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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

By Bruce Byfield on September 04, 2008 (9:00:00 PM)

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If the rocky reception of KDE 4 has done anything, it has forced the KDE project to realize it needs to listen to users more closely. One of the first results of this realization is the new Community Working Group (CWG). Announced at Akademy, the recently concluded annual KDE conference, the CWG was described as designed "to act as a central point of contact by being available to communicate user needs and concerns to developers, and developer intentions and plans to users." The CWG is still being organized; to find out more about its plans, we contacted Anne Wilson and Juan Carlos Torres, two of the group's five initial members.

Wilson is best-known for answering questions about KDE on a variety of forums. She says that KDE has realized the need to improve communication with users for some time. "Everyone, users and developers alike, had known and admitted that the current system of documentation was not good enough. That is not to belittle current documentation, but it is necessarily written before the general public have used the application and fed back their problems and worries.

"The KDE 4 situation this spring was, in a sense, the last straw. We had been aware for a long time that there was a lack of user-centric resources, but since KDE 3 had been around for so long there were always people who could pick up the issues and help out. KDE 4 opened up a whole new ball-game.

"When I first saw KDE 4, I felt completely lost, and realized that this was gong to be a frightening experience for many people. At the same time, some of the messages on mailing lists were not just critical, but downright rude and callous."

Wilson says "the information users had got, prior to seeing KDE 4.0, was from media reviews of new features, and comments from eager early adopters, where enthusiasm for what was to come gave an over-optimistic impression of what would be delivered."

However, the situation was no better on the developers' side. "The developers were shocked," Wilson says. "They had believed that it had been made clear that 4.0 was a development release, but the message had not got through to the users."

"This [situation]," she says, "exposed something else that we had been gradually realizing for some time: there was an almost total lack of communication between developers and users." The CWG is intended "to help bridge the gap."

Plans for the CWG

The CWG is so new that it does not have a home page yet, but development has already started on a Userbase wiki similar to KDE's existing Techbase site for developers. Just as the KDE Techbase provides a starting point for developers who want to contribute to the project, so the Userbase will provide an entry point for those who plan to use KDE as their desktop environment.

"Basically, we're trying to gather up and collate KDE user resources, to really give our users a home in the KDE ecosystem," says Torres, who is a fixture on the #kde channel. "Hopefully, this will help spark collaboration in different areas, such as documentation, localization, advocacy, and marketing."

According to Wilson, the intent is not to duplicate the detailed information found in existing technical tutorials and articles, but to develop material to answer recurring concerns from lists and forums. "At the same time," she says, "we hope to be able to assist the marketing people by ensuring that essential information reaches user lists, to avoid the sort of misunderstandings we have seen."

The CWG also hopes to provide services for developers. "The KDE 4 project has brought in many new developers," she says, "but also caused burnout in some old, established, highly valued developers. There is also, inevitably in a community of this size and diversity, the rare occasion when communication totally breaks down, and mediation may be needed. The CWG is available to help in any such situation, if requested by the parties involved."

Exactly how the CWG will operate, Wilson says, "is deliberately loosely defined. We will be proactive where we see something that users have problems with, but for many things we will simply be waiting and watching for requests for help. We aim to pick up the problems, worries, and fears of users, and provide some easy way for the most common ones to be resolved. The whole point is to make it easier for users to find information without adding to the burden on developers. Developers don't need the hassle of the same questions over and over."

Perhaps the biggest role of the CWG, Torres suggests, will be to help to manage KDE's growth. "KDE is getting bigger than ever and is reaching out to more and more people as it explores new areas, such as mobile Internet devices. And, of course, the community will get bigger and more diverse. It is the CWG's hope that it can help KDE through these times by making sure that no one in the community gets left behind."

Wilson expect that the CWG will take some time to become an accepted part of the KDE community, since none of its activities will be "anything earth-shattering." But, over time, she hopes the new group will come to benefit everyone.

"Hopefully, developers will come to view us as a useful resource," she says. "Users will probably be totally unaware of us, but find the work we do beneficial."

