Linux.com

Seriously, I have no idea how the heck Ubuntu is more popular than Suse. OpenSuse, in my mind at least, it leaps ahead of any other desktop distro out there. It's really not even close. Sure, not every single piece of software is available from the Suse repos, but it's not too outrageous to find a repo that has what you need. I've used Suse for several years now and the only issue I've ever had is the new knotify crash bug, but that is really nothing but a small nuisance. Those who say Linux isn't a dekstop OS really isn't trying very hard, if at all.

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We should not be having to try that hard... that is the point. Plug and Play. What does the consmer want. GO out on the stree and ask that question to the first 50 people you meet and ask what they are looking for in a software product.


  They will want one thing....


      ONE WORD:


                        VALUE...!

Hey, when they got Ximain and SuSE, Novell bought most of the stack they needed. But, the feeling out here is that they are reserving the "goodies" for their enterprise level deployments. The lure of the Ubuntu Manifesto (see the site) is the reason for the interest.

I would stay with SuSE (as I am using it now), but I hate it when I spend money for something, and I spend other people's money as they buy what I tell them to buy, and as a result one discovers that we end up with only a fraction of what one could expect in the market these days).


                  APPLE! MICROSOFT!

Hey, it is 2006, not 1989. You can not even mention Novell SuSE in the same breath as these two players (feature wise out of the box)!

Windows was invented along time ago... Xerox, Apple, Microsoft,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and we are still forcing folks to use the command line? If SuSE want to rise above it all and they can. Then, they gotta lift their offering to at least the equal of what Microsoft or Apple offers out of the box. Consumers will pay for features! We do every day when we go with a double buger, extras on our vehicles we buy, etc. FEATURES RULE. SuSE needs a better and more complete feature list (in order to get away with what they are charging retail)!

Otherwise - I we gotta load our own multi-media, hack at the command line, risk unstable updates, why not use the lower overhead to produce Ubuntu?

I am looking for a small business replacement for Windows... and from what I have seen so far, we need more applications, and SOLID SUPPORT for the term of the offered support in the marketing literature. I don't see Ubuntu as the answer as there is a question about support over the long haul. Shuttlworth is scratching his head about that one... and maybe his model will be interesting in a few years once there is a track record. SuSE has Ubuntu beaten in several areas... BRAND IS ONE BIG ONE.

Novell has got the stack. They got the interest of the consumer! Novell already has a long and respected track record. Now they need to sing the song that everyone wants to buy.

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"...we are still forcing folks to use the command line?"

There's absolutely no reason for the average user to even know the command line exists, never mind have to use it, under SuSE 10.0.

"they gotta lift their offering to at least the equal of what Microsoft or Apple offers out of the box. Consumers will pay for features!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... SuSE needs a better and more complete feature list (in order to get away with what they are charging retail)!"

SuSE (and most other Linux distros) has far more features available out of the box than Windows and Mac OS combined. The default installation includes OpenOffice.org, media players, e-mail program, web browser, chat tools (IM and VoIP), and miriad other programs.

As for cost, I paid £40 for my copy of SuSE Linux 10.0, but could have downloaded it for nothing if I wanted to.

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[quote]Seriously, I have no idea how the heck Ubuntu is more popular than Suse.[/quote]

i am using linux for 10 years now among other operating systems. from slackware to ubuntu on the desktop i came along suse v4-9. ubuntu was the first release that took away the pain for patching the kernel (for a lot of hardware on my laptop). the default settings are reasonable for "joe average" and a power user - if it gets hairy i'll open a term anyway.

and then, ubuntu is built upon "Debian GNU/linux". if you have not ever uses apt, you may be thinking rpm's are a nice thing.

oh and while we are at Debian, read their manifesto<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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"Ubuntu was the first release that took away the pain for patching the kernel"

Wow, welcome to the 1990's. I've been using Linux since 10 years as well, and SUSE Linux since 5.0, and I haven't even recompiled a kernel since about 5 years.

"if you have not ever uses apt, you may be thinking rpm's are a nice thing."

First of all, APT is a package manager frontend. I suppose you mean DPKG. Granted, DPKG has some nice features for advanced users RPM hasn't but I really don't think it makes a difference to 95% of users. Oh, and by the way, APT(-RPM) and Synaptic are available for SUSE Linux 10.0 too. As well as yast2, smart, yum and redcarpet.

"oh and while we are at Debian, read their manifesto<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)"

Sure, and it's good to have the Debian folks out there working on their project. Debian is a very good distribution, no question about it but...
1) Ubuntu is not Debian (Ubuntu is actually making a silent fork off Debian and won't have much package compatibility left in some time, it's just happening slowly so most don't notice)
2) SUSE Linux 10.0 has a 100% FOSS version for you to download for free (as will 10.1 and other upcoming releases). I know the Debian manifesto, but why should Debian get the credit for being the only, really, true FOSS distribution ? That's just plain crap. Credit where its due, but SUSE Linux is just as Free and Open Source as Debian.

And BTW, Novell (as does Redhat) has a pretty long list of FOSS developers on various major FOSS projects on their payroll. So please, not this religious Debian stuff.

I'm not bashing Debian nor Ubuntu by any means. Both are excellent distributions, one for the server, the other for the desktop. But most of that Ubuntu thing is hype and marketing. SUSE Linux has been delivering easy of use (and yet full featured and powerful), robustness and good packages for years now. I'm not saying everyone should be using SUSE Linux either. Just that it deserves a lot more credit and is superior to Ubuntu in several areas, especially those that Ubuntu is hyping so much as being its strenghts.
<a href="http://opensuse.org/" title="opensuse.org">openSUSE</a opensuse.org> is a free community project, SUSE Linux has a 100% FOSS distribution (and the non-FOSS nitty gritty if you want to).

