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Can you trust your computer?

By JT Smith on October 21, 2002 (8:00:00 AM)

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-By Richard Stallman -
Who should your computer take its orders from? Most people think their computers should obey them, not obey someone else. With a plan they call "trusted computing," large media corporations (including the movie companies and record companies), together with computer companies such as Microsoft and Intel, are planning to make your computer obey them instead of you. Proprietary programs have included malicious features before, but this plan would make it universal.

Proprietary software means, fundamentally, that you don't control what it does; you can't study the source code, or change it. It's not surprising that clever businessmen find ways to use their control to put you at a disadvantage. Microsoft has done this several times: one version of Windows was designed to report to Microsoft all the software on your hard disk; a recent "security" upgrade in Windows Media Player required users to agree to new restrictions. But Microsoft is not alone: the KaZaa music-sharing software is designed so that KaZaa's business partner can rent out the use of your computer to their clients. These malicious features are often secret, but even once you know about them it is hard to remove them, since you don't have the source code.

In the past, these were isolated incidents. "Trusted computing" would make it pervasive. "Treacherous computing" is a more appropriate name, because the plan is designed to make sure your computer will systematically disobey you. In fact, it is designed to stop your computer from functioning as a general-purpose computer. Every operation may require explicit permission.

The technical idea underlying treacherous computing is that the computer includes a digital encryption and signature device, and the keys are kept secret from you. (Microsoft's version of this is called "palladium.") Proprietary programs will use this device to control which other programs you can run, which documents or data you can access, and what programs you can pass them to. These programs will continually download new authorization rules through the Internet, and impose those rules automatically on your work. If you don't allow your computer to obtain the new rules periodically from the Internet, some capabilities will automatically cease to function.

Of course, Hollywood and the record companies plan to use treacherous computing for "DRM" (Digital Restrictions Management), so that downloaded videos and music can be played only on one specified computer. Sharing will be entirely impossible, at least using the authorized files that you would get from those companies. You, the public, ought to have both the freedom and the ability to share these things. (I expect that someone will find a way to produce unencrypted versions, and to upload and share them, so DRM will not entirely succeed, but that is no excuse for the system.)

Making sharing impossible is bad enough, but it gets worse. There are plans to use the same facility for email and documents -- resulting in email that disappears in two weeks, or documents that can only be read on the computers in one company.

Imagine if you get an email from your boss telling you to do something that you think is risky; a month later, when it backfires, you can't use the email to show that the decision was not yours. "Getting it in writing" doesn't protect you when the order is written in disappearing ink.

Imagine if you get an email from your boss stating a policy that is illegal or morally outrageous, such as to shred your company's audit documents, or to allow a dangerous threat to your country to move forward unchecked. Today you can send this to a reporter and expose the activity. With treacherous computing, the reporter won't be able to read the document; her computer will refuse to obey her. Treacherous computing becomes a paradise for corruption.

Word processors such as Microsoft Word could use treacherous computing when they save your documents, to make sure no competing word processors can read them. Today we must figure out the secrets of Word format by laborious experiments in order to make free word processors read Word documents. If Word encrypts documents using treacherous computing when saving them, the free software community won't have a chance of developing software to read them -- and if we could, such programs might even be forbidden by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

Programs that use treacherous computing will continually download new authorization rules through the Internet, and impose those rules automatically on your work. If Microsoft, or the U.S. government, does not like what you said in a document you wrote, they could post new instructions telling all computers to refuse to let anyone read that document. Each computer would obey when it downloads the new instructions. Your writing would be subject to 1984-style retroactive erasure. You might be unable to read it yourself.

You might think you can find out what nasty things a treacherous computing application does, study how painful they are, and decide whether to accept them. It would be short-sighted and foolish to accept, but the point is that the deal you think you are making won't stand still. Once you come depend on using the program, you are hooked and they know it; then they can change the deal. Some applications will automatically download upgrades that will do something different -- and they won't give you a choice about whether to upgrade.

Today you can avoid being restricted by proprietary software by not using it. If you run GNU/Linux or another free operating system, and if you avoid installing proprietary applications on it, then you are in charge of what your computer does. If a free program has a malicious feature, other developers in the community will take it out, and you can use the corrected version. You can also run free application programs and tools on non-free operating systems; this falls short of fully giving you freedom, but many users do it.

Treacherous computing puts the existence of free operating systems and free applications at risk, because you may not be able to run them at all. Some versions of treacherous computing would require the operating system to be specifically authorized by a particular company. Free operating systems could not be installed. Some versions of treacherous computing would require every program to be specifically authorized by the operating system developer. You could not run free applications on such a system. If you did figure out how, and told someone, that could be a crime.