Torres is equally low-key about the future of the group. "I don't have a crystal ball to predict the future of the CWG, if it will become an accepted part of KDE. When that will happen is of lesser consequence. The KDE Community Working Group will keep on doing what it's meant to do: taking care of the community."

Bruce Byfield is a computer journalist who writes regularly for Linux.com.

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too little too late

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 207.14.167.161] on September 05, 2008 01:48 AM
I've filed a couple KDE3.5 usability bugs, but I won't file any more because they just get rejected. Last one was for KGet, response was: we're busy with KDE4 so this probably won't get addressed. KDE developers just don't care--now the feeling is mutual.

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 81.76.5.153] on September 05, 2008 02:38 AM
Yeah theres a amarok daap bug that cuts the last bit of the track and its been around for some time but on the bug reports they just say wait for amarok 2 as kde 4 is more important. Maybe someone should take up the kde 3.5 desktop and keep working on it as a KDE legacy desktop LKDE?

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 58.69.50.122] on September 05, 2008 03:15 AM
Hey, move on! Leave KDE 3!

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Re: KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 74.60.28.190] on September 05, 2008 10:34 AM
What are you smoking? I will say that I used KDE at first (from 2000 up to late 2006), but now I use GNOME because the the experience with KDE is that the devs just no longer care about the 3.x branch and they have basically consigned the desktop to a future of obscurity by releasing the monster that is KDE 4.x.

The 4.x branch had a lot of great ideas like Solid, but Plasma was poorly implemented and then used as the selling point the new branch. Features like mac-style menus are missing, and there is prety much no way to make the panel smaller than the default size. They should just bring back kicker or make the plasma panel have the same functionality. Secondly, everything about Plasma seems fake. It's really that bad. They took the desktop metaphor (eg, icons, panel, etc) and threw it all away.

There are bugs that are numerous, including one where trying to import a whole folder full of wallpapers into the wallpaper selection list just causes the folder's name to be selected in import box and then when you try again when you realise "whoops" and just select the one wallpaper you want BAM! it does acknowledge your selection.

Now this is comming from someone who abosolutely loved the KDE 3.x branch (3.5 rocked) but switched over when I saw the shit hit the fan with 4.x branch. Face it, 4.x probably will not be ready for the desktop until the 4.3 release at this rate. In fact they should not have released it until 2009 and maintained bug fixes in 3.5 along with a transition to QT4 which was also poorly handled.

And of course the most important thing to mention: KDE 4.x has only a few core apps which many are just shadows of their former selves. Amarok isn't ready, neither is KDevelop, KOffice, or K3B which are programs that people also will use on a day to day basis. Let's face it, with some of these programs (KOffice) estimating a stable release in 2010 it's obvious that things aren't going so well with the 4.x branch and if something isn't done soon to correct these mistakes then GNOME and XFCE are going to have a lot more users here soon and the debate over QT vs GTK will also be over if that happens.

Maybe if the KDE developers did something along the lines of just add in the functionality of the old 3.5.x branch, confine plasma to a more limited role as a layer above the desktop that displays widges (similar to adesklets but more functional), bring back kicker, and stop trying to be "revolutionary" then *MAYBE* people would not have been so resentful towards the release. But instead of a simple port to QT4, we had the "pleasure" of being force fed Plasma which in the end spoiled what would have been a great desktop.

Also I sincerely hope that KDE devs are reading this and taking this to heart because if you are going to release this on Windows too, I doubt you will get very far. However, I do want to end this on a good note and that is Okular is a great concept. I like what I'm seeing in the new KOffice but it's not exactly in a usable state right now. Amarok 2... I hope it looks more like the old Amarok when it's finally released. Also, I like the new scripting interface, that was a good move and so was solid. Integrating Strigi was nice but Nepomuk (spelling?) was horrible and I had to stop it becuase it was just stalling things up. I do see some potiential in 4.2 if you can bring back what 3.5 was to many of the users.

