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Is Linux ready for mom?
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September 03, 2003 (8:00:00 AM)
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- by Chris Gulker -
The short answer seems to be "no" (unless of course mom happens to have a computer science degree). However, hard work by the KDE and GNOME groups, augmented by contributions from consumer-oriented Linux distros and IT corporations, is beginning to move Linux into reach as a mainstream, non-geek desktop OS. Most user-friendly Linux desktops aren't much harder to master than some Windows versions. It's the small things that tended to trip up non-technical users in my recent non-scientific tests.
The short answer seems to be "no" (unless of course mom happens to have a computer science degree). However, hard work by the KDE and GNOME groups, augmented by contributions from consumer-oriented Linux distros and IT corporations, is beginning to move Linux into reach as a mainstream, non-geek desktop OS. Most user-friendly Linux desktops aren't much harder to master than some Windows versions. It's the small things that tended to trip up non-technical users in my recent non-scientific tests.
For a week, I've been grabbing real-life non-technical people and plunking them down in front of the same Linux box (Ximian desktop on Red Hat 8.0) that I use almost every day. My "victims" have included a 92-year-old retiree, a 28-year-old economics student, a lay minister, and a preschool teacher.
Most of the users had their own login (itself a bit of a novelty), which presented them with a fresh Ximian 1.0 desktop environment. In some cases I just observed as a user sat down to do a quick chore like get Mapquest directions or find movie times.
Preschool teacher Julie Brown is a frequent visitor to our house, where her accidental use of Linux gave me the idea that Linux might be approachable for general users. In her 20s, Julie doesn't think of herself as a technical computer user, though she does use a Windows machine frequently to check email and surf the Web.
Julie often sits down at one of the Macs in our den to do the same, but one afternoon found all the Macs in use. Julie sat down at the Linux machine, saw a browser open, and then navigated to a site to get movie times, no problem and no call to the help desk.
One morning, when I hadn't logged out of my Linux desktop, I noticed that there were some windows open on one of the machine's virtual desktops. A check revealed a browser running with a selection of music and style sites: stepson John Getze, a 28-year-old economics major at the University of San Francisco who normally uses an iMac, had figured out during an evening visit how to use the virtual desktop to keep from disturbing files I had left open on the machine. So its safe to say that the Mozilla browser experience is within reach of people who can use browsers on Windows and Mac OS.
One of the most informative experiences came from Anne Peterson, senior associate at All Saints Church in Pasadena. Anne uses Windows at work and has a Windows 2000 laptop at home, but does not consider herself a power user.
Anne was able to log in, find the Programs menu, and launch and navigate Web sites in Galleon, but wasn't able to complete the email setup Wizard for Evolution. "I would have been on the phone asking you what all the mail settings meant," she said.
One frustration was the slow first-time Galleon launch; with no splash screen or "wait" icon, Anne thought she'd done something wrong and was headed back to the launch menu when a page finally popped up. Another glitch occured when she tried to plan a Club Med vacation and was dropped into a Flash page that just looped black and white blank pages.
Anne did successfully navigate to her church's home page, a site using frames, that displayed properly, if slowly, in the Mozilla-based browser. She also intuitively expanded the browser to full screen and knew how to exit when done.
Ximian Evolution's setup wizard stopped Anne cold at the second screen: while she was able to enter her account information correctly, she wasn't sure what the difference between SMTP and Sendmail was, and had questions about just about every option on the ensuing POP/IMAP/Spool and SMTP setup screens.
With the help of a "support call" (to me) she did set up Evolution and was able to navigate the app with a little help, add appointments and tasks and check her email, and could switch back and forth between Evolution and Galleon.
OpenOffice was different: while she could find and launch the app with only a hint that it was under the Office item in the Programs menu, she had difficulty using the formatting pallette -- "I need the manual for this." She was able to save her document, but finding it again was a bit more difficult. When she ventured into the Evolution folder in her home directory, she became a bit lost: "What is 'cache' for?"
Ximian attempts to shield users from most of the file system by putting only Home and My Computer icons on the desktop, but application prefs files in the home directory proved to be confusing. Mac OS X, for example, hides these, along with most of the /bin, /usr/, and other similar directories in a /private directory that requires knowledge to access.
Asked if she would buy a Linux machine if it were, say, $500 cheaper than a Windows/MS Office machine she said, "Maybe, but then again I might just spend the extra money to make sure it worked like what I'm used to."
Another telling experience came when I asked father-in-law John Hubbard to take the test. John is 92; at age 89 he decided to learn to use a computer and has for three years been using a Mac (with Mac OS 9.2) to stay in touch with buddies and relatives all over the world via email and Web pages.
John was initially almost completely unable to use the default Ximian desktop. John suffers from cataracts and other complications which means he needs large on-screen icons and fonts. A condition with his hands makes it difficult to use a mouse, and the three-button mouse on the Linux box was particularly vexing after the Mac's one button.
With a little screen res juggling, we were able to get John into the Galleon browser, and he successfully navigated to a San Francisco Giants Web page, which unfortunately broke rather badly in the Galleon display. Galleon also put up a "helpful" alert box saying that it had crashed the last time it was run, and the choices to "restore session" et al. left John unsure how to proceed.
John did like the dictionary.com and Google windows on Galleon's bookmarks bar. And I was heartened to find that most of the tools I had needed to set up John's home Mac -- blowing up the screen to 640 x 480, setting large icons and fonts, and installing a very large cursor -- are already available in the Red Hat 8 distro.
What vexed me was setting the machine back to my normal 1024 x 768 resoluton after John left. The non-resizable screen resolution window opens in 640 x 480 with the Cancel and OK buttons invisible -- the box is bigger than the screen at that res. Since I couldn't remember what the keyboard shortcut might be, it was a frustrating 15 minutes trying to get the machine back to a setup that was easier for me. Screen resolution, it turns out, is not a pref that changes with the user login, as tends to be the case on Windows and Mac machines as well.
Our next experiment will be to try some of the consumer-oriented Linux distros with the same crew: Lindows, Lycoris, and Xandros.
Chris Gulker, a Silicon Valley-based freelance technology writer, has authored more than 130 articles and columns since 1998. He shares an office with seven computers that mostly work, an Australian Shepherd, and a small gray cat with an attitude.
Comments
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Maybe, but then again I might just spend the extra money to make sure it worked like what I'm used to.
Actually that the exact issue that caused WinXP to fail the Dad test. My dad couldn't get a new Wintel box without WinXp, he was used to Win2000 and hasn't liked the changes, especially the sluggishness. This actually prompted him to ask to try KDE (on RH9) on the side. It's been a few months and so far so good.
It looks very much like Linux is will be ready for the desktop a long time before Windows will be ready for the Internet.
"It looks very much like Linux is will be ready for the desktop a long time before Windows will be ready for the Internet."
If only this statement made even the smallest amount of sense, and/or had anything to do with the topic at hand...
If only this statement made even the smallest amount of sense, and/or had anything to do with the topic at hand...
It makes perfect sense to me.
Linux is ready for most desktop users, although it may require a more technical person to install it.
Windows, on the other hand, is NOT ready for the Internet, because, for most people, it is NOT SAFE.
The only people who can safely connect Windows to the Internet are those who have enough technical knowledge to:
- Configure and use a firewall.
- Shut down certain default services.
- Change some default settings (e.g. turn off Outlook preview).
- Install and maintain anti-virus software.
- Avoid clicking on some e-mail.
- And so on.
Linux is ready for most desktop users, although it may require a more technical person to install it.
Windows, on the other hand, is NOT ready for the Internet, because, for most people, it is NOT SAFE.
The only people who can safely connect Windows to the Internet are those who have enough technical knowledge to:
- Configure and use a firewall.
- Shut down certain default services.
- Change some default settings (e.g. turn off Outlook preview).
- Install and maintain anti-virus software.
- Avoid clicking on some e-mail.
- And so on.
Ummmmmm<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... firewall? Who can't dLoad ZONAL, and it's free-as-beer. Anti-Vi ?? Who can't dLoad AVG, and it's free-as-beer. Who needs OutLook ??? Meanwhile, the free version of MailWasher, and page_filter PROXO are about as easy to snag. A secure Windoz system is NOT rocket science. I have had not one ( 1 ) infection in 7 years on the Web daily.
