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Feature: Open Source

Getting open source into public libraries

By Bob Kerr on December 15, 2003 (8:00:00 AM)

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Editor's note: Bob Kerr has tackled an important task: Making open source software available through local libraries. He's been extremely successful at doing it. But that's not all. He has also written a Howto on the subject so that others can follow his lead. We invited Bob to do a commentary on the subject for NewsForge, and he has graciously accepted. If you are looking for a way to help spread open source software to those still on the wrong side of the digital divide, Bob writes with intimate knowledge of one way you can do just that.

Why are open source CDs not available in libraries for borrowing? The answer is because no one has asked librarians why.

I have been spending the last six months working to get the first open source or free software CDs available in libraries as lending CDs. I have now succeeded; 415 public libraries out of a possible 507 have accepted them in Scotland.

The first reaction from the open source community is usually "Great, I'll burn a whole set of CDs and donate them to my local library." This is completely and utterly the wrong thing to do. It is wrong because you will not be taking into account the responsibilities libraries have for their patrons. The CDs you burn will have to be thrown away. You will also be trying to force libraries to do what you want them to do, and nobody likes that.

How did I do it, then? I asked librarians, "Why can't you accept them?" Then I listened to what they said.

A matter of trust

Their first reason is, "They can't trust the public." I was insulted at first, but when someone at my local Linux User Group came up to me and said, "Wouldn't it be funny if I made a CD with a virus on it and donated it to the library?" I realized the libraries were absolutely correct. This idiot in my local group proved the case for them.

Librarians do not and should not have any liability for their patrons? computers, for damage or for technical support. I'm sure that most of you have installed some software on a friend?s computer, only to have him come back and ask you for more help later on. Librarians not only have no interest in doing this; they actively want to make sure that they do not need to do it. They have many more important things to do.

Open source projects can deliver new versions of software almost daily. It can cost a library a lot of money to catalogue items. If it were to cost a library $40 to catalogue each CD from a cover of a magazine, then they will quite rightly say, "Go and buy the magazine."

The last reason is that librarians don't know what the software is. How many times have you received a piece of software from a friend telling you that it is the best in the entire world, and you have not bothered to install it? Librarians have no interest in spending time analyzing software to find out if it has any worth. They don't read all the books they are given, but they judge if the books have long-term value and social worth. A book on household plants may be of more use to their patrons than one on virtual brain surgery.

Some libraries in San Francisco go to the effort of removing the CDs that come with books because of the reasons stated above.

Light at the end of library row

This sounds all very depressing, but it is not. All it is a problem to be solved, and we must help solve it with them. It has nothing to do with the software and everything to do with presentation and supply.

The librarians to whom I have talked are very enthusiastic about free software, but there are no solutions for their problems. I gave them my solutions, and they became very interested.

It's not the license. Or is it?

When I mention GPL (General Public License), their eyes glaze over. When I mention copyleft, they instantly understand and smile. When I tell them that I have not, and never had, the intention of getting this software installed on any library compute, they are relieved. That is their choice, not yours. When I mention that this is a major release of the software and that they will not need to consider it further for a long time, they accept it has long-term value. When I tell or show them how good the software is, they can understand its value. Not because of the software itself, but what it can enable their patrons to do.

When I point out that the big liability statement on the back of the DVD cover, they know that they are not responsible for any technical support and that the library cannot be sued by anyone, solving another problem.

The fact that it is in a DVD cover means that they do not need to buy special furniture to hold normal CD cases. Did you know that librarians hate normal CD Jewel cases? (Why? They break all the time and need to be replaced). A DVD box can be placed on a shelf. There are also a lot of libraries that do not have a computerized catalogue and can then put a bit of paper on the inside of the cover to be rubber-stamped. The cover can be in exactly the same format as a normal book -- displaying what it is, the author, ISBN number, and -- most importantly -- licenses and the liability statement. The CD itself should not have a printed paper label (that can be made or written on by the public) but, like a music CD, have a unique look that is easily identifiable.

This is what I offered the libraries of Scotland. They accepted it in droves.

