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Feature: Linux
Linux desktop viability myths exploded
By Kevin Mills
on
August 05, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)
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If you look on the Web you can find many examples of experts claiming that Linux is not ready for the desktop. Headlines like Why Windows still beats Linux and Why Linux isn't ready for the Desktop are all too common. In some cases, the commentators have valid points, but often they perpetuate myths that simply are no longer true -- namely, that Windows is easier, and that Linux application software is lacking. The problem is, the pundits are comparing apples and aardvarks.
Myth #1: Linux is harder than Windows
The argument goes basically, "I tried to install Linux and <insert from list below>. Therefore Linux is hard and not ready."
- My modem was not detected
- Wi-Fi networking was not configured
- There was no hardware acceleration with the generic onboard $9 video chipset
- I could not understand how to partition a drive
All of these are valid concerns, and often frustrating, but they fail to make the case against desktop Linux, because they fail to compare apples to apples. When you buy a new PC, Windows comes pre-installed on it. You don't have to go through the process that Linux requires. The hardware manufacturer already rejected modem X, figured out that Wi-Fi adapter Y is the one to include with the computer, etc. The OEM did all the hard work for you. Even when you give a user the Windows XP CD to install, he is already ahead of the game in that he knows the OEM already configured the hardware to work with XP.
When we compare the installation experience of XP with Linux, we find some different testimony:
Windows vs Linux - Which is easier to install?So, in Windows she failed to do 4 things. In Mandrake Linux 9.2 she failed to do 3 things. Considering all the extra stuff she pulled away from her Mandrake installation, I'd say that Mandrake kicked the living *ass* out of Windows. And that's in spite of the fact that she didn't have working email. She *does* have a hotmail account, so technically she had working email as soon as she had a Web browser, but the Challenge was to check her email with a mail client, not a Web browser. (She pouted over that)
Linux vs. Windows installation comparo, Part 3
The bottom line? Another win for Red Hat Linux. It is the smoothest and easiest Red Hat installation I've seen yet. Not perfect by any means, but definitely better. Chalk this victory up to a big advantage in time and a narrow margin for ease of installation. If Microsoft had a better mechanism for applying updates, it could have been a different story.
I could find more examples, and to be fair, I could probably find examples where XP or W2K was reported easier to install than Linux, but at least these people were comparing apples to apples.
Unfortunately, finding computer hardware with Linux pre-installed is hard, but when an experienced installer gets the computer up and running, taking all the pain away, Linux is more than friendly enough.
In an ideal world, you could buy Linux pre-installed from every vendor from which you can buy Windows pre-installed. Until that happens, however, the reality is, installing the operating system is an extra task would-be Linux users must undertake. No, it's not apples to apples, because Linux's apples need to be peeled before use.
Myth #2: Lack of Applications
A wonderful excerpt from the first link above is this:
The ready availability of applications makes Windows superior as well. Go into your local computer store, or visit an online retailer. How much software do you see being sold for Windows? How much for Linux? An operating system is only as good as the software that runs on top of it. There's so little easily available software (the key here is "easily") for Linux that it doesn't measure up to Windows.
Case made, close the book -- hold on a second. This is another fatal flaw regarding comparisons. With Windows, you get an OS, a browser, email client, notepad application, and little else. Other applications may be added by the OEM (there's that magic OEM again), but the user generally has to acquire many additional applications to get a complete system that does everything he wants. By contrast, with my version of SUSE 9.0, I got 5 CDs with every application that I needed -- no trips to the computer store necessary.
In fact, trying to sell most Linux software in stores makes no sense. Imagine I wanted to sell open source software, and I try to sell K3B or GnomeMeeting at the local computer store. The only people dumb enough to purchase the retail applications would be, probably, Windows users who assume that they need to purchase it. When the distro manufacturer includes virtually every app that Mr. and Mrs. Average need for their home desktop, and when additional apps are available for free via easy update utilities, there aren't going to be a lot of sales of boxes on computer store shelves.
NOTE: Games are the exception. Linux is Windows' poor cousin when it comes to games.
I telecommute using Linux, and I use more applications than the average home user, yet I have every application that I need. Here's a list of what's included with my SUSE 9.0 distro, which would also be available from an OEM that bundled SUSE:
|
OpenOffice.org |
Replaces Microsoft Office. Works just fine with .doc, .xls, and .ppt files. |
|
The GIMP |
Never used, nor now do I need Photoshop. |
|
GnomeMeeting |
Compatible with Microsoft NetMeeting |
|
Mozilla, Opera, Konqueror |
Installed all three because I could. Take your pick, all are good. |
|
KMail, Evolution, Mozilla Mail |
Once again, I installed all three. Take your pick. |
|
VNC |
Remote desktop sharing |
|
K3B |
CD-burning software. Could it get much easier? |
|
Gaim, Kopete |
Installed both. Does virtually all flavors of instant messaging. |
|
KOrganizer |
Complete and fully featured organizer |
|
KMyMoney2, Gnucash |
QIF-compliant personal finance managers |
|
GTKam, Digikam, gphoto2, kalbum, gqview |
Have several digital cameras |
|
... |
Simply too numerous to mention. |
Well, you get the idea. I didn't and haven't gone looking for software at the store because I already have all I need.
When I set up a desktop computer for someone, I install everything I think they will want, so that when they call and say, I want to record my albums, I tell them, drag the Audacity icon to your desktop and have a blast. The number one observation from the people I OEM for is not, wow, it's stable, wow, nothing breaks, wow, it looks sharp, but wow, all this software is included free?!?.
Myth #3: It's hard to install software
Writers who say it's hard to install applications obviously have a hard time find the "Install and remove software" option under Config -> Start menu, and decided not to learn how it is done but assume it is exactly the same as Windows. It's not, but it's just as easy.
Conclusions
If they wish to avoid appearing clueless, desktop Linux pundits should tackle their reviews of Linux with the following conditions:
1) Buy a Windows box with hardware that is known compatible with Linux, just as if a manufacturer were OEMing the system using Linux.
2) Contact a local LUG or solicit volunteers to install whatever flavor of Linux you want on your system and create a dual boot configuration for you, so that you can directly compare Windows usability with Linux usability. That puts the Linux installation on a par with the pre-installed Windows setup.
In the meantime, I'm off to OEM Linux for another friend. Cheers.
Comments
on Linux desktop viability myths explodedNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
Most of us use Linux as a hobby? Linux will never appeal to the average kid?
I don't know what planet you're living on, but I suspect the last time you looked at Linux was about 5 years ago. In the GNU/Linux world there are so many choices, and these days the majority of them are very good quality.
My PC currently has 4 user accounts (myself, my wife and 2 friends who often visit). My desktop is 'cool' in that I have opted for funky icons, a futuristic background and a whacky colour scheme. It would probably appeal to most kids, although of course they could change it quite easily. My wife's desktop is 'simple' in that I have placed icons on it for all the things she regularly uses, removed extra clutter and made it as easy as possible for a non-technical user. I don't know what my friends' desktops look like as I haven't looked, but I would guess that one would have made his as similar to a Mac as possible, the other as similar to MS Windows as possible - that's their general preference. Note that this variety exists within _one_ installation on _one_ PC - the desktop can easily be made as appealing, trendy, fuddy-duddy, simple, professional, geeky or whacky as you want, and on a per user basis.
Although you could argue that having a PC at home is a hobby, the reason I installed Linux is that my previous MS-Windows XP installation was crashing all the time and didn't do everything I wanted. I would have had to spend a lot of money on extra software to get it to do most of it. With my chosen distribution of GNU/Linux (SuSE) I get virtually everything I need and want installed at zero cost and with virtually no effort beyond ticking a few boxes at installation time. Many other distributions give you the same - I have also used Fedora Core 2 and Mandrake 9.1 in the past, they are just as configurable.
I think the only area where Linux is currently less appealing than MS-Windows is in the area of games - but the gap is narrowing rapidly, and I reckon by the time my daughter is old enough to want to play games, there will be little to choose between the two on this criterion.
I don't know what planet you're living on, but I suspect the last time you looked at Linux was about 5 years ago. In the GNU/Linux world there are so many choices, and these days the majority of them are very good quality.
My PC currently has 4 user accounts (myself, my wife and 2 friends who often visit). My desktop is 'cool' in that I have opted for funky icons, a futuristic background and a whacky colour scheme. It would probably appeal to most kids, although of course they could change it quite easily. My wife's desktop is 'simple' in that I have placed icons on it for all the things she regularly uses, removed extra clutter and made it as easy as possible for a non-technical user. I don't know what my friends' desktops look like as I haven't looked, but I would guess that one would have made his as similar to a Mac as possible, the other as similar to MS Windows as possible - that's their general preference. Note that this variety exists within _one_ installation on _one_ PC - the desktop can easily be made as appealing, trendy, fuddy-duddy, simple, professional, geeky or whacky as you want, and on a per user basis.