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I'm not bashing Debian nor Ubuntu by any means. Both are excellent distributions, one for the server, the other for the desktop.

That's a common misconception. Debian is excellent for desktops too. (Hullo? From where do you think the strengths of Ubuntu on the desktop derive?) With a Debian desktop you get KDE, GNOME, and ~1.5GB of other software (GIMP, OOo, etc) installed and ready to use -- and only the first cdrom of the set is required.

Debian is not as hard to install, maintain, or use as some (who probably have never tried it!) would have us think.

But most of that Ubuntu thing is hype and marketing.

I agree with that.

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Well, let me tell you why Ubuntu is more popular. I started using Suse years ago (6.x), and have always been impressed with the level of sophistication and the eye candy. However, there are always nagging issues with SuSE, whilst Ubuntu makes many tasks trivial, and (almost) EVERYTHING JUST WORKS.
I cannot get bluetooth to work 100% in SuSE, in Ubuntu it's a breeze. Whenever I come across a piece of hardware that SuSE can't configure, after digging for several days, I go off running to Ubuntu or Mepis. The thing with SuSE: there's always something that drives you up the walls. If I want to hack things, I go to Gentoo thank you very much. I expect SuSE to just work. It never has, so far.

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I use both Suse and Ubuntu. Suse seems to have some problems with doing things like patches their own way. Also Suse is really slow to start up and use (YAST2 is so sluggish..). But with good hardware detection including suspend, it's a nice laptop distro for me.

I use Ubuntu on my desktop machines. It's fast and simple, the debian heritage rules. Ubuntu also has lots of newbie-friendly docs and it's future seems more secure than Suse's at the moment.

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1st - Re: the missing parts mentioned in the article... SuSE 9.x, 10.x still requires a geek level of knowledge to get up and going to the ability that the article suggests. New users are not adept at performing the tasks needed to install the missing parts. Ubuntu Automatix is much better than this, but still to find it and get it installed requires some "geeky-ability" as it is not graphical from the get go!

2nd - EASY BACKUP SOFTWARE IS NOT A Graphical MENU CHOICE ON DEFAULT INSTALL... SuSE, Ubuntu, and others, don't have some easy graphical tools for Backups, partical backups, and selective backups of data from certain LINUX applications!

For example: I wanted to tell a friend today how to back up his Evolution data, so I look for the latest online and I get to page/support info with alot of command line referances. This friend has never seen a command line ever... and to give someone instructions like this who has only lived in a graphical world... is insane! Does anyone know if Ubuntu or SuSE has the ability to add a graphical backup button that will allow for selective backups? I know there is no way inside Evolution to backup the data to a file that could be imported... unless I missed something (why do Linux developers skip this important step that everyday users need to exist)?

Even instructions for backing up the HOME directory, some Linux help pates are saying, that this home backup will leave the Evolution data and configurations NOT fully backed up! Those that have used this and tried to restore it find that Evolution is broken when they attempt to restore?

So - how do we backup SuSE 9.3, 10.x data for Evolution data (Evolution data is used to merge with OpenOffice - for the office use to send mail, print labels, etc) where is is not a shock for this user?

3rd - The friend has a problem with a broken Kaffine (I set it up so that it was running but it is now broken and I have to visit to see what is going on). The comment from this friend was, If this breaks who do I call? It is a Dell dual boot and I said well you still have Windows installed and can use it too (OpenOffice is on this XP side of the install too but it is configured never to see the internet)!

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Graphical Backup.... Insert the install disk, go to YAST, Software Management, and do a search for KDAR. I have this running on my Gnome Suse install and it works well. It is a graphical front end to DAR complete with incremental backups, full system, or selected directory. It has a wizard to step through the process and the documentation is adequate to even a windows user's needs.....

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Thanks. Why isn't KDAR or other backup a default install? System tools area should have this choice and ability to do graphical delete option/choices for setup of a method of delete of tmp files as well.

The best backup I have ever seen is one that does bit level over the network backups. Two systems in two buildings over old RS-232 based wireless (38k) where the two mirrored computers would synch via this bit level backup (as files changed in one they changed in the other), all wireless so that lightning and fire risk most likely would not have a problem with either. Hey at bit level this backup technique over slow RS232 was fine (wireless or modem). This same software would allow for instant plug into network synch of laptops with desktop or server data files as well.

Very cool.

Some day someone will have all these features as part of a default install, that will no blow up with kernel or other updates, and is supported from a fine company like Novell.

Note: Novell's top software choice from users in their latest attempt to figure out what Windows programs that folks want to run on LINUX had Quickbooks at the top! Novell could do their own version, saddle up to the CPA (accountants) to have them be their VARs (most do some level of computer software support these days anyway).... and sell support and important Payroll TAX update subscriptions as a revenue model for it (give away the accounting software YET still charge for updates, payroll tax updates, other tax updates that are jurisdiction dictated by the need causeed by tax laws and reporting responsibilties that change over time. EVERY SINGLE ONE of the accountants that I deal with HATE INTUIT because INTUIT is getting into their payroll service and tax businesses - they all are looking for an option with the ease of use that beats INTUIT...but as one said "there is nothing as easy as Quickbooks for his customers to use"... in fact he has a copy, gets the data files from his customers, plugs them in for the tax filings he needs to do. I wonder if Intuit cares that they have made every accountant in the US mad at them, or if they care... is Novell entered this business with a distro that would do accounting with support with ease of use, like Quickbooks AND they did it in partnership with the CPA's of the world... they would have a long long term business model that would be meat and potatos for a long time... as long as they did not push the growth idea and looked at it as just a service they would survive nicely (meaning that once they get greedy and increase fees or try to milk a cow for more than their share... they would then lose the valuable respect of their customers and the accountant partners who would be then embarassed by Novell's greedy actions.

