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Feature: Unix
Analysis: How Sun plans to build Solaris open source community
By Chris Preimesberger
on
November 16, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)
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SAN JOSE, Calif. -- OK, so Sun Microsystems, which claims to be the second-highest contributor overall in the open source software community (BSD is No. 1), is seriously getting back into the open source mix, thanks to the newly opened Solaris 10. In the past, anybody who had to sign a licensing agreement with Sun involving either Solaris or Java software would certainly not agree with the assessment that Sun was open source anything. Times have changed, and so has Sun. Apparently.
At the Solaris 10 launch event here at the Technology Museum of Innovation in San Jose today, Sun Chairman Scott McNealy was asked how Sun was planning to gain the trust of the open source community, so it could realize its strategic mission of building a thriving new community around its front-line enterprise operating system. McNealy looked a roomful of reporters in the eyes, put aside the spin for a minute, and said: "We will have to earn it (trust). We have to step it up. We will have to show them by our products and actions that we are serious about doing this right."
McNealy then alluded to the recent Kodak patent infringement lawsuit, in which the company had to pony up $92 million to settle out of court. The infringement centered around an activation feature which allows the system to "wake up" or "bring from disk into memory" a Java technology object or EJB on a remote machine, as needed. Turns out Kodak, not Sun, developed that feature during a co-op project in the 1990s. Somehow, it got incorporated into Java, and Sun was forced to surrender.
"We had our 'Kodak moment' a month ago," McNealy said. "OK, so we took a bullet for the JCP (Java Community Process), and we don't think that will be the last time someone will take a shot at us. But this is what we're prepared to do; how many Linux companies have the wherewithall to absorb something like that? Not many. We can do it; we've got money in the bank and lots of smart people who work for us."
Sun does have money in the bank. As of this month, the Santa Clara-based corporation had $7.4 billion in cash, give or take a few hundred thousand.
Sun now sees itself as the "guardian" of both Java and Solaris. Java has long had its own community; Sun is now planning to build a new one immediately around Solaris, the BSD/Unix System V-based system that has been the company's bread-and-butter OS for more than two decades.
How will the company convince open source and enterprise developers to join up to yet another specialized community?
"We're not going to tell Solaris developers exactly how to create and run it (the community)," Sun President Jon Schwartz said. "We may design 20 percent of how it's going to work. We'd like the community to drive itself. We'll give it all the corporate support we can, as Scott said, but eventually, Sun's going to lose control of Solaris, and it will belong to the community. So the community itself should set the guidelines and run itself."
The new Solaris will actually become available for production release in January. Schwartz said the company hasn't yet decided which license it's going to use. In fact, there may be a completely new license drawn up for Solaris.
"We should know a bit more toward the end of the year," Schwartz said. "We still debating how we're going to license it. But that's a government matter for the lawyers."
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on Analysis: How Sun plans to build Solaris open source communityNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
Only once they have released Solaris 10 under an Open Source licence will we know if this is actually a Free Software licence, and if so which one.
Free and Open are two different things. Solaris will be free in the sense that it won't cost you money to get it, but non-free in the sense that you cannot make a copy and give it to your neighbour. It will be open in the sense that you can see the code, but closed in the sense that you cannot distribute modified versions of the code.
At least that is my understanding. I'm still hopeful that they will choose a license more friendly to the open/free software community. Otherwise, there is little difference between them and Microsoft's shared source license.
Free and Open are two different things. Solaris will be free in the sense that it won't cost you money to get it, but non-free in the sense that you cannot make a copy and give it to your neighbour. It will be open in the sense that you can see the code, but closed in the sense that you cannot distribute modified versions of the code.
At least that is my understanding. I'm still hopeful that they will choose a license more friendly to the open/free software community. Otherwise, there is little difference between them and Microsoft's shared source license.
The exact difference between "open source" and "free software" may be disputed, but not that both may be distributed freely.
Sun is on the Dark Side, they can't be trusted and only idiots would join that "community".
Sun is on the Dark Side, they can't be trusted and only idiots would join that "community".
Sun is on the Dark Side, they can't be trusted and only idiots would join that "community".
To some extent that is true of every corporate ally that exists in Free Software. IBM is our friend, not because they have some righteous goal to bring free software to the masses, but because they see its potential to open doors that would otherwise be closed to them. The same is true of Sun, though they might not see that yet.
To some extent that is true of every corporate ally that exists in Free Software. IBM is our friend, not because they have some righteous goal to bring free software to the masses, but because they see its potential to open doors that would otherwise be closed to them. The same is true of Sun, though they might not see that yet.
Re:The proof of the pudding is in the eating
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 18, 2004 09:12 AM
Personally, I think Sun has done lots to show that they can't actually be trusted.
But they also did things which show they can be trusted, yes? Trusted by who,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..?
Lets try not being a zealot who only argues based on the 'negative' aspects.. this is not groklaw.net..
