Linux.com

Feature: Linux

Red Hat, Microsoft clash at open source conference

By David 'cdlu' Graham on May 11, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)

Share    Print    Comments   

<ed by cp 5.10> TORONTO -- Day 2 of the KMDI Open Source conference started with Robert F. Young, cofounder of Red Hat, Inc. presenting a positive view about open source business models. At the end of a conference day lasting nearly 13 hours, Young returned to deliver the conference's keynote address. In between, Jason Matusow of Microsoft's Shared Source Initiative gave attendees a very different point of view about the value of open source in the enterprise. No real surprises there.

A company can have the world's best business plan, Young said, but still not be completely successful. It isn't simply the business plan that makes a business work; it's talking to customers and running the business that makes the plan produce results.

Young's basic business plan when he started Red Hat was to find a way to pay his rent after being laid off from a failing company.

The key: Always listen to customers

Companies, he said, that start with a perfect business plan don't necessarily succeed. The business plan can cause missed opportunities. The key is not the business plan or model that the company is planning to use but simply listening to what customers want. What your customers want is more important and more relevant than what the venture capital investors want.

His initial idea was to start an all-Unix and related systems book store. He went out and asked potential customers what it was they wanted, and their answer was categorically this: to find out what this free software thing they were hearing about was.

Red Hat created a business based around distributing Linux, and pretty soon it was making seven figures a year.

As the company grew and there was money to be invested, he started attending conferences of Unix vendors. At one such conference in 1995, Scott McNealy, CEO of Sun Microsystems said in a keynote address free software could have no P&L (profit and loss) because it had no P. That made Young happy, he said, because free software was already getting attention at that early stage.

Their customers, Young said, told them not to go proprietary with their software. The great strength of Red Hat to many customers was that the customers could fix the software if it was broken, because source is included, unlike existing proprietary software models.

Red Hat does not sell a product, he told the audience. Red Hat sells control of a product. People are willing to pay for Red Hat even though they know they can get the same product for free because of that.

Like so many analogies in the computer industry, Young compared it to the car industry. Proprietary software, he said, is like an auto manufacturer selling a car with a locked hood that only the manufacturer can open again. Open source allows people to see what's under the hood, even though not everyone will ever actually fix anything.

Red Hat's loss leader

A member of the audience asked if Red Hat loses any money from the $2 Red Hat CD sales that take place around the world.

A lot, said Young, but gracefully. It isn't a problem to the company, because in the long term it's still good for the company, and it's good for Linux as a whole. It allows Red Hat to get to markets that it would otherwise have trouble reaching, he said, by allowing people to sell it in places where the company doesn't market. Those markets would otherwise be essentially cut off from Red Hat if the practice was not allowed.

Besides, as people who buy the $2 version of Red Hat move on, many may get to a point where they can afford the official boxed set, so really they don't lose. It becomes something of a loss leader.

The attendee with the view most contrary to the majority of conference attendees was Microsoft's Matusow.

Matusow said that there is no correct way to distribute software. In fact, he told us, the GPL is itself a proprietary license as are all software licenses, because at the root is the assertion that someone owns it and can give someone else permission to use it.

Linux, he said, is growing largely because of the endorsement of large corporations such as IBM and Novell, which have at their heart their own corporate interests which happen, for the moment, to coincide with Linux. With about 60,000 software companies around the world, it is not just a matter of Linux versus Microsoft. There are a lot of open source and a lot of proprietary software companies.

He addressed Young's assertion that listening to customers is the most important part of a business plan. Of course it is, he said, that's why 80 percent to 90 percent of the features in Microsoft Office are customer-requested features.

Frequent upgrades impossible?

The open source philosophy of "release early, release often" does not work in large corporate settings, he said. Getting a release cycle every two years or 18 months is hard enough; frequent upgrades are simply impossible, he added.

Matusow went on to make a point about Red Hat's corporate Linux licensing, saying that Red Hat has a per-CPU licensing scheme with an auditing clause in the contract, and that client companies could not modify the (GPL'd) code for risk mitigation reasons on Red Hat's part.