Although you could argue that having a PC at home is a hobby, the reason I installed Linux is that my previous MS-Windows XP installation was crashing all the time and didn't do everything I wanted. I would have had to spend a lot of money on extra software to get it to do most of it. With my chosen distribution of GNU/Linux (SuSE) I get virtually everything I need and want installed at zero cost and with virtually no effort beyond ticking a few boxes at installation time. Many other distributions give you the same - I have also used Fedora Core 2 and Mandrake 9.1 in the past, they are just as configurable.
I think the only area where Linux is currently less appealing than MS-Windows is in the area of games - but the gap is narrowing rapidly, and I reckon by the time my daughter is old enough to want to play games, there will be little to choose between the two on this criterion.
My G/F who knows nothing about computers, 12yr old
son, and her 8yr old son use my Slackware box no
problems... Regardless of how easy or difficult the
install may be, Linux can be configured to do most
of what windows does and then some without spending
100-300 dollars for a freaking O/S then hundreds to
thousands on extra software.... Nuff Said...
son, and her 8yr old son use my Slackware box no
problems... Regardless of how easy or difficult the
install may be, Linux can be configured to do most
of what windows does and then some without spending
100-300 dollars for a freaking O/S then hundreds to
thousands on extra software.... Nuff Said...
Rebuttal:
What helps Linux with the "average kid" is it's cost as compared to Windows, although essentially Windows is free either through OEM packaging or piracy.
If games were to be created for Linux standardly, that would be the turning point for it, at least in the younger generation.
Another major point to help Linux would be if the OEM's were to package with Linux or No OS.
What helps Linux with the "average kid" is it's cost as compared to Windows, although essentially Windows is free either through OEM packaging or piracy.
If games were to be created for Linux standardly, that would be the turning point for it, at least in the younger generation.
Another major point to help Linux would be if the OEM's were to package with Linux or No OS.
You miss the oportunity GNU/Linux has for the schools. For practical and ethical reason, GNU/Linux is the system of choice for the schools.
We have to make our best to provide the support and apps they needs to make sure GNU/Linux is relevant there.
My bet is they will learn GNU/Linux at school and won't be afraid to use it at home and at work after. Then the home market will come naturaly but it will take more time.
---
ofset <A HREF="http://www.ofset.org/" title="ofset.org">http://www.ofset.org/</a ofset.org>
gcompris <A HREF="http://www.ofset.org/gcompris" title="ofset.org">http://www.ofset.org/gcompris</a ofset.org>
We have to make our best to provide the support and apps they needs to make sure GNU/Linux is relevant there.
My bet is they will learn GNU/Linux at school and won't be afraid to use it at home and at work after. Then the home market will come naturaly but it will take more time.
---
ofset <A HREF="http://www.ofset.org/" title="ofset.org">http://www.ofset.org/</a ofset.org>
gcompris <A HREF="http://www.ofset.org/gcompris" title="ofset.org">http://www.ofset.org/gcompris</a ofset.org>
It should be but the fact is that changing platforms with most teachers is worse than pulling teeth. They require so much hand holding and rarely have time to learn anything new. We run Linux servers but the workstations are still Windows. Even trying to move people off Office to OpenOffice or StarOffice meets resistance. It is unfortunate especially when the money that would be saved on software could go back into salaries. Too bad people don't see things in that light.
Oh, this is SOOOO true. My ex-roommate was a teacher. She has both a mac and PC. The amount of hand-holding she needs is INCREDIBLE. My 85 year old father needs less. The most simple of problems can't be solved by herself. SHe needs someone to show her everything. Excuse me, but isn't she a TEACHER? Shouldn't she have the skills to learn and research on her own? You would think so, but it's just not the case.
Think she is the exception? Not hardly. I have been involved with NetDay at several schools and have volunteered my time helping out at a couple schools trying to get teachers and staff up to speed with computer technology. This problem is the RULE rather than the exception. It's no wonder public education in the US is failing so badly. This problem is very obvious when it comes to technology, but believe me, it extends well beyond too.
Think she is the exception? Not hardly. I have been involved with NetDay at several schools and have volunteered my time helping out at a couple schools trying to get teachers and staff up to speed with computer technology. This problem is the RULE rather than the exception. It's no wonder public education in the US is failing so badly. This problem is very obvious when it comes to technology, but believe me, it extends well beyond too.
Apple's strategy for the longest time was to put computers in schools and then people would want to use them at home. It may have worked if they weren't so dang expensive. Linux needs the old Commodore strategy...
GAMES!
Even though Commodore never acknowledged the fact that Commodores were good for playing games.
GAMES!
Even though Commodore never acknowledged the fact that Commodores were good for playing games.
I think they did, especially for the VIC-20 and the C-64/128. (Maybe not so much for the Amiga.) After all, having sprites available for ML programmers is a clue, as well as auto-start cartridges.
Of course, their Office Environment (I forget the name they used) was an exception. Only the word processor ever existed and it was the most LITERAL embodiment of a typewriter I have ever seen. You had to put each piece of paper in the typewriter, hit return at the end of each line, and you couldn't even insert words and have the text flow down the page. You only had overtype (I suppose embodying white-out). It was a joke.
Later on, Berkeley Softworks had a decent OS and environment (GEOS), but they ported it to the PC and lost their shirt.
Of course I bucked the trend and wrote C and pseudo-compiled Basic programs for the C-64. My father and I developed a program to help people pass the various Ham exams. It even included graphics for the circuit problems. (IIRC these illustrations are no longer in the exams.)
It just goes to show that you can do serious work with any computer. Imagine a typing tutor on a Timex-Sinclair!
btw, I'm not sure I understand how the Commodore strategy would apply to Linux. IIRC, C-64's Kernel was open and documented (largely due to TPUG) and that's why there were so many games for it. The TI-99-4A (?) had a lot of games, but only sold BY Texas Instruments. Commodore themselves didn't sell that many games, but others made and sold THOUSANDS.
I was at a user-group meeting where a pre-teen kid was explaining to a man in a business suit how he wrote a new game every week, copied it onto tapes, and took them around to some stores to sell, for a percentage. When he was asked about how he handled the tapes that didn't sell, he said he just copied the new games over any old tapes he got back. He didn't care about last week's game, just the new one for this week. It was amusing to see the businessman boggled by the kid's insouciance to unsold inventory, normally a valuable and critical item.
parl
Of course, their Office Environment (I forget the name they used) was an exception. Only the word processor ever existed and it was the most LITERAL embodiment of a typewriter I have ever seen. You had to put each piece of paper in the typewriter, hit return at the end of each line, and you couldn't even insert words and have the text flow down the page. You only had overtype (I suppose embodying white-out). It was a joke.
Later on, Berkeley Softworks had a decent OS and environment (GEOS), but they ported it to the PC and lost their shirt.
Of course I bucked the trend and wrote C and pseudo-compiled Basic programs for the C-64. My father and I developed a program to help people pass the various Ham exams. It even included graphics for the circuit problems. (IIRC these illustrations are no longer in the exams.)
It just goes to show that you can do serious work with any computer. Imagine a typing tutor on a Timex-Sinclair!
btw, I'm not sure I understand how the Commodore strategy would apply to Linux. IIRC, C-64's Kernel was open and documented (largely due to TPUG) and that's why there were so many games for it. The TI-99-4A (?) had a lot of games, but only sold BY Texas Instruments. Commodore themselves didn't sell that many games, but others made and sold THOUSANDS.
I was at a user-group meeting where a pre-teen kid was explaining to a man in a business suit how he wrote a new game every week, copied it onto tapes, and took them around to some stores to sell, for a percentage. When he was asked about how he handled the tapes that didn't sell, he said he just copied the new games over any old tapes he got back. He didn't care about last week's game, just the new one for this week. It was amusing to see the businessman boggled by the kid's insouciance to unsold inventory, normally a valuable and critical item.
parl
I strongly suspect he is referring only to the Amiga when he says that Commodore did not acknowledge that they were good for playing games. Commodore certainly advertised this fact for the pre-Amiga models.
However, it was about this time that Commodore changed ownership, and the new ownership had the strategy that they wanted to be taken seriously as a business computer. They were afraid that the Amiga being popular as a game machine would tarnish its business image, so they purposely downplayed its game playing ability and didn't encourage game development. This was unfortunate, since it was the most game-friendly computer in existence at the time. The old management had made sure of this because games were part of their sales strategy.
In hindsight it's easy to see that the strategy of the new management was a mistake. However, you could also make a good argument that pushing the Amiga as a game machine wouldn't have made much difference in the long run because it was time for the PC to make the transition from the office to home, and people were purposely buying home PCs to be compatible with their office PCs. The truth is that we'll never know for sure.
However, it was about this time that Commodore changed ownership, and the new ownership had the strategy that they wanted to be taken seriously as a business computer. They were afraid that the Amiga being popular as a game machine would tarnish its business image, so they purposely downplayed its game playing ability and didn't encourage game development. This was unfortunate, since it was the most game-friendly computer in existence at the time. The old management had made sure of this because games were part of their sales strategy.