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You should state your experience level when you typed this. Apparently you haven't used Suse beyond just looking at the desktop. In Suse 10, Yast has the easiest backup software that does exactly what you are requesting. And all Linux distros will require some form of learning. Memorizing the steps to get to Explorer like a trained monkey obviously won't work in Linux, but you are welcome to memorize the steps to get to FireFox or any other software if you want. If that makes you a geek, then I guess the ability to actually think makes you a geek these days.

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Most people are quite happy being ignorant in their computer use. The man is making valid point in saying Linux, even the most user-friendly distributions, require more computerskills than many people have and -most importantly -are willing to learn.

Offcourse most things are easily done using Linux, once you know how to. The point is, for Linux truly to be a success more functionality should be easily done, even if you are merely a 'trained monkey'. It is easy to suggest people should smarten up and stop wining, but they really won't. I believe Linux developers and users alike should face up to this fact to stand any chance in the 'battle' against other operating systems. Also, I believe they have done this for the most part and hopefully KDE4 and the next Gnome release will once again be a little more 'monkey-friendly'<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;).

regards,
sebastiaan mathot

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Thank-you! I have never read a better defense to this typical comment when posed with this question (it is catch 22 over and over and over). When is the mentality of LINUX going to change? It is easy to slam Windows... but, as a tool, it is indeed easier for these new folks to handle, and this is the reason why DELL and other companies are not supporting HOME users and LINUX installs on systems.

Hey - Like I commented below in another response to a commnet... I cut a alot of teeth back in the early 1990s as an Alpha/early beta tester of a version of UNIX from Microport systems (with a DOS merge funtion on 486 class system, too slow so went to other options for terminal dos app execution). My level of understanding of how things work is really not that far below par, I can find answers if I don't know how to fix something (however, It drives me nuts because sometimes find that I have waste time on something that should be scripted and easier than it is in a "production level distro").

And as well, I hate to see is that there is a "frat club" mentality with some in the LINUX world that seems to think that users need to 1st go thru "a hell week with no end in sight (very stressful I have discovered) in order to become a member of the happy LINUX using club.

Users will not do this! No hell week. Nope, they will run back to Windows at all cost. At corporations where they have techs on duty to fix things, not a problem. But, at home or in a small business... As the parent has said, and again it was indeed said so well. It has gotta be easier then it is.

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What is needed, and what I wish I had the time and captial to start, is an affiliation of consultants that could use VNC to support these kinds of customers. I think if a marginal fee were setup to allow noob's to get support from a true "Geeks on call" company that covered all major distibutions, this would go a long way to helping those who are not taking advantage/cannot afford the support the major player's provide. Rates could be hourly, monthly, or annually depending on the hours guarenteed/worked etc... Just a thought....

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...on any OS. Some brief examples:

- My brother-in-law upgraded his motherboard. He could not get the onboard sound system to work. He brought the system to my house and messed with it for more than 4 hours using the CD that came with the motherboard, using the manufacturer's website, using Google searches, etc. He went home with his sound still not working despite all was could do. Knoppix booted and used the sound right away so we knew it was not a hardware problem.

- My father uses Windows XP. He loved the automatic thumbnails in Windows Explorer for browsing is photos. He installed a few software packages that deal with graphics. One of them disabled the thumbnails. We un-installed all the packages. Thumbnails still disabled and we have found no answer to re-enabling them. So, he now lives without a feature he liked.

- Ask a normal user to configure the firewall in Windows XP SP2. They don't know the first thing to choose and the first time it won't let them use a program they like, they disable it anyway.

- One person writes a document in Word and sends it to a friend. The friend can't open it in their Word program because their's is older than the first person's version. They don't understand how to have the first person save the file in the older version format so they can share the document electronically. They just print documents to share them.

Shall I go on?

Why do users have this difficulty? Because they don't want to understand and the GUI, no matter how good, doesn't make up for a lack of knowledge.

It's incorrect causality. Users of Windows blame themselves, don't complain much and just live with it when something doesn't work like they expect. When they have problems under Linux they blame the Linux GUI because it is different, not because it is not good enough.

My eight year old runs his Linux KDE desktop and applications just fine, thank you very much. His report on tropical flying squirrels, typed and formated by him with some help me, came out of OpenOffice.org in wonderful shape. I don't think he has had any more or less difficulty there as he would using Windows.

Linux will not get ahead by expecting users to stay dumb. Windows users stay dumb too despite it's supposedly easier GUI.

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What you are saying is true, to a certain extent. Indeed people run into difficulties using Microsoft products and they are more likely to attribute these to their own ignorance then they are using a Linux environment.

But it is, as is everything in life, a matter of degrees. I feel Windows is in a real way more user friendly than is Linux. This is not to say it is perfect -far from it -nor to say Linux is bad. For certain applications one could even argue Linux is superior to Windows -but not in being a desktop system for the average user.