There are proposals already for U.S. laws that would require all computers to support treacherous computing, and to prohibit connecting old computers to the Internet. The CBDTPA (we call it the Consume But Don't Try Programming Act) is one of them. But even if they don't legally force you to switch to treacherous computing, the pressure to accept it may be enormous. Today people often use Word format for communication, although this causes several sorts of problems (see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html). If only a treacherous computing machine can read the latest Word documents, many people will switch to it, if they view the situation only in terms of individual action (take it or leave it). To oppose treacherous computing, we must join together and confront the situation as a collective choice.

For further information about treacherous computing, see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html.

To block treacherous computing will require large numbers of citizens to organize. We need your help! The Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.eff.org) and Public Knowledge (www.publicknowledge.org) are campaigning against treacherous computing, and so is the FSF-sponsored Digital Speech Project (www.digitalspeech.org). Please visit these Web sites so you can sign up to support their work.

You can also help by writing to the public affairs offices of Intel, IBM, HP/Compaq, or anyone you have bought a computer from, explaining that you don't want to be pressured to buy "trusted" computing systems so you don't want them to produce any. This can bring consumer power to bear. If you do this on your own, please send copies of your letters to the organizations above.

Postscripts:

1. The GNU Project distributes the GNU Privacy Guard, a program that implements public-key encryption and digital signatures, which you can use to send secure and private email. It is useful to explore how GPG differs from treacherous computing, and see what makes one helpful and the other so dangerous.

When someone uses GPG to send you an encrypted document, and you use GPG to decode it, the result is an unencrypted document that you can read, forward, copy, and even re-encrypt to send it securely to someone else. A treacherous computing application would let you read the words on the screen, but would not let you produce an unencrypted document that you could use in other ways. GPG, a free software package, makes security features available to the users; they use it. Treacherous computing is designed to impose restrictions on the users; it uses them.

2. Microsoft presents Palladium as a security measure, and claims that it will protect against viruses, but this claim is evidently false. A presentation by Microsoft Research in October 2002 stated that one of the specifications of Palladium is that existing operating systems and applications will continue to run; therefore, viruses will continue to be able to do all the things that they can do today.

When Microsoft speaks of "security" in connection with Palladium, they do not mean what we normally mean by that word: protecting your machine from things you do not want. They mean protecting your copies of data on your machine from access by you in ways others do not want. A slide in the presentation listed several types of secrets Palladium could be used to keep, including "third party secrets" and "user secrets" -- but it put "user secrets" in quotation marks, recognizing that this is not what Palladium is really designed for.

The presentation made frequent use of other terms that we frequently associate with the context of security, such as "attack," "malicious code," "spoofing," as well as "trusted." None of them means what it normally means. "Attack" doesn't mean someone trying to hurt you, it means you trying to copy music. "Malicious code" means code installed by you to do what someone else doesn't want your machine to do. "Spoofing" doesn't mean someone fooling you, it means you fooling Palladium. And so on.

3. A previous statement by the Palladium developers stated the basic premise that whoever developed or collected information should have total control of how you use it. This would represent a revolutionary overturn of past ideas of ethics and of the legal system, and create an unprecedented system of control. The specific problems of these systems are no accident; they result from the basic goal. It is the goal we must reject.

Copyright 2002 Richard Stallman
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted without royalty in any medium provided this notice is preserved.

Editor's note: This article first appeared in Richard Stallman's new book, "Free Software, Free Society." This is the first time the article has appeared online, and Stallman has added some new material.

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on Can you trust your computer?

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Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 12:50 AM
It allmost seems unreal that we seem to be moveing into the BIG BROTHER PHASE in America. It saddens me to watch this if not olny for the fact that it will lead to drastic measures to regain FREEDOM.

                  WAR ANYONE?? NO GIVE THEM CAKE.
What ever happened to Inocient till proven guilty.
Also couldent this view on law be used for guns also.

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You have already been found guilty...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:23 AM
... of being unable to spell!!! ha ha ha!

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Re:Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:54 AM
It saddens me to watch this if not...

Then don't watch...do something about it!

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Re:Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 05:30 AM
guns are bad, you dodo!

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Re:Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 07:01 AM
cliches, and simple minds that listen to Socialist slogans, are worse.

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Kudos to RMS!