He commented that some Microsoft executives' early comments about open source were unfortunate, considering Microsoft itself uses open source in some situations. BSD code, he said, is in Windows, and BSD is used at Microsoft's hotmail web mail service.

Microsoft's Shared Source iniative is so-named because Microsoft wanted to avoid using the term "open" for anything, lest it open too large a can of worms. It did anyway, he noted. Eric S. Raymond, for one, finds the term and concept offensive.

Microsoft's Shared Source is a framework, not a license, he told us. Governments, corporations, educational institutions and others get a read-only license for Microsoft code. Showing the source code is a source of trust, he said. Less than 5 percent of users with access to the source will ever actually modify anything, he said.

Open source, he said, is a pejorative term. The Linux Standard Base, he told us, is necessary for independant software vendors to build on top of Linux.

In the question-and-answer section following his presentation, a member of the audience asked when Microsoft would allow users to save as Open Office XML files, an official standard document format. He avoided the question rather expertly.

Microsoft needed the SCO license

He was next asked about Microsoft's relationship to the SCO lawsuit. He said that Microsoft needed the license from SCO and that the amount paid for that license would not cover the legal costs of the company's suits.

He finished with the statement: "[Microsoft] will continue to compete based on product merit."

After a reception and break, Young took the floor again, this time to deliver an energetic hourlong keynote address.

Young told of his educational background. He acquired a General Arts honors degree from the University of Toronto, the site of the conference, around 30 years ago. He said he was never a very good student, and following the university, he became a typewriter salesman after discovering that he needed several more years of education at institutes he couldn't get into with his grades. He wanted to become a lawyer.

Like many so-so students, he spent much of his homework time in the library reading about any topic possible not related to his homework. There, he learned about the thinker Adam Smith, whose view of the world he explained. Fundamentally, it is that people who go out to make their own lives better can make the world a better place in the process more easily than the world's most benevolent king.

Corporations, he told us, work well when they are small. They are generally responsive and innovative, but as they grow, they lose it. They become dysfunctional, stop innovating, and stop talking to their customers as they take over a larger and larger share of their market -- until they're a monopoly with no idea what's going on and increasingly high prices.

When the 'umbrella' effect kicks in

At that point, he said, the umbrella effect kicks in, where high prices and lack of attention allow smaller companies to enter the corporate lifecycle themselves.

After some discussion of Red Hat's corporate evolution and his own personal wealth, he spent a fiew minutes giving an overview of copyright law history -- primarily in the U.S.

In 1950, he said, copyright lasted for 20 years after the creation of a work -- the same as a patent. Now, 54 years later, the life of a copyright is 75 years after the death of the person or company that created the work.

Up until 1976, in order for a work to be copyrighted, it had to display the familiar "(c)" on the work. In 1976, that requirement was eliminated. All works were assumed to be copyrighted, and the public domain ended in the U.S. in a penstroke. Since 1976, he told us, it is assumed if that a work exists, someone owns it. And therefore that if you use that copyrighted work you could be sued at pretty much any time in the future.

The GPL, and Richard M. Stallman, who he called a true visionary, replaced the public domain. The license filled the void in copyright law created by the elimination of the public domain.

Patents, he said, stopped having to be specifically for inventions when the US PTO -- Patent and Trademark Office -- ran out of space to store all the inventions that had been delivered to them as part of the patenting process.

Got the money? Get a patent

Patents last for only 20 years. What can be patented has over the years devolved from a physical invention to an idea or concept. Anything, he said, can now be patented if you have the money.

He created the Center for the Public Domain with a $20 million budget and a mission to increase public awareness and debate on the issues surrounding copyright and copyright law.

Software patents are stupid, he said. When the USPTO surveyed software companies to find out if software patents should be implemented in the 1980s, the answer was a unanimous no. Lawyers and willing academics, he told the audience, managed to bring software patents into reality.

Intellectual property law, he said, is being written now -- not in actual, highly debated laws, but in hastily negotiated international treaties. Governments around the world are creating their IP law based on treaties signed among each other, which does not come up for public debate the way a regular law would.