But they also did things which show they can be trusted, yes? Trusted by who,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..?
Lets try not being a zealot who only argues based on the 'negative' aspects.. this is not groklaw.net..
1993
Sun announced that SunOS, release 4.1.4, would be its last release of an operating system based on BSD. Sun saw the writing on the wall and moved to System V, release 4, which they named Solaris. System V, release 4 (SRV4) was a merger of System V and BSD, incorporating the important features found in SunOS.
http://unixed.com/Resources/history_of_solaris.pd<nobr>f<wbr></nobr>
Sun announced that SunOS, release 4.1.4, would be its last release of an operating system based on BSD. Sun saw the writing on the wall and moved to System V, release 4, which they named Solaris. System V, release 4 (SRV4) was a merger of System V and BSD, incorporating the important features found in SunOS.
http://unixed.com/Resources/history_of_solaris.pd<nobr>f<wbr></nobr>
Almost accurate. Sun called the merger of System V relase 4 and their BSD as Solaris 2 (SunOS 5). They renamed SunOS 4.1.4 Solaris 1.
Look mom, he invented the gun powder!
I think all of this could have been done years ago with unix, but for some legal muck involving old licences. I can't see how sun is getting around this.
Good question. Jem Matzan and I will be addressing the issues Sun faced in opening Solaris in the next couple of days here on NewsForge. It took the company 5 full years to figure out how to do this.
<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/cp
So, sun has a licensing agreement with SCO and solaris is based on the license which SCO "owns". Also SUN has a cross licensing deal with the devil<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. er I mean Microsoft.
Sure let get my hands dirty digging into solaris<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..
go ahead, eat of the forbidden fruit<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. you shall surely not die<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Sure let get my hands dirty digging into solaris<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..
go ahead, eat of the forbidden fruit<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. you shall surely not die<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
to follow the path of Sco.
Newflash: Oracle drops move to Linux, adopts Solaris 10 instead.
Not.
The only right move Sun made was adopting Opteron. That's it.
Solaris 10, open source? Maybe. We'll find out sometime next year. If there are no delays.
Free software? Not a chance. Comparable to Linux & GPL? Not a chance.
Interesting that Sun brings up BSD. Where's BSD today? Why hasn't BSD seen the adoption, buzz, excitement, market share growth that Linux has? BSD may be a great OS. So is OpenBSD, one of the "flavors". But where is the growth rate comparable to Linux? Are companies and organizations adopting OpenBSD for security implementations? No. They are taking the pieces of SELinux for that. Fedora is adopting SELinux. Debian testing servers are starting to see parts of SELinux. Where is the rush to FreeBSD?
BSD enjoyed a great time in the spotlight. And Linux has roots in BSD. But BSD is dying, and Linux is taking the world by storm. Sun is so anti-Linux that they had to use BSD. They are competing with not Linux, but the GPL. Linux is succeeding where BSD could never reach because of the GPL. That's it. It's that simple. The world is moving to Linux, and nothing Sun nor Microsoft can do can stop Linux. Nothing.
The only way that Solaris 10 can be considered good for Sun would be if they are using Solaris 10 to stop the bleeding while they work on a Linux strategy. Because if they continue to fight Linux, they are doomed. Doomed. If wacko Scott was successfully gagged, and others within Sun succeeded in pushing Solaris 10 as a temporary stop-gap while they feverishly work on a Linux strategy THAT INCLUDES LINUX, then maybe Sun has a chance to make it to 2007-8. If they plan on pushing Solaris 10, with the hopes that Solaris can live next to Linux, they are doomed. Doomed. There is no chance, no existence for Solaris in the next few years. No one will bother because everyone will be on Linux, including current Sun customers. Sure, they'll keep some customers, just as OS/2 is still in use somewhere. But Sun's glory days are over, and all they have to look forward to are glory holes these days.
For the Sun employees who still haven't seen the writing on the wall, don't pin your future on Solaris 10. Get the resumes ready, start making phone calls. Your skills are useful and needed in the Linux community. You will be welcomed with open arms. Don't wait for another massive layoff, when you will be competing with thousands of others all marketing the same skills to the same companies. The future is Linux, not Solaris. Don't buy the hype, because that's all it is.
And for the author, and the multitude of Sun fans and employees that will be astroturfing a response, why is Sun's cash position always touted, and their liabilities always ignored? Last information I have is cash on hand for Sun, 9/26/04, 3.5 billion (including short term investments) plus 3.9 billion in long term investments (that's not cash), and 7.2 billion in total liabilities. They may have quite a bit of cash on hand, but they are still losing money, and they owe a lot of money.
Wall street is still not happy with the Sun story. And they won't be until they start turning profits. If they can't turn profits by growing the company through increasing market share and other measures, they layoff employees. Got that Sun employees? The pressure from Wall street is always there. If they can't grow the company through increasing market share, they layoff employees. That means you, Sun employees. You can keep hoping for China adopting another million seats to ensure your job, or you can be proactive in your future. It's up to you to make the choice. Will you control your own destiny? Or leave it in the hands of a lunatic? Now is the time to decide, not when it is too late.