You will probably say it is easier to download it. The lending CD is for those people who cannot get access to the Internet, cannot afford it, don't know how to do it. In Scotland, approximately 85% of people are still on dialup; it will be a long time before they can afford to pay for or get access to broadband. This makes it very difficult to download 60MB of OpenOffice.org 1.1, let alone 180MB for the source code. Everyone has access to their local library.

So libraries are happy, but free software/open source CD vendors are not. They believe it may destroy their market. The answer to this is, "No, it will not."

In Edinburgh, there are 26 libraries for 500,000 people. Libraries will only be able to hold a copy of the software, which is valid for a year and is a major version release. The appearance of a library doesn't make all the bookshops disappear. People want their own copy -- and one that hasn't been handled by lots of other people. Libraries will need replacements in the special format that they need. This is a unique market, and a big one.

The same goes for distributions. There is a big fixed market in libraries for distributions that come with books, yet people will still want their own copy.

A distribution such as Debian may give certain CD vendors a preferred status. They only get a preferred status if they follow the rules of the distribution and donate part of their profit back to the project.

Having free software CDs in libraries will not be a threat to business models. It can easily take six weeks to catalogue and deliver a CD to library shelves. Compare that to Bittorent, and you will see what I mean. However, it does get to places and to groups of people who would normally not know about the software.

Looking ahead

Going into the future, I see the huge amount of power that magazines with CDs on their covers now have. With a slight change of cover design, they have the ability to supply the entire library system of the UK with one donation through their readers.

They must, of course, ask libraries what they want. Normal CDs on magazines are useless to libraries because they don't have a specific purpose. A CD like TheOpenCD or Freeduc 1.4.1, which is sponsored by UNESCO and UNICEF, does.

Would magazines donate more than one CD a year? Unlikely, because that is not what their readers want. Would the magazines club together and donate different CDs at the same time? Yes, they could, because it would be beneficial to all of them.

Should I be angry at San Francisco libraries not allowing CDs in their library? No. Forcing anyone to do something they don't want to do just breeds resentment. The problem facing the libraries is one of money. They cannot afford to spend resources on maintaining all the CDs. If I donated to them a computer not connected to any network, with a very simple, easy-to-use interface such as TIVO, the only purpose of which is to copy specific CD content which the library has control, it may be a solution.

They may still resist copying software, but it would allow them to give out copies of free documents at minor expense.

On the CD I donated, I also included the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It states, in Article 26, "Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free at least in the elementary and fundamental stages ..."

It also says, in Article 27, "Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits ..."

The reason I added the document is because it changes the social value of the CD. It proves that by adding a good free program with a valuable document, it combines the value of both the documents and the software.

It is difficult to sell free software CDs in computer shops. It is much easier to give librarians the choice and ability to lend them out in libraries. This can be beneficial to them and us.

After working on this project, I have gained respect for librarians. Supplying information in an unbiased manner is extremely difficult. They have also been sharing information for thousands of years before the birth of free software. Libraries are presently helping in a myriad of different ways in many more areas than just computers.

If you are in a library, find the computer section and view the proportion of computer books there are compared to other subjects. The free software movement is still learning to do what libraries have done for years, so be polite. Listen to them.

If you're nearby, please see the Edinburgh or West Lothian online catalog for copies of OpenOffice (1.1).

One final note: I applaud and welcome donations of computers and software from large companies such as Microsoft to the libraries of the world. The social value of these donations is important and should not be frowned upon.

I hope those companies will treat our donations with the same respect. I hope, too, that they will also understand and acknowledge the importance of impartiality of libraries, and of keeping a balanced and unbiased presentation of knowledge and resources.

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on Getting open source into public libraries

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Well Done!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 15, 2003 11:38 PM
Just like to congratulate such a huge under taking!

As I am resident in Scotland I'd be interested to know which libraries did not want to stock the CD's? I'll certainly be taking a look down at the local library more often.

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Re:Well Done!