The result is that many countries around the world are finding themselves with U.S. corporate-interest intellectual property laws.

Share    Print    Comments   

Comments

on Red Hat, Microsoft clash at open source conference

Note: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.

Nice wallhangers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 11, 2004 10:43 PM
Scott McNealy, CEO of Sun Microsystems said in a keynote address free software could have no P&L (profit and loss) because it had no P.


Where exactly is Sun's profit right now? In the past year?

<A HREF="http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid39_gci928789,00.html" TITLE="techtarget.com">Another</a techtarget.com> of Scott's quotes to hang on the wall:

Schwartz, however, sees the fad of Linux wearing off in big businesses.

"There will be a transition back to Solaris," he <A HREF="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/17/sun_ashamed_of_solaris_x86/" TITLE="theregister.co.uk">said</a theregister.co.uk>.


And let's not forget this golden oldie:

McNealy <A HREF="http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid39_gci928789,00.html" TITLE="techtarget.com">called</a techtarget.com> Linux hobbyists "jalopy-ists" who build systems piece by piece.


Sun puts its <A HREF="http://www.theregister.com/2004/05/11/sun_q3_options/" TITLE="theregister.com">third quarter loss</a theregister.com> at $985m with the options included as an expense.

<A HREF="http://www.newsforge.com/business/03/10/11/0025238.shtml" TITLE="newsforge.com">Another</a newsforge.com> billion dollar quarterly loss?

Not bad for a bunch of "jalopy-ists"! 8-P

#

Re:Nice wallhangers

Posted by: Preston St. Pierre on May 11, 2004 11:36 PM
Sun isn't seeing things all that clearly right now, apparently. They don't grasp the concept of a "plan" - one that you don't abandon with the turns of the tide.

#

Re:Nice wallhangers

Posted by: David Graham on May 11, 2004 11:49 PM

Do note that the comment was made in 1995, and shouldn't be taken in the context that it was made today.

#

Re:Nice wallhangers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 01:35 AM
The comments he made today are being put into the context of holding the same validity of his comments in previous years (he has trouble in the foresight area). I thought it was quite clear.

#

BSD in Microsoft Windows

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 11, 2004 11:46 PM
"He commented that some Microsoft executives' early comments about open source were unfortunate, considering Microsoft itself uses open source in some situations. BSD code, he said, is in Windows, and BSD is used at Microsoft's hotmail web mail service."

Next time I hear a BSDer rant about the GPL I'll just mention this to shut them up. Wanna bet Longhorn is BSD based?

#

Re:BSD in Microsoft Windows

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 12:37 AM
If Longhorn uses BSD great!. You can still get FreeBSD and that doesn't change the fact about BSD licensing. How has BSD been harmed?. BSD sources are still available. If microsoft enhances their Longhorn OS great more power to them. Maybe this may be a reason for the BSD programmers to get competitive.

GPL on the other hand reduces everybody to mediocrity because why would some vendor make exponential improvements when all his competitors get access to the same?. If you don't believe it, why doesn't the USA to open source the blueprints for the space shuttle or f16s?.

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 01:47 AM
Many developers feel that is exactly why they won't develop under the xBSD license. Why give something to a corporation that can afford to give back something, and have them give nothing.

After all, if they are capable of making "exponential improvements" to software, why not just do it all themselves? Or pay to license it from other proprietary software developers?

They believe that proprietary ownership is best, and that software should be paid for, so let them put their money where their mouth is and pay for it!

They are just hypocrits. They like the xBSD license because it allows them to get all the benefits with no downside.

In society we call that type of person or organization a parasite.

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 02:03 AM
Maybe Google is a parasite because they use the Internet to create a multibillion dollar company without giving back their search algorigthms. They use Linux (GPL'ed OS) to run their stuff without giving back to the community.

The three biggest companies are all on BSD: Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo. Care to tell me why they don't jump whole hog onto your GPL'ed bandwagon?