'Course like any prudent person, I air_wall tax data on my RedHat box.
'Course like any prudent person, I air_wall tax data on my RedHat box.
"A secure Windoz system is NOT rocket science."
And MSBlaster, SQL Slammer and others put that to a lie.
When you apologists can get the words and results to match up? Let us know.
And MSBlaster, SQL Slammer and others put that to a lie.
When you apologists can get the words and results to match up? Let us know.
Back to your meds, bytboyz. Find drivers? Edit registry ?? Are you dislexic? In 7 years of daily WinDoz WWW business use -- say nothing of installing various HWare & software -- I have never once had to do either. Surely you mean more than plopping Crescendo into the OPERA plugins file! In my experience, supplied default drivers have ALWAYS worked just fine, and scr*wing with the registry<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... gawd sakes why??? Indeed, a modern *nix like RedHat requires even LESS effort, with the exception of castrated & convoluted multi_media, but why complain ?
If you systematically over_reach and damage your WinDoz system, best indeed you waste time with Slackmolian or Gentoolian *nix varients.
If you systematically over_reach and damage your WinDoz system, best indeed you waste time with Slackmolian or Gentoolian *nix varients.
> Back to your meds, bytboyz. Find drivers? Edit registry ?? Are you dislexic? In 7 years of daily WinDoz WWW business use -- say nothing of installing various HWare & software -- I have never once had to do either.
Then you have been very lucky.
When my girlfriend upgraded to Windows 2000, I helped her install and configure it. It took us three whole days, and we had to go out to the Internet for two drivers, one for her ethernet card (fortunately, I had my laptop), and one for her combo-printer-scanner.
I then installed dual-boot Linux on the same machine, and it took me 90 minutes.
In another case, my sister recently bought a new Windows XP PC. When she tried to install her Panasonic printer, it insisted on going out to the Net for a driver (update?). Unfortunately, something went wrong, and the driver didn't install, but Microsoft's authorization services thought that it did, or something like that. I don't know the details, but my sister says it took weeks, and hours on the phone, before she finally managed to get her printer working.
In my own case, the thing that got me started on Linux in the first place, was when I bought two scuzzy devices (a scanner, and a CD burner), and I couldn't get them both working under Windows. I could get one or the other working, but not both together. I kept trying on and off for months, looking for new drivers, calling support lines, and searching the Net for patches and help. But, try as I might, I couldn't get them both working. One day I was talking to my friend about the problem, and he suggested (again) that I try Linux. So he came over to my house, and, within a couple of hours, we had Linux up and running, and all the hardware was working, including both scuzzy devices! That machine has run Linux ever since.
I also have an old HP PC which has a very old motherboard. There are no BIOS upgrades available for that motherboard, and when I try to run Windows on that PC, I can only see a fraction of the harddrive. But when I run Linux, I can use the whole harddrive with no problems.
The problem with an old version of Windows is that it lacks drivers for newer hardware.
And the problem with a new version of Windows is that it lacks drivers for older hardware.
But I have been able to get Linux working with every piece of PC hardware that I own.
The tables have turned. Linux now has better hardware support than Windows. The only exceptions are in a few areas where Microsoft and certain hardware makers have conspired to keep the APIs a secret.
Then you have been very lucky.
When my girlfriend upgraded to Windows 2000, I helped her install and configure it. It took us three whole days, and we had to go out to the Internet for two drivers, one for her ethernet card (fortunately, I had my laptop), and one for her combo-printer-scanner.
I then installed dual-boot Linux on the same machine, and it took me 90 minutes.
In another case, my sister recently bought a new Windows XP PC. When she tried to install her Panasonic printer, it insisted on going out to the Net for a driver (update?). Unfortunately, something went wrong, and the driver didn't install, but Microsoft's authorization services thought that it did, or something like that. I don't know the details, but my sister says it took weeks, and hours on the phone, before she finally managed to get her printer working.
In my own case, the thing that got me started on Linux in the first place, was when I bought two scuzzy devices (a scanner, and a CD burner), and I couldn't get them both working under Windows. I could get one or the other working, but not both together. I kept trying on and off for months, looking for new drivers, calling support lines, and searching the Net for patches and help. But, try as I might, I couldn't get them both working. One day I was talking to my friend about the problem, and he suggested (again) that I try Linux. So he came over to my house, and, within a couple of hours, we had Linux up and running, and all the hardware was working, including both scuzzy devices! That machine has run Linux ever since.
I also have an old HP PC which has a very old motherboard. There are no BIOS upgrades available for that motherboard, and when I try to run Windows on that PC, I can only see a fraction of the harddrive. But when I run Linux, I can use the whole harddrive with no problems.
The problem with an old version of Windows is that it lacks drivers for newer hardware.
And the problem with a new version of Windows is that it lacks drivers for older hardware.
But I have been able to get Linux working with every piece of PC hardware that I own.
The tables have turned. Linux now has better hardware support than Windows. The only exceptions are in a few areas where Microsoft and certain hardware makers have conspired to keep the APIs a secret.
Linux provides decent replacement for commodity softwares that everyone uses like web browsers, email clients and office tools.
But most of the people I know do other things like video editing, photo, rip and burn CDs etc...
Of course, linux has apps for all that, some really good, some not so good, but no OS will be amazing enough for these guys to throw away the time they've spent learning whatever specialised app they use on windows or Mac and hunt for a replacement and learn it. Sometimes (as it is the case for video editing) there is not much choice and underlying configuration is far from trivial.
So until the best of breed and the cheapest of these apps get ported to Linux, Linux won't be an alternative for most people.
Myself, I installed mozilla on my work XP box because that's what I am used to at home. I miss Kmail and have chosen java as a hobby development language because I can use netbeans and Jbuilder at work and home (linux).
But most of the people I know do other things like video editing, photo, rip and burn CDs etc...
Of course, linux has apps for all that, some really good, some not so good, but no OS will be amazing enough for these guys to throw away the time they've spent learning whatever specialised app they use on windows or Mac and hunt for a replacement and learn it. Sometimes (as it is the case for video editing) there is not much choice and underlying configuration is far from trivial.
So until the best of breed and the cheapest of these apps get ported to Linux, Linux won't be an alternative for most people.
Myself, I installed mozilla on my work XP box because that's what I am used to at home. I miss Kmail and have chosen java as a hobby development language because I can use netbeans and Jbuilder at work and home (linux).
My mom who is also a grandmother of 7 uses Linux because it is easier than Microsoft. I found a window manager that she likes and set up some simple buttons like "browser", "email"; "word processor".
The ability to remove clutter with Linux is enormous.
The resulting setup is much cleaner and easier than I could have done with Micosoft.
The ability to remove clutter with Linux is enormous.
The resulting setup is much cleaner and easier than I could have done with Micosoft.
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 06:21 PM
I am sorry, but what you are describing is an APPLIANCE. **You** (and not her) have manually modified a default linux distro and have transformed it into an appliance, with a clean desktop and a few buttons about common actions.
This is what Internet Appliances were made to be too. But that doesn't make your grandmother an operating system user per se, it just makes her an appliance user, that someone modified for her. The REAL test would have been to give her the DEFAULT RedHat/Madnrake/Suse/Debian/whatever distro and THEN tell us how well she will manage it to do her thing.
Sorry, but your example, while cute, does not hold up here.
It is like saying QNX is easy to use, because my DVD player runs on QNX. Using an appliance with limited choices does not make me a "QNX user" per se.
This is what Internet Appliances were made to be too. But that doesn't make your grandmother an operating system user per se, it just makes her an appliance user, that someone modified for her. The REAL test would have been to give her the DEFAULT RedHat/Madnrake/Suse/Debian/whatever distro and THEN tell us how well she will manage it to do her thing.
Sorry, but your example, while cute, does not hold up here.
It is like saying QNX is easy to use, because my DVD player runs on QNX. Using an appliance with limited choices does not make me a "QNX user" per se.
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 07:14 PM
"But that doesn't make your grandmother an operating system user per se..."
What? So she is supposed to be writing her own shell scripts because that's your definition of Linux user. I suppose you don't demand that Windows users edit the registry on a regular basis to meet your criteria.