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Re(1): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 63.251.108.100] on September 05, 2008 10:19 PM
Wow, I could have written every bit of that myself. When I just got a new desktop at work, rather than install Kubuntu Hardy on it (no LTS) or Intrepid (no KDE 3.5.x, just 4.x), I installed Debian Testing. After being on *buntu since it came out, I'm now moving back to mainline Debian. I'm running KDE 3.5.9 in Testing while preparing to migrate over to GNOME. I don't like GNOME, really, but I hate it a lot less than I hate KDE 4.

There's just no future in KDE anymore, IMO. The devs don't care that most people don't like KDE 4 and want to stay on 3.5. They don't get (or maybe don't care) that KDE 4 is nowhere near ready for use by most users of 3.5. They're in love with 4 and its ideas (that they never ran by the user community before doing), and no longer care about or wish to support KDE 3.

KDE 4's theme has been compared to Vista. I compare KDE 4 to Vista in another way entirely. Like XP, KDE 3 was thrown under the bus in favor of a product that was basically a failure before it ever hit the shelves. The only difference is that more than a few people at Microsoft knew that Vista has serious problems, but it was shoved out the door because it was so far behind schedule and they had to ship *something* in time for the holiday season. With KDE 4, it seems like the KDE devs all believed they would be lionized by the entire FOSS world, and thus they were truly stunned when everyone who wasn't a complete fanboy said it sucked.

As of 4.1.1, it still sucks. 4.2 isn't going to be near enough. I predict it will take about 2 years from initial release before KDE 4 is really usable/useful. Contrast that to KDE 3.0, which blew 2.x away and converted me from a GNOME user to a KDE user the first time I tried it.

If the KDE devs have any sense, they will pull back and return KDE 3 to being the official current version. They're putting on all this BS about how 4 was s development release, but they're the ones who threw that alpha-quality POS at us and called it the new current version of KDE.

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Re: KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.188.225.166] on September 06, 2008 05:48 PM
Out of my cold dead hand!

KDE4 may actually be what Linux needs. I get that. But what I need is KDE3.

Don't want no plasma. Plasma is a like a Colgate Invisible shield that prevents me from interacting directly with my desktop. I keep telling myself that Konqueror hasn't been sabatoged so Dolphin can take its place, and they'll get around to fixing it eventually, but in my heart, I can't entirely banish the fear that they did a Tonya Harding on Konqueror when they took away the filter bar, but put one in Dolphin. In KDE3, Konqueror was the application that contained all of KDE in one place, and this allowed all kinds of creative possibiltes, but now, our Desktop experience is being planned out for us. You kids need to use Konqueror instead of firefox. for your web browsing. This is your web browser, this is your file manager.

I used to hate and fear KDE4, but now I'm just bored. The code is supposed to beautiful, whatever that means, but I 've spent about fifty to sixty hours with it, and I don't see any real shift in the desktop paradigm. All those widgets are just applets, except applets don't need to be locked, unlocked, moved, resized, and otherwise adjusted all the time. All those dark, fuzzy pretentious themes just annoy me now.

This is maybe my one hundred fiftieth anti-KDE4 post. I feel bad criticising someone else's hard work, which many people love. But I can't let go of it, because it confronts me daily. I'm going to be expected to let go of something that I find to be so much simpler and friendlier, and that I have been building my desktop around for years. Whenever I see that banner that says "Don't Look Back" at KDE. ORG, it reads to me like "F*** you, Keith!" And I'm pretty sure it was meant that way.

I think there needs to be a fork, not because KDE4 is worthless, but because it's worthwhile enough that it should be permitted to make its way without guys like me raining on its parade. Okay, it's still too soon to be sure. We'll know for sure when KDE3 is finally no longer maintained. But I'm getting ready. Taking another crack at the Rute User book. The mathematical stuff in the beginning with all the exponents always stopped me cold. I'm not talking about development, I'm talking about maintainance. I bet it's not as impossible as they say. Depends on how many refugees there are like me.