Newflash: Oracle drops move to Linux, adopts Solaris 10 instead.
Not.
The only right move Sun made was adopting Opteron. That's it.
Solaris 10, open source? Maybe. We'll find out sometime next year. If there are no delays.
Free software? Not a chance. Comparable to Linux & GPL? Not a chance.
Interesting that Sun brings up BSD. Where's BSD today? Why hasn't BSD seen the adoption, buzz, excitement, market share growth that Linux has? BSD may be a great OS. So is OpenBSD, one of the "flavors". But where is the growth rate comparable to Linux? Are companies and organizations adopting OpenBSD for security implementations? No. They are taking the pieces of SELinux for that. Fedora is adopting SELinux. Debian testing servers are starting to see parts of SELinux. Where is the rush to FreeBSD?
BSD enjoyed a great time in the spotlight. And Linux has roots in BSD. But BSD is dying, and Linux is taking the world by storm. Sun is so anti-Linux that they had to use BSD. They are competing with not Linux, but the GPL. Linux is succeeding where BSD could never reach because of the GPL. That's it. It's that simple. The world is moving to Linux, and nothing Sun nor Microsoft can do can stop Linux. Nothing.
The only way that Solaris 10 can be considered good for Sun would be if they are using Solaris 10 to stop the bleeding while they work on a Linux strategy. Because if they continue to fight Linux, they are doomed. Doomed. If wacko Scott was successfully gagged, and others within Sun succeeded in pushing Solaris 10 as a temporary stop-gap while they feverishly work on a Linux strategy THAT INCLUDES LINUX, then maybe Sun has a chance to make it to 2007-8. If they plan on pushing Solaris 10, with the hopes that Solaris can live next to Linux, they are doomed. Doomed. There is no chance, no existence for Solaris in the next few years. No one will bother because everyone will be on Linux, including current Sun customers. Sure, they'll keep some customers, just as OS/2 is still in use somewhere. But Sun's glory days are over, and all they have to look forward to are glory holes these days.
For the Sun employees who still haven't seen the writing on the wall, don't pin your future on Solaris 10. Get the resumes ready, start making phone calls. Your skills are useful and needed in the Linux community. You will be welcomed with open arms. Don't wait for another massive layoff, when you will be competing with thousands of others all marketing the same skills to the same companies. The future is Linux, not Solaris. Don't buy the hype, because that's all it is.
And for the author, and the multitude of Sun fans and employees that will be astroturfing a response, why is Sun's cash position always touted, and their liabilities always ignored? Last information I have is cash on hand for Sun, 9/26/04, 3.5 billion (including short term investments) plus 3.9 billion in long term investments (that's not cash), and 7.2 billion in total liabilities. They may have quite a bit of cash on hand, but they are still losing money, and they owe a lot of money.
Wall street is still not happy with the Sun story. And they won't be until they start turning profits. If they can't turn profits by growing the company through increasing market share and other measures, they layoff employees. Got that Sun employees? The pressure from Wall street is always there. If they can't grow the company through increasing market share, they layoff employees. That means you, Sun employees. You can keep hoping for China adopting another million seats to ensure your job, or you can be proactive in your future. It's up to you to make the choice. Will you control your own destiny? Or leave it in the hands of a lunatic? Now is the time to decide, not when it is too late.
As the parent notes, the world is moving to Linux, not BSD. And that is only due to the different licenses. GPL is copyleft, the BSD license is "MS, please rip my TCP/IP stack and put it into Windows".
Solaris isn't such a bad OS, and if Linux would compete with another OS, it would be Solaris. Although the future is hopefully mainly Linux, other OSes on the market would only be a good thing.
Solaris isn't such a bad OS, and if Linux would compete with another OS, it would be Solaris. Although the future is hopefully mainly Linux, other OSes on the market would only be a good thing.
Yes, but suppose Linux starts getting hit with IP lawsuits (more serious than SCO's). As McNealy points out, even the big boys have to shell out megabucks to settle the nuisance lawsuits sometimes. Who's going to shell out for Linux? IBM or Novell might, but we'll see.
So if that bad scenario happens to Linux, I expect to see a lot of the "Sun is doomed; they might have done good work once, but nobody cares anymore, history is not on their side" posters switch into "WAAAAH! The government should pass laws to protect us from this kind of crap! The innovators are getting screwed, this is totally unfair!!!" mode.
So if that bad scenario happens to Linux, I expect to see a lot of the "Sun is doomed; they might have done good work once, but nobody cares anymore, history is not on their side" posters switch into "WAAAAH! The government should pass laws to protect us from this kind of crap! The innovators are getting screwed, this is totally unfair!!!" mode.