Maybe you feel you have to defend Linux, but there is no need. Most likely all readers of this article would like to see Linux and open source in general dominate the software market. I know I would. But denying any defects in Linux by presenting some counterexamples, which can obviously always be found, is denying oneself the posibility to improve on Linux. Again, I truly like linux, but to make it a more appealing product such improvements are needed.

Sebastiaan Mathot

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"Indeed people run into difficulties using Microsoft products and they are more likely to attribute these to their own ignorance then they are using a Linux environment."

It's called blame the user / customer. MS has been quite successful at it. If something doesn't work it's never the fault of our fearless leader Chairman Bill or his gifts of perfections manifested as software.

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I couldn't disagree more strongly. My wife and 2 and a half year old use Linux everyday. Don't say "most" because I think you are dead wrong. I have more faith in society than that.

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I don't mean to offend anybody by saying most people are 'happy being ignorant in their computer use'. Also, I don't think these people are ignorant in a general sense: they just have different interests.

When you say you have 'more faith in society than that' I reply by saying that the fact most people are not as interested in computers as we (the readers of newsforge.com) are is hardly an indication of a faulty society.

And I really do believe the use of the word 'most' is legitimate in this context. The mistake many people make is assuming their environment (friends, colleagues, family etc) is representative of the general level of computer-literacy. Beware of this!

Sebastiaan Mathot

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I still stand by my comments. It's all a mental game. If someone doesn't know how to do something in XP that everyone else does, then they know they are an "idiot" and learn it. If they can't do the same thing in Linux, nobody else can either because they haven't even tried Linux, then it's public acceptance of "it's too hard because nobody knows how to do it". Everything new is initially "hard". Hell, remote controls for TVs were "hard" in the beginning. Now everyone uses them. If you still think it's difficult today you go ahead and learn it anyway because your 2 year old kid can do it.

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Here's an experiment: Take two "trained monkey" types, who have no prior computer experience at all, and start one of them out using windows, and the other one out using linux. See which one does better.

My guess is they will come out nearly the same. The point is, most things are easily done using windows, once you know how to. Most things are also easily done using linux, once you know how to. The difference is that the world at large has learned how to do things in windows, and retraining monkeys is much much harder than training new monkeys.

So, if all things were fair (which of course they are not), Linux shouldn't have to become easier to use (assuming that I am right about the relative difficulty to a truly new user). In that regard, I would say that you are wrong. However, things are not fair. There is a massive base of windows using trained monkeys, who have to be retrained, and furthermore, have to like being retrained, in order to see a massive conversion to using Linux from Windows. In that regard, I say you are right.

In short, the usability threshold for user-friendliness is quite a bit lower than the conversion threshold for user-friendliness. People would be perfectly happy using Linux (or any other major OS today) as it is, but they would not be happy switching from any major OS to any other major OS.

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I must admit you make a convincing case. You might even be right. Maybe Linux is indeed as userfriendly as Windows, or Mac OS for that matter, from the point of view of a completely unbiased user. Maybe not. Although I tend to think the latter is true, I myself am, admittedly, largely a microsoft 'monkey'. The point is: there is no such thing as a totally unbiased user.

Therefore I strongly oppose the opinion of those who believe that the fact many people hesitate to switch to Linux is due to their ignorance and unwillingness to learn and not due to shortcomings in the linux environment. Even assuming all you say is true this is a very unproductive, but popular line of thought. It is nearly impossible to change people as a group -in any case, the linux community does not have the means to do so. If people are Microsoft monkeys and totally unwilling to be retrained, the linux community will have to deal with this fact.

In other words: it is no use to complain about people's ignorance. Time is better spent trying to improve on a Linux desktop environment!

Sebastiaan Mathot

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1st. The "missing parts" do not require geek level knowledge. You could easily BUY the <a href="http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=11804" title="linspire.com">Linspire xine player</a linspire.com> that not only works great but also carries a legal license. The geek stuff is only necessary to circumvent legal licensing requirements.

2nd. Good easy GUI backup software would be nice. However, there are such solutions that are available from third parties, just like Windows. But, if all you want is to backup a home directory, try dragging the directory into K3B and burn the home directory to a CD. That's pretty easy! Evolution issues are probably due to data being stored in the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/~/.evolution but, account information is stored in GConf, the Gnome registry. GConf is located in the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/~/.gnome2 directory. If you restore only your Evolution data and not the account data, there are situations where you may have trouble. This is no different than restoring a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.pst in Outlook without restoring the Outlook profile, which is stored in the registry.

3rd. Kaffeine likely broke because you used the packman files to make it play CSSed DVD's and some of the files were replaced by an update. Reinstall the "third party" Kaffeine/Xine files.

As for who he should call? He should call you! You are the one that installed it. In the case of Windows, he should call Dell because they are the one who installed it. If he wants Dell support for Linux, then he should get a <a href="http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/precn_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd" title="dell.com">Dell system with Linux pre-installed</a dell.com> by Dell and full supported by Dell. Or he can BUY SuSE Linux from Novell, which comes with support.

You can't really expect commercial support without paying for either support or the OS. If you only want Linux support without paying for the OS, then it's time to hire a consultant.

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Problem 3: It depends on what/how it broke. The only problem I had was when I downloaded the YOU updates for SUSE and it updated the Kernel. In doing so, it bumped my ndiswrapper install for my belkin USB NIC I was using to access the internet.