Yes, it's a good point - can the average punter use a stock Linux distribution? But then perhaps there really is a market for appliance/kiosk distributions, despite what various experts who claim that "all functions must be exposed to the user" insist.
What? So she is supposed to be writing her own shell scripts because that's your definition of Linux user. I suppose you don't demand that Windows users edit the registry on a regular basis to meet your criteria.
Yes, it's a good point - can the average punter use a stock Linux distribution? But then perhaps there really is a market for appliance/kiosk distributions, despite what various experts who claim that "all functions must be exposed to the user" insist.
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 07:37 PM
You are turning this matter into a way that serves you best without really reading my previous reply.
YES, there is such market for appliances (even if Internet Appliances have failed miserably to penetrate the market 3 years ago), but this is not what we are testing here. Such Appliances can be created with either Windows CE or Linux or whatever else.
**What we really test here is the average successful default Linux distro (e.g. Red Hat or SuSE or Lycoris).** THIS is where your focus should be when replying here! What we test here is granny downloading or buying a stock product off the shelf and use it. And Appliances is completely off topic and irrelevant in the topic here! This is what I tried to explain to the first poster!
YES, there is such market for appliances (even if Internet Appliances have failed miserably to penetrate the market 3 years ago), but this is not what we are testing here. Such Appliances can be created with either Windows CE or Linux or whatever else.
**What we really test here is the average successful default Linux distro (e.g. Red Hat or SuSE or Lycoris).** THIS is where your focus should be when replying here! What we test here is granny downloading or buying a stock product off the shelf and use it. And Appliances is completely off topic and irrelevant in the topic here! This is what I tried to explain to the first poster!
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 09:59 PM
By your definition, a large majority of the non-computer-savvy world uses an appliance. My mom always has her kids come over and make her computer go for her. Same with my dad, grandma, etc. They don't know how to set up their email, let alone customize the OS.
1. Are you the author of the article at the top of this thread? If so, you should probably post under the same name rather than "Anonymous Reader" so the rest of us can be aware of that fact. If not, what gives you the privilege of determining what is "off topic?" The guy's post seems on topic to me; should we have a vote to decide?
2. My Dad, in his early 80s, has had computers since the mid-1970s. Though he had to assemble the first ones and install the OS, he hasn't done that since he got his Atari 1040 when it was a ground-breaking new product. Very few people that I know install operating systems or customize them past the odd desktop shortcut. They just _use_ them as whatever category of product you care to call them.
3. If you work with PCs, you've almost certainly gotten _numerous_ calls from Windows users with this problem or that crisis, so the charge that the poster, not his mom, set up the PC also applies to a large number of Windows users. Is Windows "ready for the destop?" By your standards, probably not; those same users would probably disagree.
4. Why test "granny downloading or buying a stock product off the shelf" and using it? Does the average Windows user download or buy Windows as a "stock item?" No; the vast majority of PCs taking up landfill space still have their original vendor installed OS on them. Why must Linux "win" the installation event when the other competitor doesn't show up for the contest?
2. My Dad, in his early 80s, has had computers since the mid-1970s. Though he had to assemble the first ones and install the OS, he hasn't done that since he got his Atari 1040 when it was a ground-breaking new product. Very few people that I know install operating systems or customize them past the odd desktop shortcut. They just _use_ them as whatever category of product you care to call them.
3. If you work with PCs, you've almost certainly gotten _numerous_ calls from Windows users with this problem or that crisis, so the charge that the poster, not his mom, set up the PC also applies to a large number of Windows users. Is Windows "ready for the destop?" By your standards, probably not; those same users would probably disagree.
4. Why test "granny downloading or buying a stock product off the shelf" and using it? Does the average Windows user download or buy Windows as a "stock item?" No; the vast majority of PCs taking up landfill space still have their original vendor installed OS on them. Why must Linux "win" the installation event when the other competitor doesn't show up for the contest?
Repeat after me, pad're<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... ' installation is NOT an issue...' Having recently done some major SW/HW upgrades to both my RedHat & WinME boxes there's no doubt *nix makes that job easier.
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 08:01 PM
You're missing the point, which is "use" not "modify". The poster's mother is using Linux. Using it to browse the Web, send e-mail, and process words. Maybe more, I don't know since I don't know the lady in question.
Remember that not everyone uses a computer in the same way. Most people I know (on Linux, Mac, or Windows) use their boxes for a small number of tasks. And, in many cases, they had to have someone else set the system up for them.
Remember that not everyone uses a computer in the same way. Most people I know (on Linux, Mac, or Windows) use their boxes for a small number of tasks. And, in many cases, they had to have someone else set the system up for them.
I worked about 5 years providing on-site warranty service for most of the tier-1 PC manufacturers. During those years I would say about 80% of the users that I came in contact with were using the PC as what you would refer to as an APPLIANCE. And they were all using windows for simple tasks such as e-mail & web browsing.
It is my preception that this is exactly what the PC manufacturers have marketed these PCs as (an APPLIANCE). I don't believe that this has changed very much either over the last 5 years. All the sub $1000 PCs are pretty much marketed in this way. The PC manufacturers are not interested in how the PC is used,only $. These PCs are marketed to the largest common denominator, and that is the non-technical user.
G'Day!
It is my preception that this is exactly what the PC manufacturers have marketed these PCs as (an APPLIANCE). I don't believe that this has changed very much either over the last 5 years. All the sub $1000 PCs are pretty much marketed in this way. The PC manufacturers are not interested in how the PC is used,only $. These PCs are marketed to the largest common denominator, and that is the non-technical user.
G'Day!
An APPLIANCE is to each, What they need!-Toaster.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 04, 2003 02:49 AM
Well that's true, but as you say it's MARKETED as an appliance, but it's not. If the vendors could give consumers an *appliance*, instead of a *computer* masquerading as an *appliance*. Then both of our lives would have been easier.
I suggest reading Donald A. Norman's book "The Invisible Computer", for more.
I suggest reading Donald A. Norman's book "The Invisible Computer", for more.
For years, Windows supporters claimed that Linux was not ready for the desktop because most people couldn't install and configure it.
Meanwhile, Windows came pre-installed, and pre-configured by the PC seller.
In this case, however, Linux also came prepre-installed, and pre-configured, by the original poster, for his mother.
And you're saying that makes it unfair???
Meanwhile, Windows came pre-installed, and pre-configured by the PC seller.
In this case, however, Linux also came prepre-installed, and pre-configured, by the original poster, for his mother.
And you're saying that makes it unfair???
When my sister bought her PC, it came configured to automatically boot into MS Bob.
And, for the first six months, that's all my sister used. She used the MS Bob functions for storing her names and addresses, her to-do list, and so on. She didn't know how to do anything else until I taught her.
So, according to you, my sister was not really a Windows user, because she was just using her PC as an appliance.
But I have a problem accepting that argument, because I have never heard anyone say, "Linux isn't ready for the desktop, though, I have to admit, Windows isn't really ready either, because lots of people are only able to use their Windows PC as an appliance."
In other words, you can't have it both ways. You have to use the same criteria for judging both Linux and Windows.
Once you do use the same criteria, as far as I can see, Linux and Windows are both equally ready for the desktop. Windows is somewhat ahead in having consistent install procedures, and in available applications (especially games<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-), while Linux is somewhat ahead in stability, security, and pre-installed applications.
And, for the first six months, that's all my sister used. She used the MS Bob functions for storing her names and addresses, her to-do list, and so on. She didn't know how to do anything else until I taught her.
So, according to you, my sister was not really a Windows user, because she was just using her PC as an appliance.
But I have a problem accepting that argument, because I have never heard anyone say, "Linux isn't ready for the desktop, though, I have to admit, Windows isn't really ready either, because lots of people are only able to use their Windows PC as an appliance."
In other words, you can't have it both ways. You have to use the same criteria for judging both Linux and Windows.
Once you do use the same criteria, as far as I can see, Linux and Windows are both equally ready for the desktop. Windows is somewhat ahead in having consistent install procedures, and in available applications (especially games<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-), while Linux is somewhat ahead in stability, security, and pre-installed applications.
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 04, 2003 07:21 PM
> Sorry, but your example, while cute, does not
> hold up here.
