Linux.com

The ideal is, of course, to make software patents illegal. This will not happen, at least in the U.S. The alternative is to be sure that our free software does not infringe any patents. IBM's move is a good start, but it should be considered only a temporary measure until any infringing code can be rewritten to remove patented methods. I hope this trend does not encourage developers to use patented methods because they are covered, for now. Any "infringing" code, even if IBM says its OK, should be considered "non-free".

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The ideal is, of course, to make software patents illegal. This will not happen, at least in the U.S.

Really? What if the rest of the world continues to reject software patents and Open Source begins to completely dominate the industry. The US will be faced with the choice of either eliminating software patents or becoming irrelevant in the marketplace. By that time, Open Source companies, not the handful of proprietary megacorp bastards we have today, will be the primary voice in Washington.

The alternative is to be sure that our free software does not infringe any patents.

That's not a technically feasible option. Nearly every piece of software in existance infringes on at minimum dozens of patents. (easily hundreds for any large package..) Many patents are so broad or so obvious that they simply cannot be avoided. The only option today is to code as if software patents don't exist. If a problem arises, then you get a lawyer and fight back. If too many developers start getting sued simultaneously, a new voice emerges, people take to the streets in protest, and if necessary, civil disobedience becomes widespread until politicians wake up to reality. None of that has happened yet, so for now the best defense is a strong offense: make Open Source software mainstream so that there are too many people to sue and there is too much power in our numbers.

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There is just too many broad patents.

Here are a few stupid ones from Microsoft:
Tabbed Browsing (no tab button functionality on a browser)
Double Clicking
Trash Can
Fast User Switching (unix/linux always had this: atl+F#)

It seams like the patent office is just patenting anything that comes their way. There are even patents that are the same as others. Innovators use fancy language to cover the obviousness.

Like trademarks however, if you don't protect your patents, it can lose its luster, like trademarks.

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The Europeans have a chance to make sure that software patent systems like ours in the USA don't take root. It's ironic that Microsoft, who has been bitten by multiple patent suits and paid lots of money, is not lobbying for the software patent system's demise.

RMS is correct on this. Sadly, I find it doubtful that Sun will do like IBM started doing, until and unless Sun is one step from closing its doors. The reason is that Sun is now too far in bed with Microsoft. I applaud Sun's support of Free Software, especially OpenOffice.org, and I thank them profusely. If only they would simply go the whole distance...they could once again be in the server space what Apple aspires to be.

I see trouble for us here in the good ol' USofA with this. Lots of trouble.

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There is nothing magical about Europe, nor are we somehow smarter than the rest of the world. In fact sometimes I wish our own leaders were 1/10th as smart as one of the American presidents - take your pick on which one, it doesn't matter. Our leaders are too busy patting themselves on the back, trying to become a 2nd super power (France mostly). Meantime they can't see the forest for the trees. I think they are much more corrupt than the American politicians as well. Just look at the oil for food scandel that they are trying to hide for example (something our American friends should know about, maybe?).

Microsoft on the other hand has an interest in soft patents. Yes they have been burned but they are very adaptive and learn fast. They will use patents that they have aquired to beat the rest of the world over the head with like a club. A cornered animal fights very fearcely, so will M$ if they are loosing too much market share. I have also read that M$ is trying to get governments like Ireland, Germany and Belgium (probably others) to help get Soft patents done the way they want them. Storm clouds on the horizon! The real scary part is that I don't think that the American politicians nor the European politicians understand the subject matter that they are writting the laws for. I would hate to think that they pass stupid laws intentionally.

Sorry if my English sucks! Big credit = alta vista babelfish.

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One long-term tactic for fighting software patents may be to make CS academics aware of the danger that software patents pose to their own research. If the professors teaching our future developers oppose software patents, many of their students will too.

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But who is applying for the patents anyway? Developers or lawyers. Future lawyers should be told that they will be shot when the revolutions comes if they have submitted any (software) patent. That will teach them!

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or just shoot all the lawyers and law professors so there are no more lawyers and we don't have to bother dealing with them at all.

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According to <A HREF="http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20050130#looking_back_on_commodities" title="sun.com">Jonathan Schwartz</a sun.com>, those <A HREF="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6209575.WKU.&OS=PN/6209575&RS=PN/6209575" title="uspto.gov">IBM patents</a uspto.gov> aren't all they appear - looks like they added a load of irrelevant ones just to bring the numbers up, and they're all old and about to expire. Exactly how is the GPL community helped by a patent on tamper-proof screws? At least Sun's patents are the ones you need to make derivative works from OpenSolaris under the OSI-approved CDDL.

As usual, IBM played the community and won good publicity and Sun did the right thing and gets slammed by people like Stallman who don't look past the words and the dogma to see the reality.

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Jonathan Schwartz are just as lost as you are. RMS is saying that IBM is telling us they wont whack us over the head with some of their patents. Sun isn't. That's the bloody difference.