Posted by: Bob on December 16, 2003 02:24 AM
Thank you,

The regional councils that accepted the CD's are as follows
Aberdeen, Angus, Argyll and Bute<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,Dundee<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,East Dumbartonshire<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,East lothian<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,East Renfrewshire<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,Edinburgh
Fife<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,Glasgow<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,Inverclyde,Highland,Inverclyde
Midlothian<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,Orkney, Renfrewshire<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,Scottish Borders
Shetland<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,West Dumbartonshire, West Lothian,Western Isles

If there name is not on the above list they did not want the CD's. There may be lots of very sensible reasons why they did not. I don't know what they are. I think it demonstrates well the independent nature and the impartiality of Libraries that some accepted and others didn't

Cheers

Bob

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Excellent

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 15, 2003 11:39 PM
I have to say that this is an excellent article.

A quick question to the author: in the UK, is there any body or organisation that oversees the public libraries? As I understand it, they are funded by the local councils, but if there was a central "point of contact", then maybe if we could contact them and demonstrate the case for open source CD's, then propogation could be made even better.

Anyway, congratulations, and again, an excellent article.

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Re:Excellent

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 12:27 AM
Resource is the Council for Museums, Archives and Libraries and is a government body providing strategic advice and leadership - they're also responsible for the initiatives like the the People's Network (<A HREF="http://www.peoplesnetwork.gov.uk/" TITLE="peoplesnetwork.gov.uk">http://www.peoplesnetwork.gov.uk/</a peoplesnetwork.gov.uk>) which put banks of computers and broadband into public libraries. See <A HREF="http://www.resource.gov.uk/" TITLE="resource.gov.uk">http://www.resource.gov.uk/</a resource.gov.uk>.

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Re:Excellent

Posted by: Bob on December 16, 2003 01:54 AM
The donation I gave was a private donation, There is also a slightly different stucture here in Scotland than in other parts of the country. To increase awareness of Free Software and Open source software in Libraries as lending CDs I wil be donating a further 3000 (approximately) to the libraries of the UK. These will go directly to the librarians. Hopefully this will help start a discussion between Free Software advocates and Libraries. The best thing to do is talk to your local librarian.

Cheers

bob

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It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 12:53 AM
The author mentions the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights". That's when I stopped reading. It was a good article until then.

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 01:32 AM
Let me guess. You voted for George Bush?

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 05:46 AM
Yes... I voted for George Bush. Was there someone else better? Al Gore who just distanced himself by endorsing Howard Dean? At least I vote. But I don't see why that has any bearing on this.

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 01:36 AM
Yeah, human rights are SO overrated.

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 05:49 AM
Yep... also meaningless. How many unborn children will be killed this year? Wouldn't that be considered a basic Human Right... to live?

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Bob on December 16, 2003 01:58 AM
It is a pity that you did not read a little bit further, because I did ask, which document do you think other people should read.

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 05:58 AM
Okay... I read further and I don't see where you asked for opinions on documents. But it doesn't matter because in my humblist opinion, although the temptation is great, adding social documents to free software is awkward at best. Keep them separate. Make a CD of free social documents if you like. But please don't confuse free software with social endeavors.

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Bob on December 16, 2003 08:44 AM
I will ask now then, which free documents or social documents would you put you put on your separate CD?. What format would you use for those documents?

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 10:17 PM
Hmmm.... I think I have an example. Iraq and Afghanistan will need new constitutions. Lets say I'm a 10th grade student studying current events and want to do research on constitutions of the world nations. That's kind of difficult but not impossible. Wouldn't it be neat to have a CD with all the worlds constitutions on it? Make it text format or PDF or whatever works best. Anyway, that's just an example.

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Bob on December 17, 2003 01:09 AM
I think that is an excellent idea on an inportant subject. Which computer programs would you give them to make this a nice project that they can share with their classmates? Should they be able to get this in their local library or school library.
The reason I ask is that although you disagree with my choice of document. I hope you see the importance of combining a document with this piece of software. It creates a CD that can focus everyones attention and discuss.