Thankfully, I kept all of the install instructions I got online and simply reinstalled it..

As to "who does he call?" there are number of online resources he can used to get these questions answered by fellow users.

Sure the command line is scary to a lot of new users. It's even hard for those familiar with Windows and DOS, but there are some resources online that are very well written step-by-steps for common issues. The Noob to Geek gap is closing every year. I moved to Gnome as a result of that kernel problem and found that i was more solid and easier to use for me. (no flames, this is just my preference...)

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Yep - The button went RED, clicked on the Red Button, went in as root, and the update process begain and OF COURSE he updated! And most likely he did move to a new kernel! We have all seen this popup as SuSE users before! But, to a new user what does it mean (it is pretty cryptic to understand, when you don't have a clue to begin with) So - thus the problem? Linux developers tend to misunderstand the lenghts they need to go to in order to hand hold their lowest common denominator user.

One of the advantages of SuSE 9.3 at the time was the Novell company and the update support. However, this shows, that with Novell SuSE as a desktop (with Novell fully behind it), that even with these updates, it seems that one can get confused very easily and thus can get into trouble (if one is "only a novice/average non-geek user")!

I can hammer around and fix almost anything (note: I alpha/beta tested a version of UNIX from Microport systems back int he early 1990s that had a DOS application ability... so. But, in order to really look at how well LINUX is doing on the desktop one has to be looking at it from behind the eyes of the new user moving from Windows to see what the issues of the migration really are!

I have used this friend as a tester (albiet with the dual boot bail out, and with two hard drives one with Windows and the other with LINUX that are accessed from the DELL bios drive boot selector, so that by just pulling the LINUX had drive out he is running on a pure DELL install so that their support does not freak out).

Lots of folks have been saying that once you install LINUX and everything is running that you can just walk away. However, we now see that this is not true... and by ignoring or slamming those who say different then the LINUX desktop will not grow into mainstream use. The devil is always in the details.

I have used this friend as a willing platform tester, before I got into a mess by installing LINUX (1st choice would be SuSE, but thinking about Ubuntu) for others who I know who are of the same user level. It would seem that if someone elected a new kernel update that a report on all versions of the applications would be given to allow one to consider what it would break before hand.

Hmmm, does the Ubuntu updater also do this? The buzz is that it handles the update problems much better than anything else! Novell Suse bought the Ximain Red Carpet and renamed it... is this only available as an update tool for enterprise users (vs the SuSE 9.3 and 10.x users)? Would Red Carpet work as well to fix apps if an update to a kernel were requested by a beginner user such as this?

What is the comparison between the old Ximain Red Carpet updater and the Ubuntu and Edubuntu Updater... will they both handle kernel updates gracefully?

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I understand what you are saying but, I still must argue. You took a distribution and replaced some of its files with non-distro files in order to play back DVD's. The files share the same name so when the update runs it overwrites those files.

This is almost exactly the type of thing that happens on Windows with files like MSVCRT40.DLL or VBRUN600.DLL ALL THE FRICKING TIME! Some application overwrites the file with an older/different version and all sorts of applications puke! Some crap application requires a "specially modified" version of MSVCRT40.DLL, Windows updates to the latest official Microsoft version and the application dumps.

It is a problem, I agree. It could be improved upon, I agree. But, it is not a problem that is unique to Linux or SuSE. Had you installed the modified Xine packages in a different location or using a different file name, the problem would not have occurred. Additionally, if you had not replaced SuSE files with non-SuSE files, there would not have been any breakage.

The odd thing is that Microsoft is excused of its problems, such as this. Everyone knows it is a problem and simply accepts it and sets to working around the problem. But, when any other OS hickups, it is completely unacceptable! I see the same thing in the hardware world. Some Cisco kit fails and it's perfectly OK but, if it's 3Com or Juniper or Nortel then it's a totally unacceptable failure and people start talking about ripping everything out and replacing it with Cisco.

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Agreed on just about every point. The only thing is that 99.9% of the windows installations (programs being loaded, not the OS) will see the differeing/newer dependacy that is loaded and prompt the user, defaulted to "YES" keep the newer/higher version support file. This is not to say that all installations do this and they do get trashed from time to time.

Suse's YAST seems to do a pretty good job with dependancies, but should allow for this resolution with Y.O.U. updates as well. It complains during normal softare updates through YAST. I guess, they don't know how to handle a non-suse file. Understandable.

Additionally, I think it's worth noting that the YOU updates are security updates. They SHOULD force the use of the bundled dependancies if they are going to "ensure" that the patch is to really fix the problems. Can't validate what you don't know about or haven't tested.

This was very true of the whole MS SP2 update where a large number of major commercial programs TO INCLUDE MS Products all broke installing that major service pack... They got the pass.... Linux is held to the higher standard.... go figure...

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Novell bought Ximian, then SuSE because they felt that they needed control of the "STACK". This is why I bet on them to begin with. Are we now finding out that they are still missing parts to be a full contender to Microsoft? Yes, I think we are! I think that even they understand that they have to go that one step further. My only question is... what is the hold up? Just do it.

Now regarding your comment (have you ever installed a retail store bought version of SuSE 9.3 Linux)?

1st did not load DVD player - it is not legal here to do so. I have never committed a felony before and don't intend to start. Just followed directions when running the 1st run of the application that Novell installed in the system by Default. So - who is to blame? Me or Novell. I am sorry but in this case it is Novell.