Rubbish. Most corporates have IT departments that set Microsoft OS on machines for their employees - often involving significant changes to the default Microsoft product. Grandma qualifies as a Linux user - absolutely!
> hold up here.
Rubbish. Most corporates have IT departments that set Microsoft OS on machines for their employees - often involving significant changes to the default Microsoft product. Grandma qualifies as a Linux user - absolutely!
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite..Yes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 05, 2003 04:24 AM
Look idiot, have you ever seen a DEFAULT Windows XP desktop, no manufacturer, no techy playing..
You get 1 icon, thats the recycle bin on the bottom right, and a crappy intro on how to use it, then msn messenger keeps flashing up, then other windows keep flashing up, saying do this do that..
Install any new big distro, say SuSE, log into kde, you get a help screen, all icons on the bottom, all icons on the desktop and 99% of stuff preconfigured, click mozilla, on the web...
And yes muppet thats a default install with all standard settings, basically a Next,Next Next!!!
Please before you post think first!
You get 1 icon, thats the recycle bin on the bottom right, and a crappy intro on how to use it, then msn messenger keeps flashing up, then other windows keep flashing up, saying do this do that..
Install any new big distro, say SuSE, log into kde, you get a help screen, all icons on the bottom, all icons on the desktop and 99% of stuff preconfigured, click mozilla, on the web...
And yes muppet thats a default install with all standard settings, basically a Next,Next Next!!!
Please before you post think first!
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite..Yes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 06, 2003 10:07 PM
i agree with you completely. i personally have setup fluxbox on debian stable for many clients. Most of them are between the ages of 35 and 90. I set them up with the icons on the desktop for thunderbird, firebird, (labeled internet and mail). gaim, loading on startup, and teach them how to use the scroll wheel to switch to a clean desktop (i usually put 4 on, and people love having a clean desktop, and then switching back just as easily. I don't see anything wrong with this, and most people comment they like things not popping up on the taskbar. Simplicity is the greatest. I'm working on a bootable cd based on dsl (damn small linux) that comes preconfigured like this, and considering calling it Grandma Linux. I'm also working with a couple of schools and small businesses, to setup linux servers, that basically to samba shares and host all the applications, and distributing credit card cds, to students/employees, that auto-auth to the server (ssh keys) and when stolen, can have the key removed, and a new one generated. My biggest problems with businesses is Quickbooks (which i have heard crossover office can run, but havent tried) and in schools, is the typing programs. Other than that, I think Linux is ready for Grandma, schools, and businesses (large and small) This mentality allows the restoration of the traditional computing, a sysadmin/sysops to manage everything, and users, which "USE" the computer.
disasm
disasm
Re:My mom (in her 70s) uses Linux - not quite..Yes
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 06, 2003 10:10 PM
oops, forgot to mention on the desktop mplayer scripts to play dvds, and cdrdao scripts to copy cds, and a link to xmms, with a pretty skin.
I know people who have just bought their first computer, running Windows XP, and are having trouble understanding how to do things.
Sometimes it's not because one operating system is more difficult than another, but because the whole idea of computers baffles the user.
When you buy Windows pre-installed on a computer (probably with an Internet connection already set up for you), then of course you'll find it easier.
Sometimes it's not because one operating system is more difficult than another, but because the whole idea of computers baffles the user.
When you buy Windows pre-installed on a computer (probably with an Internet connection already set up for you), then of course you'll find it easier.
I am my mother-in-law's (72 years young) computer support department. She just bought a new PC with MS Windows XP on it. I use or have used Linux (Slackware/RH/TomsRBT/Coyote/Knoppix), Win95, Win98, and Win2K; yet, WinXP Home is still a problem. The desktop leaves me baffled but, fortunately, I can still poke around and find what I need.
BTW, I did put Mozilla on her system to help protect from those Outlook virii and worms.
BTW, I did put Mozilla on her system to help protect from those Outlook virii and worms.
I'll probably get flamed/banned for this, but...
I've been running XP Home for a bit more than 18months and I love it - mostly.
It's so stable, the only downtime I have had is when thunderstorms take out the power - that's pretty stable.
On the other hand, that stability can also be a liability - I recently goofed something up installing Mandrake, to the point that the only way to boot to ANY OS was to use the Mandrake Install CD and go to the rescue console.
LILO, GRUB, bootfloppies, even my Windows Rescue CD(but only because I couldn't remember my Admin PW) didn't work.
Well, in this wretched state, I found that neither of our XP boxes had FDISK.EXE! For shame! Even better, try going to a command prompt in XP and type in "scandisk a:" - unless you've aliased that, it doesn't exist either(it's chkdsk now, and not documented in the help).
Still, XP is a great OS - it's not that much more swiss-cheesy than a _DEFAULT_ Linux install. Yeah, Windows has holes - in the state that most people run it, but if you run Linux in the same (DEFAULT) state that your average Windows user would, your main defense is obscurity.
Anyway, I got off topic, but the point is, I really like XP(for its stability over previous versions), I'm learning to love linux(because I'm a geek), but both OSes have some serious problems.
Linux for its relative "befuddlement" factor - sure, you linux geeks can set up a box for mom that's just as easy as WinXP/Mac, but what are the odds that she would be able to hit linux.org and find a distro that's both easy enough to set up and easy to use? Pretty low. And installing software is not near as easy as windows apps.
Windows problems are just the opposite - it's almost too easy to use, too forgiving of errors and too ready to set a default when the user doesn't know what (s)he's doing and not ready enough to explain what's going on. (Most users don't really care, they just want it to work, so defaults are good in that world.). Also, the disappearing FDISK and SCANDISK annoyed the heck out of me.
Dang, I rambled again. Somebody stop me before I start another paragraph.
Tom
I've been running XP Home for a bit more than 18months and I love it - mostly.
It's so stable, the only downtime I have had is when thunderstorms take out the power - that's pretty stable.
On the other hand, that stability can also be a liability - I recently goofed something up installing Mandrake, to the point that the only way to boot to ANY OS was to use the Mandrake Install CD and go to the rescue console.
LILO, GRUB, bootfloppies, even my Windows Rescue CD(but only because I couldn't remember my Admin PW) didn't work.
Well, in this wretched state, I found that neither of our XP boxes had FDISK.EXE! For shame! Even better, try going to a command prompt in XP and type in "scandisk a:" - unless you've aliased that, it doesn't exist either(it's chkdsk now, and not documented in the help).
Still, XP is a great OS - it's not that much more swiss-cheesy than a _DEFAULT_ Linux install. Yeah, Windows has holes - in the state that most people run it, but if you run Linux in the same (DEFAULT) state that your average Windows user would, your main defense is obscurity.
Anyway, I got off topic, but the point is, I really like XP(for its stability over previous versions), I'm learning to love linux(because I'm a geek), but both OSes have some serious problems.
Linux for its relative "befuddlement" factor - sure, you linux geeks can set up a box for mom that's just as easy as WinXP/Mac, but what are the odds that she would be able to hit linux.org and find a distro that's both easy enough to set up and easy to use? Pretty low. And installing software is not near as easy as windows apps.
Windows problems are just the opposite - it's almost too easy to use, too forgiving of errors and too ready to set a default when the user doesn't know what (s)he's doing and not ready enough to explain what's going on. (Most users don't really care, they just want it to work, so defaults are good in that world.). Also, the disappearing FDISK and SCANDISK annoyed the heck out of me.
Dang, I rambled again. Somebody stop me before I start another paragraph.
Tom
He's Right! It's the little things that are vexing
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 06:49 PM
Many people have gotten accustomed to using certain things on windows that are sorely missed when moving to Linux. For years I have been setting up Windows desktops for people and by default the mouse wheel button is set to (back) navigation. This simple setting is not available in Linux. When my Linux prospects learn about it, their response is "How long before you fix that?" They see it as broken. I've tried to use mouse emulation, then assign alt+ back arrow to the wheel button but it doesn't work for me. This is a small thing, or is it? It represents the fundamental way they navigate on their PC's and it's a deal breaker. The other most vexing thing is the media player GUI's. No matter how perfectly they may perform, if the GUI is unruly it's useless. I'm talking about the DVD Player style GUI which acts like a collection of Java pop up ads with microscopic fonts.(I guess Mr. cataracts never needs to watch a video) and the auto zoom function that can't be turned off. The gui window (with the movie inside it) needs to open at the same place, at the same size and it should be able to maximize and go full screen, with an attachable playlist.