I don't understand your assertion:
> After all, if they are capable of making ?
> "exponential improvements" to software, why not
> just do it all themselves? Or pay to license it > from other proprietary software developers?

MS and Apple spends billions on R&D. They take good stuff from BSD and use it where they see no reason to re-invent the wheel. That's exactly what BSD license is for....why reinvent the wheel for doing mundane things like TCP/IP stacks or basic OS functions like grep/awk/sed/ls? Where they add value is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.net for MS and iTunes for Apple.

You really have a "dog in the manger" mentality that makes GPL bigots keep chasing MS and Apple's tail lights!. (case in point Mono chasing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.net and LTunes from Lindows chasing ITunes) You guys have no imagination.

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: Curtman on May 12, 2004 06:41 AM
The three biggest companies are all on BSD: Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo. Care to tell me why they don't jump whole hog onto your GPL'ed bandwagon?



WTF? Three biggest companies of what? IBM, Novell, and Google are small potatoes are they?




Nicely trolled, but you've got some serious issues with reality Anonymous Loser. I think thats just fine if developers want to hand their code to MS and Apple for free on a silver platter, but it's not my cup of tea.

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 07:23 AM
Dear Luser:

OK I should have said 3 biggest consumer software compaies - does it matter?. People around the world recognize MS/Apple/Yahoo more readily than some others.

IBM doesn't make mass market Operating systems (last time they did with OS/2 they got their butts whipped by MS. They then tried it with Pink and got butts kicked by MacOS),

Novell and big??? they are on the brink of death and like Corel are banking on Linux saving their a** --- haha!).

Google uses Linux like Yahoo uses FreeBSD, but ok compare compare their revenues $962M (see sec) for Google in 2003 and $1.6B for Yahoo (see forbes)

Nice try!. Next!!!

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 11:14 PM
shut up you puss. Troll is like pwned in video games.. Only used by unemployed egomaniacs who think they are somthing that they are not. The true way to destroy all this bullshit about patents, copyrights, monopolies, high priced buggy piece of crap software that works one day and doesn't the next (and i'm talkin all the software. even apple has glitches)... is to destroy the need for cash in our society. Until that happens, we are doomed by whomever is the most predatory and has the most guns.

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 13, 2004 08:04 PM
Companies like Google do not have to release a GPL'd version of there specialty linux kernel because the GPL does not require you to release a GPL'd version if its not publically distributed.

If its internal, its fine.

Solutions based around Linux are growing solutions based around the open-source versions of BSD are stagnant -- that actually help the open-source BSD's.

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: ezras on May 13, 2004 03:37 AM

Exactly! There is no downside. Think of the BSD license like the friend that gives you a gift without any strings attached and think of the GPL as the friend who demands compliance to their rules or demands a reciprocal gift in return.



Morally, you will feel compelled to give both friends gifts, but the GPL friend is much more likely to be resented and detested over time, whereas the BSD friend will always be a great friend. GPL friends are the anal-retentive, nuerotic people of the world and BSD friends are the truly alturistic people.



Just a quick analogy.

#

Re:BSD, enabling parasites

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 13, 2004 04:01 AM
Couldn't have said it better!. Good job.

#

Re:BSD in Microsoft Windows

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 01:58 AM
If a large company, like Novell, GPLs software that is useful and has a high demand instead of locking people into their proprietary solution, then said company gains a reputation as a free software advocate. With a reputation like that you will get noticed quickly and will gain support from the more vocal crowd, which means free advertising.

The BSD license as I see it is too extreme, gives too much freedom. There needs to be moderation, and I see the GPL as that moderation of freedom.

Besides, BSD Is Dead(tm)!

#

Re:BSD in Microsoft Windows

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 03:40 AM
By your analogy Bill Gates is a saint because he gives away some of his money for charities and donates entire buildings free to MIT. Come back with another argument sonny boy!

#

Re:BSD in Microsoft Windows

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 03:59 AM
The GPL was never about "moderating" freedom, but rather about protecting and preserving it, which is something very different.