Anyway, I know it seems schizo, but let me take a few deep breaths and congratulate KDE on the fine work they've done. I really admire KDE4; I just wouldn't be caught dead using it. KDE3 is pretty close to perfect in a limited way, and that's the point where you have to brak the mold and piss people off. You guys did exactly what you had to do, and so am I. I repeat: OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HAND!

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Re(1): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 192.168.40.186] on September 08, 2008 12:41 AM
Exactly! "Beatiful code" means nothing really. I'd rather a DE that runs beautifully. You dont run a DE to stare at code, you run it to control your programs. KDE 3.x really is awesome and konqueror is superb. You can't get much better then KDE 3.5. Period. They are killing something good for the sake of having something new. I don't think there are many people who saw KDE and wanted it's guts ripped out, and it's a shame that such a good DE is being cast away.

As I wrote in another article about KDE 4, you shouldn't HAVE to let go of something you find useful. Many of us left Windows precisely because we wanted to stick to using things the way we wanted, to not have other organisations force feed the 'change' they think is good for us. Not all change is for the better, and the user should be free to judge for themselves.

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Re(2): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 213.47.44.9] on September 08, 2008 12:59 AM
"Beatiful code" means nothing really.

Oh, but it does.

It depends on the point view but any kind of human creation, even in engineering, is noth very sophisticated work and art.
For most people a boring building like a factory might not be of any interest, for another architect it might be a piece of finest art.

Same for software. Beautiful code is an appreciation of one software engineer for the work of another. It might not mean anything to you, it means a lot for anyone involved in this part of human creation

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Re(3): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.188.230.200] on September 08, 2008 03:54 AM
I probably seemed more disdainful than I meant to. I don't know what beautiful code is, but I'm sure that it does mean something, and I'm happy that the KDE developers have earned the respect of their uber-geek peers. KDE4 is not the enemy. The KDE developers are like heroes to me. I keep getting carried away because I feel threatened, but I don't want to diss them, and I don't want to diss their important groundbreaking project. I just want my KDE3.

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Re(3): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 192.168.40.186] on September 08, 2008 05:10 AM
Oh but it doesn't. Code is a means to an ends. Like a recipe. Cooks judge a recipe for a pudding based on the PUDDING the recipe makes, not how finely worded ther recipe is or how clever the steps are or how nicely it reads on paper. Could you imagine chefs having a bake off and judging which is the best cake based on how the recipe reads? Good cooks make food that is appealing. The way it was made is irrelevant, it is the end product that matters.

Same for software. The code is merely the means of building an executable file (or in the case of a script, it IS the executable). It is how that executable runs which determines how the product (in this case KDE) performs. It might be important to developers, but developers, like chefs, make an end product. A developer that cares more about how the code reads than the usefulness of his product is like a chef that cares more about how the instructions to preheat the over are written than how palatable the food is. Granted you cant make a good cake with an awfully written recipe, just as you cant make a stable, efficient functioning program with awfully written code, but code, like a recipe serves a functional, and not aesthetic purpose.

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Re(4): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 213.47.44.9] on September 08, 2008 07:53 AM
like a recipe serves a functional, and not aesthetic purpose

The point you are missing is that purpose and aesthetics are orthogonal. A building might primarily serve the purpose of housing something, but its design and even they way it was built can still be admired by those of the same trade.

A cook might cater to a totally different taste than another one but will still find admiration for the other's excellency, be it knowledge of spices, creativity in combining ingredients or arrangment on the plate.
If one is vegetarian and totally distains dishes including meat, cooks excelling in meat based dishes will still take pride in their creations.

Same for software. It might not even be recognizable as a separatable part of the system it is controlling, but it can still be a piece of art.
If it does what it was designed for it even serves the functional purpose, even if it does not what some people would prefer it to do.

Beautiful code matters a lot, especially since it is a nice break of the decade old routine of mass producing low quality products.
Software engineers still forced to produce below their capabilities by artificial schedules and mythical time-to-market absolutely envy those who have the option of implementing a solution based on the very principles of engineering.