As an example of how it should be done: Check out the screen shots of Oeone distro's Media player (I think it's based on Xine) When in window mode, this player has the video and playlist within the one peice GUI window. Their skin sucks but the layout is the best I've ever seen, Windows included. Will somebody please fix these things. I'm very close to being able to feel good about moving people to linux. But these two points are deal breakers.
As an example of how it should be done: Check out the screen shots of Oeone distro's Media player (I think it's based on Xine) When in window mode, this player has the video and playlist within the one peice GUI window. Their skin sucks but the layout is the best I've ever seen, Windows included. Will somebody please fix these things. I'm very close to being able to feel good about moving people to linux. But these two points are deal breakers.
Here's the Oeone URL for the media player.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 07:04 PM
http://www.oeone.com/images/screenshots/wordproce<nobr>s<wbr></nobr> sor_w_mediaplayer.jpg It's inside the wordprocessor screen shot.
http://www.oeone.com/images/screenshots/wordproce<nobr>s<wbr></nobr> sor_w_mediaplayer.jpg
Re:He's Right! It's the little things that are vex
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 07:56 PM
I'm not sure about the mouse. Maybe that's a region specfic thing? I have a five button (Microsoft Explorer) mouse, and Windows always defaults to that scroll type thing. Older versions of galeon (I think before they did that massive GTK2 upgrade) let you change what various buttons did anyway. I think you can still access those settings with gconf-editor anyway (I know, it's a hack, but it's there).
For Media, take a look at totem. It's GTK2 based, has a very simple playlist, uses xine for a backend, and supports samba directly through the gnome-vfs layer.
(I agree, xine's default player is crap, but I suspect that was meant more as a demo, than an actual final product).
For Media, take a look at totem. It's GTK2 based, has a very simple playlist, uses xine for a backend, and supports samba directly through the gnome-vfs layer.
(I agree, xine's default player is crap, but I suspect that was meant more as a demo, than an actual final product).
I've always been bothered by the mouse wheel not working either. It is a VERY handy way to scroll through text and such when it works. I'm not sure what you meant by "(back) navigation", but here's what I've done to get the mouse wheel working "almost" like I want (note: I can't get it to work totally like I'd like in many Window's programs either...)
First; you have to keep in mind that these new "desktop environments" like KDE and Gnome are still running on top of the X window system (which is, of course, just running on top of the Linux kernel). The<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/X11/XF86Config file has to be edited and a line added to the mouse description to enable the "Z-axis movement". The buttons on a typical wheel mouse (such as the MS intellimouse) are identified as 1-right button, 2-left button, 3-middle button(wheel pushed down), 4-wheel rotated upwards, 5-wheel rotated downwards. So, buttons 4 and 5 have to identified to the X server as to be used for this "Z-axis movement". Once this is done, and your using the correct mouse driver (the "auto" setting seems to usually work for most PS/2 and serial mouses), then a lot of the newer software developed for the X window system seems to use the wheel. I've even found that I can get most of the older X window programs to use the wheel by just binding the desired motions to buttons 4 & 5 in the appropiate<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/X11/app-defaults/ file.
First; you have to keep in mind that these new "desktop environments" like KDE and Gnome are still running on top of the X window system (which is, of course, just running on top of the Linux kernel). The<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/X11/XF86Config file has to be edited and a line added to the mouse description to enable the "Z-axis movement". The buttons on a typical wheel mouse (such as the MS intellimouse) are identified as 1-right button, 2-left button, 3-middle button(wheel pushed down), 4-wheel rotated upwards, 5-wheel rotated downwards. So, buttons 4 and 5 have to identified to the X server as to be used for this "Z-axis movement". Once this is done, and your using the correct mouse driver (the "auto" setting seems to usually work for most PS/2 and serial mouses), then a lot of the newer software developed for the X window system seems to use the wheel. I've even found that I can get most of the older X window programs to use the wheel by just binding the desired motions to buttons 4 & 5 in the appropiate<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/X11/app-defaults/ file.
Not sure what the problem is. I'm new to Linux but the installation programs in the two distributions I'm using (Mandrake and Knoppix) had no problems with configuring the mouse wheel on my (shudder) Microsoft mouse. It also turned out the mouse wheel functions perfectly as a Linux "middle click", and the scrolling function is fine. Learning to use the slightly different copy-paste and so on isn't difficult either.
Plenty of information on the net about just about everything... OK Linux is different but that's to be expected.
Plenty of information on the net about just about everything... OK Linux is different but that's to be expected.
Many distros are now preconfigured for using a mouse wheel when the default configuration is installed. But, often things like that aren't set up when you select something other than the default.
And why "shudder" about a Microsoft mouse, nobody ever said Microsoft doesn't sell good "hardware"!
And why "shudder" about a Microsoft mouse, nobody ever said Microsoft doesn't sell good "hardware"!
Not the wheel, the mouse wheel (middle) button!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 04, 2003 04:28 AM
Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough. I have no problem with the mouse wheel (ZAxisMapping) to gain the scroll funtion. What I'm trying to do is change the mouse wheel (middle)button to a "back" navigation button. (saves you from having to click on the back arrow on your browsers). To do this I tried using three button emulation on a three button scroll mouse.(Normally this is only used on two button mice) Thereby moving Linux's normal middle button functions to a simultaneous click of the left and right buttons. In theory this would free up the middle button that is under the wheel for another task (assignment).
I have not been able to assign this button to Alt+Left arrow which is the keyboard back navigation function (or anything else for that matter). Linux or Xfree86 won't release the middle mouse button for any other assignment. It just adds the emulation function to the left and right buttons.
As I said before, I've been setting the mouse up like this on windows machines for years and my clients have gotten used to this feature and it would be sorely missed by them. Do any of you know how this could be done? I'm stumped.
I have not been able to assign this button to Alt+Left arrow which is the keyboard back navigation function (or anything else for that matter). Linux or Xfree86 won't release the middle mouse button for any other assignment. It just adds the emulation function to the left and right buttons.
As I said before, I've been setting the mouse up like this on windows machines for years and my clients have gotten used to this feature and it would be sorely missed by them. Do any of you know how this could be done? I'm stumped.
Re:Not the wheel, the mouse wheel (middle) button!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 05, 2003 08:32 AM
Ah, the "third" mouse button, I thought in linux it was reserved for specific x-window stuff.
I suppose it all depends on how your GUI is set up to handle the third button"
I suppose it all depends on how your GUI is set up to handle the third button"
Re:Not the wheel, the mouse wheel (middle) button!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 05, 2003 09:11 AM
It is, but if you only have a two button mouse, Xfree86 uses three button emulation. Pushing the left a right mouse button at the same time emulates the third button. So in theory if you were to use this emulation function on a three button mouse, it would free up the third button for other uses. I would like to be able to map that free button to a keyboard navigation command. Alt+Left which is the keyboard back navigation keys. When I try to do this in Xfree86config-4 it just assigns the middle button command to both without freeing up the middle button.
Re:He's Right! It's the little things that are vex
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 04, 2003 05:59 AM
I thought I'd look for a back in history click function for you in konqueror 3.1.1. In web browser behaviour there's a 'Right click goes back in history' option... unfortunately it doesn't work for me (KDE3.1.1 Suse8.2) but rather opens the context menu... so there's hope but its not quite there yet! Probably what needs to happen is the middle button is re-assignable (it currently opens a new window/tab over links or the url in the clipboard elsewhere). Maybe you should suggest this to the authors - they probably never use windows and aren't aware of this feature!
I believe the mouse functions for the desktop are directly connected to Xfree86. There is a section on their site that list all of the possible functions and how to implement them but back navigation or keyboard assignments aren't mentioned. I've sent them a number of e-mails over the last six months, but they are never answered. They must get alot of whacky requests by e-mail so they don't respond to any. I post this stuff in hopes that some smart coder will post a fix or a patch. Mouseware for Linux would make some coder a hero for a bunch of us.
