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Retail geeks aren't geeky enough
By Jay Lyman
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January 20, 2005 (8:00:00 AM)
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You can find ample and able Linux and open source software support from a range of places, but if my recent check on Linux support by Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, and even Dell is any indication, don't expect to find any support from mainstream retailers.
Maybe you've seen ads for Best Buy's Geek Squad, technicians who make IT house calls driving logo-emblazoned Volkswagen New Beetles. Neat concept, but how geeky are these geeks? I figured I'd call with a Linux support question and inform them that I had installed the open source operating system on the Windows machine I bought from them.
A call to the nearest Best Buy gave me an automated reference to the company's "24-hour computer support task force," promising Geek Squad services over the phone or in my home. The task force's automated answer was amusing, advising in electronic voice that if I wanted to hear a malfunctioning computer thrown by catapult into a pool of piranha or to hear the "soothing drone" of a 1942 supercomputer, I could press number 4. It did sound like it was authentic, but I quickly proceeded to talking to a human to see if there was any Linux support to be found there.
I was routed to a live operator who asked what my problem was. After being initially impressed that the Geek Squad billed for software service on a per-issue basis of $160, I was quickly reminded why I thought this might make a good article.
"I forget what Linux is, is it a router?" the representative asked.
I responded that it was an operating system and I had installed it on one of the computers I bought from Best Buy. After asking again whether anyone might be able to help with Linux support, the young man politely informed me that it was a long shot.
"Most [of our geeks] work with Windows," he said. "A limited number work with Mac. I'm not even sure they work on Linux."
After putting me on hold to see if I could be helped "in-store" with my mysterious Linux problem, the Geek Squad guy said they didn't do Linux support, but that I could call the local store.
"If they have an agent who knows Linux, they might be able to help you," he said. Then he asked, "Have you called Linux themselves?" I fumbled around for a negative response before contemplating an explanation, but decided against it and hung up.
Calls to three local stores in Oregon proved somewhat disappointing, as the dreaded Linux (incorrectly pronounced L-eye-nux) bewilderment continued. The first store, in Portland, routed my call to computer support, which rang indefinitely with no answer. The second call was to the Best Buy in Beaverton, home to the Open Source Development Labs (OSDL). However, during regular store hours on a regular business day, there was no answer, no answering service, no re-route -- nothing but ringing. I tried a third store and told a gentleman that I was having a problem with my Best Buy computer running Linux. He told me to hold on while he checked with his technicians, then routed my call to, unfortunately, more endless ringing. Just as I was about to give up, a customer service representative picked up, listened to my dilemma and routed me to a technician. That young man said he had never used Linux himself, but gave me the name of a local Geek Squad agent who might be able to help. The funny thing was the man was referenced as "Agent" such and such, as if I would be contacting a local FBI officer.
I called back to the Geek Squad with the name, and when I repeated my issues -- problems connecting to the Internet with my Linux machine -- the phone representative indicated he was calling my agent to see if he could help. It turned out that the agent dabbled in Linux, but hadn't worked with it in a long time (whatever that meant). However, he did know of another local agent who worked with Linux every day. While the phone rep tried to reach him, I waited on hold again with the Geek Squad's big band music. The experience ended with some hope for Linux support; Best Buy assured me that this geek agent knew Linux and could help me if I left a message.
Short Circuit City
Instead I pushed on to another big electronics retailer. The call to Circuit City's computer services began hopefully as I was quickly routed to "one of the computer guys," but when I mentioned Linux, I could almost feel the lack of understanding flowing through the phone receiver.
"We offer service on computers to install software, but for Linux ..." said the representative with pause. "It's totally different software. I don't know if we can work on that."
Still, after asking whether there was anyone there with the Circuit City crew who could help with Linux, I was told to try back at noon. Apparently, the normal Windows geeks go to lunch then and let the Linux guy have his crazy hours. I tried back at noon, but the guy who supposedly wasn't dumbfounded by Linux could not be found again. In fact, the next guy who answered my computer service call told me, "None of us here really know Linux. We don't carry any of that software," he added.
Comp US no way
The same drill with CompUSA was quick and efficient. I rapidly learned that there was absolutely no Linux help from these guys. A call to the local store's service department revealed the company's 24/7 "dial-a-tech" support over the phone, chat, email, or the Web. But I soon found out that service was limited to Windows and Mac, as the representative I reached said there was no support, "not for Linux." At least he knew what Linux was, but when I asked whether there might be anyone there who could help me, he simply said, "unfortunately not." I asked if he might have any ideas on where I could find help and he gave perhaps the most constructive advice of the experiment: "Maybe find a Linux support group online or something."
Dell: Direct and denied
After reaching the biggest computer service outfits around, I figured I owed a call to Dell, since so much computer hardware comes from the direct-dealing company. An acquaintance told me Linux support, for which Dell used to have some credibility, was one of the reasons he chose that hardware. However, his experience proved to be similar to mine in this experiment, he said. Nevertheless, I wanted to see what would happen if I called regarding problems with the Linux software I put on my Windows XP machine from Dell.
As I was figuring out what problem to present and how to ask about Linux support, I was informed by a recording that Dell technicians would not assist with any software that was not factory-installed on the computer. For assistance on that, the voice told me, I should contact the manufacturer of the product. But wait, wouldn't that be Dell? It was another circular stiff arm for Linux support.
Good thing I know plenty of people willing to help with Linux and other open source software support, some for little or no cost, but just the satisfaction of spreading software freedom. However, for the masses of regular folks out there who do not follow the software industry fanatically -- some of whom may be purchasing Linux in machines at Wal-Mart or online -- geek support still has a long way to go.
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Who cares about the geeksquard they suck. check out www.thegeeksquadsucks.com
There is some hope and light. IBM and Novell embracing Linux shows there is business support. Sun and Microsoft decrying Linux is free advertising and it's working. The SCO lawsuit was a boon to Linux in that it thrust the Linux issue out in the news arena (the best kind of advertising) and just so happens SCO is screwing up the case so badly that they are validating Linux in the process.
On the consumer front, no, Linux isn't really visible at all. But you're also talking from a society ingrained with MS products. Go to China or Brazil and Linux is a bigger name there.
On the business front, people are actually waking up to the cost benefits of Linux to replace expensive MS contracts. A basic Linux workstation outfitted with openoffice is good enough for most business use, and a capable team of Linux engineers can go to the web and build a custom distro for the company they're working free of license fees. So the cost is the salaries plus hardware without the added expense of licensing fees. If anything else, at least money talks and that is saying a lot to a company looking to cut costs.
It's only a matter of time before companies see that benefit and switch. Then they will switch and their apps will switch as well. There will be a segement of employees that will take their companies distro and apps home with them so they can continue working, adding to the Linux penetration. Once that home use starts, you will really see Linux take off in the consumer space.
On the consumer front, no, Linux isn't really visible at all. But you're also talking from a society ingrained with MS products. Go to China or Brazil and Linux is a bigger name there.
On the business front, people are actually waking up to the cost benefits of Linux to replace expensive MS contracts. A basic Linux workstation outfitted with openoffice is good enough for most business use, and a capable team of Linux engineers can go to the web and build a custom distro for the company they're working free of license fees. So the cost is the salaries plus hardware without the added expense of licensing fees. If anything else, at least money talks and that is saying a lot to a company looking to cut costs.
It's only a matter of time before companies see that benefit and switch. Then they will switch and their apps will switch as well. There will be a segement of employees that will take their companies distro and apps home with them so they can continue working, adding to the Linux penetration. Once that home use starts, you will really see Linux take off in the consumer space.
..hmm... i see!
but what about the monumental task of supporting > 300 [and rising !] distros at the same time each having its own share of problems, configs!
but what about the monumental task of supporting > 300 [and rising !] distros at the same time each having its own share of problems, configs!
Re:linux - It is a slow growth. Wait for it.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 02:09 AM
..hmm... i see! but what about the monumental task of supporting > 300 [and rising !] distros at the same time each having its own share of problems, configs!