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 19, 2003 05:11 PM
I agree with this point. The two knee-jerk jerks
that followed (one about Bush, and the sarcastic
one about the importance of human rights) demonstrate the point.

By adding a socio-political aspect to what is
otherwise a neutral offering of technical
educational value, you can alienate people
who would otherwise support you.

Personally I have a problem with the inclusion
of anything from the UDHR because the UDHR is
crap, and gives real human rights a bad name.
Certainly that's just my opinion. And reasonable minds may differ on the issue. But the point is,
the centre of agreement here is the usefulness
of making open soure more widely available through
libraries, and not the nature of human rights
(or abortion, or the European Social Chapter,
or War in Iraw, or George Bush's sentence structures,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...)

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Re:It was good until.....

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 22, 2003 11:21 PM
"it was good until the author mentioned something i didn't like, that's when i put my blinkers back on and went back to reading USA Today"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-p

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Los Angeles Efforts

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 02:23 AM
With help from Bob, we're trying to get the 60 branches of the Los Angeles Public Library to accept the very same CD. I have often borrowed DVDs and audio CDs from one of these branches, but have yet to see software available there. However, my hope is that it will all change, and soon!



Does anyone have connections with the LA Public Library? Please contact Bob if you do, so that we can find ways to possibly hasten their acceptance of our donations! Thanks!

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Re:Los Angeles Efforts

Posted by: OOoEdulead on December 16, 2003 05:50 AM
Also the OpenOffice.org schools project is supported by Bob in getting OpenOffice.org into school libraries. If you are a teacher or parent, ask your local school libraries to make available a disc for the school community.

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Words from a Librarian

Posted by: jlguallar on December 16, 2003 05:15 AM
Hi,

I forwarded the article to a professional librarian from a well known US institution. She had some words of wisdom that I'm sharing here:

(librarian)
This article is interesting. However, there are some aspects the author hasn't discovered about why libraries don't carry copies of Linux. First, most libraries, public, university or otherwise, have collection development policies (that's what I do). CD policies state what information a library will and will not acquire, which formats, etc. Many libraries chose not to purchase software of any kind for patron's consumption... for licensing and copyright reasons, but also for reasons of maintenance, renewability, etc. So, it's not that we don't know about it, it's that we've made a conscious decision not to acquire it.

His understanding of costs is good though underestimated. For every traditional book the library acquires, one can estimate it's value at $75 to $100 on average. Many dollars are invested in cataloging, maintenance, preservation, overhead, selection, etc. People are generally surprised to learn that a library spends 1/3 of it's budget on actually buying content and the other 2/3 on personnel and equipment. If we were to carry software, our investment would be much more than the $75 to $100 because of the frequency with which new versions come out - when superceded editions of content (be it in book format or any other), we have to acquire it, catalog it, monitor when new editions come out, if it doesn't come in on time, we have to claim it... etc., etc. The overhead is enormous.

I must admit the open source movement has in some ways missed the boat on libraries. The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has firmly established itself in public and private libraries through the LSTA Act, supplying thousands of libraries with free computers and windows OS. Now libraries are stuck with all of that infrastructure and a shortage of IT maintenance people. What libraries could really use are thin client solutions and outreach technologies in the community, technical people to teach patrons to install Linux (installfests in libraries?), Linux compatible on-line catalogs with the big vendors (we call them OPACs), Linux compatible content databases (see any libraries' e-resources page for example databases) and for technical people to publish in open access journals rather than subscription based ones... but those are other topics...
(/librarian)

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Re:Words from a Librarian

Posted by: Bob on December 16, 2003 10:26 AM
Thank you for your interesting comments. I also stand corrected on the costs of maintenance in the upkeep of books.

I also believe I have an understanding of the reasons that some of the policies that you talk about have been put in place. These have been formed after much discussion but also in a time when there was no viable choice. Taking OpenOffice.org as an example, was only released very recently. This now gives a new choice and some policies may need to be looked at once more.