Re:He's Right! It's the little things that are vex
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 05, 2003 08:26 AM
with things like that mouse wheel issue, how many bells and whistles does the user really need?
if a linux system can't use the mouse wheel in the same ways as windows, why not assign a different feature to it.
I'd rather teach the user to be able to function with the basics, and train them to use a minimal selection of bells and whistles.
I understand wheelmouse features are useful, I prefer them for scrolling around a page than flicking the "back" button of a browser.
if a linux system can't use the mouse wheel in the same ways as windows, why not assign a different feature to it.
I'd rather teach the user to be able to function with the basics, and train them to use a minimal selection of bells and whistles.
I understand wheelmouse features are useful, I prefer them for scrolling around a page than flicking the "back" button of a browser.
A bell and whistle to you may be an essential function to others. Mouse funtions that people have become used to having is a tuff give up. It represent the basic way they navigate through web pages and file browser pages.
Re:He's Right! It's the little things that are vex
Posted by: Mandrake Magician on September 08, 2003 08:25 AM
Hmmm<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I thought that using the scroll wheel for scrolling a page up and down was pretty intuitive. I really think fwd/back is brain dead slobber.
Just because MSFT does something a particular way does not make it the best way.
The first time I used the scroll wheel to see what it would do, the page I was viewing moved up and down. "Cool" That's all it took to learn the motion.
Just because MSFT does something a particular way does not make it the best way.
The first time I used the scroll wheel to see what it would do, the page I was viewing moved up and down. "Cool" That's all it took to learn the motion.
MDK Magic critical thinking without thinking
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 08, 2003 09:46 AM
Without rolling the scroll wheel, push (depress) the wheel down. That is the middle button. Nowhere in any of these posts is there any hint of removing the scroll function.
Before you rush to criticize, try knowing a bit of what your talking about. Instead of pulling rabbits out of hats, try pulling your head out of your ass. That would be the real magic.
Before you rush to criticize, try knowing a bit of what your talking about. Instead of pulling rabbits out of hats, try pulling your head out of your ass. That would be the real magic.
...with all of the "Is Linux Ready For<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... " articles!!!
This crap is wearing thin. People are using it in many different variations, from personal to corporate.
It's fricken ready! Stop writing wondering if it is.
This crap is wearing thin. People are using it in many different variations, from personal to corporate.
It's fricken ready! Stop writing wondering if it is.
The significant this is the "....." in "Is linux read for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....". As this continually defines a smaller and smaller audience. A while ago linux was ready for anything... this latest article tells us that it is good enough for everything except a pretty small sub-set of semi-computer-illiterates
if it's ready, then why aren't linux desktops sold in every store ? why is the desktop adoption rate at such a low level ?
answer that.
answer that.
... because Microsoft has a recognised monopoly of desktops?
yep. so that's one reason why linux is not ready for the desktop, as bad as that reason is. there are other reasons as well, but accepting that it's not ready is the first step in getting it ready.
there are many many non-technical, non-ui, non-financial reasons why linux is not on more people's desktops, and just because they aren't (in linux users' opinions) good reasons doesn't make them go away.
there are many many non-technical, non-ui, non-financial reasons why linux is not on more people's desktops, and just because they aren't (in linux users' opinions) good reasons doesn't make them go away.
Gee Smitty, that's really insightful. Thanks for the brilliant illumination of the totally obvious.
you're welcome. apparently it's not obvious to the dolt who wrote above: "It's fricken ready!"
(who is the one I responded to)
(who is the one I responded to)
I didn't agree with the if Linux is ready bit though. Another companies monopoly doesn't make Linux unready because that's unfair competition. Linux is ready, however it isn't there, and the reason it isn't there is because it isn't on shelves in every store.
Seriously, I realise you may disagree but the technical OS is way up to par and ready in my opinion, it simply needs to have wider adoption and software from the bigger companies, y'know, products like AutoCAD et al. That doesn't mean it isn't ready though, as before, it means it isn't there.
We could do with better documentation though and help in the help menu. SCO is helping with making the Linux name more well known too.
Seriously, I realise you may disagree but the technical OS is way up to par and ready in my opinion, it simply needs to have wider adoption and software from the bigger companies, y'know, products like AutoCAD et al. That doesn't mean it isn't ready though, as before, it means it isn't there.
We could do with better documentation though and help in the help menu. SCO is helping with making the Linux name more well known too.
I agree...I do believe that alot of opinion on this issue confuses "is Linux ready for the desktop" with "why aren't people ready for Linux to be on their desktop". It's a fundamental difference, and one that needs taking a look at, which articles like this at least attempt to do.
> if it's ready, then why aren't linux desktops sold in every store?
I've asked that question, and the answer I keep getting back is that they are afraid of Microsoft.
I've also heard tales about how Microsoft has punished stores that dared to step out of line.
Basically, you have to be prepared to change your store to 100% Linux, because if you try to do both, Microsoft will hurt your business by playing games with the pricing and supply.
Note, however, that most stores will sell me a naked PC, and that wasn't true a couple years ago.
I've asked that question, and the answer I keep getting back is that they are afraid of Microsoft.
I've also heard tales about how Microsoft has punished stores that dared to step out of line.
Basically, you have to be prepared to change your store to 100% Linux, because if you try to do both, Microsoft will hurt your business by playing games with the pricing and supply.
Note, however, that most stores will sell me a naked PC, and that wasn't true a couple years ago.
who is "they" in "they are afraid of Microsoft." ?
"I've also heard tales about how Microsoft has punished stores that dared to step out of line."
apparently that hasn't happened to Wal-Mart.
"I've also heard tales about how Microsoft has punished stores that dared to step out of line."
apparently that hasn't happened to Wal-Mart.
> who is "they" in "they are afraid of Microsoft." ?
The owners of various PC stores in my area. You should hear one of them go on about how much he hates Microsoft. It was a few years ago, but he insisted on putting the Borland software closer to the door than the Microsoft software, and Microsoft made his life hell, calling for audits, limiting his supply of Windows, refusing to let him in on pricing deals that the other stores in the area were getting, and so on. He eventually caved.
> apparently that hasn't happened to Wal-Mart.
Maybe Wal-mart is too big to threaten.
The owners of various PC stores in my area. You should hear one of them go on about how much he hates Microsoft. It was a few years ago, but he insisted on putting the Borland software closer to the door than the Microsoft software, and Microsoft made his life hell, calling for audits, limiting his supply of Windows, refusing to let him in on pricing deals that the other stores in the area were getting, and so on. He eventually caved.
> apparently that hasn't happened to Wal-Mart.
Maybe Wal-mart is too big to threaten.
She's used Mandrake since late 2000. She asked for a Linux machine for Christmas. I tried to talk her out of it, but she refuted every argument I had. She keeps her old Windows machine in case her Linux box has a catastrophic failure. It's been gathering dust for 3 years now.
Here, we do not have Windows anymore. I just removed the damn beast all by myself and installed Gentoo, giving us in total a Debian GNU/Linux Woody box and a Gentoo box. Both are hard working, and serve us well.
It is quite clear that most sites either work with Mozilla or with Konqueror. Which is, nice. The main thing she does is using _my_ user-desktop to surf a bit here and there. I receive a compliant every now and then but when Konqueror doesn't work i learned her to try Mozilla. Some sites like the Dutch Railways (www.ns.nl) don't work at all with Konqueror when wanting to know when the train goes. This is about it, though i can learn her more when needed. Oh and she plays a game every now and then.
Eventually, we got the taxes Windows program (she works for the taxes, so it's important) working. Including not only starting the damn thing up, but also using it to actually calculate and using the printer. Only thing was the fonts, but that should be fixed with some wine config hacking. I'm satisfied.
Might things go Wrong, i still got Wine. I prefer opensource solutions and else *nix solutions, though.
It is quite clear that most sites either work with Mozilla or with Konqueror. Which is, nice. The main thing she does is using _my_ user-desktop to surf a bit here and there. I receive a compliant every now and then but when Konqueror doesn't work i learned her to try Mozilla. Some sites like the Dutch Railways (www.ns.nl) don't work at all with Konqueror when wanting to know when the train goes. This is about it, though i can learn her more when needed. Oh and she plays a game every now and then.