In hindsight it's easy to see that the strategy of the new management was a mistake. However, you could also make a good argument that pushing the Amiga as a game machine wouldn't have made much difference in the long run because it was time for the PC to make the transition from the office to home, and people were purposely buying home PCs to be compatible with their office PCs. The truth is that we'll never know for sure.
Good grief.
Why do you Microsoft zealots insist on posting such FUD?
I know of average families that use Linux.
I also know of average families that find using Windows XP complicated.
I don't use Linux as a hobby, I use it because:
1) It's free as in freedom - no lock-in for me.
2) It's free as in beer - for me it is, I haven't been 'forced' to pay a thing for years.
3) It has everything I need - Web, mail, graphics, development.
P.S. Windows doesn't crash anymore? It doesn't crash as much, it just responds less.
Your kids most likely won't use Linux because you're such a Microsoft zealot, and will lie to them about how evil penguins are. You wicked parent.
Why do you Microsoft zealots insist on posting such FUD?
I know of average families that use Linux.
I also know of average families that find using Windows XP complicated.
I don't use Linux as a hobby, I use it because:
1) It's free as in freedom - no lock-in for me.
2) It's free as in beer - for me it is, I haven't been 'forced' to pay a thing for years.
3) It has everything I need - Web, mail, graphics, development.
P.S. Windows doesn't crash anymore? It doesn't crash as much, it just responds less.
Your kids most likely won't use Linux because you're such a Microsoft zealot, and will lie to them about how evil penguins are. You wicked parent.
Wow, why don't we just go crazy. . . ku ku.
When it comes down to it, use what you like! If you like Microsoft and it is reliable (reliability is generally a software or hardware compatibility issue, rarely an OS issue WITH ANY OS) then use their products. Many people will pay for the fact that they can feel "comfortable" with a proven market leader (like them or not, Microsoft is the market share leader for desktop OS). I have no problems with most of the OS's on the market. Matter of a fact, while I write this on my WinXP box, I am sitting next to my PowerBook and installing Fedora on a virtual machine on my XP box.
OS hatred - the new digital racism!
Can't we just all get along?
When it comes down to it, use what you like! If you like Microsoft and it is reliable (reliability is generally a software or hardware compatibility issue, rarely an OS issue WITH ANY OS) then use their products. Many people will pay for the fact that they can feel "comfortable" with a proven market leader (like them or not, Microsoft is the market share leader for desktop OS). I have no problems with most of the OS's on the market. Matter of a fact, while I write this on my WinXP box, I am sitting next to my PowerBook and installing Fedora on a virtual machine on my XP box.
OS hatred - the new digital racism!
Can't we just all get along?
We could all most probably get along fine if it wasn't for the FUD that's spread about Linux/Open Source.
If everybody wasn't so scared of Linux/Open Source, they wouldn't be finding any excuse whatsoever to dismiss it.
For me it's not OS hatred, Windows isn't worth hating! I vehemently oppose Microsoft's anti-competitive actions though. I vote for competition and freedom.
I would never assume that everybody else has the same views and experiences as me. I wouldn't suggest, just because I don't like the taste of pepperoni pizza, that nobody else will ever eat it, and that spinnach pizza will soon replace all other flavors.
The phrase 'Linux zealots' is so common these days, even if you say, "Hey, Linux is pretty neat", you'll probably be labelled as one.
I decided from now on, I shall use the term 'Microsoft zealots', to depict those who are pro-Microsoft and find any argument they can, no matter how pathetic, to try and belittle Linux/Open Source.
Now I think that sounds fun.
If everybody wasn't so scared of Linux/Open Source, they wouldn't be finding any excuse whatsoever to dismiss it.
For me it's not OS hatred, Windows isn't worth hating! I vehemently oppose Microsoft's anti-competitive actions though. I vote for competition and freedom.
I would never assume that everybody else has the same views and experiences as me. I wouldn't suggest, just because I don't like the taste of pepperoni pizza, that nobody else will ever eat it, and that spinnach pizza will soon replace all other flavors.
The phrase 'Linux zealots' is so common these days, even if you say, "Hey, Linux is pretty neat", you'll probably be labelled as one.
I decided from now on, I shall use the term 'Microsoft zealots', to depict those who are pro-Microsoft and find any argument they can, no matter how pathetic, to try and belittle Linux/Open Source.
Now I think that sounds fun.
There's another reason, and this is (IMHO) why we see individuals, not paid directly by Microsoft to do so, posting about how insanely great Windows is compared to Windows.
Lots of people will lose a good chunk of their retirement fund if Microsoft dies.
Lots of people will lose a good chunk of their retirement fund if Microsoft dies.
Everyone I know uses it, and that's a pretty fair number. They all have kids, and the kids use it too.
Installing Windows on a pristine computer can be a pain in the neck. Just ask my wife. Recently, she bought a computer with no OS and tried to install Windows XP. Everything worked well, until it came time for the OS to detect the modem and network card. No drivers on the Windows CD. So, she popped in the third-party drivers CD. Of course, the CD contained A LOT of drivers. My wife, who is very computer savvy, didn't know which driver to use. After considerable trial and error, she lucked onto the right software. She also experienced some problems with the sound card.
As I said, my wife is knowledgable. Imagine what would happen if the "average" computer user ran into these problems with Windows?
And anyone have experience with PCs or laptops pre-loaded with Linux? That would be a better comparison to make.
As I said, my wife is knowledgable. Imagine what would happen if the "average" computer user ran into these problems with Windows?
And anyone have experience with PCs or laptops pre-loaded with Linux? That would be a better comparison to make.
My 14 year old sister prefers it to windows xp. Why she saw that it is stable, faster, and has all kinds of cool games to play. She surfs the web and IMs most of the time she loves it. Plus she loves all the cool wallpapers with cute penguins on them she found. She uses Xandros but wants to switch to Debian Sarge after seeing my laptop install of it. Which is probably a good idea because even though she can install from the debian repositories she has to be carefull because it is easy to goof Xandros's kde install. Oh, and she has root of her own box knows how to install software that she wants(mostly games go figure) and even switch the network routing to use a dialup connection when the high speed is down(Damn wireless high speed)
- 2 adults, 4 kids ages 7-15.
- 3 computers, 4 counting the firewall on a DSL connection.
- 0 active Windows installs (have had Windows install drive on the shelf for almost a year now).
- Kids use OpenOffice.org at home and take files to school for printing from MS Word.
- Wife uses OpenOffice.org Writer and Calc to exchange Word and Excel files with school volunteers. MS zealot on school volunteer board does not even know my wife does not use MS.
- Epson printer "just works"
- Canon printer "just works"
- Umax scanner "just works"
- Canon digital camera "just works"
- Canon digital video camera "just works"
- Kids love Frozen Bubble, Kolf and SuperTux because they come with "level builders" to create their own game levels.
- Kids love kstars
- Daughter love GAIM to IM all her friends who are running Windows
- Daughter loves GIMP and says it's better than Photoshop she has to use at school.
- Son loves Robocode to learn Java development.
- I love "apt-get install [new program]" to automatically install nearly any program anyone needs.
- My kids love Tux the penguin!
- Oh, yeah, one more thing. Complete control over internet usage AND no worries about viruses, trojans, spyware, etc. ("Dad, what is this zip attachment from my friend. It won't run." "It's a virus, delete it.")
- $0 dollars paid to license ALL the software my family needs and most all the software my family wants.
At my house, any time anyone uses a computer, they are using Linux. And they like it.
I can, however, agree with you that "linux will never appeal to the average kid." My kids are proof. They are way above average!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^)
- 3 computers, 4 counting the firewall on a DSL connection.
- 0 active Windows installs (have had Windows install drive on the shelf for almost a year now).
- Kids use OpenOffice.org at home and take files to school for printing from MS Word.
- Wife uses OpenOffice.org Writer and Calc to exchange Word and Excel files with school volunteers. MS zealot on school volunteer board does not even know my wife does not use MS.
- Epson printer "just works"
- Canon printer "just works"
- Umax scanner "just works"
- Canon digital camera "just works"
- Canon digital video camera "just works"
- Kids love Frozen Bubble, Kolf and SuperTux because they come with "level builders" to create their own game levels.
- Kids love kstars
- Daughter love GAIM to IM all her friends who are running Windows
- Daughter loves GIMP and says it's better than Photoshop she has to use at school.
- Son loves Robocode to learn Java development.
- I love "apt-get install [new program]" to automatically install nearly any program anyone needs.
- My kids love Tux the penguin!
- Oh, yeah, one more thing. Complete control over internet usage AND no worries about viruses, trojans, spyware, etc. ("Dad, what is this zip attachment from my friend. It won't run." "It's a virus, delete it.")
- $0 dollars paid to license ALL the software my family needs and most all the software my family wants.
At my house, any time anyone uses a computer, they are using Linux. And they like it.
I can, however, agree with you that "linux will never appeal to the average kid." My kids are proof. They are way above average!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^)
I have a linux family here too.