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Re(2): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.188.230.200] on September 08, 2008 03:45 AM
Let's just focus on the correct problem. The problem isn't KDE4. KDE4 is awesome. The problem is not that KDE 4 was invented; it's that KDE3's future is not assured. If KDE 3 was not on the chopping block, I wouldn't have to complain about KDE4 any more. I'd love KDE 4. I'd start it up and fool around with it from time to time. I'd be congratulating the devs on their ingenuity.

There's no reason why KDE 3 and KDE 4 can't coexist, though KDE3 may need to take another name. I have to think that "maintaining" is easier than "developing".

The devs have chosen to discourage forking KDE. I've heard it's because they're afraid that a fork will divide the KDE community. I wonder how that's working out for them. ;)

blackbelt_jones


I just had an idea. How about a Facebook group called "Save KDE3!" There.


http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=23779894245

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 84.202.244.170] on September 05, 2008 04:00 PM
I guess you're free to maintain the 3.5 branch if you really want, but it seems to me that people who complain about KDE 4 is not interested or skilled enough to do that : )

KDE 4 is the faster, smarter DE. And it looks good out of the box. I use it every day, and I'm impressed. It is, however, not whiner-safe.

Erik I, waiting for Mandriva to come with KDE 4.something as default DE

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Re: KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 192.168.40.186] on September 08, 2008 12:45 AM
I thought it looked horrible, as if a functional desktop had been replaced by shiny plastic. It's a subjective matter. Some people like DE components that look glassy, others find it an eyesore. There is no correct answer, but considering that people spend most of the time looking at the apps, rather than the small parts of the DE which remain visible, visual 'candy' isn't that important anyway.

By the way, one of my favourite things about KDE 3, is the fact than when you copy/move files with konqueror, it tells you how many MB/s it's doing.

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 64.122.80.90] on September 05, 2008 07:39 PM
I'm sticking with KDE3 at work and KDE4 at home. Those who want to move to Gnome, enjoy the lack of productivity and options. I trust the KDE team to move their desktop in the right direction, even if some may feel the 4.x isn't there yet.

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Re: KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 74.60.28.190] on September 06, 2008 01:28 AM
Unfortunately, I cannot say the same. Anyways, it seems that gnome has coome a long way since their early 2.0 releases that were just horrible. Yeah, they made the same mistake KDE 4 made and now they are the ones being critised which is only fair because you can be half the people "whining" about KDE 4 remember whate I'm talking about.

In fact, the mistakes that Gnome made in the early 2000s are still felt and even perpetuated today in Linux circles, but the fact remains that these memes are no longer true and Gnome has proven to be just as viable as KDE abiet it does have it's own flaws. However, it took a long time for the Gnome devs to get a clue... almost too long in fact. Had it not have been for the fact that Red Hat and Novell chose Gnome over KDE they probably would have been in the same position. But, when users started the switch over to KDE and when development on XFCE went throught the roof the Gnome team realised they had did something wrong by hiding and removing features. The developers realised "this is a bad idea", but you see the reason why they were able to make this turn around (somewhere around the 2.12 release) is because they were listening to their users and the critism that followed.

And that is what separates the Gnome dev team from the KDE dev team in terms of spirit. Where Gnome devs are gernerally repectful even when they disagree and are willing to ingauge in a dialogue about why they make their desicisions, the KDE team has the hubris to blow off any critism as merely "hating." This has been especially true with their 4.x realease where they have mistook valid critism and turned it into a "I think your new baby is ugly" type of comment.

Other differences in KDEs design philosophy has also made it a non-choice for enterprise level and power users alike despite it's amazing level of configurability and that is their refusal to split programs into their respective packages like Gnome and XFCE have done. Let's say you want Kopete, well then you have to bring in all of KDE-PIM. You want Krita, all of KOffice. You want KPPP, all of the KDE-Network packages, and so on. This is *BAD* for people who have limited space on their hard drives or have limited bandwidth when it comes to upgrades. In fact the problem is so bad that several distrubutions have even split up the packages in their own repositories: Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch has an unoffical build called KDEmod. Their has even been talk with the latter to replace the official vanilla KDE in arch with the KDEmod packages, though this proposal has been rejected several times because it would alter the original packages.