Umm maybe instead of supporting 300, maybe they will support the top 5 or 10. Off the top of my head (Forgive me if I miss anyone's favorite ) RedHat/Fedora, Suse, Mandrake, Turbolinux, Debian, Slackware, Linspire, Xandros and Lycoris. Again off the top of my head, those 9 distros are probably cover over 90% off all installed Linux machines. I as a sysadmin support in my real job RedHat EL and Suse EL machines along with sun, ibm, & hp machines.
" Linux is just not spreading like fire. Linux users are forever flooded with Linux news, distros and advocacies and so they think that everyone is hearing about Linux news, distros, advocacies. But in reality, no one pays a damn to it!"
My response to this is who is "everyone"? Right now Linux & FLOSS is mostly the knowledge domain of CIOs, IT directors, and IT guys & gals doing the real grunt work. This is very similar if not identical to the adoption rates of PCs & IT systems in the 1980s & early 1990s. Back then businesses used those expensive PCs and IT systems, not families or consumers. Only hobby hackers & tinkerers messed with PCs.
Now we have non-IT professionals getting work done or having a good time by using all sorts of technology without the necessity of being an IT guru. Witness kids building websites, grandmothers emailing their grandson stationed overseas, fathers building spreadsheets to get a better idea of the mortagage, a new mother researches why her infant is always ill, etc. All of this was almost impossible just 8 years ago because the barrier of entry was way too high & required a mastery of IT concepts & practices. Now it is commonplace & accepted as the norm.
Linux adoption will probably flow the same way. It began with fringe thinkers & tinkerers. It slowly made its way into businesses and was largely ignored. With time it has gained attention and it has not remained stagnant but has gotten better. Every release of some distro is more feature filled, easier to use, more stable, etc. Thus lowering the barrier of entry not just for buinesses or IT gurus but for everyone.
Widescale & across the board Linux adoption is small. But it is coming. The company I work for is OS/platform agnostic. We make software for windows/unix/linux/mainframe. If we make a version of a commercial software product for Windows, we also make a version for Linux. Again, huge/big/awesome Linux adoption is small but it is growing.
Now if "everyone" is to include everyone<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) then just wait a while. There are houses of worship, non-profits, companies, after school clubs, student organizations, and homes that are learning about FLOSS & Linux. Adoption & usage in those places is going to be small just like PCs were about 15-20 years ago. In my opinion it looks like Linux will share the very same growth cycle that helped MS, IBM & Dell to grow.
I could be very wrong. Time will tell. We will just have to wait for it.
Umm maybe instead of supporting 300, maybe they will support the top 5 or 10. Off the top of my head (Forgive me if I miss anyone's favorite ) RedHat/Fedora, Suse, Mandrake, Turbolinux, Debian, Slackware, Linspire, Xandros and Lycoris. Again off the top of my head, those 9 distros are probably cover over 90% off all installed Linux machines. I as a sysadmin support in my real job RedHat EL and Suse EL machines along with sun, ibm, & hp machines.
" Linux is just not spreading like fire. Linux users are forever flooded with Linux news, distros and advocacies and so they think that everyone is hearing about Linux news, distros, advocacies. But in reality, no one pays a damn to it!"
My response to this is who is "everyone"? Right now Linux & FLOSS is mostly the knowledge domain of CIOs, IT directors, and IT guys & gals doing the real grunt work. This is very similar if not identical to the adoption rates of PCs & IT systems in the 1980s & early 1990s. Back then businesses used those expensive PCs and IT systems, not families or consumers. Only hobby hackers & tinkerers messed with PCs.
Now we have non-IT professionals getting work done or having a good time by using all sorts of technology without the necessity of being an IT guru. Witness kids building websites, grandmothers emailing their grandson stationed overseas, fathers building spreadsheets to get a better idea of the mortagage, a new mother researches why her infant is always ill, etc. All of this was almost impossible just 8 years ago because the barrier of entry was way too high & required a mastery of IT concepts & practices. Now it is commonplace & accepted as the norm.
Linux adoption will probably flow the same way. It began with fringe thinkers & tinkerers. It slowly made its way into businesses and was largely ignored. With time it has gained attention and it has not remained stagnant but has gotten better. Every release of some distro is more feature filled, easier to use, more stable, etc. Thus lowering the barrier of entry not just for buinesses or IT gurus but for everyone.
Widescale & across the board Linux adoption is small. But it is coming. The company I work for is OS/platform agnostic. We make software for windows/unix/linux/mainframe. If we make a version of a commercial software product for Windows, we also make a version for Linux. Again, huge/big/awesome Linux adoption is small but it is growing.
Now if "everyone" is to include everyone<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) then just wait a while. There are houses of worship, non-profits, companies, after school clubs, student organizations, and homes that are learning about FLOSS & Linux. Adoption & usage in those places is going to be small just like PCs were about 15-20 years ago. In my opinion it looks like Linux will share the very same growth cycle that helped MS, IBM & Dell to grow.
I could be very wrong. Time will tell. We will just have to wait for it.
Re:linux - It is a slow growth. Wait for it.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 04:11 AM
It will not start to really take off until it simply comes pre-installed on PCs. If you look at "Joe home PC user", he/she usually doesn't know what an OS does, why to get one or any other such "nonsense." They just hear or read that they "need Windows XP" or more often that they "need Office XP" to be compatibile with work. So they go out and buy a computer with "XP" in the long list of things on that computer that they don't understand or recognize (odd things like RAM, CPU, etc.)
Don't forget the bazaar... Noone is going to support 300+ distros. They will support the top two to four or five distros and most others will die of obscurity.
But I'm sorry thats what you got out of my post.
But I'm sorry thats what you got out of my post.
Large chunk is the live cd market. Mainly build from Debian. Ie Debian matains the code KANOTIX Gnoppix and so on are all Debian.
Also there are many distros that are just moded Debains or other distros from the core. So only about 6 distros have to completely support them selfs.
Ie Fedora/redhat Mandrake Suse Debian Gentoo and the oldest Slackware.
linux/unix had a desktop war and we had over 100 desktop enviorments. The most powerful lived. Some of the loses of the war are still kicking around ie enlightment. Note we only have 2 majors now with another 8 fighting to stay in the game ie will die out even more yet.
Basicly we are in a installer war and live cd war. Everyone geting to a fight to create the best installer or live cd. I expect live cd war not to stop any time soon ie each live cd has a place. But the installer war sould die off as distros projects merge/die There is only so much you can do with installers and tweeking.
Note even slackware the god dam rattle snake distro(yep it will sneek up and bite you if it gets a chance from missing installing something) has a simple installer called vector linux. Hmm it is listed at least twice once user unfriendly once user friendly.
I would say most likely another 12 months until the end of the installer war. Then we start sinking back to the core distros once again.
Most likely over 200 are live cds or distros directly made from another distro. So the task is not getting harder but simpler more developers finding and fixing faults.
Almost no one is starting out from scratch. And if the did they would most like to be slayed in under 6 months due to not being able to support self and/or provide enough software. Linux distros are huge on the number of programs they have to support.
Also there are many distros that are just moded Debains or other distros from the core. So only about 6 distros have to completely support them selfs.
Ie Fedora/redhat Mandrake Suse Debian Gentoo and the oldest Slackware.
linux/unix had a desktop war and we had over 100 desktop enviorments. The most powerful lived. Some of the loses of the war are still kicking around ie enlightment. Note we only have 2 majors now with another 8 fighting to stay in the game ie will die out even more yet.
Basicly we are in a installer war and live cd war. Everyone geting to a fight to create the best installer or live cd. I expect live cd war not to stop any time soon ie each live cd has a place. But the installer war sould die off as distros projects merge/die There is only so much you can do with installers and tweeking.
Note even slackware the god dam rattle snake distro(yep it will sneek up and bite you if it gets a chance from missing installing something) has a simple installer called vector linux. Hmm it is listed at least twice once user unfriendly once user friendly.