Posted by: HarryLeBlanc on October 22, 2002 12:52 AM
This is incisive analysis of "trusted" computing, and of free software's importance to free speech. Many people knock RMS for extreme positions, but I for one salute him for steadfast principles. Whether we like it or not, computing is politics and economics, not just science and technology. The computer industry's slide down that slippery slope is accelerating, and will only get harder to stop if we keep doing and saying nothing. I only hope that RMS's views can reach readers outside the geek press.

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RMS normal, everyone else is extreme

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 09:17 AM
I consider RMS normal, everyone is extreme.

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Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: kshim5 on October 22, 2002 12:53 AM
From NewsFactor (first seen on OSINT) --
http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/19707.html

Microsoft Beta Software Site Hacked
Microsoft's password-protected beta test site, where software can be tested before it hits the market, has been hacked, forcing Microsoft to
issue new passwords to more than 20,000 members of its developer networks.
New versions of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET, Windows XP and other software were reportedly downloaded without authorization, as were experimental software
programs that have not been made public yet.
Microsoft emphasized that no source code was compromised in the breach and that the stolen software will be problematic to use and copy as a
result.

I wouldnt buy microcrap os if it was on sale for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.5 cents what a bunch of idiots i know some hacker is havind fun with all their latest software right now

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 04:54 AM
you dont know shit.
Im a beta tester and i can tell you for sure it wasnt hacked

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 05:52 AM


I smell the incredibly unmistakable scent of denial.

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 08:18 AM
maybe you posted anonymously becasue you don't want anyone knowing you are a beta tester for m$? i sure wouldn't.

i post anonynously because i am:

a) lazy
b) paranoid
c) ADD

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:39 AM
Hey ass monkey read the article how would you know if the site was not hacked even it was you think microcrap is going to tell you it did ???????<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:{}

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bravo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 12:55 AM
RMS has somewhat of a reputation for being a pedantic extremist, but in this case he appears to have hit the nail on the head and shown just how much of a threat some of the technologies developing today really are. I've found RMS' writings like this are generally very good: check out <A HREF="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html">the right to read</a gnu.org> for another good example.

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Indeed

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:29 PM
Even though I don't share his aversion to proprietary software, I'd echo with agreement his thoughts as they relate to this article. I don't think he exagerates about the significance of having a private and closed entity control and have authority over how you can use your own data.

More than anything, it is this disturbing evolution of Microsoft Windows that makes run for the safety of Linux.

One might also consider the legality of a U.S. company having complete authorization control over the computer systems of, say, France.

I know that I'll support freedom by promoting Linux to those who want alternatives.

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Re:Indeed

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 05:54 AM

This really is the end result of supporting proprietary software, though. It's the fact that proprietary software is even accepted at all that makes it possible for companies to do this.

If Free Software were the expected default, we wouldn't be worrying about Microsoft, the MPAA, and the RIAA.

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Re:bravo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:36 AM
"The Right to Read" is fabulous. when I first read it, back around '97 or so, I thought it was a little extreme, but was willing to allow that political satire often is extreme, deliberately for effect. Still, I thought his point would ahve been stronger if he'd toned it down a little.

I was wrong.

I re-read it about six months ago, and in the light of the DMCA, CBDTPA and TCPA, it no loner seems extreme at all. In fact, it seems eerily prescient.

Practically all the major points in "The Right to Read" are either enacted or pending legislation.

This is a Bad Thing. (But a very good essay!)

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Say Global Programers STRIKE Anyone

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 12:55 AM
You are the people that need to make the stand.

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Re:Say Global Programers STRIKE Anyone

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 02:42 AM
What would such a strike, if it were actually attempted, accomplish? I know that if you asked, say, RMS to go on strike from programming he would just do what he's been doing for years--go on strike from commercial programming.

A "strike" where everybody writes free software would accomplish more.

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brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:18 AM
if ms and its loyal distributors of hardware want to ensure that i stop upgrading my hardware, this is the way to do it. if they want me to start using openoffice.org full time, this is the way to do it. if they want me to start spending more time learning to use my linux box, this is the way to do it. if they want to guarantee that every little cracker baby out there has a singular target, this is the way to do it. and if these self-righteous, unethical career politicians, that for some reason people keep voting for, decide they want to get in on the act...watch out.

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Re:brilliant im with you

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 03:47 AM
Great idea hit them where it hurts the most, in the pockets of course. maybe then they'l realize who ther'e trying to please, microcrap or their costomers.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 04:41 AM
if they want to guarantee that every little cracker baby out there has a singular target, >

can you help me out with what exactly you mean here?