#

Re:BSD in Microsoft Windows

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 13, 2004 07:57 PM
"GPL on the other hand reduces everybody to mediocrity". Well, GPL allows people to use latest (GPL) technology openly and at low cost. It forces improvements to be open too. So the knowledge is shared widely and the world is developping at a much higher growth rate than with patents. For individual profits there is no benefit, sure.

#

Re:BSD in Microsoft Windows

Posted by: MikeX on May 12, 2004 12:41 AM
BSDers already know this. That is the EXACT point of the BSD license - you can do whatever you want with it. There are no restrictions on use (just on giving credit). You have the freedom to do whatever you want with it.

GPL is good.
BSD is good.

--Mx

#

..my guess: Longhorn _is_ Linux. Just Stolen.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 06:19 AM
..oh yeah, Microsoft Windows Longhorn _is_ Linux.

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..is _why_ the greedy weenies needs to defeat the GPL.

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..Apple instead chose a _legal_ approach, they use BSD to replace their old junk, which _some_ of the BSD licensing _allows_.

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..now, will Greedy Weenie Bill make Sissy Boy George stop us from finding out with nukes, or with "islamic terrorism"???

#

Avoiding questions

Posted by: Curtman on May 11, 2004 11:53 PM
asked when Microsoft would allow users to save as Open Office XML files, an official standard document format. He avoided the question rather expertly.



I really hate that when articles say someone avoided the question, but don't mention anything they said. I don't doubt that he avoided answering specifically, but I'd like to know how at least.

#

Re:Avoiding questions

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 02:52 AM
Considering publishing deadlines, putting something like "He avoided the question rather expertly" provides some information that he avoided the question, without the author rushing to get the quote off a recording, or getting the quote wrong if it wasn't recorded, and instead jotted down in notes as it was being said.

From experience (though I'm no journalist) when you really want to quote someone on some over the top remark, or some notable utterance, but you miss a word or two because of someone next to you coughing, or whatever reason, you write it like the author did, rather than get the quote wrong, because if you get the quote wrong you lose credibility, and that follows you especially in the internet age. And if no one throws it in your face, it still bothers you yourself.

otoh, if the speech was recorded, I'd like to read the quote, or hear the little weasel myself.

Perhaps there will be a followup article when the conference is finished, recapping everything, and by then the exact words can be transcribed, etc.

#

Re:Avoiding questions

Posted by: Curtman on May 12, 2004 06:31 AM
It doesn't have to be a quote, but saying someone avoided something 'expertly' makes me wonder what the heck they said to elicit the opinion that they did so expertly. Even in general terms would be fine, along lines of what he talked about, maybe it was support for RTF or something? Nobody knows. I've just noticed that it's very common in online news to mention someone avoided a question, but not say what they used for the distraction, and its very rare in printed media. At least in my newspaper anyhow.



I forgot to mention that I did enjoy the article, I just had that one tiny criticism. Its one of my pet peeves. (Another being anonymous posts<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)

#

Re:Avoiding questions

Posted by: Tommy on May 12, 2004 06:51 AM
OTOH, much print (and broadcast) media normally accepts a non-responsive answer as if it were valid. Is that any better?

#

Another being anonymous posts

Posted by: Fonze on May 13, 2004 02:10 AM
Satisfied?



What's really going to be bothering you for the rest of the week is, was he really the anonymous poster?



Make sure you don't forget the question after work, during dinner, when you go to bed, during breakfast tomorrow, while working, if you have to give a speech, at lunch, work on a project in a group, etc.


<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;0)

#

I was there. His answer was confusing.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 13, 2004 09:46 AM
OK: an attendee asked Matsuow about why Office 2003 will only export in a Microsoft-patented proprietary XML format instead of adhering to the open XML standard used by OpenOffice and others. Matsuow basically danced around the question, only saying that there were too many standards floating around in the software industry. He also mentioned that the MS XML format was royalty-free (at least for now). But he never answered the "why".