Everything was legal and store bought a full Retail bought disto from CompUSA 9.3 SuSE in a box with 2 years of Novell updates (as advertised). I always only use "retail media installs as any liability issues then I have a record of as the install DVD or the install CDs from the orignal provider with their label, the box and the instruction book is a step above "just getting a download"... Really can you really trust all downloads. If a lawyer asks me some day in court. I will give them the facts on computer security. SO - insurance is using a CD from SuSE (and/or the install CDS that Ubuntu is sending out for free with their ShipIt option).

So, back to this install. And this average user test I was conduting. Thinking it was Novell, it was SuSE, that Novell would have it all together for the price that was charged and that the user would be getting a 21st Century usable operating system (supported with needed updates for 2 years). Hmmm, have we discovered they have forgotten about the 9.3 users at this point?

Have we instead discovered that Novell was selling something that was half a product (why they have not licensed the proper multi-media parts for this retail box is beyond my understanding)? They could and should be doing a better job...

Hey. they are NOVELL... and they are competing with Microsoft... they gotta do a better job for the price they are charging for these retail boxed products... or else they will sink. WHERE IS THE ADDED VALUE for the price? Here is a logical idea: Novell, they gotta deliver a better value than both Microsoft at the high end, and Ubuntu at the cheaper end! Simple. Do the math. Putting out updates that break what they suggested to do when the OS was originally installed is not professional (funny because the product name was SuSE LINUX 9.3 professional)!

With this version, afer you finished the install, and then when you clicked on the multimedia player the first time it ran that foot ball thing, Novell SuSE told you that everything needed for a full multi-media experience was not installed (and they have their reasons)... and that you had to go out and get the parts AND THEY EVEN SUGGESTED WHERE TO GET THEM IF I REMEMBERED CORRECTLY... NOVELL suggested that you load 3rd party software in their own 1st run of the application they loaded in the SuSE 9.3 install by DEFAULT (no mention that they would later be broken by Novell in the update process).

It is a good thing that I only installed one small business to get a feel for the issues. What again is the SuSE value? It is no wonder that folks are flocking to Ubuntu.

If the Executives at Novell are not clued into this as the foundation reason to why they are not "selling more units" and why "CompUSA no longer has their distro on the shelves"... then they are really not too knowlegable of what is going on in the trenches (above it all, are they?)!

I applaud the effort to search for the apps that folks would like to have running on LINUX. I think that Novell is a fine and superior choice for a distro... I am just pissed off that with this experiment that I have to now go out and fix something (for free) that I expected to have to visit again for 2 years (barring a hardware failure of course, but inlikely due to the system only being turned on maybe 2 hours per week)!

I like Novell, and I think that they can do better!

1st, they need to add FULL multi-media features to their retail boxed product, and pay the license fees if they feel they need to. Why? Because the market wants it and nothing less.

2nd, they gotta put better than YAST Red Carpet Updater back into the retail product and pull it from the "exclusive enterprise version only use"!

3rd, they gotta stand behind their product for the advertised term of use that the install is supported for. Suse 9.3 store bought retail users should not have to upgrade 9.3 installs to 10.x+ until after two years. In that period of time... they should try to keep it all together and not have stuff in their updates that breaks other stuff.

Simple.

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Do a search here in the News Vac for Banshee. Novell has placed source code that allows them to play mp3 content while bypassing the legal issues. Sure, it's not Amarok, and it is likely to be seen in 10.1, but as to the DVD encryption. How much MORE are you willing to pay to have it included. If that is the problem, you will see that Turbolinux is the only Distro that claims this title of functionality.

HALF a product? I guess HALF of the value of SUSE is simply DVD and MP3 palyback. That is a pretty weighty point of view. Hey everyone!! Stop what you are programming, we only need to focus on 1: Flawless security updates that don't break multimedia, and 2: Circumventing DVD and MP3 patents and encpryption.

The point is that you are quibling about a VERY SMALL issue that is easy to correct. So they could work around the updates. I Doubt highly that Ubuntu is shipping with this defualt and if they are, they are breaking the patent law.

If they are allowing non-destructive(to multimedia) updates, then power to them!! I just don't know too many businesses that are obsessed about getting DVD and MP3 playback. It's not that big of a deal to rerun the rpms to fix the problem.

Oh and YES I do by the bosed copies. And I do it KNOWING that this issue exists. They state it plainly on their websites and it's all over the web. This is a KNOWN Linux issue purely due to patents, not technology

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So, let's see thing the other way round... Today, as a long term Linux user since back in '97 I was feeling an interest in trying out the Windows XP Mediacenter sp2 thingy I effectively had had to buy with my new Inspiron 630m.

Step 1: Installing Debian unstable via debootstrap with a Windows installed.
Hm, put in cd. boot, see a GUI appear after maybe one minute and have a fully working system with Wireless LAN and everything in place and operable in order for me to find the site at linux laptops where there were described the quirks of my brand new piece of hardware. I could listen to music mounted from my fileserver in the LAN while repartitioning the harddrive and installing the OS in an xterm. This actually took some annoyingly long time because some 100MBs (I need a full flavoured install with GNOME, OO.org, Eclipse and a JDK and Apache/MySQL and so so) had to be pulled through the DSL line. Fair enough to say I had to finally reboot once into the actual system after compiling my own kernel which I had configured after the available user submitted documentation. GDM was awaiting my login at the WXGA resolution the screen was designed for and after login everything was working fine from burning a DVD backup while watching a movie from the network share and browsing the web, im-chatting with girlfriend and translating some text from bulgarian into english with a freely available dictionary.