Someone, A, is telling us they, A, wont hurt us, somebody else, B, is telling us they, B, might. Guess who I trust?

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Well, it sounds like Sun is promising that they won't WHACK us, but only if we are playing in their ballgame. Open Solaris is in fact open in the sense that you can look at it, modify it, and re-distribute your changes, but only in the context of Open Solaris. There's a 12 foot fence around it to keep the CDDL in and the GPL out. Oh, and if you are developing under the GPL (for something other than Open Solaris, obviously) there is no indication that Sun won't come after you. In addition, now that the patents are all out there in the open, if you DO violate them, they are likely to REALLY pound you into the ground!

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Did any of you knuckleheads actually go read Jonathan's blog and follow the links to the patents in question? If you do, you'll realize how foolish you look defending IBM's actions while attacking Sun.

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Check out the coverage on <A HREF="http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050201024326302" title="groklaw.net">Groklaw</a groklaw.net>. No, I didn't go to see Sun take pot-shots at IBM. Yes, I'm willing to give Sun credit for making moves in the right direction, but as PJ says:

What would make the community feel more comfortable would be legal language they could rely on. It doesn't need to be fancy, just clear. I'm sure Sun has no trouble with the concept of wanting legal matters set in writing that both sides comprehend and can legally rely on. I am positive they wouldn't enter into any agreement without such guarantees in writing for itself. Why should the community receive less?

It doesn't take a SCO Rocket Scientist to tell that SUN has been inconsistent in their support of FREE Software, or other systems that use it. They have been great at some things, and downright nasty about others. There is no doubt that they want to sink Linux (and Linux companies such as Red Hat) in favor of Solaris. They still want to control the market. They certainly aren't spewing the same caustic rhetoric as MS is, but that doesn't mean we let down our guard and go scrambling over any crumbs they toss in our direction.

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"Did any of you knuckleheads actually go read Jonathan's blog and follow the links to the patents in question?"

Yes indeed I did.

Dear Mr. Schwartz is again stamping his feet and crying, "Look at the wookie!" Just as he did to Red Hat, he carefully focuses on one tiny piece of the picture and makes lots of noise about it. Just as he did in his open letter to Palmisano when he cried for support, even though each and every bit of software he mentioned is already supported by IBM on Linux and Schwartz had already claimed that "Open" Solaris will be able to run all Linux binaries.

Did you bother looking at the patents IBM listed in their legally binding pledge of non-assertion? Or do you get your news about IBM only from Sun? Do you trust Ford to tell you the whole truth about GM? Where is Sun's legally binding pledge of non-assertion?

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In fact, if you look at the CDDL and compare it to the GPL, you'll see that it's the GPL that prevents mixing with the CDDL.

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Jonathan Schwartz poking at the IBM patent releases and saying they are useless? Well DUH! What would you expect him to say??

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Microscoff just loves this company called sun

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If you think Microsoft and Sun are having a love in you're smoking something. As <A HREF="http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/004062.html" title="nwsource.com">Scott McNealy said</a nwsource.com>,

"Sun and Microsoft shaking hands is a little like two boxers tapping gloves just before they beat the living daylights out of each other."

The real love-in is <A HREF="http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/xseries/windows/icmt.html" title="ibm.com"> IBM and Microsoft</a ibm.com> - check that link to see a company that's really committed to Linux.

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The Treacherous Computing link is incorrect it should be http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html

not http://trends.newsforge.com/http://www.gnu.org/ph<nobr>i<wbr></nobr> losophy/can-you-trust.html

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I believe OSS will eventually triumph over the patent problem. While not a quick fix, adding a "patent shredder" to "copyleft" with a Greater GPL is part of the solution. I've written a note describing what I mean:
<A HREF="http://www.pagesmiths.com/category-ip.html" title="pagesmiths.com">http://www.pagesmiths.com/category-ip.html</a pagesmiths.com>

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Well short of thousands, and very close to 500.

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Dude, are you kidding? IBM has only 540 patents? If you typed 2+2 in your calculator and it returned 5, would you believe it?

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Really. I got 39220 hits searching on "IBM" or "International Business Machines" in the Assignee Name field in the USPTO database.

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The fact that you can't tell which answer is correct, let alone find out anything useful about them is part of the problem. The system is designed to protect the first piece of paperwork sent in, not to decide any merit, and certainly not to help *at all* in resolving the disputes it creates.



--jeremy

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Give it up Stallman, at every turn you're outwitted and outgunned.

You're worried about Intellectual Ventures? Well there's more in the pipes for you and free software, I guarantee. I've been formulating a new strategy which will reduce your free software movement to the outskirts of mainstream society, similar to the dope smoking hippie community of yesteryear.

Your so called war on software patents is lost. You will lose the battle in Europe, which seems to be the last bastion of hope for your cadre. The politicians and people will not change the laws as they reliase to stay competitive in the world, they must be able to protect their corporations using IP. As every year passes, more and more countries adopt patent laws in order to harmonise with the rest of the world. Increasingly that means providing patent protection for software and soon, business methods.