The problems within the KDE dev team are numerous, and their unwillingness to listen to users and other "members" of the open source community who are only trying to help them will be their end if they are not careful. KDE 4.x sucks, it should have never been released with all the hype surrounding it. The developers have been rude and arrogant when faced with *VALID* critism and have consistiently made statements that they are going to stay on course and that things will get better (G. W. Bush II must be their hero).

So as you can see, yes this mistake has been made before with Gnome, but the diferences surrounding their circumstances are vast. The KDE team has shown that they simply do not care about the user and that the developing the 4.x branch is more important than continuing to improve the 3.5.x branch. In doing that they have sealed their fate and the only way they can change the course now is by admitting they were wrong and plotting a new course for the 4.x branch, bringing it more in line with the 3.5.x branch. But with every other affiliated program (KOffice, Amarok 2) also trying to reinvent the wheel and try to have their first 4.x release hearld as the Second Comming that is doubtful.

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Re(1): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 213.47.44.9] on September 07, 2008 01:10 PM
Let's say you want Kopete, well then you have to bring in all of KDE-PIM.

Kopete does not depend on any part of KDE PIM neither at build nor at runtime.

In fact no KDE application as build dependenices outside its source module or kdelibs and while some functionality might at runtime depend on something from kdebase, there is no such dependency between modules.

Acknowledging the runtime dependencies on certain part of kdebase has lead to restructuring the kdebase module so that runtime parts are clearly separate from workspace parts.

It is certainly true that some distributors have repeatedly ignored their users' requests for fine grained packaging, which is why large migration projects such as Munich/Germany decided to go with Debian so they could decide which things to install and which not.
Fortunately this seems to be a thing of the past now and even Novel/SUSE provide single application packages now, no longer forcing their users to install a lot of uwanted things.

This fortunate change of attitude towards users and often customers is probably a nice side effect of Ubuntu which being based on Debian packages with fine granularity mde it obvious to users that the problem lies at their current distributor who could no longer hide behind the myth of bad upstream dependencies.

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: PerlCoder on September 06, 2008 01:54 AM
Be a little patient. I think the KDE group realizes they made some mistakes with the KDE4 release, but I think they also are working on being more attentive to user feedback.

Just they other day, a KDE team member was running user polls on my Mandriva e-mail list, trying to get info about menu likes, dislikes, and preferences.


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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Chris Spencer on September 06, 2008 03:28 AM
Total waste of time...

People are fickle, whiny and indecisive. Sometimes they want things a certain way that serves no benefit other than to give people what they're used to. How long did it take distros to figure out that 85% of linux uses DON'T use emacs (the GUI version anyways) before they finally removed it from the default install? They kept it around forever in fear of offending the %10 of its userbase that didn't prefer firing up KWrite or gEdit.


I use KDE 4.1 in openSUSE, and it's fine. People are going to piss and moan regardless, so you might as well just try to make the DE as good as possible, and just say "hell with it... we tried"

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Re: KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.188.237.55] on September 07, 2008 09:01 AM
Really , what do people expect? I don't know about anyone else, but when I migrated to Linux, it was because I wanted software vendors to make decisions for me. I've always felt that surrendering personal choice is really the cornerstone of the Linux philosophy.

Have you ever thought to question why you seem to think "giving people what they're accustomed to" is not a legitimate value? If I want to use what I'm accusomed to, do you think that's wrong? Are you just looking out for what's best for me? But it's not just what I'm accustomed to, it's what I love, and what I've poured three years of creativity into customizing.

The more time that passes, the more confident I feel that KDE3 will be forked and maintained, because that's a law of Nature. Newton's third law, to be exact: for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. I'll do it if I have to, but I'm betting that someone competent will step up.