I would say most likely another 12 months until the end of the installer war. Then we start sinking back to the core distros once again.
Most likely over 200 are live cds or distros directly made from another distro. So the task is not getting harder but simpler more developers finding and fixing faults.
Almost no one is starting out from scratch. And if the did they would most like to be slayed in under 6 months due to not being able to support self and/or provide enough software. Linux distros are huge on the number of programs they have to support.
Why support >300 distro's.
of those >300 distro's what number of them have more than say 3 dozen users. maybe 50. Of those 50 what number of those are based off of Debian or Red hat. Now of most of those distro's are hard to install and configure(gentoo?) Requiring knowledge to use. If you have the knowledge to use them, then you have the knowledge to fix them, or at least figure out how.
The people who need help will be running Lycoris, or Xandros, or Fedora, or Mandrake, or Novell.
That's a lot easier to support. Now isn't it. considering since Xandros, and Lycoris are Debian.
of those >300 distro's what number of them have more than say 3 dozen users. maybe 50. Of those 50 what number of those are based off of Debian or Red hat. Now of most of those distro's are hard to install and configure(gentoo?) Requiring knowledge to use. If you have the knowledge to use them, then you have the knowledge to fix them, or at least figure out how.
The people who need help will be running Lycoris, or Xandros, or Fedora, or Mandrake, or Novell.
That's a lot easier to support. Now isn't it. considering since Xandros, and Lycoris are Debian.
Whenever I'm in a lobby, or wherever, wasting time, I always reach for the business magazines. Invariably, there is an article about open source software (generally GNU/Linux as a server operating system, sometimes Mozilla). Yet every time, they present the concept of OSS as if the reader has never heard of it before... despite all the previous articles. I draw the conclusion that, despite ample coverage in major publications such as Forbes, Business Week, etc.; the idea really isn't getting through to people. I suppose it's like when you read about some emerging technology which sounds awfully exciting, but doesn't affect your life just yet. You quickly forget about it, until you actually see it being used around you.
I don't know if you've noticed, but advertising is based on the "carpet bombing" principle. Not a little. A little there. A little here. Over time.
Point taken. However, I'm not sure that KDE or Gnome users are willing to give up their beloved desktops just so that Linux can become monolithic like Windows or MacIntosh.
That said...I was surprised when I flew into Denver three weeks ago. There were GIANT Linux adds up all over the place in the form of highway signs. Linux was the first exit, then Windows, then MacIntosh. I can't remember which company put the signs up, but I recall seeing at least three of them taking up about 20 ft horizontally and 4-5 feet vertically directly over the moving walkways.
I think you'd be surprised at how the word is spreading. Will Linux become a Windows replacement overnight? Of course not. But among most college students I teach, perhaps 2/3 have heard of it. Among sales people, perhaps 1/5.
That said...I was surprised when I flew into Denver three weeks ago. There were GIANT Linux adds up all over the place in the form of highway signs. Linux was the first exit, then Windows, then MacIntosh. I can't remember which company put the signs up, but I recall seeing at least three of them taking up about 20 ft horizontally and 4-5 feet vertically directly over the moving walkways.
I think you'd be surprised at how the word is spreading. Will Linux become a Windows replacement overnight? Of course not. But among most college students I teach, perhaps 2/3 have heard of it. Among sales people, perhaps 1/5.
Its really very sad that you want to physically assault someone over their choice of Operating System. Perhaps you ought to get out more.
When I go to stores that sell peripherals, I find myself peeking at the backs of packages to see how many items claim to be Linux compatible. I rarely find any.
As far as software related assistence is concerned, most Linux users are probably sophisticated enough to be able to deal with their own problmes, but this generalization becomes less valid every day. Linux is now easier to use than windows is, and a lot of people with limited technical skills are migrating. Its about time that major vendors recongized this.
One of the major problems for vendors is the lack of standardization. My dsl modem's manual had a section about configuring for use with Linux - it said something along the lines of: "different distributions and desktop environments use different utilities for network configuration, so this manual relies upon the technical expertise common amongst Linux users... blah blah blah"
Linux is a challenging thing to support!
As far as software related assistence is concerned, most Linux users are probably sophisticated enough to be able to deal with their own problmes, but this generalization becomes less valid every day. Linux is now easier to use than windows is, and a lot of people with limited technical skills are migrating. Its about time that major vendors recongized this.
One of the major problems for vendors is the lack of standardization. My dsl modem's manual had a section about configuring for use with Linux - it said something along the lines of: "different distributions and desktop environments use different utilities for network configuration, so this manual relies upon the technical expertise common amongst Linux users... blah blah blah"
Linux is a challenging thing to support!
I was looking at routers and networking cards at the big online stores, and was surprised to see that all the major brands claimed to "support" Linux in their specs. What that means remains to be seen, and I'd be shocked to find any Linux-compatible software on their CDs, but just seeing them recognize the existence of something besides MS was refreshing.
Maybe when I buy one of them I'll try pushing their support claims to the max and see what happens.
Maybe when I buy one of them I'll try pushing their support claims to the max and see what happens.
Having bought a router recently, I think their *nix support is limited to putting a PDF manual on the CD instead of a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc one.
That is useful, and it's OK. Just so long as the router's built-in web server doesn't use "IE-optimized" Javascript or (ugh!) Active-X, what else is needed?
My Samsung printer has "Linux" right next to "Windows" and "Mac".
That explains why linux is growing in corporate environments, but not in the consumer marketplace. Corporations build their own support infrastructures anyway, and linux isn't that hard to support anymore. If you think back about 5 years ago, linux was just then beginning to be recognized as a valid operating system for a few functions in the data center. That's where linux is on the desktop now. Many people who are aware of it, but don't use it consider it to be a special purpose desktop envirnment -- say good for a help desk department, but not for me, I use word and that doesn't run on linux.
Give it time, With the desktop linux developments, and the increase in demand from corporate users -- who will get what they want, and will pay for it, I expect to see a gradual improvement in the situation over the next 4 or 5 years, just like there has been a gradual transition in the data center.
The fact is that 2 out of the 5 major outlets contacted oficially recognized the existance of linux at the customer contact level. These 2 have at least made a concious choice that they choose not to support linux. Even though we may not like the decision at least it was a purposeful decision, which means that linux is becoming more visible in the marketplace.
Give it time, With the desktop linux developments, and the increase in demand from corporate users -- who will get what they want, and will pay for it, I expect to see a gradual improvement in the situation over the next 4 or 5 years, just like there has been a gradual transition in the data center.
The fact is that 2 out of the 5 major outlets contacted oficially recognized the existance of linux at the customer contact level. These 2 have at least made a concious choice that they choose not to support linux. Even though we may not like the decision at least it was a purposeful decision, which means that linux is becoming more visible in the marketplace.
I've recently begun to think of Linux as something analagous to a high-end HP calculator. Scientists, professors, business people may have had HP calculators, and there are certainly many fans of HP calculators, collectors of HP calculators.
But for many people, a solar calculator handed out for free from some conference or any old $10 calculator is enough. Calculators to many people are like disposable pens, or pencils - just so long as you can find one, just so long as they haven't all disappeared. Oh where did I put that thing?
For people who don't care about computers, as such - anything that is convenient and easy to use will do. I can see how so many people might think that a HP RPN calculator would be "broken", or perhaps misunderstood. When I was a young child, my dad taught me how to use his HP RPN calculator with the red LED numbers -- and consequently, I always thought that "real" calculators used RPN.
I think Linux is sort of like that. It's a serious tool, for people who need a real computer.
But for many people, a solar calculator handed out for free from some conference or any old $10 calculator is enough. Calculators to many people are like disposable pens, or pencils - just so long as you can find one, just so long as they haven't all disappeared. Oh where did I put that thing?
For people who don't care about computers, as such - anything that is convenient and easy to use will do. I can see how so many people might think that a HP RPN calculator would be "broken", or perhaps misunderstood. When I was a young child, my dad taught me how to use his HP RPN calculator with the red LED numbers -- and consequently, I always thought that "real" calculators used RPN.