An "Internet Protocol" lawsuit? Whats that? Define IP idiot. Define how "IP" is going to "stop" linux. Cluetrain for you and others spouting this crap about IP lawsuits. Patents on software mean positively jack shit nothing. Anyone with any kind of common sense that reads one can see they are bullshit on their face.
BSD is dying and Sun won't be around in 2007? Fascinating theory.
Can you list any countries outside the US that are adopting BSD at or near the same rate as Linux?
Can you list any company announcements that are dropping Windows or proprietary Unix for BSD flavors either on the desktop or servers?
Can you list any joint development efforts headed by governments outside the US that incorporate BSD as the main platform instead of Linux?
Can you explain why you believe BSD has a chance in hell against the Linux juggernaut?
I didn't think so.
Can you list any company announcements that are dropping Windows or proprietary Unix for BSD flavors either on the desktop or servers?
Can you list any joint development efforts headed by governments outside the US that incorporate BSD as the main platform instead of Linux?
Can you explain why you believe BSD has a chance in hell against the Linux juggernaut?
I didn't think so.
If Sun continues slowaris dreams, they are headed down the same path as Sco. By 2007? They'll probably be about the same size and have the same market share as SCO. And have the same strategy, lawsuits.
If they succeed in gagging Scott and sticking him in a closet, and drop Solaris in favor of Linux, then they have a chance of turning their failing business around. But the window is closing fast.
If they succeed in gagging Scott and sticking him in a closet, and drop Solaris in favor of Linux, then they have a chance of turning their failing business around. But the window is closing fast.
SunOS was based on BSD over a decade ago.
Bashing something that Sun moved away from 11 years ago is a very strange way of attacking Sun today!
Bashing something that Sun moved away from 11 years ago is a very strange way of attacking Sun today!
Like "Robber Baron Bill" let's all look for a lot of something MS-SUN will be taking away.
I wish they would go ahead and die already
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 17, 2004 12:00 AM
This is getting painful to watch! But there's something about it that makes me keep watching...
Sun will never be forgiven. They are only second to Microsoft in terms of SCO support and they did it to hurt Linux.
Fuck Sun.
Fuck Sun.
I have a Sun Enterprise 250 that we picked up from a failed<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.com. We got Gentoo to run on it, but it never ran quite right. I downloaded Solaris 10 thinking that it would magically install, but the installer keeps failing. I cannot partition the drives, and Solaris will not even recognize our Sun ethernet hardware. Their documentation is awful! If Sun really wants the Linux enthusiasts to switch they are going to need to put on a much better show!
I personally would like to see more articles on the actual OS than on Sun's strategy. Sun is all talk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I personally would like to see more articles on the actual OS than on Sun's strategy. Sun is all talk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The fact that neither Linux nor Solaris work properly on your E250 suggest that perhaps your E250 is faulty - I've got an E450 that works fine with both Solaris and Debian (give or take a few Debian packages not working because they're untested on SPARC); the former has much better documentation IMHO. There's something about having a three-foot bookshelf full of manuals that says "you will find what you're looking for" - did you try searching SunSolve?
Good luck to them, but the odds aren't good
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 17, 2004 01:06 AM
It took Mozilla 6 years, and there was no 'big' competing Open Source browser for them to compete with. OpenOffice.org is the most featureful Free office suite, but after 4 years there still isn't much of a development community around it.
Building a community is hard, and the existence of Linux and the BSDs means that there isn't much excitement around Open Solaris. Who's going to bother learning to hack on this thing?
They'll probably end up like the Firebird database project. Nice tech, would have been a huge hit ten years ago. But the handful of technological advantages aren't enough to overcome the incredible learning curve associated with hacking on a new code base.
Building a community is hard, and the existence of Linux and the BSDs means that there isn't much excitement around Open Solaris. Who's going to bother learning to hack on this thing?
They'll probably end up like the Firebird database project. Nice tech, would have been a huge hit ten years ago. But the handful of technological advantages aren't enough to overcome the incredible learning curve associated with hacking on a new code base.
Solaris 10 is going to be the leading server, and later workstaion operating system, including on x86 and amd64 machines. And it will be just as fast on those platforms as on Ultrasparc.
There is no Linux match for N1 Grd Containers, DTrace, and ZFS. And no, User mode Linux, kprobes, and Reiser4 will not do it.
Solaris 10 also has better network performance than Linux with the new TCP/IP stack.
Before people say that this is 'vaporware' they should know that it is possible to download Solaris Express to try it out.
And all of this will be available for free under an open source license. For customers such as me that demand support, we can pay extra for it.
And by the way, Oracle is going to be certified for Solaris 10.
There is no Linux match for N1 Grd Containers, DTrace, and ZFS. And no, User mode Linux, kprobes, and Reiser4 will not do it.
Solaris 10 also has better network performance than Linux with the new TCP/IP stack.
Before people say that this is 'vaporware' they should know that it is possible to download Solaris Express to try it out.