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:59 AM
I'm sure he means that if the cracker kiddies can figure out a Palladium exploit, then everyone's (er, everyone that's running a Palladium-equipped "PC"[not really a PC anymore imho, more like a "CC" {Corporate Computer}] anyway) fucked.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:33 AM
precisely! thank you.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:27 PM
Not really.

Didn't you read the part about old hardware not being permitted to connect to the internet? Or about "untreacherous" software not being allowed access?

The easiest single response is to dismantle Microsoft and the government of the United States.

When you get done with that part, give me a call and I'll fill you in on the rest.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:02 AM
I think eschelon just got your IP address... Men in black will be ariving soon. Don't lie to them, they know what you said about dismantling the US.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:30 AM
well...if it is indeed possible (politically speaking, not technically) to deny old hardware internet access, which i tend to doubt because ISP's would lose 70% of their business overnight, i would be happy to be part of the new network that could pop up within a few weeks.

as for the government...the ranks of those with nothing to lose are growing daily. at the same time there are many with plenty to lose who are becoming more and more disillusioned with the system of corporate government, in which the freedom and rights of the people are usurped by politicians willing to sell them to the highest bidder. when these two groups get together and start to share resources and ideas...well, maybe then i can give you that call.

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GNU will still develop

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:59 AM
If it came to that, free software would continue to develope on its own. And I doubt they can or would block old computers from the internet. They may be able to do that with sequel version of the internet that aren't publicly available yet. But that would just mean that we would use the current internet or we would make NerdNet/GNUNet

All they would do is give more people incentive to develop for Linux.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 28, 2002 09:54 PM
StarOffice and OpenOffice will hopefully be able to replace Office, think about it, if all pc resellers bundled all pc's with openoffice instead of ms, then users would learn that, rather than MS office. this will also make new users automatically more familiar with linux before even hearing of it.

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Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:40 AM
"If Microsoft, or the U.S. government, does not like what you said in a document you wrote, they could post new instructions telling all computers to refuse to let anyone read that document. Each computer would obey when it downloads the new instructions. Your writing would be subject to 1984-style retroactive erasure."

You mean like they do here on newsforge?

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Grant Gross on October 22, 2002 01:55 AM
Huh? Gee, I wish I'd known earlier that we have control over your computer here at NewsForge.

Grant

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:23 AM
Censorship isn't bad in *ALL* cases.

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 07:39 PM
Who is to decide when it's a good case?

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Grant Gross on October 22, 2002 09:35 PM
When you own the server, you get to decide.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

Grant

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:52 AM
>When you own the server, you get to decide.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

So any kiddie that 0wnz this box has full permission to rm -rf /

interesting aproach.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-D

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:29 PM
What Newsforge does on its own computers is up to Newsforge.

What RMS was writing about happens on YOUR computer.

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Moron! Free speech != posting w/e u want on NF

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 07:10 AM
Newsforge is a private business you moron!
Just because you have free speech doesn't mean
NewsForge has to print whatever the hell you
want it to say. God, you are simple-minded
and childish. Graduate from high school ya dope!

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PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:55 AM
Stallman makes some good points. I am worried a little about my next PC (especially if it runs XP or Longhorn), but the action is increasingly turning to embedded devices like TVs, DVD players, and car stereos. Here the insistence on open source isn't as helpful - chances are you won't be able to compile some source and load it into your car stereo, for instance. Service providers for cable and web-based programming likewise can track everything we do. Seems like this is getting more into EFF as opposed to the classic FSF territory for advocacy.

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:22 AM
Where have you been? Oh. Redmond. Have fun spreading you FUD.

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:29 AM
Here's something I disagree with, therefore I'll just label it M$ FUD. Boy, I'm good.

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 03:50 AM
What/who are you talking about? I can't see what Redmond has to do with what the previous poster wrote. Or would a concern be less valid because it came from that part of the U.S. (Perhaps s/he lives there. Oooh, I smell a conspiracy.)

It seems to me the poster you replied to raised a legitimate question that has nothing to do with whatever you are spouting off about. A good deal of "computing" is moving away from the area of the traditional PC, and it seems to me that the questions of control raised in the article are equally valid in this newer arena. I guess I got the sense that all the poster was trying to do was include this arena in the discussion.

Or are you suggesting that RMS is spreading anti-Microsoft (I'm not afraid to spell it out) FUD. If that is the case, go on being a sheep. The intellectual slaughter will come soon enough. Baa. .<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Baa. . .