I think Linux is sort of like that. It's a serious tool, for people who need a real computer.
...you're mostly SOL, unless you have a knowledgable corporate IT guy local who does it "on the side" as it were.
I do 3 or 4 Linux installs a month, and the folks that I've done it for couldn't be happier. Their old P-II 233 or 350 runs great with modern (and updatable) software, and they didn't have to spend hundreds of dollars on new equipment. Now if only there were a decent AOL client (not just a dialer) for Linux, I'd easily quadruple the install base.
I do 3 or 4 Linux installs a month, and the folks that I've done it for couldn't be happier. Their old P-II 233 or 350 runs great with modern (and updatable) software, and they didn't have to spend hundreds of dollars on new equipment. Now if only there were a decent AOL client (not just a dialer) for Linux, I'd easily quadruple the install base.
and what are you planning to do if the 'folks' go out in the market to buy a Canon xnu i255 printer and then ask you 'Why the hell ain't it working?'
[Note: I am in a similar fix<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:( ]
[Note: I am in a similar fix<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:( ]
Those folks who are already my clients, normally would have consulted with me before making such a purchase. Those who run Linux and aren't already my clients would most likely have done a little research and not bought hardware on impulse. A 2 minute visit to the <A HREF="http://cups.org/" title="cups.org">CUPS website</a cups.org> or <A HREF="http://linuxprinting.org/" title="linuxprinting.org">Linuxprinting.org</a linuxprinting.org> to view the supported printers databases can save much time and hassle.
I realized long ago that the big companies the author wasted his time contacting for Linux support would be the last ones to jump on the Linux bandwagon. Having seen some of their "support" people in action I doubt they are even versed in Windows let alone Linux.
Lady buying blank cds: "Whats the difference between the blank cds that say "music" disks and the ones that say "data" disks?
Genius support tech from some big box store: "Well, the ones that say music are specially designed for creating music disks and the ones that say data are only good for copying your data files to."
Lady buying blank cds: Ohhhhhhh, thank you, I will spend more for the music disks since I am going to make copys of my music cds."
I have a small computer sales and support business. I support mostly Windows users and and a growing number of Linux users. I also have my own Linux based mail server. Putting 2 and 2 together it seemed pretty obvious to me that my customers were the ones I could directly reach by using the resources I had at hand. I now ask every customer if they would like to be on my monthly newsletter list. In each months newsletter I include a mix of sales specials and Linux and Windows computer news and tips that I know they would never see in the mainstream news media they are normally exposed to.
You can't wait for the big boys to do it. They never will on their own and will be the last in line to support Linux. You have to do it yourselves.
BTW, it works.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Lady buying blank cds: "Whats the difference between the blank cds that say "music" disks and the ones that say "data" disks?
Genius support tech from some big box store: "Well, the ones that say music are specially designed for creating music disks and the ones that say data are only good for copying your data files to."
Lady buying blank cds: Ohhhhhhh, thank you, I will spend more for the music disks since I am going to make copys of my music cds."
I have a small computer sales and support business. I support mostly Windows users and and a growing number of Linux users. I also have my own Linux based mail server. Putting 2 and 2 together it seemed pretty obvious to me that my customers were the ones I could directly reach by using the resources I had at hand. I now ask every customer if they would like to be on my monthly newsletter list. In each months newsletter I include a mix of sales specials and Linux and Windows computer news and tips that I know they would never see in the mainstream news media they are normally exposed to.
You can't wait for the big boys to do it. They never will on their own and will be the last in line to support Linux. You have to do it yourselves.
BTW, it works.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Hey now, I have a PhD in computer science, and I didn't know until I looked it up that there was no difference between data and music CD-Rs aside from the graphics printed on the disk!
I agree with your main point though -- that it would be pretty unlikely for the original author to have succeeded!
I agree with your main point though -- that it would be pretty unlikely for the original author to have succeeded!
Okay, okay.... you have a PHD.... just don't touch anything.
"Hey now, I have a PhD in computer science, and I didn't know until I looked it up that there was no difference between data and music CD-Rs aside from the graphics printed on the disk!"
That's not technically true.
<A HREF="http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-17" title="cdrfaq.org">http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-17</a cdrfaq.org>
<A HREF="http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq05.html#S5-12" title="cdrfaq.org">http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq05.html#S5-12</a cdrfaq.org>
That's not technically true.
<A HREF="http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-17" title="cdrfaq.org">http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-17</a cdrfaq.org>
<A HREF="http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq05.html#S5-12" title="cdrfaq.org">http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq05.html#S5-12</a cdrfaq.org>
Hmmph. Just goes to show why bragging about having a PhD isn't going to impress anyone...
This does not suprise me at all, windows is so ingrained in some of these shops. and Linux support
tends to come from Other non traditional areas.
and Linux knowledge also tends to have a higher price on it for support personell so the "geeksqaud"
may not be will to pay more then there 10 or 12 $$ an hour for there support persons to a linux guy who will want at least 17 -20 $$
or even a higher end windows guys the same would apply.
"linux" is being rolled out in larger numbers, the biggest impact now is in the backend servers, pretty soon
alot of companys will have mostly Linux servers in the data centers, the windows servers will be , domain controls, and maybe an sql 2000, machine.
all other services print,file web are all moving to linux.
-Nex6
tends to come from Other non traditional areas.
and Linux knowledge also tends to have a higher price on it for support personell so the "geeksqaud"
may not be will to pay more then there 10 or 12 $$ an hour for there support persons to a linux guy who will want at least 17 -20 $$
or even a higher end windows guys the same would apply.
"linux" is being rolled out in larger numbers, the biggest impact now is in the backend servers, pretty soon
alot of companys will have mostly Linux servers in the data centers, the windows servers will be , domain controls, and maybe an sql 2000, machine.
all other services print,file web are all moving to linux.
-Nex6
they offer 7 base pay, and most of them know absolutely nothing beyond format/wipe/reinstall add/remove programs, and insert cd and use wizard.
"I figured I'd call with a Linux support question and inform them that I had installed the open source operating system on the Windows machine I bought from them."
He bought a WINDOWS based machine and installed Linux on it and expected the store or the manufacturer to support it? If it came pre-installed with Windows, I'm sure the manufacturer never intended on it being Linux compatible. Sure, since it's x86 based it should work. But seriously, how can one expect support after installing a completely new OS?
Maybe I missed the point of the artical, but no where did he mention the pc was advertised as Linux compatible/ready.
He bought a WINDOWS based machine and installed Linux on it and expected the store or the manufacturer to support it? If it came pre-installed with Windows, I'm sure the manufacturer never intended on it being Linux compatible. Sure, since it's x86 based it should work. But seriously, how can one expect support after installing a completely new OS?
Maybe I missed the point of the artical, but no where did he mention the pc was advertised as Linux compatible/ready.
The writer was not "expecting" support nor did he actually install linux on a preinstalled Windows box. The write was conducting an experiment to see how geeky the "Geek Squad" really was.
The results; "Geek Squad" not geeky. Even from companies that claim linux support(Dell), no one cold or would provide suport. Meaning that Linux while growing in enterprise is just not making a big dent in the consumer market.
The results; "Geek Squad" not geeky. Even from companies that claim linux support(Dell), no one cold or would provide suport. Meaning that Linux while growing in enterprise is just not making a big dent in the consumer market.
your exactly right, i worked for gateway for 5 years and we never support any software that you didn't buy with the system from us. and dell, hp are the same way, your really stupid if you thought it otherwise, here is what i used to tell people to make it easy for peons to understand: you buy and new dodge truck and have a problem do you take it to the ford dealer and expect them to fix your problem for free? hell no
Aren't they supposedly selling linspire pcs?
What people don't realize is that Linux adoption has to happen at corporations first before it invades homes. That's the way all computer-related rollouts have happened, with the noteable exception of Macs, which had it happen in educational realms. But the basic concept is the same. People get comfortable using something at work (school), and then they can use it at home. Period.