And all of this will be available for free under an open source license. For customers such as me that demand support, we can pay extra for it.
And by the way, Oracle is going to be certified for Solaris 10.
DTrace and ZFS are nice but hardly unmatched. While DTrace is particuarly nice, somehow we have got along without it for a long, long time... ZFS is no big deal, it's just a modern filesystem... Reiser4 on the other hand is approaching theoretical hardware throughput and has many more features - not well taken.
N1 is also no big deal. Xen and UML are both excellent alternatives that are dramatically less expensive. Didn't know about Xen? Too bad for you.
N1 is also no big deal. Xen and UML are both excellent alternatives that are dramatically less expensive. Didn't know about Xen? Too bad for you.
> While DTrace is particuarly nice, somehow we have got along without it for a long, long time
Just because operating systems have managed to get by without DTrace does not mean that it is not needed. DTrace would be very useful to get to the source of system and application bottlenecks, which limit performance. It is even possible to write scripts in the language D for complex routines. A tool such as DTrace could save millions of dollars in a large organization.
> ZFS is no big deal, it's just a modern filesystem... Reiser4 on the other hand is approaching theoretical hardware throughput and has many more features - not well taken
ZFS IS a big deal. It is the only 128 bit file system, which means you could theoretically have 16 billion times higher capacity than today's file system. Also, it protects its data with 64 bit checksums, enabling high data integrity. And finally, it's self healing like the rest of Solaris 10.
> N1 is also no big deal. Xen and UML are both excellent alternatives
I have heard of both of those alternatives and they are inferior. User Model Linux uses virtual machines, but N1 Grid Containers are simply consolidation partitions. Virtual machines with UML run a new instance of Linux. This consumes a lot more resources than N1 Grid Containers, and it has higher management costs because of the need to add patches and software updates. Also, UML has a extremely low effect on your server to administrator ratio.
OS images in virtual machines will also take a huge performance hit; N1 Grid Containers won't.
Just because operating systems have managed to get by without DTrace does not mean that it is not needed. DTrace would be very useful to get to the source of system and application bottlenecks, which limit performance. It is even possible to write scripts in the language D for complex routines. A tool such as DTrace could save millions of dollars in a large organization.
> ZFS is no big deal, it's just a modern filesystem... Reiser4 on the other hand is approaching theoretical hardware throughput and has many more features - not well taken
ZFS IS a big deal. It is the only 128 bit file system, which means you could theoretically have 16 billion times higher capacity than today's file system. Also, it protects its data with 64 bit checksums, enabling high data integrity. And finally, it's self healing like the rest of Solaris 10.
> N1 is also no big deal. Xen and UML are both excellent alternatives
I have heard of both of those alternatives and they are inferior. User Model Linux uses virtual machines, but N1 Grid Containers are simply consolidation partitions. Virtual machines with UML run a new instance of Linux. This consumes a lot more resources than N1 Grid Containers, and it has higher management costs because of the need to add patches and software updates. Also, UML has a extremely low effect on your server to administrator ratio.
OS images in virtual machines will also take a huge performance hit; N1 Grid Containers won't.
Before people say that this is 'vaporware' they should know that it is possible to download Solaris Express to try it out.
Don't tell them that. They are going to suffer one of the most painful installs that you can imagine only to find themselves without a compiler, without 3D hardware acceleration for their X11 server, without a LOT of the software they take for granted in Linux, and with a horribly out dated Gnome desktop that crashes when you try to do something as simple as drag a desktop icon. Anyone out there experienced the hell that exists in RPM distro's when you start mixing packages from different vendors? Well get ready for the mess you'll have in Solaris when you have to hunt through Sunfreeware.com, openpkg.org, blastwave.org, ibiblio, and a bunch of others.
Been there done that. I'm back on Gentoo, and loving it. Sun if you're listening: openning the OS isn't going to help if the compiler still costs $2000, and GCC/binutils doesn't work properly on it.
Don't tell them that. They are going to suffer one of the most painful installs that you can imagine only to find themselves without a compiler, without 3D hardware acceleration for their X11 server, without a LOT of the software they take for granted in Linux, and with a horribly out dated Gnome desktop that crashes when you try to do something as simple as drag a desktop icon. Anyone out there experienced the hell that exists in RPM distro's when you start mixing packages from different vendors? Well get ready for the mess you'll have in Solaris when you have to hunt through Sunfreeware.com, openpkg.org, blastwave.org, ibiblio, and a bunch of others.
Been there done that. I'm back on Gentoo, and loving it. Sun if you're listening: openning the OS isn't going to help if the compiler still costs $2000, and GCC/binutils doesn't work properly on it.
> without a compiler, without 3D hardware acceleration for their X11 server
GCC will be included, and it will be possible to upgrade to the Sun compiler. Nvidia have also announced their partnership with Sun to provide their GPU drivers for Solaris. You can see the result of this work in Sun Java workstations.