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Re(1): KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 192.168.40.186] on September 08, 2008 12:53 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself. I went away from Linux because I didn't want MS telling me whats best for me, what I should get accustomed to and what I should give up. It's disappointing to see this attitude in Linux. To be honest, if this is the impression I got of Linux when I was looking at moving away from Windows, I wouldn't have bothered. Being able to do things MY way IS the reason I, and many others are here. I think a lot of Linux users/devs would feel right at home at MS, where they can just decide what 'whiny', 'fickle' users should do and force their own vision upon them and market it to make the user think they want it too.

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 88.149.177.66] on September 06, 2008 01:23 PM
Well, I LOVE KDE 4.x, it has a lot of potential, and lookg great right now.
What I dislike of kde developement, and also other FOSS project (like OOo) is that developer's priorities are far from user's ones, and the former are the only ones that advance.
Usability issues fight often with dev's egos, and bugs are often seen as "features".
One single example: the "single click open", that is a) a real nightmare if you have to manage files (I know about the new selection method, but it's buggy) b) no other desktop I'm aware has this (Windows, Gnome, OSX, etc.).
The common sense would suggest have KDE use double click as default, so 99% of computer users don't become pissed off when trying KDE, or when switching from one OS to another (yes, unfortunatly Windows is something you have to live with too many times). Instead, single click is the default, and you can't convince developers to revert that insane decision.
This is just one example of what I mean about developers cutting relation with users and reality. They think that every usability issue is just something you can argue the opposite or whatever, ignoring basic principles or common sense (I suggest a reading of Alan Cooper's books, just for start).
I'm sad I'm not able to contribute code to KDE, but in any case I'm pretty sure would be mostly ignored, at least in usability field.

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all this fance new look (and critical apps are missing for real world use!

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.161.205.235] on September 07, 2008 07:02 AM
I think KDE 4.x will have promise and be usable in 2-3 years. Right not it is a total waste of time, and might take more computer resources vs less (think Green, we need to use less electricity and use smaller not larger processors). Will it be better than KDE 3.x... jury still out on that (but KISS, as in Keep it Simple Stupid, KDE 3.x might still win... and that is what we all really want... we don't want another Vista). - Question: Why isn't there a real GPL'd version of a non-profit accounting application for schools, government, and non-profits to use...? NONE. Too many Linux developers are thinking about cute desktop tricks... and are not supporting the meat and potato apps (as that might be too boring for them). In one LInux.com article they were wondering why more schools didn't use LINUX (well it is because the LINUX community is ignoring the apps that they need to teach folks to use when they leave school and walk into a business to get hired to use. There needs to be a Quickbooks for LINUX. There needs to be more verticle applications in Insurance, Banking, Real-Estate, Law, Medical fields, Engineering, etc. REAL TOOLS not fancy desktops. As really, we don't need fancy desktops to do the work we need to do in the business world... in fact... DOS did most of what we really needed to get done and one reason why business is pissed off at Microsoft is that they keep forcing change on the world AND DON'T give one ounce of benefit MORE THAN WHAT WE COULD DO BEFORE as a result of that change. KDE 4.x gives us change (but really no one has clued me in on what the benefit to a business will be)?


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Re: all this fance new look (and critical apps are missing for real world use!

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 213.47.44.9] on September 07, 2008 01:38 PM
Too many Linux developers are thinking about cute desktop tricks... and are not supporting the meat and potato apps (as that might be too boring for them)

Actually a good point, though a little off-topic for a KDE related article.

The Free Software developers among the Linux developers work their asses of to deliver all the infrastructure, e.g. kernel, system services, desktop environments, yet the proprietary developers among them seem not to care about their customers. Instead of doing something useful they either try to make a product for which the infrastructure already has implementations (e.g. Nero4Linux) or flashy gimmics that nobody needs (Google Widgets).

But as you said, while the Free Software developers work hard on the necessary cores, the proprietary developers just want to work on shiny things, if they do any work at all.

There needs to be a Quickbooks for LINUX.

