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Debian Common Core Alliance loses 'Debian' from its name

By David 'cdlu' Graham on October 19, 2005 (8:00:00 AM)

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Lacking permission from the Debian project to call itself Debian anything, the Debian Common Core Alliance has agreed to change its name to the recursive DCC Alliance, but, according to Debian, has so far refused to remove Debian's logo from its own logo or issue any formal press release about the change or why it took place.

Progeny, Linspire, Xandros, and at least six other Debian-based distribution companies announced last August at Linuxworld that they planned to create a common set of packages and software at the core of their distributions. They're still saying they're going to make a Debian Core, but the Debian Project says it doesn't have anything to do with the legally trademarked Debian distribution.

Former Debian Project Leader Ian Jackson posted a message to the Debian-Project mailing list on Monday explaining the situation and demanding action. Shortly thereafter Debian developer Don Armstrong followed with an update to the same list. Current Debian Project Leader (DPL) Branden Robinson had appointed Armstrong to resolve the issues with the DCC Alliance in August in the interests of avoiding any appearance of conflict of interest related to Robinson's current employment with a DCCA member.

In an interview on the topic, Robinson said, "No employee of a DCCA member company has asked me to take a certain position, nor have I felt in any way pressured to 'go easy' on DCCA due to my employment by a member company." In spite of this, he say he "was not consulted about the DCCA initiative before it was launched, though [DCCA leader and founder of Progeny] Ian Murdock and [Progeny CEO] Garth Dickey did both seek my counsel subsequently."

Robinson said that part of the advice he gave to Murdock and Dickey on how to handle a relationship with Debian was "that the DCCA do its level best to become a Debian subproject, as debian-edu and debian-sci are. It's my understanding that Michael Meskes of Credativ independently reached the same conclusion and has been working on that. And that's a good idea not just for trademark reasons. The DCCA should resolve the trademark issue with Debian apart from the question of becoming a subproject, but *being* a subproject helps to insure that there is a closer relationship so the DCCA member companies don't do things that take the Debian community by surprise.

"Debian's relationship with the DCC Alliance beyond the dispute over the use of the Debian trademark is not completely clear yet," Robinson said. "DCCA's relationship with Debian [is] still in the formative stages.... It can take a lot of time for these things to become clear, especially in this case, as I feel that DCCA itself has not yet finished forging its own identity.

"As far as trademark enforcement goes, I think DCCA is well aware that they are under the Debian Project's microscope. It's not my understanding that Debian has to send DCCA a cease-and-desist order every 48 hours to establish a cause of action on the trademark infringement front."

While Debian has so far convinced the DCCA to change its name, the logo remains, and the organisation's Web site still implies that the Alliance is directly related to Debian.

Whether the DCCA has the right to use the logo is itself a matter of debate. The Debian Open Use Logo License allows anyone to use the logo in reference to Debian, but the Debian project's insistence on the removal of the word "Debian" from the DCCA's name calls that right into question here. The matter of the logo is complicated by the fact that "we don't actually have that mark registered," according to Armstrong.

Negotiations between Debian and the DCC Alliance over the use of the logo are ongoing, as is discussion about the DCC Alliance's exact role within Debian.

David Graham is a member and officer of the board of directors of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., Debian's legal arm.

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on Debian Common Core Alliance loses 'Debian' from its name

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My 2 cents

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 01:32 AM
The logo issue is not a real issue, Debian developers need to stop whining about it.

DCC needs to become a subproject.

I hope the DCC is able to help Debian accomplish modularization.

I hope that the DCC is able to create a certification program that can be used to feed the LPI certification process.

I hope that they are successful enough that someday Ubuntu can join and companies like Adobe, etc. feel that there is a workable environment for ISVs.

And I hope that the DCC, freedesktop.org, and others will be able to create a environment that is less chaotic for small developers to work in.

I'm even hoping for some miracle with the LSB, the DCC, and Debian.

Well, I hope for lots of stuff. I'm sick of Windows.

Most of all I hope that the DCC finds a place as a Debian subproject even if it merely turns the DCC into a unified set of contributions to other Debian subprojects from the DCC distro vendors.

And also that Debian developers don't reject all input from the DCC or anyone else just because they aren't "official".

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Debian should not be distracted by this fluff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 03:02 AM
If the Debian developers spent as much time worrying about the details of their release as they do about this nonsense with the DCCA, we'd have a better, more frequently released Debian. Shut up and code!

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Re:Debian should not be distracted by this fluff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 04:35 AM
> Shut up and code!

Yes master! Right away! Oh when did you want your code ready? Tomorrow - no problem - let me call my wife and kids saying I'm not coming home for dinner.