This is worth a read.
http://linux.about.com/library/bl/open/newbie/bln<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> wbie4.3.7.htm
You can have a set of concurrent multiple logins. I use 4, one for each member of my family. You can hotkey [ctrl][alt][F-key] between sessions. The sessions stay active so everything stays just like it was. This is much better than Microsoft's so called "fast user switching".
This is worth a read.
http://linux.about.com/library/bl/open/newbie/bln<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> wbie4.3.7.htm
You can have a set of concurrent multiple logins. I use 4, one for each member of my family. You can hotkey [ctrl][alt][F-key] between sessions. The sessions stay active so everything stays just like it was. This is much better than Microsoft's so called "fast user switching".
Linux family here, too. The kids dual boot, but use the Windows side only for a few games. Everything else is all Linux. For the past three years, all four of us have been using it on our three desktops. The funniest thing is when my daughter's friends come to visit, and she shows them the games she plays on Linux, and how she uses it to play ogg files like her computer was a stereo. True story, her friends immediately start complaining to their parents, "How come WE don't use Linux like [name deleted] does? Why can't I have Linux on MY computer?"
I would like to do the same.
I use Debian for everything - I used to use Windows for Quicken, but now it works fine under Wine since I added some horsepower to my main box (dual-boot Debian/Win98).
My wife uses Windows for everything, "everything" being Outlook Express and the basic card games bundled with Windows. I've tried to get her to use KMail but she won't switch unless I figure out how to get her address book and previous messages (approx 3000, *all* in the inbox in chronologic order, no other folders!) transferred over. I am certain that MS intentionally makes this difficult - it is like trying to get the roaches out of a roach motel.
My 6 year old daughter loves the "Penguin System" and would use it exclusively if I could get her educational games (Jump Start, Reader Rabbit, etc) to work with Wine, but I can't.
I recently put together a nifty small form-factor system for my daughter's room with both WinXP and Debian. This was my first real contact with XP - for a knowledgable user, it seems thoroughly dumbed-down to the point of being intentionally obfuscated.
I use Debian for everything - I used to use Windows for Quicken, but now it works fine under Wine since I added some horsepower to my main box (dual-boot Debian/Win98).
My wife uses Windows for everything, "everything" being Outlook Express and the basic card games bundled with Windows. I've tried to get her to use KMail but she won't switch unless I figure out how to get her address book and previous messages (approx 3000, *all* in the inbox in chronologic order, no other folders!) transferred over. I am certain that MS intentionally makes this difficult - it is like trying to get the roaches out of a roach motel.
My 6 year old daughter loves the "Penguin System" and would use it exclusively if I could get her educational games (Jump Start, Reader Rabbit, etc) to work with Wine, but I can't.
I recently put together a nifty small form-factor system for my daughter's room with both WinXP and Debian. This was my first real contact with XP - for a knowledgable user, it seems thoroughly dumbed-down to the point of being intentionally obfuscated.
To move Outlook email to Kmail:
1. Set up a Linux server with mail + imap
2. Connect from Outlook to imap-mail server
3. copy Outlook folders to imap-mail server
4. install Linux on wife's PC
5. use Kmail/kontact to connect to imap-mail
6. copy imap folders to local inbox
7. Be merry
To import address book:
1. From Outlook, export contact to csv file format
2. From KAddressBook/Kontact, import contacts from csv file
3. Be merry
Peace,
Josep
1. Set up a Linux server with mail + imap
2. Connect from Outlook to imap-mail server
3. copy Outlook folders to imap-mail server
4. install Linux on wife's PC
5. use Kmail/kontact to connect to imap-mail
6. copy imap folders to local inbox
7. Be merry
To import address book:
1. From Outlook, export contact to csv file format
2. From KAddressBook/Kontact, import contacts from csv file
3. Be merry
Peace,
Josep
Kmail does have an utility called KmailCVT that allows one to import Outlook Express mails boxes as well as Pegasus Mail and other mbox-style mailboxes (Evolution comes to mind). It used to be a separate app some time ago and I believe it still can be called outside of Kmail, but all you have to do is start Kmail, click in Tools > Import Messages...
Or dude, at least if she's going to keep using Windows, switch her to Mozilla instead of Outlook. Downloading Mozilla's Windows exe file is trivial, and importing is easy, too.
Try this trick: install Mozilla Thunderbird on windows, then use the import tools to get everything. Emails AND Address Book
Now you have full standard UNIX mbox files inside your profile directory inside Application Data\Thunderbird\profile\fjerwol\ (or something).
I presume both email and addressbook files are portable simply by copying them between Windows and Linux Mozilla Thunderbird.
If afterward you want to switch to something else (like kmail or whatnot), you can always export the address book to vcard format, or csv format, and simply copy your mbox files.
I've done full conversions away from Outlook Express many times: maybe slow, but exellent!
Now you have full standard UNIX mbox files inside your profile directory inside Application Data\Thunderbird\profile\fjerwol\ (or something).
I presume both email and addressbook files are portable simply by copying them between Windows and Linux Mozilla Thunderbird.
If afterward you want to switch to something else (like kmail or whatnot), you can always export the address book to vcard format, or csv format, and simply copy your mbox files.
I've done full conversions away from Outlook Express many times: maybe slow, but exellent!
My 4 year old and 6 year old love Gcompris. They actually learn something. My 6 year old is learning to play end games of chess.
http://www.ofset.org/gcompris/
Linux saves a fortune by not having to buy games.
http://www.ofset.org/gcompris/
Linux saves a fortune by not having to buy games.
1) My 14 year-old brother has been using Linux for 4 years because he likes it better than Windows.
2) I use Linux as my *only* OS. There is nothing at all that Windows has and Linux doesn't that I need. Whereas there is a lot that Linux has and Windows doesn't which I do need very much.
Cheers,
Daniel.
2) I use Linux as my *only* OS. There is nothing at all that Windows has and Linux doesn't that I need. Whereas there is a lot that Linux has and Windows doesn't which I do need very much.
Cheers,
Daniel.
"Windows doesn't crash anymore"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Maybe - it just gets "funky" after a couple of days straight running, especially if you do a lot of surfing. Eventually you reboot just to get rid of the wierd behavior.
Oh, wait. Your average Windows user just turns his machine off at night. He's never conceived of actually leaving it running and using it continuously for a week at a time (let alone months like the average Linux user.)
So he never sees this behavior and thinks WIndows "never crashes."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Maybe - it just gets "funky" after a couple of days straight running, especially if you do a lot of surfing. Eventually you reboot just to get rid of the wierd behavior.
Oh, wait. Your average Windows user just turns his machine off at night. He's never conceived of actually leaving it running and using it continuously for a week at a time (let alone months like the average Linux user.)
So he never sees this behavior and thinks WIndows "never crashes."
Blah. You guys are all kidding yourselves and, deep down inside, you know it.
I only shut down my XP box when I go away for the weekend. It runs for a month at a time with no problems. I run the latest games with no problems or delays. I run the genuine, mainstream software products that Linux/open source products (like OOo) strive to emulate. I never, ever, have to use a command prompt, wacky config files, or FAQs written by teenagers to figure things out.
I've installed many, many distros and copies of Linux from SUSE to RedHat to YellowDog. Bottom line, Linux is great for server functions and is decent as a personal desktop OS, but it's 100% crap to say that it's anywhere near as polished, compatible, and easy-to-install/understand as XP.
If you choose to put up with Linux's quirks, bruises, and inconsistency because you dislike/distrust MSFT, at least have the sack to say that's your reason.
I only shut down my XP box when I go away for the weekend. It runs for a month at a time with no problems. I run the latest games with no problems or delays. I run the genuine, mainstream software products that Linux/open source products (like OOo) strive to emulate. I never, ever, have to use a command prompt, wacky config files, or FAQs written by teenagers to figure things out.
I've installed many, many distros and copies of Linux from SUSE to RedHat to YellowDog. Bottom line, Linux is great for server functions and is decent as a personal desktop OS, but it's 100% crap to say that it's anywhere near as polished, compatible, and easy-to-install/understand as XP.
If you choose to put up with Linux's quirks, bruises, and inconsistency because you dislike/distrust MSFT, at least have the sack to say that's your reason.
I, too, leave my Win2k boxes on all the time. For the most part my file server win2k box is only powered down during power failures and I'll have to reboot my workstation about once or twice a month. Of course, I don't run Outlook (or OE) and I don't run Internet Explorer either.
However, to say that winXp is easy-to-install? Have you ever installed XP? Have you ever installed XP on a diskless machine with a SCSI card? I can't belive how much crap the Win2k and WinXP install is, even compared to Win98.
Just this week, I installed Lycoris, Xandros and SUSE 9.1 on a PIII 500. All three were incredibly easy to get installed and the Lycoris desktop ran amazingly well on 128 megs of Ram. My only complaint is that the install takes a really long time (heh, Lycoris lets you play klondike while loading the machine). After install, however, it's pretty quick. Updates are far faster than Window's Update. Overall, I'm very impressed with the experience these distros provided.
Just for the record, I stuck with SUSE. It's a bit more sluggish than Lycoris, but I liked YAST.