- <A HREF="http://www.silentblue.net/" TITLE="silentblue.net">quanta</a silentblue.net>

#

How much cash on hand for Sun?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 12, 2004 04:42 AM
With continuing billion dollar quarterly losses, a cancelled UltraSparc chip for 2006, and analyst estimates that the newest chip won't be out before 2008, how long can Sun continue to sustain $4 billion dollar losses per year?

Considering GNU/Linux growth rates on servers at 50%+ annually, Sun's losses are only going to increase. Several analysts have concluded that it's going to get a lot worse for Sun until 2008 when their new chip comes out, and I'd agree with that assessment. IBM, Intel and AMD are all going to have cpus that are going to be far faster than anything Sun has up until 2008 when they close the gap, if they are still around. It appears that Sun thinks they can keep customers on Solaris waiting until 2008 to upgrade to their new cpu offering when that comes out. I don't think so.

So with $4 billion dollar annual losses now, and losses rising each year until at least 2008, can Sun stay in business if they lose 3 additional billion this year, $4-5 billion in 2005, $5-6 billion in 2006 and $6-7 billion in 2007?

Does Sun have $18 billion to 21 billion to lose? I'd consider those numbers on the conservative side. I don't see them reversing these losses with job cuts, as they've been adjusting headcount since last year, and they're still losing the same amount of money. And everyone else is increasing sales and profits, and Sun is still losing the same amount of money. Even a weak dollar and a strengthening economy and increased tech spending isn't helping them.

I don't remember the figures, but in the past I've seen cash on hand comments from supporters when the quarterly losses were written about, but the supporters always fail to mention the debt that Sun also has.

How much cash does Sun have, and how much debt do they have?

#

Frequent upgrades: Windows security patches

Posted by: Thomas Frayne on May 12, 2004 06:34 AM
Microsoft's position:

"The open source philosophy of "release early, release often" does not work in large corporate settings, he said. Getting a release cycle every two years or 18 months is hard enough; frequent upgrades are simply impossible, he added."

Microsoft rolls up multiple security fixes into a single patch to make it seem that they don't have many security holes. Then, after sitting on a security bug for 6 months, they release the fixes, and, when customers are hit by an exploitation, complain that customers should have applied the
fixes immediately.

The customers respond that they would have, but the security patches caused their systems to fail.

Microsoft is right. Microsoft's frequent upgrades for security patches are impossible for corporate customers to keep up with.

On the other hand, RHEL has a much longer release cycle than Microsoft's security upgrades, and releases bug fixes one at a time, so a security patch will seldom take down an RHEL machine.

#

small points.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 13, 2004 01:50 AM
Part of the idea that costumers pay for a product to be free is a bit right. It is one way of thinking about open source.
Open source in my opinion can be lots of things.
From using it just because it's free up to because you need the control, it is all that.

To say OSS is one thing or another is a personal matter for most people.

In microsofts turn is was a nice try to put OSS in a certain box like that. It would exclude it from people who feel it is something else while still stating generaly neutral things about it.

OSS does not only give loads of freedom for using it. It also makes it possible for users to see and think about it in a lot of ways.

Retep vosnul

#

Dancing around the questions

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 13, 2004 02:48 AM
I agree. Some people, like Moglen and the FSF, believe free software is a constitutional right. For others like Young and Red Hat, it's just a method for making cheap, good products. For others like Leibovitch, it's a weapon designed to level the playing field against software monopolies.

I also felt that that Matsuow (of Microsoft) was ambiguous - his general sentiment was, "The open source folk are just as capitalistic as we are." I was hoping for more of a discussion on why MS believes proprietary business models are better than open source ones, instead of just vaguely marginalizing Stallman's various free software philosophies.

Most embarassing was when an attendee asked Matsuow about why Office 2003 will only export in a Microsoft-patented proprietary XML format instead of adhering to the open XML standard used by OpenOffice and others. Matsuow basically danced around the question, only saying that there were too many standards floating around in the software industry.

- <A HREF="http://www.silentblue.net/" TITLE="silentblue.net">quanta</a silentblue.net>

#

This story has been archived. Comments can no longer be posted.



 
Tableless layout Validate XHTML 1.0 Strict Validate CSS Powered by Xaraya