Oh btw Sir!.....would it be possible for you to loan me some money? Rent day is coming up and we don't have any formula for the baby. If you don't have it, no worries, I can completely understand that you don't have money for free software.

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Re:Debian should not be distracted by this fluff

Posted by: superbenk on October 20, 2005 10:10 AM
Last I checked, arguing over silly stuff like this didn't pay very well either. At least working together and progressing a really useful idea provides 1) a sense of accomplishment & 2) a decent product that helps others do well (including the developers I'd think). What does this squabbling achieve? Why are these squabbles so harshly against the likes of Ian anyhow? Didn't he *create* Debian?! For the argument that "no one is making any money *sob*" it sure sounds like big business beaurocracy to me. Lets move on.

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Re:Debian should not be distracted by this fluff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 11:20 PM
"Debian" is nothing more, legally, than a trademark. You're asking that Debian ignore a threat to it's very existence. Ignoring a trademark infringement loses you the trademark.

Oh, a free software distribution would still exist if the trademark were lost. It (and a ton of derivative distributions) would probably all call themselves Debian. Some of them would be very incompatible even though they all called themselves Debian, and there would be much confusion. apt-get wouldn't work well anymore, due to the mixture of authority. Fights might well break out over control of the debian.org domain and the mirror network.

The confusion would cause a loss of userbase, and lead to a loss in developers and interest. The world would lose the comprehensive Linux distribution that is Debian.

So, attempting to regularize a trademark infringement is a pretty small price to pay to still have Debian in a few years time.

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Seem like drama to anyone else?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 06:51 AM
Wow, totally unnessecary power struggle. Can't we all just trust each other to do our best?

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Important: Debian is a *sovereign* project

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2005 11:33 AM
Anyone can say anything about this issue, but we should all remember that the Debian developer community is the sole and supreme authority to rule on these matters (including the use of the name "Debian") by means of a general resolution. The name "Debian" is *not* for anyone to use for any purpose, no matter how well-intentioned.

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Isn't everyone using Ubuntu?

Posted by: ThoreauHD on October 20, 2005 08:57 PM
What's this Debian that you speak of. Is that the thing with incompatible packages for Ubuntu?

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which is it?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 03:03 AM
are you breathtakingly ignorant, or breathtakingly dishonest, or both?

And no - "everyone" is not using Ubuntu. But Ubuntu (and Knoppix, Mepis, etc.) does use Debian..

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Re:which is it?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 04:18 AM
are you breathtakingly ignorant, or breathtakingly dishonest, or both?

I think he was just trying to be breathtakingly funny. OK, he's no Jerry Seinfeld, but I chuckled.

The subtext, of course, is that Ubuntu is rapidly gaining in popularity such that some fear it will eclipse its parent. And the incompatible packages bit was turning Ian Murdock's argument about Ubuntu package compatibility on its head.

I'll point out though, before ducking, that none of this swiping would be necessary if Debian simply had a decent, regular release process. Congratulations on Sarge, guys, but what's the plan for the next go-round? Ubuntu may technically be a fork of Debian in terms of code, and people get their hackles up about that, but the MUCH larger issue - and this relates directly to the DCCA - is that by being their own stabilized branch of Sid, Ubuntu is in fact a major fork of the Debian release process. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, somebody had to do it, but it'd be nice if it were Debian proper that had its crap together and came up with a regular release process. Neither Debian nor the DCCA will mean much in the future if Sarge+1 and Sarge+2 are moving targets that nobody can count on ever arriving. Right now we're duplicating all of that stabilization and release effort, with Debian being completely unpredictable and Ubuntu having a time-based, predictable release schedule and support lifecycle - two completely separate stabilizations of Sid, where only one is needed. If Debian's releases become predictable and understandable (they don't have to follow the Gnome/Ubuntu model, but an actual workable plan would be nice), Ubuntu could simply become yet another CDD - maybe even one eligible for membership in the DCCA. Here's hoping.

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no need do duck anything :-)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2005 09:15 PM
unlike the other dude, at least you make sense<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

Free software is also about *options*. The Debian release process is designed for Debian and those who like myself, put stability as a top priority and I would be really pissed off if Debian changed it. However, Ubuntu provides a great alternative to those who would put predictability and being up to date as their priority. I have no problems with that at all, in fact, I think that Ubuntu takes pressure *off* the Debian project to release more often and thereby compromise stablity.

In economic terms, we have a case of "market differentiation" which is only for the good of all.

This being said - you would have to admit that a distro which is exactly 1/15th in size of Debian is simply in a different business. Nothing wrong with that, but they should not be seen as competing but rather complementing each other.

I personally will stick with Debian, but I will gladly pass on Ubuntu disks to my newbie friends.

Cheers!

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