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 04:16 AM
You are right. But I believe a lot of embedded devices these days are running some form of gnu/linux.
I had to read to find out that Tivo and PS2 have the linux kernel inside. I guess as consumers we have to be more careful at what we buy and who we buy it from. But there will probably always be folks would
take things like the Xbox and install free software on them for us to use. I just hope they do it outside the US so they don't get persecuted.

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Tivo definately...PS2?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:09 AM
Tivo is most definately a Linux distribution. It uses GNU tools and all, it's just not available for download, you get it when you buy the box. PS2 has a Linux distribution that they sell with a $150 add-on kit, could you point me to a URL that says that the PS2 itself runs the linux kernel?? I think you are incorrect.

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Re:Tivo definately...PS2?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:27 AM
<A HREF="http://netbsd.org/Ports/playstation2/">It's got NetBSD in it if you put it there</a netbsd.org>

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Re:Tivo definately...PS2?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:31 AM
<A HREF="http://playstation2-linux.com/">http://playstation2-linux.com/</a playstation2-linux.com>

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Re:That's easy, too...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:45 PM

Don't buy them. This isn't intended as a smartass remark- I'm totally serious. Nothing you've mentioned can be characterized as a necessity, and going without any of them long enough to put the hurt on companies who insist on promoting palladium-laced products certainly won't harm anyone. This is one of many cases where a little self-discipline will be well worth the cost.

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Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 03:43 AM
First of all i will never ever buy micro$oft os i wouldn't take it from any one for free, so the the government can put back doors or microcrap can put back doors in there os until they all go to hell i'll stick with linux what alot of these rusty old farts that are in congress since abe lincoln(some of them might even know abe himself)was president dont understand is that todays generation is 100000 times smarter than they were growing up in some backwoods part of some mountian lodge will take advantage of the same technology that ther'e using to "protect therir" products from piracy will just enable more hackers eaisier access to other computers on the network doesn't anybody at micro crap think ?.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:32 PM
If you are "100000 times smarter", why can't you spell or use punctuation? Do you even know what a "run on" sentence is?

In a battle of wits, you are unarmed.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 12:50 AM
Did i or anyone ask you for your fucking comments?
it's good to know you can read now go back to your english class and be a good bitch.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:51 AM
...
you posted on a public site bad mouthing backwoods individuals while claiming to be smarter than politicians, yet your poor use of grammar and insatiable use of fowl language only demised your own intelligence.

so in a sense, yes, you did ask for them.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 08:04 PM
Good point.
Well said.
Gramatically correct.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and people without one should get one, whether they are right or wrong. But it is a persons ability to convey their opinion that is what is important.

Bot furgive me spealing

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Moron

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:12 AM
Idiot.

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Re:Moron

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:34 AM
It's wise asses like you that make people dont want to use Linux get a life and write your own comment you looser.

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Re:Moron

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 07:54 AM
Learn to spell and punctuate then ! As has been said, this is a public forum. EXPECT comments back; especially if you use foul language, and do not present your views in an easily read format. Lack of punctuation increases the permutations and possible meanings of what you 'write', and detracts from any 'clarity' you originally intended !

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 22, 2002 09:49 PM
Of course if they make it illegal to access the 'net from a non-TCPA computer, you won't be able to post semi-literate garbage like this from your aging Linux box. So truly it is an ill wind that blows nobody good.

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In my country the problem will be worse

Posted by: Anirban Biswas. on October 22, 2002 05:02 AM
The problem is more greate India as a 3 rd World developing country , not only the M$ & other evil companies will be able to spy on the user of their product but they will set very high price for their s/ws & since as a drug adict the user will be so hooked to these softwares that they have to pay for it or have to use pirated one which are often causes problems & pirated software is a greate risk for business organization as M$ can pull them to court.

That is why I use GNU/linux ( also it is a greate OS) & my ( I am a student ) college had these problem earlier & now Linux is every where in my college.

Now also thanks to RMS & also comming to my country some monthes ago , though I missed the seminer as it was in bangalore & I lives in Calcutta.

Anirban Biswas.

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Re:In my country the problem will be worse

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 09:23 AM
Both India and China have switched to Linux as their offical OS in schools and I believe government too.

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Re:In my country the problem will be worse

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 30, 2002 12:24 AM
I am afraid, only China has in a big way supported red flag linux over MS$. The corrupt Indian government is still courting Bill gates. While a few states in India have talked about linux, its nowhere near the measures in China.
In fact, according to syllabi in many state schools, use of a word-processor implies use of MS$ word-processors !! And this country claims to be a "democracy" based on "freedom".