Hmmm....
Well you are correct in that we general don't support Linux users. I don't think it is fair to knock the Geek Squad techs as not geeky enough though. They are very good at what they are hired to do. Most of them, atleast at my store, are dabling in linux and starting get aware of it's capabilities, but it isn't a business focus for us, atleast as far as I am aware. I think the follow applies to just about any retailer...
A company, no matter what industry, needs to stay focused on what keeps them in business, making money. Right now, and I would say that this is hard to argue against, Linux is not totaly ready for prime time retail. Yes, Linspire is making HUGE strides towards that goal, and I AM a Linux Supporter (especially in the enterprise), but, the level of interest hasnt hit yet. The thing to remember is that, in BB, CC, CUSA... case, most of the people that come in to buy a computer don't care if it is windows or linux or (insert random OS) so long as it get's the job done. Most of them like Windows because it is what they are trained on in the workplace. What does this have to do with support? If you don't already see where this is going, stop reading, go back to your TUI, and keep typing away, you will not be able to see the forest for the trees and probobly have an elitest mindset that cannot tollerate a rational discussion. It means that if there isn't a high enough demand to train support staff for linux supprt, they aren't going to do it. But, if Geek Squad was recieving a trackable amount of service calls on Linux, I am SURE that there would be action towards pproviding that kind of support. Your results should not have supprised any one. I would almost say it is a good thing at this point for the average consumer because you konw that the investments in training and so on are being spent on what is currently mainstream. I would love to see BB start selling Linux based computers. Based on a unified distrobution. (like linspire) I think that we would sell a fair amount of them. but right now, it is on the compunity to deliver a product that will convince stratigic planners that there will be a good ROI on that kind of movement. Also, until HP, Gateway, Sony... start wanting to sell that kind of PC in the retail channel, you won't see it in a store. So if you REALLY want to make a change in that direction, let them know. The consumer has more control than they think. You ask, we deliver. It is how the system works.
Also, I would say that the Techs in my store are top noch. Most of them have good people skills and are able to comunicate with the customre so that they understand what went wrong, and how to prevent it from happening again. Please don't knock them for not knowing linux by saying they aren't "geeky enough". They are skilled int he areas they need to be to do a great job. It is hard for everyone to know everything. I personaly want the guy or gal working on an issue to be foccused on the area of that issue, and not a "jack of all trades".
If anyone would like to respond directly to me, feel free to do so:
bjjohnson_at_mailblocks.com
Thanks for your time!
Brad J
Well you are correct in that we general don't support Linux users. I don't think it is fair to knock the Geek Squad techs as not geeky enough though. They are very good at what they are hired to do. Most of them, atleast at my store, are dabling in linux and starting get aware of it's capabilities, but it isn't a business focus for us, atleast as far as I am aware. I think the follow applies to just about any retailer...
A company, no matter what industry, needs to stay focused on what keeps them in business, making money. Right now, and I would say that this is hard to argue against, Linux is not totaly ready for prime time retail. Yes, Linspire is making HUGE strides towards that goal, and I AM a Linux Supporter (especially in the enterprise), but, the level of interest hasnt hit yet. The thing to remember is that, in BB, CC, CUSA... case, most of the people that come in to buy a computer don't care if it is windows or linux or (insert random OS) so long as it get's the job done. Most of them like Windows because it is what they are trained on in the workplace. What does this have to do with support? If you don't already see where this is going, stop reading, go back to your TUI, and keep typing away, you will not be able to see the forest for the trees and probobly have an elitest mindset that cannot tollerate a rational discussion. It means that if there isn't a high enough demand to train support staff for linux supprt, they aren't going to do it. But, if Geek Squad was recieving a trackable amount of service calls on Linux, I am SURE that there would be action towards pproviding that kind of support. Your results should not have supprised any one. I would almost say it is a good thing at this point for the average consumer because you konw that the investments in training and so on are being spent on what is currently mainstream. I would love to see BB start selling Linux based computers. Based on a unified distrobution. (like linspire) I think that we would sell a fair amount of them. but right now, it is on the compunity to deliver a product that will convince stratigic planners that there will be a good ROI on that kind of movement. Also, until HP, Gateway, Sony... start wanting to sell that kind of PC in the retail channel, you won't see it in a store. So if you REALLY want to make a change in that direction, let them know. The consumer has more control than they think. You ask, we deliver. It is how the system works.
Also, I would say that the Techs in my store are top noch. Most of them have good people skills and are able to comunicate with the customre so that they understand what went wrong, and how to prevent it from happening again. Please don't knock them for not knowing linux by saying they aren't "geeky enough". They are skilled int he areas they need to be to do a great job. It is hard for everyone to know everything. I personaly want the guy or gal working on an issue to be foccused on the area of that issue, and not a "jack of all trades".
If anyone would like to respond directly to me, feel free to do so:
bjjohnson_at_mailblocks.com
Thanks for your time!
Brad J
Well Brad, I appreciate your spirited defense. (Some spelling and punctuation would help.) But it's obvious Best Buy is not listening to real customers. A lot of people have been pestering a lot of vendors for a lot of years to support Linux. Linux users buy all kinds of hardware, but get ripped off in terms of support- you take our money, but don't deliver the same support as windoze users get. (Not that Best Buy is known for good customer service under any circumstances.)
We all know it's fear of Microsoft that keeps most vendors from supporting Linux. Though maybe this is a good thing, because even though Windows customers get support in terms of preinstalls, boxed software, and drivers, technical and warranty support are almost universally sucky. At least in the Linux world you'll find actual expertise.
We all know it's fear of Microsoft that keeps most vendors from supporting Linux. Though maybe this is a good thing, because even though Windows customers get support in terms of preinstalls, boxed software, and drivers, technical and warranty support are almost universally sucky. At least in the Linux world you'll find actual expertise.
I am a Linux user myself, and have completely turned away from MS (no windows machines), but people continually make this argument. Bottom line is that if you are a Linux user, you are inherently computer savvy, because unsavvy computer users don't even know what Linux is, and this article somewhat shows that. And for the "Big retail computer vendors", I believe everyone needs to give them a break. The bottom line for these big stores is money, they are not in business to get an award for "best customer service", they are in business solely for making money. Until Linux makes a significant breakthrough, you can not blame these companies for not supporting it. It's basic economics, if you don't understand it now, you probably never will.
Brad, your high school English teacher called. She said it was "rediculous" to see the message in your post "loose" out to your atrocious spelling and grammar, and said she's going to fail you AGAIN if you don't learn to write proper English, something more like this...
"Hmmm.... Well you are correct in that we general don't support Linux users. I don't think it is fair to knock the Geek Squad techs as not geeky enough though. They are very good at what they are hired to do.
Most of them, at least at my store, are dabbling in Linux and starting get aware of it's capabilities, but it isn't a business focus for us, atleast as far as I am aware. I think the follow applies to just about any retailer... A company, no matter what industry, needs to stay focused on what keeps them in business, making money.
Right now, and I would say that this is hard to argue against, Linux is not totaly ready for prime time retail. Yes, Linspire is making HUGE strides towards that goal, and I AM a Linux Supporter (especially in the enterprise), but, the level of interest hasn't hit yet.
The thing to remember is that, in BB's, CC's, CUSA's... case, most of the people that come in to buy a computer don't care if it is Windows or Linux or (insert random OS) so long as it get's the job done. Most of them like Windows because it is what they are trained on in the workplace.
What does this have to do with support? If you don't already see where this is going, stop reading, go back to your TUI, and keep typing away, you will not be able to see the forest for the trees and probably have an elitest mindset that cannot tolerate a rational discussion.
It means that if there isn't a high enough demand to train support staff for Linux supprt, they aren't going to do it. But, if Geek Squad was receiving a trackable amount of service calls on Linux, I am SURE that there would be action towards providing that kind of support.
Your results should not have suprised any one. I would almost say it is a good thing at this point for the average consumer because you know that the investments in training and so on are being spent on what is currently mainstream.