You bring up a very valid point about the frequency that Open Source software is released. This makes it impossible for Libraries to keep up with the latest versions. With 30 % of the population still using Windows 98, another 30 % using Windows 2000 having a release of an Open Source Operating system on a yearly basis does start having a valid ring to it because it is more up-to-date than 60 % of what the general population have now. My recommendation would be that only major or yearly releases are worth your consideration to stock.

When I started this project, I was very clear in my mind that I never had any intention to have any Free software/Open source software installed on Library computers. It is an hugely expensive and difficult process. Only programs that fit and solve the needs of Libraries should be used. By donating these CD to libraries I am doing the same thing for members of the public. Most people use their home computers for emails, writing letters, a little drawing, home finance etc. I would really like to hear your opinion on TheOpenCD. This is a Compilation of Free software for use on Windows to see if you think it is appropriate.

The most advance users would like to be able to study how software works and these are the people that are going to be your technicians tommorow. If you give them the opportunity to study this today it could help you a great deal in the future. (note: some Linux distributions are getting very easy to install now, A good example would be ArkLinux. where you put in your name and then play tetris)


As I said in my article, I welcome the donations given by the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. I hope that you will welcome other donations. If the fundamental unbiased nature of free choice of information without judgement is lost in libraries then it will be a sad day indeed. How are members of the public able to interact with these computers.

The governments of China,Germany, India, Taiwan, Australia, the countries of South America are actively promoting Free software is this not important for the public to know about and try for themselves ?.

The discussion concerning Free software/Open source software can go in endless directions very quickly. The only thing that I really want to say to librarians in general is that The free software/ Open source communities would like to say we have information we would like to share with you.

I think that the only question that actually needs answered is are libraries willing to consider offering free information on CDs just like they do with Photocopies and paper.


Cheers

Bob

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Re:Words from a Librarian

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2003 05:11 PM
What libraries could really use are [...] Linux compatible on-line catalogs with the big vendors (we call them OPACs), Linux compatible content databases (see any libraries' e-resources page for example databases)

What about <A HREF="http://www.koha.org/" TITLE="koha.org">www.koha.org</a koha.org>? At least it looks interesting but I might did not understand the liberians whishes correctly.

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Re:Words from a Librarian

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 17, 2003 09:46 PM
For OPAC, and much more, check out innovative (www.iii.com).
Our library's consortium (I'm a trustee of a medium-sized US public library) is switching to it from DRA.
Note that the client is Java, and is known to run fine on Linux (the server runs on, I believe, Solaris).
Imagine running all the OPACs eseentially as dumb terminals; using a Knoppix-style diskless boot (or, LTSP/thin style) instead of the expensive-to-maintain/difficult-to-lock-down Windows clients.
It is interesting to note that Microsoft sells CALs in this educational market at dirt-cheap prices (under $10), so it makes it difficult to get anyone to contemplate such a change.

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Very Interesting response.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 18, 2003 03:23 AM
Just one note on the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I am quoting from memory from a very good presentation to the Senate by Melinda Gates on an overview of the work of the B&MGF.

"We would no more ask our children to do research
with a paper encyclopedia than we would ask them to do their math with a slide rule."

Please note that while I appreciate and respect Melinda Gate's work, I really don't think she "gets it.". That statement was very telling.

One learns math with a slide rule, one learns math. One learns math with a calculator, one leans how to use a calculator. One learns research with encyclopedias, one learns research. One learns research with "Where do you want go today" one learns how to use Micrsoft Internet Explorer. Not the same thing. Not at all. Not even close.

As to a shortage of IT people. I am not alone when I said years ago, that I don't do windows. Libraries accepted a trojan horse, and they were told that they were accepting a trojan horse with the LSTA, and they did it anyway.

(My mother, a career librarian, and my uncle a double phd career librarian and I used to get in downright vicious fights over many of the provisions in the LSTA, I was completely against
it. I still am.)

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Re:Very Interesting response.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 09, 2004 11:58 AM
From your post:***
Libraries accepted a trojan horse, and they were told that they were accepting a trojan horse with the LSTA, and they did it anyway.***

Could you be more explicit in what you mean here? I do not understand the analogy here. What was snuck into libraries - technology in general or Windows specifically?