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What is necessary

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 05:05 AM
The most inportant thing IMHO is that governments should mandate that all their documents should be done in open source formats. No one should require a specific proprietary product to be able to access information. This is treachoruos in every way. One reason M$ is dominant is that it is given the platform to be able to.
Reverse engineering should explicitly be allowed. This is very different from copying. At the rate things are moving, it will be illegal to make software that operates in a similar way to other software.
I think consumers must wholly refuse to accept initiatives such as palladium. Vote with your dollars. Don't buy the palladium systems. And I am sure there are alternatives to M$. Many platforms to choose from. Think RISC.
Lastly the Linux community must not kid itself and think that people will just run to Linux if M$ goes ahead with its outrageous plan. We must develop software that is as feature rich as in the proprietary world, even if it means that at times it is less secure and so on. That is the basis of choice. If you want people to use Linux then you should cater for those who might not want to configure their ftp servers in some text file. Cater for everyone.

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I'll switch to paper.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 05:07 AM
If something like that would ever happens,
I'll swicth back to plain paper, and let the no
brain people to use my pc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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Re:I'll switch to paper.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 03:31 AM
that's probably the most intelligent response so far!

kudos!

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Good but not great

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 05:37 AM

"The specific problems of these systems are no accident; they result from the basic goal. It is the goal we must reject."

I think he could have used a copy editor in several places. For example, in the above text what is "the goal". He needs to explicit refer back to "the goal" by either stating "that goal" or explicity restating what is the "goal" of treacherous computing.

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Re:Good but not great

Posted by: Douglas C on October 23, 2002 09:58 PM
Pick, pick, pick.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P

The goal is to take away our freedom to use a computer in the way a computer has become known to be useful - that is what must be rejected.

Privacy for the *licensed by TCPA?* user, the usefulness of a *licensed by TCPA?* computer to the developer and passage for *licensed by TCPA?* content/software *licensed by TCPA?* producers and/or *licensed by TCPA?* distributers will be controlled.

A locked box may be interesting but is useless to me *until the lock is picked*.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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Re:Good but not great

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 01:03 PM
I don't think so. It is quite clear that "the goal" refers to the topic of outsiders controlling your machines. Real English isn't constrained by the crap grammer they teach in 5th grade.

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Re:Good but not great

Posted by: Douglas C on October 25, 2002 02:09 PM
s/grammer/grammar/

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Great- definately not just good

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 29, 2002 02:05 PM
Well, it may not be stated in the article, but it is well known what Microsoft's goal and such is... to "rule the world". I have heard them also quoted wanting to compile the 'largest personal identification database' from the net and all of their sources. This is not hard to see, look at where they are going - software, OS, dialup, broadband, MSN, MSNBC, -- the Internet will be owned by Micro$oft and all the computers on it soon.

I Told You SO
j<A HREF="http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020627.html">
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020627<nobr>.<wbr></nobr> html</a pbs.org>

RMS actually told us so a LONG time AGO
<A HREF="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html">
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html</a gnu.org>

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Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 06:11 AM
RMS makes a good argument here. But the FSF also hides it's goals and tries to play tricks on people, even the ones they support.

To begin with, the name 'Free Software Foundation' is a mockery of the word 'free'. If they really wanted _free_ software they wouldn't impose on the programmers that the source code has to be available in_all_derivative work. To me the BSD-license is the only one that really gives you free software in it's true sense.

Regarding the latter, is <A HREF="http://www.altlinux.ru/pipermail/devel/2001-August/003208.html">a very good article</a altlinux.ru> written by Ulrich Drepper. It describes how RMS tried to force himself into control of glibc.

What I would like RMS to answer is: Do you want "free" software or _free_ software and the free programmers that brings?

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//Christian

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 07:54 AM
"To begin with, the name 'Free Software Foundation' is a mockery of the word 'free'. If they really wanted _free_ software they wouldn't impose on the programmers that the source code has to be available in_all_derivative work. To me the BSD-license is the only one that really gives you free software in it's true sense."

No one is forcing you to use GPL'ed software. Yes, RMS advocates that you do, but he is not forcing you to do so. But if you do use GPL'ed software then you have to abide by its rules.

Freedom does not mean absense of laws . In fact, democratic countries that value freedom also have strong laws to protect that freedom. That is exactly what the FSF aims to do for GPL'ed software.

The objective of the FSF is that free software remain free. That is not the objective of the BSD licence. That doesn't mean one of them is wrong. These are two different views of the world.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Charles Lewis on October 22, 2002 08:44 AM
"If they really wanted _free_ software they wouldn't impose on the programmers that the source code has to be available in_all_derivative work."