> without a LOT of the software they take for granted in Linux, and with a horribly out dated Gnome desktop
Solaris 10 is able to run Linux software with Project Janus. ISVs will also port and certify their software for Solaris. I have also been able to run all of the open source software I use (KDE, Mozilla, Kmail, etc.) with Solaris/Ultrasparc(Blade 2500) and I have compared this with SuSe running on an Opteron workstation, and there was even an improvement in stability.
The outdated Gnome desktop is only on Solaris 9, where CDE is also available (a dream to use). Solaris 10 will ship with Java Desktop System.
I had a very easy task installing this software. I accept the fact that SuSe 9.2 is a lot better as an out-of-the-box desktop system for a Windows/Mac refugee, but I am not a new user and I spend a very small time installing the sotware compared to how long I use it.
GCC will be included, and it will be possible to upgrade to the Sun compiler. Nvidia have also announced their partnership with Sun to provide their GPU drivers for Solaris. You can see the result of this work in Sun Java workstations.
> without a LOT of the software they take for granted in Linux, and with a horribly out dated Gnome desktop
Solaris 10 is able to run Linux software with Project Janus. ISVs will also port and certify their software for Solaris. I have also been able to run all of the open source software I use (KDE, Mozilla, Kmail, etc.) with Solaris/Ultrasparc(Blade 2500) and I have compared this with SuSe running on an Opteron workstation, and there was even an improvement in stability.
The outdated Gnome desktop is only on Solaris 9, where CDE is also available (a dream to use). Solaris 10 will ship with Java Desktop System.
I had a very easy task installing this software. I accept the fact that SuSe 9.2 is a lot better as an out-of-the-box desktop system for a Windows/Mac refugee, but I am not a new user and I spend a very small time installing the sotware compared to how long I use it.
where CDE is also available (a dream to use)
You lost all credibility a while ago, but thats the clincher. I didn't actually ROFL, but I did LOL a bit.
I hope Sun pays you well for your advocacy, it must take a lot to actually convince yourself of these things.
You lost all credibility a while ago, but thats the clincher. I didn't actually ROFL, but I did LOL a bit.
I hope Sun pays you well for your advocacy, it must take a lot to actually convince yourself of these things.
> You lost all credibility a while ago, but thats the clincher
I said I liked CDE, but I never said I didn't like KDE and Gnome. And if I believe CDE is a simple and easy to use desktop environment that allows me to get work done efficiently, there is absolutely nothing you can say to contradict that.
> I hope Sun pays you well for your advocacy, it must take a lot to actually convince yourself of these things.
I am NOT paid by Sun. Period. Zealots have a stupid mentality restricting them to questioning my credibility as responses.
I said I liked CDE, but I never said I didn't like KDE and Gnome. And if I believe CDE is a simple and easy to use desktop environment that allows me to get work done efficiently, there is absolutely nothing you can say to contradict that.
> I hope Sun pays you well for your advocacy, it must take a lot to actually convince yourself of these things.
I am NOT paid by Sun. Period. Zealots have a stupid mentality restricting them to questioning my credibility as responses.
And if I believe CDE is a simple and easy to use desktop environment that allows me to get work done efficiently, there is absolutely nothing you can say to contradict that.
Other than the fact there are much better minimalist environments out there you mean?
Other than the fact there are much better minimalist environments out there you mean?
I don't recall them EVER discerning the difference between Open Source Software and Free/Gratis Software. Do they even understand the difference between the two?
As I was looking at the Presentation by McNealy on the Solaris 10 release. This is NOT going to be Open Source Software, but will be Free as in cost software. You ain't gonna get the source code.
http://zdnet.com.com/1606-2-5453325.html
In any case, no matter what their mental state is these days, we'll see it when we see it. And I bet on Sun setting us up for another SCO-like fiasco with the recent Microsoft "partnership" they got paid for.
Nobody here trusts these people anymore(except diehard Slowlaris fans). If it wasn't for Open Office, there would really be nothing to say about these folks. I like their OS and I wish them well. But here is the reality of the situation. In short- fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. The first date is long since over, and flowers ain't cut it.
As I was looking at the Presentation by McNealy on the Solaris 10 release. This is NOT going to be Open Source Software, but will be Free as in cost software. You ain't gonna get the source code.
http://zdnet.com.com/1606-2-5453325.html
In any case, no matter what their mental state is these days, we'll see it when we see it. And I bet on Sun setting us up for another SCO-like fiasco with the recent Microsoft "partnership" they got paid for.
Nobody here trusts these people anymore(except diehard Slowlaris fans). If it wasn't for Open Office, there would really be nothing to say about these folks. I like their OS and I wish them well. But here is the reality of the situation. In short- fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. The first date is long since over, and flowers ain't cut it.
You ain't gonna get the source code.
<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/cp
You are going to get the source code, if you want it. The license decision is the main thing holding it up at this point.