Step 2: Installing Windows XP Mediacenter anew on a partition I now had left free.
After putting in the CD some time went by and a text mode screen appeared asking me about if to install the system on drive C:\ which I had not seen before for years. I choose some NTFSformated thing because it could not work with the XFS-formated Filesystem I had provided. Telling me that data was being copied to the hard drive I had to wait for maybe 20 minutes until I was allowed to reboot with my grub boot manager having been made inactive. Then a orange-and-red-blinking sing appeared telling me thatI had to wait for half an hour without pressing a key for "applications" to be installed. I had not have had any choice before and I didn't find any usefull applications installed afterwards, such as an image manipulation progamm, an IDE, a working TeX environment and so on. But I was patient and after having spent a boring hour the screen changed to some strangely skewed 1024x768 projected on 1280x800 resolution. One reboot later I was able to install some device drivers from the CD provided by the manufacturer and finally after another reboot and another reboot and another reboot I had the Sound and Graphics and Wireless up and working. Which meant that the System update was being launched and after another two reboots and waiting for a long time for things I was not told about what ist was to be downloaded the naked system was ready to be used. But it was lacking basic stuff like an ssh client, a pdf reader, a jre, input methods for non-latin character sets and so on, which I really had taken for granted that they should be present in a modern operating syste,. So I had to download another 100 MB of stuff with going to the homepage of each application and hitting a download button and being told that my download from sf.net had been blocked for security reasons and that I should be installing an antivirus program and that my security level was low. I was really confused by this because in the many years I had used Solaris and Linux machines I had never had needed to install any of this software. But anyway, finally I had installed all the stuff I realized that I would have to install another ton of software like services for unix and cygwin and an X server in order to be able to start to work with the remote machines in really basic ways like mounting NFS-Shares and exporting displays from the working horses. This made me really go sigh and need for a drink. But I undertook the effort and after a lot of handwork I finally had a system that was using twice the amount of space but being much less complete and usefull than the easy to install Debian sid I was used to.

So, this is not a Troll but simply a matter of aspect what is easier and what is harder...

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Somewhat similar to Roblimo's article a month or two ago but, your's was serious. Very nioely done and 100% accurate too. Although, you left out the most annoying part of using Windows, the clipboard.

It is so annoying to use Windows XP. I highlight some text in a document or web page and switch to some other application. I middle click, expecting a copy of the highlighted text to be pasted into the application, and nothing happens! I have to go back to the original, highlight the text, right click, choose Copy, go to the destination application, right click, and then choose paste. What a pain!!! I really wish Microsoft would fix the clipboard in Windows. LOL!

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Thetre is another thing, maintenance.

I have friends and relatives that need a simple box for email, documents, printing and watching DVD's. I used to install win98 and W2k for them, but they didn't last long. There were crashes, missing codecs, viruses and frequent reinstalling.

I am NOT willing to spend my time on PC maintenance, so I have started to install Linux with OpenOffice, Evolution, Firefox, and Xine.
There is Windowmaker on desktop, because it is as simple as washing machine. There are big buttons with pictures that one can't miss<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-).

Sometimes I get the call about how to do this or that in OpenOffice writer, but they used to ask me the same thing with Word.

I never let them have the file manager, because most screwups are done with user friendly file manager. Even if they can't damage the system, they can destroy their own documents.

Windows, KDE and Gnome are too powerfull for simple home user, there are too many ways to do the damage.

DG

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Many of your now LINUX using friends and others who you don't need to do anything for today... will be calling you someday (if they have small hard drives) as the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/tmp folder will be filled up. How are you going to explain the best way that they can delete these files.

Where is the magic button for this? Do you know?

As well, for LTSP installs... I wonder as well if someone could provide easy help for K12LTSP or Edubuntu users where the shared tmp file places fill up really fast... and there is no admin tool to delete them where the admin could be told to just click here or there!

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I've got my own small studio in the basement. It's a Gentoo/Linux thing. I've got SUSE 10.0 on my laptop (an IBM/Lenovo z60m). I've compiled the realtime module for my SUSE 10.0 but I really think that SUSE is to bloated with all it's bells and wisles for doing audio production stuff. I like SUSE 10.0 (but not 100% sure I'll keep it on my laptop) but for realtime audio work I'd stick to Gentoo.

regards,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/bengan

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Do I understand correctly you actually use Linux, be it Gentoo and not SuSE, for music production? What exactly do you use it for, recording audiotracks and recording midi? And is it possible to use virtual instruments (VSTi's) in a Linux environment? Is there such a thing as ASIO-2 drivers for Linux to avoid high latency when recording? And what exactly is a "realtime module"?

Sorry for all these questions<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;), but if there is a way to use Linux for my music production I would definitely give it a try.

regards,
Sebastiaan Mathot

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I use ardour for multitrack recording, a combination of rosegarden and lilypond for music notation, hydrogen for a drum machine, and audacity for quick and dirty audio editing. I'm not sure about the vst's in linux. I personally don't use them.

It's nice creating music in linux, although it does take some time learning how all the software works, and how it can interact with each other.

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There's a few Linux distros that can be used for music production, and I believe that at least one is a Live CD, so no need for installation. Search for Agnula, Demudi, and Studio to Go! (note: I haven't tried these myself, so I don't know if they're any good).

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see subject line

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There are plenty of music and audio software for Linux.