WRONG! BSD give you the power to take the gift of my free software away from the community and make it your own. The minute this happens, it is no longer free. GPL ensures that my software will ALWAYS be free. If you don't like it, get your hands off of it, and write your own crap.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Mikkel Elmholdt on October 22, 2002 03:57 PM
BS. BSD-license software will stay free, regardless of what anyone does with it. The code does not disappear just because Big Evil & Co. uses it in their product.

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M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:27 AM
Imagine that Microsoft<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET 2006 ships with Apache webserver, which is available under the BSD license. Microsoft has out-sourced writing the FrontPage modules and such for Apache (as the frontpage module currently sux to implement/use). Microsoft makes the modules closed/proprietary and rewrites parts of apache to work better in Win32 than it currently does, and commences with shipping ApacheM$ with FrontPage and ASP instead of IIS. Although lots of people want/need better FrontPage support in Apache on *nix it never happens and people who need that are forced to buy M$<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET 2006 instead of just running LAMP(Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP). Should M$ be able to do that? IMHO, they shouln't be able to, but the BSD license allows them to.
How's that free?

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Re:M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 10:09 AM
No one is forced to do anything. If MS adds something to Apache that has value to some people, those people can either take it or leave it. If MS adds value, they should be able to set their own terms, as onerous as that may be.

Now if someone buys the MS Apache, and they get shafted in the long run, than they have no one else to blame. But as free thinking persons, they have the choice. Just like MS has the choice to provide affordable software with a sensible license -- or not.

Hell, you can take Apache and code up your own Front Page extensions, just the way you like them. That's what the BSD license is about. Providing something that EVERYONE can use. Completely altruistic. A person who releases software under the BSD WANTS their code to be used EVERYWHERE -- no strings attached. Even if the software gets wrapped up in a closed product, it is still their providing a benefit to its users -- who are saved a little aggravation since at least that part of the software works.

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Re:M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Mikkel Elmholdt on October 25, 2002 06:44 AM
I don't follow your convoluted train of thought. If MS would take Apache (and we're a lot who hope that they do - the Internet would be a lot safer<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:- ) ) and do (good?) stuff to it but keep the changes to themselves, then Apache (the original and unmolested version) is still free for everyone else. The code does not disappear<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....

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Re:M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Mikkel Elmholdt on October 25, 2002 06:47 AM
BTW: What you think MS should or should not be able to do with Apache, is of little relevance. Here's what the Apache people thinks about this issue: "We want to see Apache used very widely -- by large companies, small companies, research institutions, schools, individuals, in the intranet environment, everywhere -- even though this may mean that companies who could afford commercial software, and would pay for it without blinking, might get a "free ride" by using Apache. We would even be happy if some commercial software companies completely dropped their own HTTP server development plans and used Apache as a base, with the proper attributions as described in the LICENSE file."

(quote taken from http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html)

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 09:30 AM
While I disagree with you, you're off topic as well. So please, STFU.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 06:13 PM
How can anyone possibly think that the GPL gives YOU freedom, I fully agree that it give the CODE freedom. But how could anyone possibly argue that the code should be free rather than the programmers?

And perhaps the code isn't free either: Say you program an AI that can improve itself and you have used some GPL'd code in work. The AI after careful consideration decides that it likes the freedom that the BSDL gives you better and it wants to make itself available under that license instead. Well well, no can do because it now has the GPL-virus. So from this point of view not even the code is free.

And by the way, why hasn't anyone mentioned the article by Drepper? It seems to me that letting your software reside under a license that is modified by RMS from time to time is quite insane. If I were you, I sure wouldn't write 'this software is licensed under the latest version of the GPL' into my source code. Who knows what could happen then? (besides RMS, that is)

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//Christian

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Tahir Hashmi on October 22, 2002 08:14 PM
How can anyone possibly think that the GPL gives YOU freedom, I fully agree that it give the CODE freedom

And why does that make you see red? Freedom as used in the society is not _just_ about a person's freedom. It's about a person's freedom to get his/her rights. Think of it this way -- would you like a society that is so free that it allows people to resort to crime at their own discretion? How would it be like, if someone invents a knife to make it easier to process food and someone else uses that knife to resort to anti-social practices?

The primary motive of having GPL was indeed to protect the source code from being locked up in some corporate storage. I fail to understand what's wrong in that.

Think again. Freedom != freedom to do _anything_.

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Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 08:36 PM
Well, if you want to use other people's work, you have to respect the terms imposed on that work by the person who generously made it available, so if it's GPL-licensed then you have to accept that. If you can't accept that, don't use that work.