I would love to see BB start selling Linux based computers. Based on a unified distribution (such as Linspire) I think that we would sell a fair amount of them. But right now, it is on the community to deliver a product that will convince strategic planners that there will be a good ROI on that kind of movement.
Also, until HP, Gateway, Sony... start wanting to sell that kind of PC in the retail channel, you won't see it in a store. So if you REALLY want to make a change in that direction, let them know. The consumer has more control than he thinks. You ask, we deliver. It is how the system works.
Also, I would say that the Techs in my store are top notch. Most of them have good people skills and are able to communicate with the customer so that they understand what went wrong, and how to prevent it from happening again.
Please don't knock them for not knowing Linux by saying they aren't "geeky enough". They are skilled in the areas they need to be to do a great job. It is hard for everyone to know everything. I personally want the guy or gal working on an issue to be focused on the area of that issue, and not a "jack of all trades".
If anyone would like to respond directly to me, feel free to do so:
bjjohnson_at_mailblocks.com
Thanks for your time! Brad J"
"Hmmm.... Well you are correct in that we general don't support Linux users. I don't think it is fair to knock the Geek Squad techs as not geeky enough though. They are very good at what they are hired to do.
Most of them, at least at my store, are dabbling in Linux and starting get aware of it's capabilities, but it isn't a business focus for us, atleast as far as I am aware. I think the follow applies to just about any retailer... A company, no matter what industry, needs to stay focused on what keeps them in business, making money.
Right now, and I would say that this is hard to argue against, Linux is not totaly ready for prime time retail. Yes, Linspire is making HUGE strides towards that goal, and I AM a Linux Supporter (especially in the enterprise), but, the level of interest hasn't hit yet.
The thing to remember is that, in BB's, CC's, CUSA's... case, most of the people that come in to buy a computer don't care if it is Windows or Linux or (insert random OS) so long as it get's the job done. Most of them like Windows because it is what they are trained on in the workplace.
What does this have to do with support? If you don't already see where this is going, stop reading, go back to your TUI, and keep typing away, you will not be able to see the forest for the trees and probably have an elitest mindset that cannot tolerate a rational discussion.
It means that if there isn't a high enough demand to train support staff for Linux supprt, they aren't going to do it. But, if Geek Squad was receiving a trackable amount of service calls on Linux, I am SURE that there would be action towards providing that kind of support.
Your results should not have suprised any one. I would almost say it is a good thing at this point for the average consumer because you know that the investments in training and so on are being spent on what is currently mainstream.
I would love to see BB start selling Linux based computers. Based on a unified distribution (such as Linspire) I think that we would sell a fair amount of them. But right now, it is on the community to deliver a product that will convince strategic planners that there will be a good ROI on that kind of movement.
Also, until HP, Gateway, Sony... start wanting to sell that kind of PC in the retail channel, you won't see it in a store. So if you REALLY want to make a change in that direction, let them know. The consumer has more control than he thinks. You ask, we deliver. It is how the system works.
Also, I would say that the Techs in my store are top notch. Most of them have good people skills and are able to communicate with the customer so that they understand what went wrong, and how to prevent it from happening again.
Please don't knock them for not knowing Linux by saying they aren't "geeky enough". They are skilled in the areas they need to be to do a great job. It is hard for everyone to know everything. I personally want the guy or gal working on an issue to be focused on the area of that issue, and not a "jack of all trades".
If anyone would like to respond directly to me, feel free to do so:
bjjohnson_at_mailblocks.com
Thanks for your time! Brad J"
I'm bothered by spelling and grammatical errors too. I rarely make such errors myself, and sometimes I forget that other brains are different than mine.
So if you can, give the poor guy a break. What really matters is that what he wrote was a reasonable and sympathetic effort at offering a balanced point of view. The other stuff is comparatively unimportant
With that said, I'd like to thank you for producing a more readable version of the text.
So if you can, give the poor guy a break. What really matters is that what he wrote was a reasonable and sympathetic effort at offering a balanced point of view. The other stuff is comparatively unimportant
With that said, I'd like to thank you for producing a more readable version of the text.
Re:/br and /p corrected version [pure irony]
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 22, 2005 06:31 AM
Ironic that the person complaining rudely about incorrect spelling and grammar left a glaring mistake in the first sentence.
Generally, not general.
Generally, not general.
Re:/br and /p corrected version [pure irony]
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 24, 2005 06:11 AM
I don't think it's rude to complain about poor spelling and grammar. Nor do I think it's rude to be taken aback at ghastly formatting.
Intelligence amounts to very little if you cannot effectively communicate with other people.
Intelligence amounts to very little if you cannot effectively communicate with other people.
Well,
I guess, yes I am a horrible speller. I am the first to admit it. I am a talented anylitical thinker and have a well developed public speaking talent. (I actually recieved acolades from my english teachers in highschool and recieved A's in those classes. I did regularly recieve marks against me for spelling and WRITTEN grammer.
If that is all you have to say about the post, then I would probobly lump you into the "can't see the forest for the trees group' and wish you luck in the world. as for formating, the form that I used to submit showed charage returns and paragraph spacing until it actually posted. Please contact News Forge if you have a serious problem with it. Otherwise, back off unless you have constructive crytisism with a well founded structure that includes all 240,000,000 citizens of the US comunity, not the small (respected none the less, and relative in terms) comunity of Open Source users. Further more, if you are a super savy Linux user, shouldn't you be able to find all the free support you need in comunity channels like the internet? Not all of this is aimed at the post I am responding to, it is just where it ended up.
Brad
bjjohnson_at_mailblocks_dot_com
I guess, yes I am a horrible speller. I am the first to admit it. I am a talented anylitical thinker and have a well developed public speaking talent. (I actually recieved acolades from my english teachers in highschool and recieved A's in those classes. I did regularly recieve marks against me for spelling and WRITTEN grammer.
If that is all you have to say about the post, then I would probobly lump you into the "can't see the forest for the trees group' and wish you luck in the world. as for formating, the form that I used to submit showed charage returns and paragraph spacing until it actually posted. Please contact News Forge if you have a serious problem with it. Otherwise, back off unless you have constructive crytisism with a well founded structure that includes all 240,000,000 citizens of the US comunity, not the small (respected none the less, and relative in terms) comunity of Open Source users. Further more, if you are a super savy Linux user, shouldn't you be able to find all the free support you need in comunity channels like the internet? Not all of this is aimed at the post I am responding to, it is just where it ended up.
Brad
bjjohnson_at_mailblocks_dot_com
No, those who criticize your spelling and punctuation, rather than your message, are by and large people who AGREE with your message -- but they want to help you get it across better.
There are two aspects to effective communication: Content and Presentation. You need them both. Your post was high on the content score, but if you want to get your point across, you have to present it properly as well. It's really just a matter of common courtesy and respect for your readers.
If you want to understand the forest, you have to be aware of the trees.
Furthermore, we're now an international community. I feel a little embarrased sometimes because english is the only language I know. I try to get my english right -- and most of the time, but not always, I succeed. Those who are not native english speakers face a challenge in understanding my message even when I present it right. Imagine how much trouble most people around the world will have figuring out your message if you can't get it right in ANY language!
There are two aspects to effective communication: Content and Presentation. You need them both. Your post was high on the content score, but if you want to get your point across, you have to present it properly as well. It's really just a matter of common courtesy and respect for your readers.
If you want to understand the forest, you have to be aware of the trees.
Furthermore, we're now an international community. I feel a little embarrased sometimes because english is the only language I know. I try to get my english right -- and most of the time, but not always, I succeed. Those who are not native english speakers face a challenge in understanding my message even when I present it right. Imagine how much trouble most people around the world will have figuring out your message if you can't get it right in ANY language!
Nice theory. The problem is that most Linux users don't bother calling the vendor in the first place. Those who do end up like the article writer: telling all their Linux-using friends not to bother because the vendor isn't interested.