Hydrogen is an drum-machine that is pretty cool.
* <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_(software)" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_(software)</a wikipedia.org>
* <a href="http://www.hydrogen-music.org/" title="hydrogen-music.org">http://www.hydrogen-music.org/</a hydrogen-music.org>

* <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_audio_software" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_audio_software</a wikipedia.org>
* <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_audio_software" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_audio_software</a wikipedia.org>

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Today, I had a Small Business client, who I had installed a 100% Linux network for where all the workstations have LINUX. There has to be at least one computer that does not have LINUX, it has Windows 2000 Pro, because of a need to run QUICKBOOKS, and so it is not attached to the internet network at all.

Guess what? I had the client(s), the office staff who learned of this SuSE problem, well they did get mad today because they wanted, on this SuSE 9.3 professional install, to run off and print US POST OFFICE mailing labels that they can buy, US POST OFFICE postage paid for, over the internet service by the US Postal Service web site, these stamp or labels that they could buy over the internet, and the requirements on the Post Office site said they need IE or Netscape to do this. It seems that SuSE will not do this for them and the women who work in the office are screeming for their Windows back. Ouch.

I know of other clients that I have set up where they can do internet access to other web sites where the web sites have the same requirement (but they are running for other software W2000 Server to RDesktop on LINUX boxes. We don't have a Windows Server at this location that I am now writing about! I went over and took a look at this web based US POST OFFICE application that was running on that SuSE 9.3 computer. It seems that the US POST OFFICE is requiring IE or Netscape (certain version that I suspect are only for Windows - maybe I am wrong as I am going to call the Post Office tomorrow). One fills out the US Post Office web form, and after you have paid them, and to print the prepaid label (bar coded I presume) then it is supposed to pup up or just show up on the user's screen as a PDF file all opened and ready to print.

When it smells like a fish it most likely is a fish. IN this case the fish I think I smell is an ACTIVE X requirement by an extension of the US Government (or s sudo branch of it)! Ouch.

Does anyone know how to tell the US Post Office that they might have customers who use something other than a WINDOWS operating system? The solution would be to print like one would sent oneself a copy of a web article. Enter in the email address and the PDF file (label) would show up in one's inbox and could be printed from there! Lots of prior art. I am wondering if the Post Office will bite OR if I can talk to someone high enough to interest them in a change.

Any ideas?

Like I said - 3 wheels don't cut it. I would like to figure this out with an answer for them tomorrow BUT I don't even think that WINE can help with this! Will WINE allow IE to RUN Active X to launch a PDF file sent via the web session from one site to the user desktop? I don't even think that Codeweavers can do this? I don't know if they can or can't.

Is this a case of the US post office endorsing only Microsoft use to the exclusion of Apple or Linux, or other UNIX users?

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I think you need to check what is actually required. I don't run Windows but print online purchased USPS labels all the time. I am running Fedora Core 3 and FireFox to do this.

As I recall, you must have javascript enabled and popup windows enabled (for the USPS site) for the label printing to work. No Active X, no PDF.

Good luck.

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Check out Crossover Office:

<a href="http://www.codeweavers.com/" title="codeweavers.com">http://www.codeweavers.com/</a codeweavers.com>

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This works just fine with firefox and Opera on Suse 10. You just have to make sure that javascript and pop-ups are enabled.

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It is unfair that the US Post Office has minimum requirements listed that give instructions that are incomplete (basicly for Windows users only).

If this works like you all say... then, where is the US Government POST OFFICE help page for Linux, Mac, and UNIX users?

I am going to complain to them. I hope you do too! I don't post on Slashdot but if you want to do so to get others to notify the Post Office of their oversight (or undersight)... then please do!

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It's so great that I find few things to criticize.

Only thing that I wished to be improved: it takes WAY too long to customize your desktop. Yesterday I made an account for my sister and it took me almost an hour, and I already *knew* where to find all the stuff (Kde-Look, wallpaper, KDE settings,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...).

I'd like to see something like a wizard (yeah yeah I know how ya'all hate wizzards...) that let you choose the window decoration, icon set, style, wallpapers, with the possibility of getting it from the web, like with KGetWallpapers or a plugin that lets you download iconsets from the KDE-Look.org website.

E.g.:

1. Choose your Window Decoration (with preview)
2. Choose your Style (with preview)
3. Choose your Icons (option: download from web)
4. Choose your wallpaper (option: download from web, choose keywords in dialog)
5. Advanced desktop settings: transparency (menus, taskbar), shadows, enable 3D-desktop (XGL)
6. Profit! (from time saved)

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All these things can be easily done. New users inherit whatever settings are in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/skel. Make your desktop what you want everyone to have, them move it over to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc/skel. All new users will have the same settings. Pretty simple, eh?

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Except if you want each user to have a completely personalized desktop...

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Interested in using NTFS-FUSE to write to WINDOWS 2000/XP partitions (NTFS formatted).



Or alternatively, using Captive to write to WINDOWS 2000/XP partitions (NTFS formatted).



Then click here:



<a href="http://linux.coconia.net/" title="coconia.net">http://linux.coconia.net/</a coconia.net>



These particular articles use SuSE 10.0, but may be useful for other distributions.



There is also code for JAVASCRIPT MOVIES (and a few to watch).



Also has a section on how to REMIX YOUR 14 Debian CDs as 2 DVDs.

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I hope you have reported all your problems
via Novell bugzilla. See <a href="http://www.opensuse.org/" title="opensuse.org">http://www.opensuse.org/</a opensuse.org>
how to do that.

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