It's completely childish to complain about being unable to take the products of other people completely on your own terms. I believe the term "freeloader" is the most appropriate description of an individual who behaves in such a fashion.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 09:25 PM
Another term for freeloader is Microsoft.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:11 AM
I agree that if you use a GPL'd product such as Linux, you have to respect the license terms and not whine about it. Stallman, however, wants to go further - he wants the community to boycott *all* proprietary software, even though the Linux EULA explicitly allows application software to be closed source. This is Stallman's ideology, not something present in the Linux license.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:41 AM
I'm not sure where to start here, other than saying that you're ill-informed. Linux was released under the GPL, i think it's funny (not haha funny) that you wrote 'the Linux EULA.' Yes, Stallman has his (what i would consider) skewed vision of nothing proprietary, ever; but it was that vision that gave us the GPL in the first place. He even bent-over and took one for corporate america when he created the LGPL, which allows libs to be incorporated into non-GPL applications. Yes, he would love it if everyone on the planet stopped using/buying proprietary/closed-source software, wouldn't you? IMO proprietary apps should be left to non-critical add-ons, like games. No open source project in the near future will ever compete with UT2003, for example; though I would prefer if the y would open up the engines and just sell the data files as copyrighted/protected material... I digress. In any case, I think you need to do a bit of reading on the subject before spouting inaccuracies and less-than-half-truths.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 03:00 AM
And what are the "less-than-half-truths" that I was "spouting", Professor?

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Quake?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:48 AM
I would consider Quake to be at least as good as UT, and id puts their source out as GPL (all except the most current release). As the user of software, I should get the source code so as to be able to tailor/fix the code as I need. That does not mean they have to give the code out for free. Just that it should be included with the sale (rent in Microsoft's case).

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:25 AM
First, EULA != License.

Second, the Linux kernel is provided under the GNU GPL. Stallman wrote the GNU GPL.

Put two and two together and maybe this time you'll get four. You got three last time. Try again please.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 06:58 AM
fyi - Linus added an addendum to the Linux GPL stating that applications that make use of the kernel solely through regular system calls are not derived works. Read it and weep.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 04:50 AM
If you look at it, on moral grounds, Stealing would be a better term!

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 11:23 PM
>And perhaps the code isn't free either: Say you
>program an AI that can improve itself and you have
>used some GPL'd code in work. The AI after careful
>consideration decides that it likes the freedom >that the BSDL gives you better and it wants to
>make itself available under that license instead.
>Well well, no can do because it now has the
>GPL-virus.

So read the license on the code before using it.
And if you don't want to GPL it, then make sure you
don't use GPLed code.

Would you just click the "I Agree" button on an
online EULA without actually reading it, and then
complain about the EULA's terms later?

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 12:01 AM
How is it freeloading when someone uses my BSD'd code without publishing their code?

Freeloading is when you take something and give nothing back, but when Apple or MS takes BSD code and adds into their propriety software that actually adds to the community in the form of competition.

You don't seriously think that a good GUI design like the one Apple/MS has developed (and KDE/GNOME copied) could have been created without money (in that case; Newsflash: designers and cognition researchers don't work for free).

The fact that Apple can take the BSD code and make an operating system better than FreeBSD is mainly due to money, which wouldn't be available in the open-source community. To the community this kind of a "secondary access to money". Since Apple can hide the code to their GUI but not the GUI itself it is actually a form of contibution.

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//Christian

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 04:46 AM

Freeloading is when you take something and give nothing back, but when Apple or MS takes BSD code and adds into their propriety software that actually adds to the community in the form of competition.


Sure, when Ms takes BSD code and uses into IE, it increases competetion. Yeah right.


You don't seriously think that a good GUI design like the one Apple/MS has developed (and KDE/GNOME copied)


Correction: A Gui design which Xerox created and Apple/Ms copied. Newsflash for you: Most computer science related algorithms and advances have been available to others for free.


The fact that Apple can take the BSD code and make an operating system better than FreeBSD is mainly due to money,


Oh really? You seem to be confusing the Os with the GUI. Get over it, man. KDE/Gnome today are far better than anything Apple/Ms can do. period.


Since Apple can hide the code to their GUI but not the GUI itself it is actually a form of contibution.


Yeah, that neighbhour of yours bought a brand new spanking sports car, and its a form for contribution to the fish in the ocean. Some logic, I must say.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:22 AM
Competition for you that is, of course. Competition is a very good motivator for development. Windows for instance has started to improve now that it gets much more competition from Apple an