However, to say that winXp is easy-to-install? Have you ever installed XP? Have you ever installed XP on a diskless machine with a SCSI card? I can't belive how much crap the Win2k and WinXP install is, even compared to Win98.
Just this week, I installed Lycoris, Xandros and SUSE 9.1 on a PIII 500. All three were incredibly easy to get installed and the Lycoris desktop ran amazingly well on 128 megs of Ram. My only complaint is that the install takes a really long time (heh, Lycoris lets you play klondike while loading the machine). After install, however, it's pretty quick. Updates are far faster than Window's Update. Overall, I'm very impressed with the experience these distros provided.
Just for the record, I stuck with SUSE. It's a bit more sluggish than Lycoris, but I liked YAST.
There isn't that big of a reliability difference any more (if any) on two systems that are both stripped down server boxes. The biggest difference is that patching more often requires a reboot in windows than in linux (I reboot both anytime I patch but it's because I'm not in a business critical environment so I can afford to) but on a desktop box both have trouble and need rebooting from time to time. X is at least as flakey as anything short of a bad video driver that's native to the Windows GUI. Also apps are generally more flakey on Linux (really in X) than Windows. On a server box, unless you've got some crappy memory chomping code running both are super stable these days. On a workstation Windows is still a more stable better choice with less work even from a base install. That said due to some philosophical issues with M$ I still run Linux (Gentoo flavored) on 90% of my workstations.
You don't happen to be running the nVidia binary drivers? I have not heard of any flakiness in XFree other than from those in many years. But I do hear about people having problems with the nVidia drivers on at least a weekly basis still.
I do.
Gentoo on my AthlonXP 2600+ with 256MB RAM.
I'm currently using a LeadTek GeForce 4 MX 440 64MB AGP 8x card.
I've only had video probs a couple times with the nvidia bins. Don't even remember when the last time was.
Gentoo on my AthlonXP 2600+ with 256MB RAM.
I'm currently using a LeadTek GeForce 4 MX 440 64MB AGP 8x card.
I've only had video probs a couple times with the nvidia bins. Don't even remember when the last time was.
My record uptime was set on the third of this month, at 30 days, 21 hours. I'll give you the background though: I installed SuSE 9.1 professional on June 25th, 2004, and ran it for a couple days, shut down, went on vacation for a couple days, came back, booted it up, and used it continuously for usually at least 4 or 5 hours a day, 8 or 10 on others. At 6:10 PM, on August 3rd, I was robbed of my beautiful, almost 31 day uptime by a thunderstorm.
Also, I've got a Pentium II 400 MHz with 384 MB of RAM and an upgraded (to 20 GB) harddrive. I am happier with this than I was with Windows 2000.
Also, I've got a Pentium II 400 MHz with 384 MB of RAM and an upgraded (to 20 GB) harddrive. I am happier with this than I was with Windows 2000.
There is nothing for me to face. I have four children living at home with me. They all use Linux routinely, even the five year old. It's either that, or wait for hours on end to get to the single household Windows computer.
They like the games, and are very unhappy with me because right now, there isn't a Linux box in the houase that they can use. Our kids are 9.5, 6 and 1.5. We keep a Windows box for Reader Rabbit, but other than that, we have no use for commercial software.
My kids actually prefer Linux. They like the simple, 2d puzzle games. I like the fact that they can do whatever they want with the system because they aren't runnnig as super-user.
As family considerations go, Linux wins hands-down.
As family considerations go, Linux wins hands-down.
Are you people High?!??!
My god, your ignornace is staggering.
You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?
Well, I'm a computer person. I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!
Ready for prime time?
Are you a fucking idiot?
Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.
Stoooopid meatballs.
My god, your ignornace is staggering.
You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?
Well, I'm a computer person. I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!
Ready for prime time?
Are you a fucking idiot?
Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.
Stoooopid meatballs.
"So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux."
Um... You had to have choosen wrong. If it all fully supported Linux, it should have worked. Right?
I have installed various flavors of Linux on many different boxes. The biggest problems I have had were with odd sound cards and "winmodems." Occasionally X was configured wrong and had to be tweaked. This is over the past 5 years or so. None of these issues took over a few hours, tops, to fix.
I must say that I simply don't believe that "fully supporting linux" hardware would take 2 months to install Linux on.
Um... You had to have choosen wrong. If it all fully supported Linux, it should have worked. Right?
I have installed various flavors of Linux on many different boxes. The biggest problems I have had were with odd sound cards and "winmodems." Occasionally X was configured wrong and had to be tweaked. This is over the past 5 years or so. None of these issues took over a few hours, tops, to fix.
I must say that I simply don't believe that "fully supporting linux" hardware would take 2 months to install Linux on.
Heh! He must have missed that story about Asus refusing to support Linux on their motherboards.
I've installed various flavors of Linux on some of the oddest combinations of hardware you can imagine. A lot of it is equipment that other folks (Windows support people, mostly) thought was junk and that I rescued from dumpsters. Except for some unidentifiable SCSI adapters (that had been bundled with scanners) I haven't encountered any problems that couldn't be resolved.
I administer Solaris systems and Tru64 clusters -- as well as the occasional HP-UX and AIX box -- for a living. Perhaps the grandparent poster would benefit by branching out a bit. (Just a thought.)
Are you an idiot or something? If you REALLY bought parts that were known to be compatible with linux, put them together CORRECTLY, and couldn't get linux installed, you ARE an idiot. Did you try a true plug-and-play version like Knoppix? If that doesn't boot you probably need to take the ram out of the PCI slot and put it in the memory slot where it belongs.
A frickin monkey can run solaris on Sun hardware. That qualification gets you nowhere. Educate yourself and see how much better life is.
A frickin monkey can run solaris on Sun hardware. That qualification gets you nowhere. Educate yourself and see how much better life is.
Wow, never have I been so ashamed to be in IT and a Windows User. Please let me apologize for all of my Win Bretheren and please understand that this cranially deficient individual does not represent the 99.999% of IT professionals running Windows. Matter-of-fact, as soon as we find him, we will make sure he cannot reproduce. . .
Oh, you poor, poor man...
In the morning, when you go to work, do you sit in your car for half an hour, frustrated, before finally remembering the big vroom-vroom doesn't go until you put in the key?
When you get to work, do you stare at the blank monitor for ten minutes while you try and remember how to use the KVM switch?
Do you sometimes wake up in a coffee shop, with a sandwich hanging out of your gaping mouth, and a table full of college kids staring and pointing at you while one takes photos with his digital camera?
Don't be afraid. Many, many other people have had similar problems, including a president of the united states. If the Gipper can suffer from this terrible malady and still control the largest stockpile of nukes in the world without killing us all, I'm sure you can continue your Solaris management duties too.
But I think you should stay away from Linux. There's a "functioning forebrain" requirement you might have compatability problems with...
In the morning, when you go to work, do you sit in your car for half an hour, frustrated, before finally remembering the big vroom-vroom doesn't go until you put in the key?
When you get to work, do you stare at the blank monitor for ten minutes while you try and remember how to use the KVM switch?
Do you sometimes wake up in a coffee shop, with a sandwich hanging out of your gaping mouth, and a table full of college kids staring and pointing at you while one takes photos with his digital camera?
Don't be afraid. Many, many other people have had similar problems, including a president of the united states. If the Gipper can suffer from this terrible malady and still control the largest stockpile of nukes in the world without killing us all, I'm sure you can continue your Solaris management duties too.
But I think you should stay away from Linux. There's a "functioning forebrain" requirement you might have compatability problems with...
What were you doing for two months? It's just not that hard to install most modern distribution of Linux. Fedora Core 2 almost installs itself, put the disk in, boot. Click OK a few times. Enter some network information. Add a root password and a regular user account and that's about it. It takes about 45 minutes on a newer machine.
Can you give some specifics? What didn't work?
Can you give some specifics? What didn't work?
Well, I played basketball twice a week for 8 years and I still suck... Doing something frequently does not imply you are good at it. This may sound harsh but you sound outright shrill.
On the other hand, my boss stuck SuSE 9.1 on a Toshiba laptop in an hour and it worked. He is certainly not a Linux guy.
Really, it isn't rocket science.
On the other hand, my boss stuck SuSE 9.1 on a Toshiba laptop in an hour and it worked. He is certainly not a Linux guy.
Really, it isn't rocket science.
Here's perfect <A HREF="http://www.despair.com/demotivators/incompetence.html" title="despair.com">gift</a despair.com> for the guy who spends two months attempting to install Linux on "commodity" hardware and still can't get it working:
My god!
Companies actually HIRE people like you?
I am a tile setter. Let me say that again...
I AM A TILE SETTER...I am a High school drop out...I have NEVER attended a computer Technical school...
BUT...I KNOW HOW TO READ!
I admit, I couldn't get Red Hat to install easily, BUT...
I got SuSE 8 up no problem. In fact, you moron, SUSE recognized my Audigy sound card, Nvidia card, netgear ethernet, Pentium III (coppermine) brandless DVD drive and Phillips CD-R/W, Maxtor 20Gig HDD, serial ports, parallel ports AND EXTERNAL MODEM, AND USB mouse working fine...Oh, and the Maxtor branded Promise IDE-133 controller.