Exactly!
Did you contact Inuit about it and if yes what is their excuse for not having a Linux version?

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.188.230.200] on September 07, 2008 05:38 PM
It pisses me off when people tell me to leave KDE3, but I think the developers themselves have been great. We just got another KDE3 release, and while it's "in maintanance mode" and "not a terribly exciting release in terms of features", it's all I could hope for.

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.131.187.69] on September 21, 2008 02:18 AM
I will NOT be using KDE4 until somebody reviews it and says it's feature complete and stable. Based on what I'm hearing from comments like the above, that should be somewhere around 4.2 or 4.3, if not later.

I don't use "alpha" software released as production. Period. This whole notion of KDE4 being a "development release" is ruminant evacuation on the face of it. If that's what it is, you label it as such and you don't make it the default desktop. Period. You specifically state that it is not to be used as a production environment, and should only be used by Linux power users.

Someone mentioned the lack of business applications in FOSS. This is partly correct. It partly correct because I know a lot of companies, especially in Europe, are supporting FOSS developers, and also a lot of FOSS development work is going into enterprise infrastructure which needs to be in place before enterprise apps can be developed. But it is true that Linux will NOT make it onto the desktops of corporations - and thus not onto the desktops of home users - until 1) enterprise infrastructure is in place, and 2) applications that duplicate or exceed the functionality of equivalent Windows apps used every day in corporations are in place. And yes, FOSS developers who concentrate on yet another Web 2.0 framework or desktop widgets are not contributing. Well, I don't claim everybody has to work on one thing, that's fine. But we do need more Linux apps programmers to start looking at the industries they work in, and start figuring out how they can contribute to producing FOSS apps those industries can use.

Until somebody has a decent Linux FOSS/commercial drop-in replacement for Adobe PhotoShop (and GIMP is NOT it!)(and I'm talking PhotoShop CS3), Outlook, Microsoft Exchange Server (this is the closest to being solved), Adobe Premiere, ACT!, and QuickBooks, corporations are NOT going to replace Windows on the desktop. Period.

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KDE Community Working Group takes care of the community

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.131.187.69] on September 21, 2008 02:28 AM
By the way, Innuit's (and Adobe's and the other companies) excuse for not developing Linux versions is simple - Linux has three percent of the market. This is why FOSS developers need to match or exceed Innuit's (and Adobe's and the other companies) products in order to allow Linux to have apps that match the commercial apps on Windows. Then and only then will Linux get on corporate desktops.

Linux CANNOT go the way Windows went. Windows got on desktops because Microsoft started when UNIX cost $20,000. Windows was cheaper, and it got on the desktops, then starting migrated on to the servers because the desktops had this proprietary OS on them that needed a proprietary server backing them up. For FOSS to undo that, it needs to take over the server market - which it is doing well at - and THEN take over the desktop by developing desktop apps that are as good or better than Windows commercial apps but which use the standard server infrastructure that Linux supports, instead of the proprietary infrastructure Windows server support. In other words instead of trying to take over the desktop first like Windows did, Linux needs to take over the server market, then take over the desktop when corporations start realizing that running a Linux server supporting standards-based infrastructure is better than running a proprietary infrastructure. Linux is doing well at the server market, and as a certain amount of Internet-based computing starts to take hold, it should do even better. But the desktop needs to leverage Linux servers to produce desktop apps that are as good as or better than Windows apps.

There are some pretty good Exchange Server drop-in replacements, and some pretty good Outlook replacements. Most of them are commercial, such as Zarafa that just went open source. Exchange is one of the big holdouts for corporate WIndows users. Get that and Outlook off the corporate desktop and things will be much better for Linux. But we still need replacements for PhotoShop, QuickBooks, Premiere and the like.

And OpenOffice needs to find a way to run Microsoft Office macros and somebody needs to do a Visual Basic for Applications port to Linux. Forget Mono - we need VBA! That way, all that custom VBA code and Excel macros can be ported to OpenOffice! Until that's done, Microsoft Office is not going anywhere!

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