So, even if we thought that the vendor was going to keep track of Linux requests in the first place, most Linux users have already opted out of the retail chain. The result is that the vendor thinks there's no demand, and the users have all gone elsewhere. Fine for the users, who will mostly find good support in the community; not so good for the vendors, because by the time they decide that there really is a market, most users will be buying their systems elsewhere.
So, even if we thought that the vendor was going to keep track of Linux requests in the first place, most Linux users have already opted out of the retail chain. The result is that the vendor thinks there's no demand, and the users have all gone elsewhere. Fine for the users, who will mostly find good support in the community; not so good for the vendors, because by the time they decide that there really is a market, most users will be buying their systems elsewhere.
That's called a paradigm shift.
The old ways and institutions get left behind before they even realize the change is happening.
The demand for Linux support is getting filled -- by the Linux community itself. It works for me.
The old ways and institutions get left behind before they even realize the change is happening.
The demand for Linux support is getting filled -- by the Linux community itself. It works for me.
I agree. This further supports my argument. It would not make enough money for the Big Box Stores to support it since the vast majority of Linux users go to the comunity for support.
Best Buy is by far the worst place to shop. Ignorant, unhelpful staff, bait-and-switch sale ads, and you have to fight tooth and nail to return anything.
Circuit City is #2 on the poo parade. You're lucky to be able to make a purchase, let alone get any kind of help. Not that being young = unskilled, but skilled persons find jobs that pay better.
CompUSA has all kinds of classes and support offerings, but they hire young and cheap. You get what you pay for.
You might as well shop at WalMart- they don't pretend to offer service, you just get good prices. And actual Linux products.
Circuit City is #2 on the poo parade. You're lucky to be able to make a purchase, let alone get any kind of help. Not that being young = unskilled, but skilled persons find jobs that pay better.
CompUSA has all kinds of classes and support offerings, but they hire young and cheap. You get what you pay for.
You might as well shop at WalMart- they don't pretend to offer service, you just get good prices. And actual Linux products.
I got a bait-and-switch deal at Fry's recently:
They offered a 120G hard drive for $60. When I got there, they didn't have any, but I got a 160G hard drive for $54 after rebate!
Sometimes you get lucky...
They offered a 120G hard drive for $60. When I got there, they didn't have any, but I got a 160G hard drive for $54 after rebate!
Sometimes you get lucky...
I would ask for an example of a bait and switch at Best Buy. I find that it is best to have facts to back up any claim. Otherwise, it is just slander, and that just makes a person look silly!
Local PC shops are more likely to support Linux than the big retail stores. The big stores don't look for, or reward, Linux knowledge so a lot of us end up owning our own little companies.
Unfortunately most of us can't afford much in the way of advertising so to find us you have to search online or find us through word of mouth (such as LUG lists). Usually you get a much better deal though. My own rates are $25/hr, which is much better than most places, and I can support Windows, Linux (and other forms of Unix), or MacOS.
Unfortunately most of us can't afford much in the way of advertising so to find us you have to search online or find us through word of mouth (such as LUG lists). Usually you get a much better deal though. My own rates are $25/hr, which is much better than most places, and I can support Windows, Linux (and other forms of Unix), or MacOS.
maybe in bigger towns that would work better, but for the most part, at least here in state college none of the local shops offer linux support. I happen to know linux very well, and have setup multiple linux setups, mostly as backend servers running samba and acting as a router, but beyond that we haven't done much linux work at all. Which, comes to the main reason why. If someone came in asking about linux, and my boss was the only one in the shop, they would run away faster than you can say linux. My boss would probably talk them to death over why windows xp would be a better choice for them, and how we could sell him it along with charging him $90 for installation. Honestly, I think we could make a good bit of money offering debian desktop installs customized for that customer at $90 (our regular service rate) not too mention we would get a name for being the only shop in the area that supports linux, but my boss just won't let it happen.
I've lived in some midwestern college towns and they had a pretty good offering of Linux help. When looking for that help you might have to ask on a local LUG group but it is usually there. If your boss doesn't want to do the Linux thing then why not freelance it in your spare time as your own company?
I usually work for $25 an hour which isn't bad when you're not cutting in the boss for the majority chunk of the profits. Of course what I don't tell the people who pay me is that if I wasn't messing with their Linux boxes I'd be sitting at home messing with mine anyway.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
I usually work for $25 an hour which isn't bad when you're not cutting in the boss for the majority chunk of the profits. Of course what I don't tell the people who pay me is that if I wasn't messing with their Linux boxes I'd be sitting at home messing with mine anyway.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
You mean they called it El-Eye-Nux?
Yeah, probably better to spell it out "Line Ux"--most people know what a line is. Or maybe just go with the correct way: "Lynn Ux" (anyone out there by that name?)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
"linnucks" might be the geeky way to say Linux, but it doesn't follow the rules of English pronunciation. I predict that as Linux use gains traction with the general public the "line-ucks" version will prevail. (Hmm, tough choice: geek-talk or world domination.)
I am speaking as a long-time Linux user with a Liberal Arts education.
I am speaking as a long-time Linux user with a Liberal Arts education.
Give me a break. Linus Torvalds invented the frigging kernel of this OS, and he has always said it is pronounced not like his name (Lye-nux) but like the Minix operating system (Lih-nux) he was trying to improve upon.
Wouldn't a "long time Linux user know that?"
Wouldn't a "long time Linux user know that?"
you're wrong on two counts here.
First linus didn't invent linux. He may have started it, but its not his work alone. At least 70%, if not more, of the linux kernel is done by other people.
Second linux is not an OS, its a kernel, which happens to be a very small, but important part of an entire OS.
This is what "long time linux users" know
.
First linus didn't invent linux. He may have started it, but its not his work alone. At least 70%, if not more, of the linux kernel is done by other people.
Second linux is not an OS, its a kernel, which happens to be a very small, but important part of an entire OS.
This is what "long time linux users" know
.
The question was about pronounciation.
And the answer, definitively, is for it to sound like "Lih-nuks," not "Lie-nuks."
And the answer, definitively, is for it to sound like "Lih-nuks," not "Lie-nuks."
And what makes you think that a "Liberal Arts" education makes you the arbiteur of how a Finnish man names his work?
Are you also going to tell me to pronounce "champagne" differnetly because the way I say it doesn't follow the rules of English?
For someone who thinks has a good education, you are rather ignorant.
Are you also going to tell me to pronounce "champagne" differnetly because the way I say it doesn't follow the rules of English?
For someone who thinks has a good education, you are rather ignorant.
it always has and unless you're willing to shell out lotsa $$$ for support contract from Novell or somebody, it always will.
Not that I mind RTFMing, and there are lots of manuals, howtos, lugs, and online forums that I've gotten virtually all my support issues solved within 24 hours.
The author doesn't say what distro he was using. It sounds to me that he kinda set the phone drones up to lose.
Not that I mind RTFMing, and there are lots of manuals, howtos, lugs, and online forums that I've gotten virtually all my support issues solved within 24 hours.
The author doesn't say what distro he was using. It sounds to me that he kinda set the phone drones up to lose.
Big Box Retailers dont' make money on Linux
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 05:28 AM
They make money selling M$ software and M$ compatible hardware that anyone can use if they know where the wall socket is in their house.
that anyone can use
Wrong. It should read: "that the majority THINKS they can use"
Owning a computer doesn't mean you can use it.
Wrong. It should read: "that the majority THINKS they can use"
Owning a computer doesn't mean you can use it.
I had similar experiences with my Lamborghini!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 05:58 AM
I Called my local Ford dealership, and they said they couldn't help me! I called my local Chevy dealership, and no go. I even called the Toyota place down the street and they just laughed. I can't believe it! I mean, these mechanics just aren't mechanechy enough!
Let's think about this guys...You can't get support for a product if the company doesn't provide support for it.
Not to mention the fact that NO computer tech worth his salt ends up working at Best Buy. Anyone who is the least bit skilled will be able to move up to bigger better things.
Let's think about this guys...You can't get support for a product if the company doesn't provide support for it.