Windows 2000, and later WinXP failed to install easily because of the HDD controller card...it didn't know what it was out of the box. It also failed to know what sound I was running, let alone get the sound GOING. Also, I had to use my external Modem to get a current WORKING ethernet controller off of the net, as well as the drivers (and instruction)for the modem to operate correctly (above 28.8)under windows.
The modem installer didn't work properly under windows; I had to do what they recommend I DON'T do: add hardware>modem>etc.
And, as a coup d' grace BECAUSE OF THE HDD install requirement, not only was I forced to install a floppy drive to load the Promise driver at install time, a bug prevented me doing any more 'critical updates' a few months ago requiring a 'clean install'...of course, because I KNOW HOW TO READ, and PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT I'M DOING, I actually was able to find a great kludge for the HDD problem: install WinXP w/ the original built in 100 IDE controller, install a current driver then swap it over to the card.
If you're wondering why i'm a tile installer and not a computer tech, the reason is simple, but lost on STUPID IT folk like you: I want to respect myself in the morning. I don't want to promulgate lousy tech from an unethical company that wants to force their working habits on me. Learning HOW is unfulfilling (how do I set up windows); WHY feeds the soul (why is this app/method/organization better?) It is the quintessential HUMAN question: not HOW do I live but WHY do I live!
Your problem is not that Linux is hard, or geared to the professional, but you just want to make a pile of loot, tell people you're a computer guru and be revered for what you think you know. The truth is YOU are just repeating what someone else tells you is good.
Philosophically, your mind is CLOSED SOURCE. Not open to new ideas, or true learning, but a sponge for doctrine. In Galileo's day you would be the first priest to recommend he be imprisoned.
Unless you miss the point, I state it explicitly: If you can't figure out how to install modern linux (Hey, I gave up on linux until SuSE 8!) and resolve issues (i'm trying to get MP3 encoding for my new car stereo which doesn't recognize Ogg Vorbis) then I will GLADLY change jobs with you to prove my point.
Sadly, I doubt you could even make a capable tile Mechanic's Helper.
Oh, and by the way, about that modem: If I boot windows with it OFF, then decide to turn it on it would NOT recognize it, or know what port it was on. to get around this problem I would either have to adjust via administrative account, or reboot with the modem ON.
Suse, on the other hand, NEVER had a problem.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...end rant
Companies actually HIRE people like you?
I am a tile setter. Let me say that again...
I AM A TILE SETTER...I am a High school drop out...I have NEVER attended a computer Technical school...
BUT...I KNOW HOW TO READ!
I admit, I couldn't get Red Hat to install easily, BUT...
I got SuSE 8 up no problem. In fact, you moron, SUSE recognized my Audigy sound card, Nvidia card, netgear ethernet, Pentium III (coppermine) brandless DVD drive and Phillips CD-R/W, Maxtor 20Gig HDD, serial ports, parallel ports AND EXTERNAL MODEM, AND USB mouse working fine...Oh, and the Maxtor branded Promise IDE-133 controller.
Windows 2000, and later WinXP failed to install easily because of the HDD controller card...it didn't know what it was out of the box. It also failed to know what sound I was running, let alone get the sound GOING. Also, I had to use my external Modem to get a current WORKING ethernet controller off of the net, as well as the drivers (and instruction)for the modem to operate correctly (above 28.8)under windows.
The modem installer didn't work properly under windows; I had to do what they recommend I DON'T do: add hardware>modem>etc.
And, as a coup d' grace BECAUSE OF THE HDD install requirement, not only was I forced to install a floppy drive to load the Promise driver at install time, a bug prevented me doing any more 'critical updates' a few months ago requiring a 'clean install'...of course, because I KNOW HOW TO READ, and PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT I'M DOING, I actually was able to find a great kludge for the HDD problem: install WinXP w/ the original built in 100 IDE controller, install a current driver then swap it over to the card.
If you're wondering why i'm a tile installer and not a computer tech, the reason is simple, but lost on STUPID IT folk like you: I want to respect myself in the morning. I don't want to promulgate lousy tech from an unethical company that wants to force their working habits on me. Learning HOW is unfulfilling (how do I set up windows); WHY feeds the soul (why is this app/method/organization better?) It is the quintessential HUMAN question: not HOW do I live but WHY do I live!
Your problem is not that Linux is hard, or geared to the professional, but you just want to make a pile of loot, tell people you're a computer guru and be revered for what you think you know. The truth is YOU are just repeating what someone else tells you is good.
Philosophically, your mind is CLOSED SOURCE. Not open to new ideas, or true learning, but a sponge for doctrine. In Galileo's day you would be the first priest to recommend he be imprisoned.
Unless you miss the point, I state it explicitly: If you can't figure out how to install modern linux (Hey, I gave up on linux until SuSE 8!) and resolve issues (i'm trying to get MP3 encoding for my new car stereo which doesn't recognize Ogg Vorbis) then I will GLADLY change jobs with you to prove my point.
Sadly, I doubt you could even make a capable tile Mechanic's Helper.
Oh, and by the way, about that modem: If I boot windows with it OFF, then decide to turn it on it would NOT recognize it, or know what port it was on. to get around this problem I would either have to adjust via administrative account, or reboot with the modem ON.
Suse, on the other hand, NEVER had a problem.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...end rant
"You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?"
Yes. Do you?
"I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!"
See previous question.
"I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!"
Then you should REALLY call HR and see if you can get your pay scale readjusted. There's GOT to be a better use for that money.
My (now 13-year-old) daughter has been using Linux for three years. Linux installed on her current computer flawlessly. She dual boots for games, and I timed the install; Mandrake installed with less hassle in half the time of Windows.
I built her computer using a hardware ISA modem (before broadband), a generic Sound-Blaster-compatible PCI sound card, a $10 ethernet card, LG DVD-ROM, Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro keyboard and mouse, Epson 580 printer, and an nVidia video card. No problems AT ALL with the install. It's now networked to my Linux box (nVidia, 5.1 sound, card readers, Yamaha CD burner, generic DVD-ROM, Monsoon sound system, Grado Labs SR60 headphones, Logitech wireless MX700 mouse and keyboard, and a Epson 610 scanner) through a D-Link DI-704P router with a Compaq WL400 wireless access point (talking to my Apple Newton 2100).
It just ain't that hard. Try using a distro that's not five years old next time.
Yes. Do you?
"I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!"
See previous question.
"I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!"
Then you should REALLY call HR and see if you can get your pay scale readjusted. There's GOT to be a better use for that money.
My (now 13-year-old) daughter has been using Linux for three years. Linux installed on her current computer flawlessly. She dual boots for games, and I timed the install; Mandrake installed with less hassle in half the time of Windows.
I built her computer using a hardware ISA modem (before broadband), a generic Sound-Blaster-compatible PCI sound card, a $10 ethernet card, LG DVD-ROM, Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro keyboard and mouse, Epson 580 printer, and an nVidia video card. No problems AT ALL with the install. It's now networked to my Linux box (nVidia, 5.1 sound, card readers, Yamaha CD burner, generic DVD-ROM, Monsoon sound system, Grado Labs SR60 headphones, Logitech wireless MX700 mouse and keyboard, and a Epson 610 scanner) through a D-Link DI-704P router with a Compaq WL400 wireless access point (talking to my Apple Newton 2100).
It just ain't that hard. Try using a distro that's not five years old next time.
Pardon, sorry; I seem to have entered a timewarp and stumbled upon Adequacy.org. I'll be on my way now, off to a place where tired old trolls aren't preying on (apparently gullible) more sincere readers.
Then again, if you're sincere, you're a drooling moron, and should lay off whatever it is you're on right now. Dang. "Do you realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?" I sincerely hope you're not a native English speaker, or that you're too inebriated to even bother with proper punctuation. It could be that you're just not terribly bright. After all, you seem to suggest that because someone just buying commodity parts that needs two months to get Linux up and going on random hardware logically leads to Linux not being ready for the desktop.
I would salute you, but it's so unoriginal it hurts, and your illogical argument is the basis of nearly every anti-Linux troll I've seen in the last 7 years. Die.
Then again, if you're sincere, you're a drooling moron, and should lay off whatever it is you're on right now. Dang. "Do you realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?" I sincerely hope you're not a native English speaker, or that you're too inebriated to even bother with proper punctuation. It could be that you're just not terribly bright. After all, you seem to suggest that because someone just buying commodity parts that needs two months to get Linux up and going on random hardware logically leads to Linux not being ready for the desktop.
I would salute you, but it's so unoriginal it hurts, and your illogical argument is the basis of nearly every anti-Linux troll I've seen in the last 7 years. Die.
Lessee now...
-=> Are you people High?!??!
Why, looking for some candy?
-=> My god, your ignornace is staggering.
Says the monkey in the cage...
-=>You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?
I believe this has been made fun of enough this thread.