I should have qualified the term "get". In get I mean you have it as your own, and modify it as your own, and send out the changes as your own. Like if you were to "get" a car, and own/modify/change it to your liking.
That's what I meant by "You ain't gonna get the source code." I hope that clarifies the premise. Good catch of subtlety there on your part.
That's what I meant by "You ain't gonna get the source code." I hope that clarifies the premise. Good catch of subtlety there on your part.
... a legend in their own minds.
Listen to their latest announcements and you'd think that Sun invented computing. They were the first to do everything! According to them, that is.
Sun did do something inventive stuff at one time but it seems that their biggest contribution to computing lately is hyperbole.
I don't really understand WHY Sun is doing this. If there OS is free, where is their revenue ? Their hardware ? They must be desperate. They must have realized that they couldn't compete with Linux. If you can't beat "them" you have to join them.
But I still don't understand this. They didn't get anything from open sourcing OO, but they probably wouldn't have gotten anything from OO if they didn't open source it. Is Sun going to keep working on Solaris ? Why would they ? Are they going to do a RedHat, ie sell their version (and support) to corporate clients and use the general development community as testers ? That is my guess.
I can't see Sun getting rich on its hardware. PCs are increasing in power every year and continually undercutting the server market. The workstation market is already gone and the server market is the next to go. I think that Sun's niche is going to be enterprize software, which, I suspect, will include a large import of other OS (GPL) technology, along with enterprize class hardware.
I think that going OS was good for Sun for a number of reasons:
a) they increased their developer force
b) they increased the available support for Solaris.
c) they can now import a whole bunch of GPL code.
d) it won't look like they are dropping it if it dies.
I think all this is really good for Linux. I can't see Solaris living on its own. I don't think Sun thought they could continue competing with Linux. I'll bet that Sun will happily support (their ?) Linux running on their enterprize hardware.
So... Apple is open source, Sun is open source, Linux is open source, BSD is open source... who is next ???
But I still don't understand this. They didn't get anything from open sourcing OO, but they probably wouldn't have gotten anything from OO if they didn't open source it. Is Sun going to keep working on Solaris ? Why would they ? Are they going to do a RedHat, ie sell their version (and support) to corporate clients and use the general development community as testers ? That is my guess.
I can't see Sun getting rich on its hardware. PCs are increasing in power every year and continually undercutting the server market. The workstation market is already gone and the server market is the next to go. I think that Sun's niche is going to be enterprize software, which, I suspect, will include a large import of other OS (GPL) technology, along with enterprize class hardware.
I think that going OS was good for Sun for a number of reasons:
a) they increased their developer force
b) they increased the available support for Solaris.
c) they can now import a whole bunch of GPL code.
d) it won't look like they are dropping it if it dies.
I think all this is really good for Linux. I can't see Solaris living on its own. I don't think Sun thought they could continue competing with Linux. I'll bet that Sun will happily support (their ?) Linux running on their enterprize hardware.
So... Apple is open source, Sun is open source, Linux is open source, BSD is open source... who is next ???
That can only help if either the GPL or LGPL are the choice for their license. I seriously doubt this will be the case. They will not choose any of the old reliable standbys: BSD, X, MIT, GPL, LGPL. It will be some bizarro-incompatible-with-damn-near-everything license like the SCSL or SISSL. I see it as a net loss actually. BSD and Linux developers might have to fall all over themselves in a future court case to prove they weren't exposed to Sun's "open" code.
IMHO, this is rather simple: Intel/AMD processors are getting better every year, and Sun can't beat the economics of scale here. On the other hand, Linux gets also better every year, with lots of development support from different vendors. Solaris would have been having a hard time to compete in a few years.
Where does this leave Sun?
The only viable option is the service market ala RedHat. But Sun has no advantage here. Lots of people can do support for Linux.
But Sun got an advantage doing support for Solaris because they know their system best. Thus, they 'open source' the OS, and will try to make money from support contracts - and noone will be better in supporting Solaris than Sun. Looks like a competitive advantage.
Where does this leave Sun?
The only viable option is the service market ala RedHat. But Sun has no advantage here. Lots of people can do support for Linux.
But Sun got an advantage doing support for Solaris because they know their system best. Thus, they 'open source' the OS, and will try to make money from support contracts - and noone will be better in supporting Solaris than Sun. Looks like a competitive advantage.
Predictably, all the irrational zealots come out to play.
The reality is that Solaris - already - is cheaper, faster, more scaleable, easier to manage, and generally better than Linux. And, interestingly, it's now stretching its lead rather than Linux catching up.
And OpenSolaris is real. It's coming. Personally, I'm not sure why Sun need to open source it to compete, when it's already streets ahead, but it's just in need of legal approval (and that's a massive undertaking).
Sun can't do everything right, but at least they've finally come to realize that their own Solaris is the finest OS on the planet, and the crown jewel in their product line.
