doesn't mean they make the best media. It means they have the most money and influence. They're going to use their power. They're not going to stop just because a thousand people ask politely or try to debate it in a room. If the public is serious about getting itself heard, it needs to get ready to exert an equal amount of power to Hollywood.

I am a cynic, so I think eventually we will live in an Orwellian future.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:( DRM is definitely a step forward toward that dark future. We already have happy pills, so we are already half way there. I'll do my best to avoid such a future, but in the back of my mind I can't help thinking that the cards are stacked against us (ppl below some $$$ a year mark). The only thing that can help is organization, but people only organize when the situation is desperate.

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Voluntary abdication of the throne

Posted by: tepples on July 19, 2002 07:13 AM


Just look back at history and show me one example where the king stepped down volunterily (without there being a threat that if he does not, he might be killed or overthrown).


After President George Washington of the United States of America finished his second four-year term in office, the people wanted to crown him King George I. Instead of accepting a monarchy, he stepped down, establishing a tradition of two terms per President.

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Re:Voluntary abdication of the throne

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 20, 2002 12:04 AM
Nice example, but looks like George Washington was opposed to kings vs. being one.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) If I am to believe some literature, then Buddha was going to be a king too, but he gave up on material pursuits. My point is, a typical king with normal, mortal values, usually remains one.

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Cincinatus

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 21, 2002 03:24 AM
The roman general, Cincinatus (sp?), quit and retired back to his farm rather than accept the imperial sceptre after his successful military campaign.

This by the way, is how Cincinnati got it's name, in honor of George Washington after he won his campaign.

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Public forum?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 18, 2002 10:48 PM
Washingtonpost.com live online with Valenti, 15 minutes.

Lets see if it's censored.

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Just say NO!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 12:05 AM
The only muscle the consumer has is to simply stop buying music and movies. Bankrupt the bastards!

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Re:Just say NO! YES!

Posted by: noshellswill on July 19, 2002 03:58 PM
Send 'em down the chutes? Titsup? That's plenty a' muscle pad're. All ya need. I have not bought a music CD in years: issues of expense and quality - issues of value. If current music purchasers would stop buying for 5 days, then the entire industry would come on bent knee BEGGING forgiveness.
Has that happened, or will it happen NO! So when the sheep come bleating, who's surprised if they are sheared.

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DRM = No Constitution

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:17 AM
If some sanity isn't achieved, within two years the people in mainland china will have more rights on-line than anyone else in the world.

what a juxtaposition. Could it be that communism is more free that facism. We all need to ask that in america considering the big business ties and protectionist practices of the Bush administration. GW has made it very clear that anyone in america who is not rich, is not inline with "right" thinking is worthless.

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Re:DRM = No Constitution

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 04:32 AM
:)

1: In socialism freedom is defined as beeing free from the power owners have over you. Therefore products (including IP), services and resources should not have owners but should be shared freely.

2: In capitalism freedom is defined as freedom to trade your property (including IP) with others.

If you want to share other authors work without paying communism will always be freer, thats the goal with communism.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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artists decide their own fate

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:31 AM
Who is forcing musicians to use record labels? If an artist chooses to sign a contract with a record label, they are puting their future in that company's hands.

However there are few outlets where a musician can truly make a decent living these days. Why? Because the music industry has a marketing monopoly and can get to the consumer first through TV, malls, billboards etc. So basically they pick who becomes a star, and who doesn't.

The music industry has a hidden agenda. They are not fighting the battle against copying because they are losing money. People have been burning CDs for years, and they still make billions of dollars. What the music industry doesn't want is for a new market to evolve where artists can sell direct to consumers, and get cut out of the loop.

High tech equipment used to create music, which used to costs tens of thousands of dollars, now costs only hundreds of dollars and can all be done on your PC. This is the start of the new evolution of music where artists can create music on their own without the need for thousands of dollars of start-up costs, and access to big producers etc. Good musicians will come out of the woodwork, not be molded. This is what is scaring the shit out of the music industry.

The open source movement is so huge, it has the potential to churn out a new technology that will blow people's minds, with almost no notice. Big business doesn't like surprises.

Once a new medium for being heard evolves, and artists realize they no longer must use the current system, they may slowly stop selling their soul to big business.

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Re:artists decide their own fate

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 02:04 AM
The only things that I see artists depending on studios for is exposure and capital. Studios have the means for get out lots of publicity for a new artist as well as the money to fund tours and such.