Eventually, we got the taxes Windows program (she works for the taxes, so it's important) working. Including not only starting the damn thing up, but also using it to actually calculate and using the printer. Only thing was the fonts, but that should be fixed with some wine config hacking. I'm satisfied.
Might things go Wrong, i still got Wine. I prefer opensource solutions and else *nix solutions, though.
Well I really don't understand this guy, let me tell you that my mom 65 year old woman is using Linux under KDE 3.1 and OpenOffice with no problems. Even my child a 3 year old kid is using linux under KDE playing with gCompris, Potato Guy, Other educational software.
As I say this is my story and I don't understand what this guy is talking about
As I say this is my story and I don't understand what this guy is talking about
Because Windows isn't ready for the desktop or the Internet or to help others grow their businesses in the wonderful industry we call computing, nearly everyone I know uses Linux. It is so flexible!
The people I'm refering to include: My six (6) kids (ages 8 - 18, three boys, three girls), my wife (an artist), ALL of my colleagues, ALL of my clients.
Linux is for those who are ready -- not the other way around -- to be free, open and creative. Think of Linux as the icon for a new kind of Renaissance for the computing industry. It's emerging all around you!
Windows is for those who are stagnant, old-school in their thinking and want to follow the crowd. "Where do you want to be led, today?"
The people I'm refering to include: My six (6) kids (ages 8 - 18, three boys, three girls), my wife (an artist), ALL of my colleagues, ALL of my clients.
Linux is for those who are ready -- not the other way around -- to be free, open and creative. Think of Linux as the icon for a new kind of Renaissance for the computing industry. It's emerging all around you!
Windows is for those who are stagnant, old-school in their thinking and want to follow the crowd. "Where do you want to be led, today?"
I suspect a lot of this is about expectations. Many people have only ever used Windows, so if Linux does something un-Windows-like they just assume it must be broken.
For many ordinary people, computer=Windows. They wouldn't even understand the concept of an operating system, unless it was explained to them.
That's why an approach of the Oeone type is a good strategy. If you make everything as simple and obvious as possible, there's no discomfort for the new user. The geeks will shudder, but the ordinary computer user won't care.
How many car drivers understand how an automatic transmission works?
http://www.oeone.com
http://lwn.net/2002/0502/a/OEone1.0_part2.php3
For many ordinary people, computer=Windows. They wouldn't even understand the concept of an operating system, unless it was explained to them.
That's why an approach of the Oeone type is a good strategy. If you make everything as simple and obvious as possible, there's no discomfort for the new user. The geeks will shudder, but the ordinary computer user won't care.
How many car drivers understand how an automatic transmission works?
http://www.oeone.com
http://lwn.net/2002/0502/a/OEone1.0_part2.php3
I suspect a lot of this is about expectations.
That's right, a lot of people have become familiar with the idea of a computer operating in the way Windows does. A computer isn't a computer unless it looks and feels just like Windows.
Some even become distressed unless they frequently reboot the machine.
I can imagine people getting depressed because they haven't been infected by a virus, especially when all of their friends have a few.
And imagine how people will react when they can't find the "My Computer" icon.
That's right, a lot of people have become familiar with the idea of a computer operating in the way Windows does. A computer isn't a computer unless it looks and feels just like Windows.
Some even become distressed unless they frequently reboot the machine.
I can imagine people getting depressed because they haven't been infected by a virus, especially when all of their friends have a few.
And imagine how people will react when they can't find the "My Computer" icon.
What's a My Computer icon??
The question of Mom being able to use Linux is a flawed one. Mom is inherently non-technical and as such is of limited function. You can always sum moms up in 3 tasks: Web, email and word processing. All of these are standards, and are of the most basic user experience and function. When you have such limited function, it is easy to get right. Remeber the iOpener? Target audiance=Mom. Simple interface. It worked well. Linux is finally where the iOpener was 3 years ago.
The true test of linux is when you venture outside the familar 3. The Linux experince I liken to the coast line - the shallowness of the water being the usability and comfort factor. As you walk out it gets steadily deeper, it works, until you hit the contential shelf, and the ground drops out beneath you.
The goal here is to get the continental shelf to last as long as possible. Window's shelf is at least a thousand miles long before you get to the point of the ground dissapearing. Linux's is only a few miles.
Indeed I think this is a very apropos analogy. Moms can venture pretty far out, and they are comfortable venturing even deeper, because the ground is there. In linux once you get past the common functions, the ground dissapears, and the comfort factor dissapears just as quick. The current offerings are no better than strapping a life jacket on and telling you to keep swimming.
I've gone over what has to be done time and time again, so I won't recount it here. But what we need to do is make sure that linux can handle those who need to venture deeper without the OS stopping and the support web pages coming in to fill the gap. The OS relies too much on comminuty and not enough on itself to get the user to get the problem solved. Indeed, if you could put someone in a room on a linux computer WITHOUT internet resources to consult, (and putting them on CD or locally does not count!!) and have them accouplish their non-Mom tasks, then you'll have a ready OS.
The true test of linux is when you venture outside the familar 3. The Linux experince I liken to the coast line - the shallowness of the water being the usability and comfort factor. As you walk out it gets steadily deeper, it works, until you hit the contential shelf, and the ground drops out beneath you.
The goal here is to get the continental shelf to last as long as possible. Window's shelf is at least a thousand miles long before you get to the point of the ground dissapearing. Linux's is only a few miles.
Indeed I think this is a very apropos analogy. Moms can venture pretty far out, and they are comfortable venturing even deeper, because the ground is there. In linux once you get past the common functions, the ground dissapears, and the comfort factor dissapears just as quick. The current offerings are no better than strapping a life jacket on and telling you to keep swimming.
I've gone over what has to be done time and time again, so I won't recount it here. But what we need to do is make sure that linux can handle those who need to venture deeper without the OS stopping and the support web pages coming in to fill the gap. The OS relies too much on comminuty and not enough on itself to get the user to get the problem solved. Indeed, if you could put someone in a room on a linux computer WITHOUT internet resources to consult, (and putting them on CD or locally does not count!!) and have them accouplish their non-Mom tasks, then you'll have a ready OS.
Maybe this is your mom. MY mom (early 70's)was trying to work me to death. Her first p.c. was win98 and within 6 mo. she had tried ALOT of picture editors. She finely figured out that only Photoshop would work for her. Then came the plug-ins. Then came Bryce. At the same time my dad was learning all about digital cameras and asking me questions about that. At the end of 6 mo. my dad had bought one of the best cameras on the market ( choosing between them by options I never heard of ), and bought a do-hicky that scans his slides in to jpegs. Right now, Dad is starting to work on moving super 8 video into mpeg format and burning everything to cd. Mom read somewhere about GIMP being used for a couple of movies she liked. Bad news for me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... Now she has to dual boot into Mandrake and is busy learning how to use that. All of this is running on a 10/100mbit network with a slackware gateway useing a modem for internet access. "The internet is neat, but we don't really need a highspeed access yet." This has all happened in the last 2 1/2 years. I install the stuff ( some, not all of the software, and all the hardware )and they figure it out and use it. Plus mom has turned into a gaming fanatic. Anyone want to buy or trade for a pair of slightly used parents that will run you to death? One last side note<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..... my mom DOESN'T like the fact that linux doesn't crash, thats when she takes her breaks ( while windows reboots, scandisks, etc), so she ends up sitiing for a couple of hours straight almost without moving while working on a picture and when she finishes she is soooo stiff. Its not nice, but I still gotta laugh at that one, I do the same thing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
This is exactly what I mean!
Had the contitental shelf of Linux been bigger, YOU would not be run to death. They'd be able to do it themselves.. Like on Windows....
Had the contitental shelf of Linux been bigger, YOU would not be run to death. They'd be able to do it themselves.. Like on Windows....
If the "continental shelf" on Windows was bigger, the darned thing would run longer and more securely.
"Oberlin, which began requiring all students to have their computers checked for viruses when they arrive on campus, found infections in nine out of every 10 running Windows software, Bucher said."
http://www.detnews.com/2003/technology/0309/07/te<nobr>c<wbr></nobr> hnology-262953.htm
THERE'S your continental shelf (and these are 'techno savvy' x-gens with YOUR preferred OS). Fix it.