The reality is that Solaris - already - is cheaper, faster, more scaleable, easier to manage, and generally better than Linux. And, interestingly, it's now stretching its lead rather than Linux catching up.
And OpenSolaris is real. It's coming. Personally, I'm not sure why Sun need to open source it to compete, when it's already streets ahead, but it's just in need of legal approval (and that's a massive undertaking).
Sun can't do everything right, but at least they've finally come to realize that their own Solaris is the finest OS on the planet, and the crown jewel in their product line.
Predictably, all the irrational zealots come out to play.
How typical. You don't have anything worthwile to say, so you drag out the Z word.
Call me a zealot, call me an enthusiast. I don't care, but I do disagree with any of your assertions. Anyone who claims Solaris to be easier to manage than Linux right off you know their talking out of their ass. There's a whole multitude of ways to "manage" your Linux box. If you're claiming that Solaris trumps Yast then you're only kidding yourself.
As for "generally better", well I think you only need to look at their desktop to see that Solaris needs Gnome because CDE is a glorious piece of crap.
How typical. You don't have anything worthwile to say, so you drag out the Z word.
Call me a zealot, call me an enthusiast. I don't care, but I do disagree with any of your assertions. Anyone who claims Solaris to be easier to manage than Linux right off you know their talking out of their ass. There's a whole multitude of ways to "manage" your Linux box. If you're claiming that Solaris trumps Yast then you're only kidding yourself.
As for "generally better", well I think you only need to look at their desktop to see that Solaris needs Gnome because CDE is a glorious piece of crap.
While I might agree that Solaris lacks fancy management interfaces, the truth is that it doesn't need them. It just works, and keeps on working, and when you do need to manage it it's dead simple.
I don't want a multitude of ways to manage a Linux box (and god knows they need managing). Let's see - nope, no yast on that Red Hat box. I just want systems that work.
And while CDE is pretty dismal as far as UI design goes, gnome makes it look good. At least it's functional and consistent, properties that KDE has in abundance and gnome, composed of a ragtag assortment of individual applications, will never get close to.
I don't want a multitude of ways to manage a Linux box (and god knows they need managing). Let's see - nope, no yast on that Red Hat box. I just want systems that work.
And while CDE is pretty dismal as far as UI design goes, gnome makes it look good. At least it's functional and consistent, properties that KDE has in abundance and gnome, composed of a ragtag assortment of individual applications, will never get close to.
I can't figure out if this is serious, or subtle parody.
Cheaper than free? Don't be silly...
Faster? Where are the benchmarks?
Scalable? Haven't seen any Solaris super cluster, plenty of Linux clusters though...
Easier to manage and generally better? Are you a PR person?
Solaris will not be Open Source. Do I say that Solaris is a Bad OS? No, but Sun is Bad. It even pays astroturfers! Either that or you are an oracle-wannabe:
"Predictably, all the irrational zealots come out to play."
Faster? Where are the benchmarks?
Scalable? Haven't seen any Solaris super cluster, plenty of Linux clusters though...
Easier to manage and generally better? Are you a PR person?
Solaris will not be Open Source. Do I say that Solaris is a Bad OS? No, but Sun is Bad. It even pays astroturfers! Either that or you are an oracle-wannabe:
"Predictably, all the irrational zealots come out to play."
Haven't seen any Solaris super cluster, plenty of Linux clusters though
http://wwws.sun.com/software/cluster/
A different class from the stuff in RHEL (the only Linux cluster stuff I've really looked at, apart from Beowulf, which is more about distributed processing than clustering).
http://wwws.sun.com/software/cluster/
A different class from the stuff in RHEL (the only Linux cluster stuff I've really looked at, apart from Beowulf, which is more about distributed processing than clustering).
I guess Sun employees are not that busy these days to be able to respond to these silly articles. Next time don't forget your pom poms and a silly cheer!
our new Sun Undersecretaries<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... oops, that was supposed to be Overlords - you know I meant Overlords!
Sun will come out with Solaris 10, with some license that looks basically open. People will delve into it, hack, patch, and prune it. Sun will get the benefit of all that work. THEN I worry that Sun will start looking at Linux, claiming that anyone who has seen their code has transferred their "intellectual property" into Linux (and oddly the "open" license they choose will be incompatible with the GPL) even if they can't show any code theft I'm sure many of the concepts in Solaris are HEAVILY patented. I'm not even saying this is Sun's plan, I just worry that it will work out that way.
Good points. That's why we asked McNealy and Schwartz about "trusting the company" in this story. They also said that Sun had been working on opening Solaris since 1999, and that it's taken five years to legally "round up" all the outside IP contained within it, so it can be released to open source. The company insists that it has completed all the tedious legal work and that all the code will indeed be opened as advertised. However, it should be noted also that McNealy did say he doesn't expect the Kodak Java challenge to be the last one. Such is the legal world today.
<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/cp
The proof of the pudding is in the eating
Posted by: DFJA on November 16, 2004 09:21 PM#