-=>Well, I'm a computer person. I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
-=> I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
Then quite honestly, as stated, you're obviously a moron. As my Asus motherboard, Kingston memory, and 'etc' work fine 'out of the box' on slackware linux. Apparently I've heard it works great on debian, knoppix sees it fine, redhat saw it fine (though I dislike redhat), and though I've not tried it, I would wager Suse would eat it for breakfast. I could have it on the net in 2 hours.
-=>I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!
Then you're an idiot. Solaris runs on SPARC (unless you get their borked intel version), dumbass. It's like shouting out 'I should be able to get windows working because I'm certified in DOS!'. if you couldn't get it working in 2 months, why didn't you bother posting to the THOUSANDS of support boards for linux on it, or did you think your 'expert unix skills' could pull you through, even after pounding your head against the wall for all those weeks?
Stop trolling.
-=>Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.
I did. I handed the slackware CD to an MCSE certified MS geek at work, who thought unix was a guy who had no testicles. He not only had his box running with slackware in under 2 hours, but he loves it so much, he wiped his XP server at home to replace it with a linux file server. Something about stability and ease of installation impressed him. Just can't figure that out, but I guess it was because he didn't know unix beforehand. Huh.
My cousin also installed linux in under a day. Her first problem was she inserted the CD upside down in the drive. The second because she hit eject on the CD before it finished booting. But she still had it going in 24 hours. By doing nothing more than RTFM.
-=>Stoooopid meatballs.
Ignorant putz.
You make myself and other unix admins look stupid. Stop talking.
-=> Are you people High?!??!
Why, looking for some candy?
-=> My god, your ignornace is staggering.
Says the monkey in the cage...
-=>You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?
I believe this has been made fun of enough this thread.
-=>Well, I'm a computer person. I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
-=> I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
Then quite honestly, as stated, you're obviously a moron. As my Asus motherboard, Kingston memory, and 'etc' work fine 'out of the box' on slackware linux. Apparently I've heard it works great on debian, knoppix sees it fine, redhat saw it fine (though I dislike redhat), and though I've not tried it, I would wager Suse would eat it for breakfast. I could have it on the net in 2 hours.
-=>I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!
Then you're an idiot. Solaris runs on SPARC (unless you get their borked intel version), dumbass. It's like shouting out 'I should be able to get windows working because I'm certified in DOS!'. if you couldn't get it working in 2 months, why didn't you bother posting to the THOUSANDS of support boards for linux on it, or did you think your 'expert unix skills' could pull you through, even after pounding your head against the wall for all those weeks?
Stop trolling.
-=>Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.
I did. I handed the slackware CD to an MCSE certified MS geek at work, who thought unix was a guy who had no testicles. He not only had his box running with slackware in under 2 hours, but he loves it so much, he wiped his XP server at home to replace it with a linux file server. Something about stability and ease of installation impressed him. Just can't figure that out, but I guess it was because he didn't know unix beforehand. Huh.
My cousin also installed linux in under a day. Her first problem was she inserted the CD upside down in the drive. The second because she hit eject on the CD before it finished booting. But she still had it going in 24 hours. By doing nothing more than RTFM.
-=>Stoooopid meatballs.
Ignorant putz.
You make myself and other unix admins look stupid. Stop talking.
Did you try to install Linux-From-Scratch on a 386?
Actually yes.
Gateway 386/20SX. 512K video, 4M memory, 65M harddrive (MFM/RLL)
Even got X to work (in 640x480)
Can take pictures of it incase anyone wants to see.
Gateway 386/20SX. 512K video, 4M memory, 65M harddrive (MFM/RLL)
Even got X to work (in 640x480)
Can take pictures of it incase anyone wants to see.
I'm an I.T. Manager in a Windows environment. I bought SUSE 9.1, stuck it in my Acer Windows XP laptop, and had it double booting into XP and SUSE in about 1.5 hours. Only issue was a problem with a driver for my built-in wi-fi. I've installed Windows on machines which took me much longer to get up and running. Yes, I am a tech savvy person, but at least I can say that I am worth the big bucks that I get paid. Two months to get Linux up and running, and still failed? As a tech person, you should be ashamed to admit that.
May I join the fray?
"Are you people High?!??!"
Missed that one, sorry.
"My god, your ignornace is staggering."
Pot calling the kettle black, comes to mind.
"You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?"
No, I'm a humble labourer.
"Well, I'm a computer person."
A pretty thick one by the looks.
"I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!"
Wow. I deliver firewood and make concrete building panels.
Hmmm, I've installed Linux on PCs from the humble 486 up. Couple of hours max. One reboot.
"Ready for prime time?
Are you a fucking idiot?"
See above about pot...
"Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.
Stoooopid meatballs. "
Look whose a silly boy then. Care to swap jobs?
"Are you people High?!??!"
Missed that one, sorry.
"My god, your ignornace is staggering."
Pot calling the kettle black, comes to mind.
"You do realise, that you are a computer person talking in a computer forum to other computer people, right?"
No, I'm a humble labourer.
"Well, I'm a computer person."
A pretty thick one by the looks.
"I needed a new computer. So I bought commodity parts from major manufacturers (Asus, Kingston, etc.), all fully supporting linux.
I spent 2 MONTHS trying to get some flavor of linux installed. 2 MONTHS!!!!!
I WORK ON A SOLARIS SERVER FOR A LIVING!!!!!"
Wow. I deliver firewood and make concrete building panels.
Hmmm, I've installed Linux on PCs from the humble 486 up. Couple of hours max. One reboot.
"Ready for prime time?
Are you a fucking idiot?"
See above about pot...
"Try dealing w/someone OUTSIDE your peer group for a second or two, and see how 'easy' desktop linux is.
Stoooopid meatballs. "
Look whose a silly boy then. Care to swap jobs?
I recently bought an IBM T22 from ebay.
I installed Windows 2000 & Mandrake to dual-boot.
Installation time for Windows + Office + Mozilla (required for internet security) + drivers + firewall was over 6 hours - and it's still a bare bones system compared to:-
Mandrake 9.2 wich installed in 25 minutes - and everything just worked as all drivers were automatically found.
I've been using Linux as my desktop for 4 years and I guess I'm just spoiled as I now expect to find all the software I need installed with the operating bsystem.
I installed Windows 2000 & Mandrake to dual-boot.
Installation time for Windows + Office + Mozilla (required for internet security) + drivers + firewall was over 6 hours - and it's still a bare bones system compared to:-
Mandrake 9.2 wich installed in 25 minutes - and everything just worked as all drivers were automatically found.
I've been using Linux as my desktop for 4 years and I guess I'm just spoiled as I now expect to find all the software I need installed with the operating bsystem.
You have to fuck more so you will get less choleric.
My kids use linux almost on a daily basis...all three of them (ages 7, 5 and 16 months).
Actually Windows does crash frequently still. Even Windows XP still crashes or locks up quite often, and when it isn't crashing or locking up it's being infected or attacked by virii and spy ware.
Actually Windows does crash frequently still. Even Windows XP still crashes or locks up quite often, and when it isn't crashing or locking up it's being infected or attacked by virii and spy ware.
What are you talking about when you say that kids will not use it. Kids tend to more open minded than adults. My 11 year old son uses a Mac at school and at home he has a Windows ME / Fedora dual boot PC. Both OSs are used about equaly. He uses Windows for games and Office. The Fedora is used for Firefox and Linux games.
I'm 12 and I can use a linux computer easily, in fact I use it much more than windows.
Id say "kids" make up a large percent of linux users. Im 19 and have been using it for 5 years or so.
I'm 17 and I've been using Linux for 9 months... I'm ashamed I didn't keep using Mandrake 7.1 when I got it so many years ago... I really wish I did, I've learned so much in these 9 months, image what I would of learned in the ~4 years I've had that box...
If only it wasn't for those damn winmodems and that buggy AGP card (that caused me to have to format and reinstall windows about once 6 months).
On my other computer I have Windows XP for games (Starcraft, Counterstrike, etc). Though I play all new games on my Laptop running FC2 (UT2k4, Neverwinter Nights, I don't buy many games). I installed CounterStrike a while ago on my laptop but never used it because until recently I didn't have a mouse for it (just the little built in pad, which isn't the best thing in the world for FPS)
If only it wasn't for those damn winmodems and that buggy AGP card (that caused me to have to format and reinstall windows about once 6 months).
On my other computer I have Windows XP for games (Starcraft, Counterstrike, etc). Though I play all new games on my Laptop running FC2 (UT2k4, Neverwinter Nights, I don't buy many games). I installed CounterStrike a while ago on my laptop but never used it because until recently I didn't have a mouse for it (just the little built in pad, which isn't the best thing in the world for FPS)
Well, my kids may not use it (don't have kids yet) but my mom has been using it for years. No, she isn't any kind of computer guru. She just wanted something that actually works consistently and is stable that doesn't require paying large sums of money to an evil empire...
my kids won't use linux and yours probably won't eitherWrong.