Not to mention the fact that NO computer tech worth his salt ends up working at Best Buy. Anyone who is the least bit skilled will be able to move up to bigger better things.
That about sums it up. Nice analogy, by the way.
Re:I had similar experiences with my Lamborghini!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 11:48 PM
Piss-poor analogy.
The submitter states that he had installed Linux on a WinXP machine. The computer remained intact, whereas the software changed.
A closer analogy would be "I changed the radio in my Lamborghini..." but even then it would be a hardware issue, not software.
Nice troll, though.
The submitter states that he had installed Linux on a WinXP machine. The computer remained intact, whereas the software changed.
A closer analogy would be "I changed the radio in my Lamborghini..." but even then it would be a hardware issue, not software.
Nice troll, though.
Why Would They Support Something They Don't Sell?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 08:40 AM
This piece is phony.
My local CompUSA has a few dusty RedHat boxes sitting on the shelves, while the local Best Buy used to stock RedHat, but doesn't anymore. That's it for commercial Linux presence around here. ("Here" is Wake County, North Carolina, about 5 miles from RedHat world headquarters and 15 miles from ibiblio over in Chapel Hill. Not exactly Linux-free territory.)
Whining about lack of Linux support from businesses that do not sell Linux is a bit like whining because the kid at Starbuck's won't drive over and fix your broken coffeepot.
If people really want to do Linux some good, they might try creating a convincing case that retail stores can make money selling it. (Good luck on that.)
My local CompUSA has a few dusty RedHat boxes sitting on the shelves, while the local Best Buy used to stock RedHat, but doesn't anymore. That's it for commercial Linux presence around here. ("Here" is Wake County, North Carolina, about 5 miles from RedHat world headquarters and 15 miles from ibiblio over in Chapel Hill. Not exactly Linux-free territory.)
Whining about lack of Linux support from businesses that do not sell Linux is a bit like whining because the kid at Starbuck's won't drive over and fix your broken coffeepot.
If people really want to do Linux some good, they might try creating a convincing case that retail stores can make money selling it. (Good luck on that.)
Re:Why Would They Support Something They Don't Sel
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 09:06 AM
They have copies of SUSE 9.2 at my local BestBuy.
please wake up, this problem affects Windows too
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on January 21, 2005 09:03 AM
Ahem, I've seen salesmen who don't know the difference between an ATI and an NVIDIA graphics cards and who don't know anything about Windows, etc., and yet they are selling stuff.
This problem is a general problem of computer hardware/software salesmen not knowing their stuff and it affects all areas, not just Linux.
Just my point of view.
This problem is a general problem of computer hardware/software salesmen not knowing their stuff and it affects all areas, not just Linux.
Just my point of view.
There is a small computer shop in my town
that keeps busy fixing system changes
that were screwed up by Best Buy.
Best Buy has the worst geeks.
Find a good small shop with a friendy ultra-geek.
Shop there even if you pay more.
Make friends. Then politely slip in a few questions.
that keeps busy fixing system changes
that were screwed up by Best Buy.
Best Buy has the worst geeks.
Find a good small shop with a friendy ultra-geek.
Shop there even if you pay more.
Make friends. Then politely slip in a few questions.
"A call to the local store's service department revealed the company's 24/7 "dial-a-tech" support over the phone, chat, email, or the Web."
Is it just me? But wouldn't this work best in a telework form?
Is it just me? But wouldn't this work best in a telework form?
Do you know any good Geeks who will work for 10 buck s and hour? I do not know of any.
Here is a quote from a wise network admin.
Those who can't do teach.
Those who can't work consult.
Those who can't mow lawns, fix computers.
Here is a quote from a wise network admin.
Those who can't do teach.
Those who can't work consult.
Those who can't mow lawns, fix computers.
"Do you know any good Geeks who will work for 10 buck s and hour? I do not know of any."
Well let's see.
1) Those just starting out and need the experience more than the money.
2) Those downsized, outsized, and rightsized, or whom's Enron retirement fund got raided, and find that money spends better than pride.
"Here is a quote from a wise network admin."
The original BOFH.
Well let's see.
1) Those just starting out and need the experience more than the money.
2) Those downsized, outsized, and rightsized, or whom's Enron retirement fund got raided, and find that money spends better than pride.
"Here is a quote from a wise network admin."
The original BOFH.
Do you know any good Geeks who will work for 10 buck s and hour? I do not know of any.
Here is a quote from a wise network admin.
Those who can't do teach.
Those who can't work consult.
Those who can't mow lawns, fix computers.
Here is a quote from a wise network admin.
Those who can't do teach.
Those who can't work consult.
Those who can't mow lawns, fix computers.
Ever Heard of "Geeks On Call"
You can ask them to find a tech who does linux and they will call around and find one for you
They will stick to it till they find a tech who can help you!
You can ask them to find a tech who does linux and they will call around and find one for you
They will stick to it till they find a tech who can help you!
A Company in Colorado handles Linux Support calls for something like $125.oo per incedent. They really know their stuff also. Ruffdogs.
How would a support call really go? Let's see - first question... Which distro are you running? OK, now let's just assume it's one of the more popular ones and that the tech does know something about the distro in question. Now where? Say the question is how do I get my dialer to connect to my ISP. Which dialer? A search of freshmeat shows 25 projects when searching for dialer... say half of those are PPP dialers (No, I didn't check but I am sure that a search of sourceforge will turn up more.) Does the tech have to know all of them? How about which compile options you used? How about your kernel version - which patch level are you running? How about modem setup, devfs, kernel compile options, which init type do you use, how about if it's an X based one - do they have to know X - how about AccelX, XFree86 - maybe the X config is making something not show up the way it should and it's not really a dialer problem.
I'm all for choice and although not a Linux advocate - I do use it and have been since the Mnix days - expecting a tech at the local Best Buy to be able to answer with any amount of authority is asking a little much. At the least you are going to find a kid who installed a distro on an extra machine at home and knows how to install a RPM (if anything) at the most you are probably going to get someone who knows what Linux is and will sit on the phone talking to you about the latest kernel patched and yellat you for using X when everything you want to do is available on the command line.
Linux needs face to face support on the ground.
Advertise in your local paper, on your local community radio station, flyers, posters<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....
Leave your Linux Support business card at all the local computer shops and retailers.
Tell anyone that linux support is available and give them your business card.
Educate the masses, see if you can get advertorial space in the local paper, tell them people are interested, they will be when they hear you haven't had a virus problem for X years, (8 for me)
Advertise in your local paper, on your local community radio station, flyers, posters<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....
Leave your Linux Support business card at all the local computer shops and retailers.
Tell anyone that linux support is available and give them your business card.
Educate the masses, see if you can get advertorial space in the local paper, tell them people are interested, they will be when they hear you haven't had a virus problem for X years, (8 for me)
All this talk about Linux not going anywhere is silly.
If are a Linux user, and you ever (EVER) leave your house, you know very well that the average computer store clerk has about 1/10 of one percent the computing knowledge that you have.
Yes, Linux is still for the advanced user. It may be that way for some time... but that doesn't mean that it's "not going anywhere".
If are a Linux user, and you ever (EVER) leave your house, you know very well that the average computer store clerk has about 1/10 of one percent the computing knowledge that you have.
Yes, Linux is still for the advanced user. It may be that way for some time... but that doesn't mean that it's "not going anywhere".
linux
Posted by: ankitmalik on January 20, 2005 10:32 PM" Linux is just not spreading like fire. Linux users are forever flooded with Linux news, distros and advocacies and so they think that everyone is hearing about Linux news, distros, advocacies.
But in reality, no one pays a damn to it!"
At that moment, I wanted to punch that guy but after reading this, I realise, he was somehow correct. And that Linux is not going many places.
My personal view why it is not going everywhere is the
a) enormous amnt of distros each with its personal problems<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D
b) a community forever fighting between KDE vs. Gnome and distro-wars
Dont get me wrong! I am trying to be +ve but unless we cross these hurdles [IMHO] Linux wont go many places
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