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Re:artists decide their own fate

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 04:27 AM
"The music industry has a hidden agenda. They are not fighting the battle against copying because they are losing money. People have been burning CDs for years, and they still make billions of dollars. "

I suggest you take a look at the reports they have filed the last couple of years then, most record labels are loosing money. Thats not the same thing as making billions.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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Re:artists decide their own fate

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 10:33 AM
Don't be naive. I'm sure if you took a gander at the executives of the record labels tax returns you will find they are making out fine.

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Yes! We have no promotion!

Posted by: tepples on July 19, 2002 07:16 AM


Who is forcing musicians to use record labels?


<A HREF="http://www.clearchannel.com/">Clear Channel Communications, Inc., NYSE: CCU</a clearchannel.com>.


Since Clear Channel began to acquire hundreds of radio stations across the United States, the cost of getting a recording onto the airwaves has skyrocketed. Paying Clear Channel('s "independent" promoter) is the only way to get your recordings heard inside moving automobiles in the USA because most people still neither 1. own MP3 car stereos, nor 2. have the broadband to take a chance on an MP3.com band that they've never heard of.


This is the start of the new evolution of music where artists can create music on their own


Not with <A HREF="http://everything2.com/?node=sonny+bono+copyright+extension+act">nearly perpetual copyright</a everything2.com>. The available melodies in the Western musical scale are <A HREF="http://everything2.com/?node_id=1029506">limited in number</a everything2.com>. Eventually, songwriters <A HREF="http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200011/0671319744___1.htm">will run out</a baen.com> of original melodies.


Once a new medium for being heard evolves


The CBDTPA isn't about stopping piracy. It's about preventing such a medium from evolving.

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Pointless

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:45 AM
I don't get it. People are arguing that I can't share my CDs or DVD's or VHS tapes with a friead. They are saying... "you bought it... you paid for it, but you can't let other people see it." If that is the case, how are they going to regulate CD's in libraries? Is that not "sharing"?

Going beyond that, if I make a recording of a cd and share that instead (wouldn't want to damage the original). Why is that a problem?

Going beyond that, sharing the disk in a P2P network is only a matter of degree... but even sharing the original disk is against the law!

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Re:Pointless

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 01:50 AM
The government can't even enforce the speed limit (where people's lives are at stake). How are they going to enforce this?

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Re:Pointless

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 03:02 AM
Correction. They can't enforce it 100% and they wouldn't want to. But they enforce it 90% and very profitably so. If cars got a speed limiter built-in, then a very important revenue source would dry up. Think of it as a speed tax. Wanna go faster? Pay more. That's how they enforce it and it works: most people don't exceed the speed limit by over 10-15 mph. (but almost everyone exceeds it by at least 5 mph)

DRM is the speed limiter. Hopefully Hollywood won't get their wish with DRM. But if they can't get DRM, then the next step is P2P cops handing out tickets for music sharing "speeding violations." Since a music sharing violation is not life threatening, hopefully they won't have a "12 points and your computer license is suspended" program.

Heck, us little sheep will have to settle with whatever big Hollywood brother gives us, right?

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Some Points I'd Like to Make

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 19, 2002 03:32 AM
Musicians should earn their money like everyone else in the world and work for it by going on tour. Not by selling CDs or MP3s through some record company which owns your intellectual property. Musicians need to learn that the music they create is their own, and they should not sell their rights to their music over to a record company to begin with.

Secondly, it is my opinion that there is nothing illegal about sharing music. The record companies tried the very same thing back when tapes were invented. It is just their selfish greed. The fact of the matter is that there is hardly any reason for a musician to sign up for a major record label these days. Thanks to computers, a musician can edit and record their own music for very little investment, and distribute that music world wide without any cost. And ofcourse you make your money by going on tour and working like the rest of us do.

So the record labels realize their usefullness in this world is no longer needed so they try to remove our freedoms to protect themselves by creating "Anti-mamal Dinosaur Protection Acts" to try and save their skins and keep the money rolling in. And BTW, have any of you actually checked to see how much money these companies are taking in? In today's economy their are doing better than most other companies have done in the past couple of years! Think about that....

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Still have to pay songwriters and Clear Channel

Posted by: tepples on July 19, 2002 09:51 AM