The only thing my kids envy MS-Windows for is the range of commercial edutainment software ("Grandma and me" and the like) available only for MS-Windows and the Mac. Now that there are officially more Linux desktops than Mac kicking around, I don't expect that monopoly/duopoly to last.
They play games, the older one edits stuff, browses and messages with wild abandon, everybody happy, everybody sing!
i don't understand why the author of this article says that windows doesn't come with any software. if he'd only look, you'd find a ton of apps that come with windows. Notepad, calculator, windows media player, msn messenger, built-in winzip, etc, etc, etc.
Look, when something is privatized it is always better. although it may cost more, it is always better.
Also, linux doesn't run the great new games we have today, and windows is a world standard with 95% of all computers using windows, people design everything for windows if it is actually built to be used, otherwise it is just for those people who download freeware. And I don't know about you, but last time i checked. industry standard software such as autocad, and photoshop are not free programs, and nothing in freeware even comes close to power that you get when you have real, professional programmers, who are actually paid to program, programming programs for people to use. When sa program is created by a company, it has a customer base that it is targeting and if they didn't adhere to the necessities of the customer, the customer wouldn't use it.
Although i have to say that I hate Adobe Acrobat and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.pdf files. acrobat is slow, pdf's are huge, and it is a pain to edit, or use forms in, and it just sucks. sorry, i know that was off the topic, but i had to let that out
Look, when something is privatized it is always better. although it may cost more, it is always better.
Also, linux doesn't run the great new games we have today, and windows is a world standard with 95% of all computers using windows, people design everything for windows if it is actually built to be used, otherwise it is just for those people who download freeware. And I don't know about you, but last time i checked. industry standard software such as autocad, and photoshop are not free programs, and nothing in freeware even comes close to power that you get when you have real, professional programmers, who are actually paid to program, programming programs for people to use. When sa program is created by a company, it has a customer base that it is targeting and if they didn't adhere to the necessities of the customer, the customer wouldn't use it.
Although i have to say that I hate Adobe Acrobat and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.pdf files. acrobat is slow, pdf's are huge, and it is a pain to edit, or use forms in, and it just sucks. sorry, i know that was off the topic, but i had to let that out
I will not argue that Windows comes with a lot of apps because it does. Just like Linux desktops do. Notepad, calculator, media player, messenger, winzip e.t.c. all have their equivalents on Linux desktops.
Sometimes interoperability on Windows is better than on the Linux desktop, security tends to be much better on the Linux desktop. This is a trade off, where your own preferences, security or ease of use, makes the difference.
This leaves us with your argument that the great games of today are Windows only. Even though this isn't universally true, I'll give you that point.
But are DirectX games "Desktop"? To me they aren't Desktop applications.
When I think of desktop functionality, I think of browsing, Instant-Messageing, officework, some simple 'in-window' gaming possibly, listening to music, watching TV and the security to keep all this working without cosntant vigilance, but not Doom3. The TV bit is arguably not a Desktop app either, but the way I use my software, a window in the corner of my extended desktop, I think it is.
I use both Windows and Linux at home. Linux, for everything that I consider to be Desktop functionality and Windows for gaming.
Still, I do believe that Linux isn't the Desktop OS for the masses, basically because in the current situation Linux requires a bit more 'awareness' on the users' part than Windows.
For example, using Ximian's Red-Carpet, especially with Open-Carpet strapped on, gives you access to a plethora of stable software for just about anything. You do have to know it's out there. It doesn't come with every distibution.
Oddly enough when it comes to security, it's the other way around. Then you have to be as vigilant as, well, something very, very vigilant when using Windows. The built in firewall on Windows XP doens't really cut it in my opinion.
basically what I'm saying is, Linux for the Desktop has moved forward to a point where the choice between Linux or Windows, or Mac for the Desktop has become a case of personal preference where if security means anything to you, Windows drops out almost immediately.
Sometimes interoperability on Windows is better than on the Linux desktop, security tends to be much better on the Linux desktop. This is a trade off, where your own preferences, security or ease of use, makes the difference.
This leaves us with your argument that the great games of today are Windows only. Even though this isn't universally true, I'll give you that point.
But are DirectX games "Desktop"? To me they aren't Desktop applications.
When I think of desktop functionality, I think of browsing, Instant-Messageing, officework, some simple 'in-window' gaming possibly, listening to music, watching TV and the security to keep all this working without cosntant vigilance, but not Doom3. The TV bit is arguably not a Desktop app either, but the way I use my software, a window in the corner of my extended desktop, I think it is.
I use both Windows and Linux at home. Linux, for everything that I consider to be Desktop functionality and Windows for gaming.
Still, I do believe that Linux isn't the Desktop OS for the masses, basically because in the current situation Linux requires a bit more 'awareness' on the users' part than Windows.
For example, using Ximian's Red-Carpet, especially with Open-Carpet strapped on, gives you access to a plethora of stable software for just about anything. You do have to know it's out there. It doesn't come with every distibution.
Oddly enough when it comes to security, it's the other way around. Then you have to be as vigilant as, well, something very, very vigilant when using Windows. The built in firewall on Windows XP doens't really cut it in my opinion.
basically what I'm saying is, Linux for the Desktop has moved forward to a point where the choice between Linux or Windows, or Mac for the Desktop has become a case of personal preference where if security means anything to you, Windows drops out almost immediately.
Windows doesn't really come with many USEFUL applications and utilities and THAT is the point of the article. Notepad - it's horrible - I don't think ANY of the editors on unix is worse or less powerful. Wordpad is no better. Abiword blows it away. As for office software, MS office does not come with Windows at all; it's an expensive extra. Open Office of course is available for both windows and Unix, but now comes standard on Many flavors of Linux but ZERO flavors of Windows. Calculator? Pile of crap. Much better options for Linux. Etc., etc., etc.
Look, when something is privitized (closed source monopoly is a more accurate description here), you get one flavor and it is NOT always better AND it costs more.
The IE-OE combo for example is THE most insecure pile of crap ever created in the history of the universe. Nothing is worse. Not only has it been DESIGNED to be insecure, it was also designed to NOT follow standards. Hell, even the government recommends not using IE. This of course TOTALLY blows your "privitized is always better" statement out of the water.
The whole industry around windows is about making money and that's it. That's why even simple little utilities end up costing $25-$50 where all the Linux equivilants are free.
As for games, so what. Dual boot or get a console. Out of all the people I know who use a computer at home, less that 5% play games on it. As for business - games are TOTALLY irrelavant.
Look, when something is privitized (closed source monopoly is a more accurate description here), you get one flavor and it is NOT always better AND it costs more.
The IE-OE combo for example is THE most insecure pile of crap ever created in the history of the universe. Nothing is worse. Not only has it been DESIGNED to be insecure, it was also designed to NOT follow standards. Hell, even the government recommends not using IE. This of course TOTALLY blows your "privitized is always better" statement out of the water.
The whole industry around windows is about making money and that's it. That's why even simple little utilities end up costing $25-$50 where all the Linux equivilants are free.
As for games, so what. Dual boot or get a console. Out of all the people I know who use a computer at home, less that 5% play games on it. As for business - games are TOTALLY irrelavant.
"I don't think ANY of the editors on unix is worse or less powerful"
What about ed? Ed is the standard editor, you know.
What about ed? Ed is the standard editor, you know.
First: ED is a line editor, Notepad is a screen editor.
Second, There are a lot of things that ED is capable of yet Notepad not. How about auto configure your NB's IP and DNS during booting in different environments
Third. We have a thick book on ed and that is a joy to read.
Second, There are a lot of things that ED is capable of yet Notepad not. How about auto configure your NB's IP and DNS during booting in different environments
Third. We have a thick book on ed and that is a joy to read.
Ed is more powerful than notepad. Ed supports regular expressions. Ed was originally written in 1981, many many years before notepad existed. Ed may not be GUI, but it IS more powerful in what it can do.
I have a lot to disagree with concerning this comment.
First, others have noted that some of this "great" software that is supplied with Windows is...not so great. Yes, Notepad is a total piece of junk, for one. I don't trust Microsoft, so I have never trusted their calculator, therefore have never used it, and can't make a judgement on it.
Now let's talk about "privatized" software (really a misnomer in my opinion).
That is old-think. I don't think a reasonable person can say that collaboration is unproductive; quite the opposite. You often get far better applications from the open-source community than from commercial providers. Open-Source collaboration is perhaps becoming the "new way" to build software. IBM and others are finding this out.
As far as games
First, others have noted that some of this "great" software that is supplied with Windows is...not so great. Yes, Notepad is a total piece of junk, for one. I don't trust Microsoft, so I have never trusted their calculator, therefore have never used it, and can't make a judgement on it.
Now let's talk about "privatized" software (really a misnomer in my opinion).
That is old-think. I don't think a reasonable person can say that collaboration is unproductive; quite the opposite. You often get far better applications from the open-source community than from commercial providers. Open-Source collaboration is perhaps becoming the "new way" to build software. IBM and others are finding this out.
As far as games
Linux Desktop
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 05, 2004 05:21 PM#