"Oberlin, which began requiring all students to have their computers checked for viruses when they arrive on campus, found infections in nine out of every 10 running Windows software, Bucher said."
http://www.detnews.com/2003/technology/0309/07/te<nobr>c<wbr></nobr> hnology-262953.htm
THERE'S your continental shelf (and these are 'techno savvy' x-gens with YOUR preferred OS). Fix it.
So _you_ are the famous "Anonymous Reader" whose writings I've followed so closely for so long?!?!?
I'm sure I'll recognize your musings in the future!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-D
I'm sure I'll recognize your musings in the future!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-D
I agree!
For GNU/Linux systems to expand out of the geek ghetto, they will have to be much more useable. Especially concerning peripheral devices such as scanners, cd writers, etc.
Note: setting up a printer in GNU/Linux should not be a nightmare this late in history; it's 2003, not 1803 . . .
For GNU/Linux systems to expand out of the geek ghetto, they will have to be much more useable. Especially concerning peripheral devices such as scanners, cd writers, etc.
Note: setting up a printer in GNU/Linux should not be a nightmare this late in history; it's 2003, not 1803 . . .
My mom uses linux.... and shes doesn't have a degree. Hell, I don't have a degree.
It fails the "wife" test for me. She insists on playing those inane online games that are only available on the MSN website, and that site refuses to allow her to play the games unless she's using IE. I've tried a number of different browsers and none of them work except IE - even if the alternative browsers provide a way to "fake" it's id string.
IE runs in Crossover Office, and I believe it is Wine-able as well.
Send her to Yahoo. The games there are standard Java-based, and work fine under Linux and Mozilla.
Just say no to M$ and their proprietary garbage!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 04, 2003 06:44 PM
Losing MSN online games isn't much of a give up for freedom. Microsoft is like a crack dealer. Making it easy and cheap to start. Then once your hooked,they bend you over and slip it to you. Maybe that's why they are calling their next Windows version "LongHorn" because this new version will have a longer reach. Try pulling up your pants for a change.
You should take note of every proprietary (lock in) product or service you have, or are using. Then take steps to get rid of them. At least don't purchase any more.
You should take note of every proprietary (lock in) product or service you have, or are using. Then take steps to get rid of them. At least don't purchase any more.
What do you mean by mom?
The term is heavely overused.
It may mean non-computer literate user that used Windows, Word, IE, OE & maybe MSN till now.
Then Linux readiness is discutable<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. Personally, I tend to think it is there.
It may also mean somebody who has never used a computer befor and now wants it for "this web thing".
Then Linux is definatly ready. It is no harder to learn to *use* Linux from scratch then Windows. Especially as the administration is only done once and you can put a "deselect update" as a anacron-job.
As soon as your mom wants to use her computer for more than the web & office, it gets difficult.
Suddenly you have to install applications and instead of using mainstream applications, you have to use freshmeat & google to search for a Linux alternativ, install the 5 different version, find out that 2 doesnt compile, a third needs a library that conflicts with an existing one, the forth is incomplete and works barely and finally the last one is somewhat satisfying, but not quite as good as the mainstream app (who's Windows only).
That's the main problem of Linux, in some areas we are good enough to be usable, especially everything that's about Web, Image treatement and recently office suites, however there are large area's of specialized application where the Linux alternative isnt good enough and/or hard to find & install.
So, if you only use the Web and have somebody to set up the computer for you, Linux is ready for you.
If you are a willing to invest the time to find, resolve library issues & install a Linux alternative, Linux may be for you if you either :
a) are in a few "geeky" areas where the Linux alternatives are almosts as good or even better than their Windows alternative
or
b) are ready to use inferior applications either because of the freedom to make them better (which is only interesting for programmers) or to avoid vendor-lock-in
This is for home-use (= mom).
The term is heavely overused.
It may mean non-computer literate user that used Windows, Word, IE, OE & maybe MSN till now.
Then Linux readiness is discutable<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. Personally, I tend to think it is there.
It may also mean somebody who has never used a computer befor and now wants it for "this web thing".
Then Linux is definatly ready. It is no harder to learn to *use* Linux from scratch then Windows. Especially as the administration is only done once and you can put a "deselect update" as a anacron-job.
As soon as your mom wants to use her computer for more than the web & office, it gets difficult.
Suddenly you have to install applications and instead of using mainstream applications, you have to use freshmeat & google to search for a Linux alternativ, install the 5 different version, find out that 2 doesnt compile, a third needs a library that conflicts with an existing one, the forth is incomplete and works barely and finally the last one is somewhat satisfying, but not quite as good as the mainstream app (who's Windows only).
That's the main problem of Linux, in some areas we are good enough to be usable, especially everything that's about Web, Image treatement and recently office suites, however there are large area's of specialized application where the Linux alternative isnt good enough and/or hard to find & install.
So, if you only use the Web and have somebody to set up the computer for you, Linux is ready for you.
If you are a willing to invest the time to find, resolve library issues & install a Linux alternative, Linux may be for you if you either :
a) are in a few "geeky" areas where the Linux alternatives are almosts as good or even better than their Windows alternative
or
b) are ready to use inferior applications either because of the freedom to make them better (which is only interesting for programmers) or to avoid vendor-lock-in
This is for home-use (= mom).
Here at Computerbank SA
( http://sa.computerbank.org.au/ )
we give donated, recycled hardware to low income groups, communities and individuals. We put Linux on as the software, because a) we believe its better than the buggy virus ridden windows stuff around b) its free.
We use the KDE desktop, and Mandrake or Debian distros. Abiword is great for most word processing, Open Office for some people like students who need mroe powerful formatting options.
Flash works nicely in Konqueror I have found.
The vast majority keep Linux - we only have two or three a year change to Windows. One has asked for help changing back!
Its amazing the reponse we get:
Windows users are amazed it can be LIKE Windows but with so much free stuff.
Non computer users are as nervous as any - I've trained Windows users too, its the same learning curve.
Mandrake is good for these scared ones with its guis for adding and removing stuff.
We use legacy hardware: about P-200 with 64mb ram.
Improvements needed?
Mounting and unmounting is still a confusion to some.
Open Office is SLOOOOOW and greedy, but I'm trialling the latest one, which may be better. (We are just starting to get higher spec systems donated, which will help too)
Software installing and uninstalling, Mandrake gets better points for GUIS, but i LOVE apt - I use Debain for development and testing of stuff - *bliss*. As apt becomes used more and more on Mandrake, ok, it will probably get better for users. But
( http://sa.computerbank.org.au/ )
we give donated, recycled hardware to low income groups, communities and individuals. We put Linux on as the software, because a) we believe its better than the buggy virus ridden windows stuff around b) its free.
We use the KDE desktop, and Mandrake or Debian distros. Abiword is great for most word processing, Open Office for some people like students who need mroe powerful formatting options.
Flash works nicely in Konqueror I have found.
The vast majority keep Linux - we only have two or three a year change to Windows. One has asked for help changing back!
Its amazing the reponse we get:
Windows users are amazed it can be LIKE Windows but with so much free stuff.
Non computer users are as nervous as any - I've trained Windows users too, its the same learning curve.
Mandrake is good for these scared ones with its guis for adding and removing stuff.
We use legacy hardware: about P-200 with 64mb ram.
Improvements needed?
Mounting and unmounting is still a confusion to some.
Open Office is SLOOOOOW and greedy, but I'm trialling the latest one, which may be better. (We are just starting to get higher spec systems donated, which will help too)
Software installing and uninstalling, Mandrake gets better points for GUIS, but i LOVE apt - I use Debain for development and testing of stuff - *bliss*. As apt becomes used more and more on Mandrake, ok, it will probably get better for users. But
The real history
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2003 05:49 PMThe short answer seems to be "no" (unless of course mom is capable of editing the registry, and locating drivers on the internet). However, "borrowing", and other "friendly" behaviour by Microsoft, augmented by contributions from shareware authors, and "get rich quick" companies, is beginning to move Windows into reach as a mainstream, desktop OS. It's the small things like BSODs and viruses running rampant that tended to trip up non-technical users in my recent non-scientific tests.
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