From your post:***
(My mother, a career librarian, and my uncle a double phd career librarian and I used to get in downright vicious fights over many of the provisions in the LSTA, I was completely against
it. I still am.)***

What provisions specifically are you against in LSTA? What would be better solutions? I am not all that familiar with LSTA so any knowledge you can share would be great.

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Re:Words from a Librarian

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 19, 2003 12:59 AM
I have a vertical solution for art center libraries. It is based on open standards, JSP, PostgreSQL driven. Capable of MARC compatibility through MARC4J. When I tried getting a version developped for general libraries I got little more than light abuse from Librarians from UK HE.

After talking to the people from Koha who are paid by libraries to install their free software I tried to go the paypal donation route. No dice.

I have a thin client solution, silent clients and servers but geting up to speed its very very hard. For the moement I am sticking to art center libraries where documentalists seem much more friendly, kind and understanding people...

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OpenSource allows for Copies!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 06:46 AM
Putting CD's (DVDs) on shelfs seems to be trying to shoe horn new data into an old model. What if we came up with a new model that leveraged new possibilties. Here is a suggestion, why dont we build a standalone system that runs in a kiosk mode (KDE?) and has a interface to a large number of CD images (isos) then with a cdburner people may copy all the CD's they like, and walk away with them. You could also have a vending machine full of blanks which sells them at a small markup over costs, and turn the whole thing into a small profit center of the library. You see if the images are CopyLeft, then we can make and distrbute as many copys as we want, something that you cant do with books. Then all we need to do is write a tools to update the image catalog and it would never need Libraian oversight. This removes the huge problem of overhead, both in the intial aquiring, and in maintaince. While I agree there are alot of things we can learn from libraries, there are also a few things we can teach them, no one should bend completly but instead we should arrive together at the best common solution

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Re:OpenSource allows for Copies!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 07:37 AM
I imagine the idea of donating copies to libraries is to give people a bridge to cross from the land of existing concepts to the land of open source.

The idea of a copying machine is a good one. Libraries are already comfortable with photocopiers. I only have two suggestions both involve making sure the system is closed. The blanks, like blank paper in a photocopier, form part of the system to guarrante quality. And, second, the images on the system are the only ones that can be copied. This avoids the potental of people using it to copy other peoples not-approved-for-copy material. I think this was what you were saying anyway I'm just stating it explicitly.

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Re:OpenSource allows for Copies!!

Posted by: Bob on December 17, 2003 11:22 PM
I think this is an excellent idea, as it gives control to the libraries over content and reduces overhead costs.

You are correct that I am using this CD as a bridge. I know there are many librarians who know about open Source software but out of the many libraries that I have visited there are still many that have not heard of Copy Left software. I hope that this can raise awareness that the benefit of the software is more for the public than for libraries. Though by benefiting the public you will indirectly be benefiting libraries.

I hope that the Free Software, Open Source communities can start talking to find a mutual beneficial solution. Like a standalone CD kiosk like the one above.

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How do I get these CD's

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 08:51 PM
I am a student in Manchester and can't gain access to broadband or shell out £50 for CD's. The direction Bob is going in is perfect for me.

I use Apple computers though and would need a PPC Distro, is this possible.

How would I go about contacting the right people?

Jordan

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Re:How do I get these CD's

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on December 16, 2003 09:16 PM
I just set myself up with an email address to post here

studentwantsadistro@hotmail.com

If anyone could send me a distro that would work on Apple I would be thrilled.

Jordan

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Re:How do I get these CD's

Posted by: Bob on December 17, 2003 12:35 AM
I think it would be quickest and easiest to contact your local Linux users group.

http://www.manlug.mcc.ac.uk/

I am sure there are people there that will help you out.

Cheers

Bob

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The George in Santa Monica

Posted by: SkottlandPaul on January 07, 2004 01:23 PM
Nice article Bob. Well written and thought out. Are you going to be bringing your rollout plan across the ocean? Boulder?? Keep up the good work...

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