From your friendly patent attorney.

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Good luck, Microsoft. The realworld cant afford you crap.

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Heeeeey, wait a minute, the US are not the "REST OF THE WORLD"! And please shut up!

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Do "Friendly Patent Attorney"s read this? Could this be FUD trying desperately to make an impression? Maybe Daryl McBride. No, he is preoccupied right now.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050126<nobr>0<wbr></nobr> 1161059
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/31/canopy_su<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> d/

Perhaps it is Brian Connolly ready to strike again. Oh wait, he is still licking his wounds.

http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/11/<nobr>0<wbr></nobr> 5/1831253&tid=147

I should stop this rant before Jeff V. Merkey has me scalped.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/index.php?p=10<nobr>9<wbr></nobr>

Back to the so called "Attorney"...

The clock is ticking and Microsoft is shaking in it's boots. Without a specific company to sink they are trying to make U.S. court decisions enforcable as international treaty?

http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html
http://informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtm<nobr>l<wbr></nobr> ?articleID=49401224
http://www.ftc.gov/opp/global/bobkohn.htm
http://www.ustr.gov/Document_Library/Fact_Sheets/<nobr>2<wbr></nobr> 002/Free_Trade_with_Singapore_America's_First_Fre<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> _Trade_Agreement_in_Asia.html
http://www.oxfamamerica.org/newsandpublications/n<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> ws_updates/archive2003/art5172.html

If so, then Microsoft will patent everything just to be sure.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/02/11/ms_patent<nobr>s<wbr></nobr> _everything/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/14/ms_fat_pa<nobr>t<wbr></nobr> ent_reexamined/

Just in case they miss something, they will trick the worlds best and brightest minds into giving them more ideas to patent.

http://imagine.thespoke.net/registration/
http://imagine.thespoke.net/w3c/terms_of_use.html
http://imagine.thespoke.net/w3c/privacy.html

You can even look at the "Latest Ideas that they may patent here:

http://www.thespoke.net/Hubs/Hubs_Developer.aspx

The reality is that Windows could not withstand a challange today from Apple as it did in the 80's. Nor could Apple defend itself against a case-law based lawsuit from Xerox over the same issues. The software that was ripped off back in the day would have "Royalty"ed Microsoft right out of business.

The Linux community is not intimidated by those that regularly go to court and lose.

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-268764.html?legacy=<nobr>c<wbr></nobr> net
http://www.forbes.com/technology/enterprisetech/f<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> eds/ap/2004/08/28/ap1522272.htm
http://www.instantmessagingplanet.com/enterprise/<nobr>a<wbr></nobr> rticle.php/3110441
http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2000-04/sun<nobr>f<wbr></nobr> lash.20000403.4.html

We have our own allies and their assets range in the trillions. They have names like China, National Security Agency, and Munich.

http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-1010740.html

There are many others as well.

http://news.com.com/Google%2C+Cisco+fail+to+win+p<nobr>a<wbr></nobr> tent+reform+bid/2100-1030_3-5542214.html?tag=nl

Finally, My 70+ year old parents use Linux daily. My local library uses it. My hospital and their lab use it. Several schools in the area are using it in their classrooms. Do you really think that Linux won't go mainstream? Fool. Go bury your head in FUD cause that's all that you're going to end up with.

Sincerely,

Anonymous A+ N+ CCDA CCNA CCAI

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Sound like you've had a bad day. And if your attitude is anything to go by, good.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

Software development works much better when software patent attorneys are unable to parasitise.

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Yarr! I be setting sail to the Multinational Main where there be Microsoft Galleons laden with millions of pounds of Intellectual Property. Me and the lads'll broadside her and rake her with fire from our 40 pounder gnus. Then we'll board her, take her bounty and send her to the bottom!

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Sun's <A HREF="http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/speakers/speakers_hamilton.php" title="socallinuxexpo.org">Marc Hamilton</a socallinuxexpo.org> will be speaking about Sun's open source plans at <A HREF="http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/" title="socallinuxexpo.org">SCALE 3x</a socallinuxexpo.org> in Los Angeles, CA on Feb 12-13, 2005. For a free exhibit hall pass use the promotional code "FREE" or "NEWSP" for a discounted pass.

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I've no first hand information, but looks like the free software guyes in Europe have a hard time fighting IBM pro software patents lobbyist...

<A HREF="http://www.techworld.com/applications/features/index.cfm?featureid=1128" title="techworld.com">From here</a techworld.com>:

Florian Mueller, campaign manager of NoSoftwarePatents.com, a European
anti-software patenting effort, spoke harshly about IBM's pledge,
calling it "diversionary tactics."

The European Union (EU) has been considering adopting software patenting
practices. IBM - which holds about 40,000 worldwide patents - is among
the companies lobbying strongly for it to happen, according to Mueller.

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