Linux.com

First, boy am I happy I switched to Debian!! Not only did I get rid of RPM-hell for APT-paradise, but what is more important, I connected with a *community* centered disto. The reason why I decided to dump Mandrake after being a faithful supporter since Mdk7.2 and a Mandrake Silver Club Member was its increasingly corporate "feel". Instead of developing good code, they began an orgy of mergers and aquisitions with no clear goal in mind other than "bigger is better". The fact that Mandriva (what a stupid name change) could not install on one of my computers while Debian Sarge installed *perfectly* on the first try helped speed up my decision.

So now Mandriva provides us with more "corporate melodrama". You can bet that this will not stop here. Clearly - the 'suits' have taken over Mandriva and you can expect it to go down the tubes... RIP.

Another thought which comes to my mind is this: I wish more Americans realized what it means to be laid-off in a civilized country. You get unemployment benefits, your healthcare is assured, you can sue an employer for wrongful terminiation of contract and if you do not have the money to sue, the state provides you with an lawyer. There are, of course, unions too which can represent you (even if you are not part of a union). Last, but not least, your insurance companies cannot simply drop you nor can you be evicted from your home. Oh, and you do not need a lawyer to get disability or loss of income benefits: you simply fill a form (and have a medical vist).

I know about all this because even though I had a Master's Degree from a US Ivy League college, I found myself unemployed after 9/11 in Europe. It was hard, but never did I risk loosing all that which is considered a basic human right in all civilized countries.

Which brings me back to community vs. corporations. The USA is a "country for the corporations, by the corporations" and its citizens mistakenly assume that the rest of the developed world is very similar. They are wrong. Only the USA practices what is essentially a form of indirect slavery of the work force (a direct form of slavery also exists: More than 2 million Americans are in prisons, 500,000 more than in communist China, which has a population of 1.3 billion people).

So Gael is in a tough spot, no doubt. But not anything nearly as horrible as what would have happened to him in the "land of the brave and home of the free" (or whatever the slogan is).

So Gael - bonne chance et consideres-toi heureux de ne pas vivre aux paradis du capital!

[ps: do not bother with "hippie", "commie", "kibbutzim", "zealot" etc. as it only would make my point about being civilized or not]

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Nice way to turn your comment in to a rant against the US. You're right if your goal is to get by with doing as little as possible Europe is the place to be, if you want to bust your balls and make a lot of money US is for you. Apparently you belong to the former group. Compare unemployment figures and you'll see where both employers and employees want to be. BTW, Linux is a pain to use regardless which flavor it is.

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lazy Europeans (rolleyes)...

You are welcome to "bust your balls" - but what is really happening is that you are busting the balls of millions of poor americans who live in an environment in which that which is considered as basic human right in the rest of the world is called "benefits". As for making a lot of money, if you look at what is happening to the US middle class you will see that less and less Americans make money while more and more get their balls busted by an obnixous, self-worshipping and wholly immoral minority.

Unemployment figures? LOL - what were the unemployment figures in the USSR or, more pretinently, the the South before the Civil War?

If ignorance is bliss, you are in high heaven!

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The countries Americans worry about competing with are India, China, and the Pacific Rim. None are in Europe. Why, because Europeans are stupid or uneducated? Obviously not, but they have gotten fat and lazy, have forgotten how to compete on a global scale. France is the worse, taking the idea of worker's rights to a ridiculous extreme so that strikes shutting down important services usually garners a sympathetic reaction from the public.

In America, some industries (autos and the airlines, to name two) have gone down that path of deluxe benefit packages and fat pension plans for retirees and they're now in deep trouble. Most people working in those industries are worried about their jobs and that's a model for the rest of us to avoid.

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"if you want to bust your balls and make a lot of money US is for you"

Based on this, the vast majority of us hard-working Americans must be millionaires. I know a number of hard-working Americans, and the last time I looked, none of them was exactly rolling in dough.

I think the initial poster had it right; we have become a government of the corporations and special interests, by the corporations and special interests, for the corporations and special interests. The people have all but been removed from the equation.

It's time we stopped measuring a person's worth or value by the size of their wallet or by who they know. As an American, I think it's also time we stopped trying to dictate to the rest of the world and instead take responsibility for the things we've done to help create the mess the world is in today.

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As an American, I think that Americans don't realize how bad the US really is. We have the worst Gini Index in the industrialized world--a measure of income inequality. We are comparable to the Phillipines and Bolivia, which is hardly enviable company. We spend 15% of our GDP on health care, but we have the worst public health statistics of any industrialized nation. 45 million Americans have no health care. We have an extremely low minimum wage, so many of the poor are forced to work 2 jobs to get by. We have a higher crime rate than Europe and a greater proportion of our citizens in jail.

France is certainly no paradise especially if you are a young person seeking a job, and France is actually loosening its employment rules (which is why the French students are protesting today).

Nonetheless, Americans should understand that we do pay pay high taxes, they just don't take the form of traditional taxes. We pay roughly 30% in taxes. Once you add another 15% for health care and you add the fact that you have to own a car to survive in the US, you realize that Americans have to pay almost as much as people in many European Countries and we receive much less--no universal health care, inadequate unemployment insurance, and inadequate welfare.

Americans have little vacation time and on average the Europeans have to work fewer hours per week. Despite the higher unemployment, I think most people would chose to live in Europe. European companies haven't done such a bad job of competing. We forget that France and Germany have a much higher productivity per hour than the average US worker. US companies have ruthlessly outsourced and we call this progress. Well the US economy is simply unsustainable. Look at the money flowing out and the mony flowing in. Look at the high rate of debt. If China or Japan decided to dump all their US currency reserves, the US economy would tank. I read the other day that if we had a depression, 5 million Americans would declare bankruptcy because they couldn't pay their debts. Our whole economy is built upon spending more money than we receive and eventually it will catch up with us.

So you have to add all those factors in to the equation when comparing the US to France.

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We have a higher crime rate than Europe and a greater proportion of our citizens in jail

Actually - the USA has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world, even slightly higher than post-genocide Rwanda...

I have never seen a figure for cop/citizen ratio, but if one counts all the "three letter agencies", plus police, plus sheriff, plus the various assorted specialized "law enforcment" agencies I would wager that the USA also leads the world in this field.

USA #1 - second to none!

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Is everyone blinded by the fact that most of this is a result of Americas freedoms? In the US a citizen if free to pursue any economic avenue they choose. I chose to go to college and work hard at my job. Financially I am rewarded for that. Others chose not to. They refuse to work hard if at all. They choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle. They choose to break the law. They choose to have tons of debt. Like it or not, this is the "evil" of American society, that 90% of Americans are willing to accept. I have the potential to exceed the norm. I do not want to be "averaged" by stupid laws that subsidize unwilling people and curtail they vision of those that want to exceed the norm. The US has already tried that with the education system, and you can see how well that's working.

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I'm sorry, but this is a gross oversimplification on so many levels. Not everyone who fails to succeed is unwilling to work. There are a lot of hard working people who are not financially rewarded to the extent you seem to imply.

Not everyone can choose to go to college. There are a number of factors that might prevent them, including the need to help support one's family (parents, brothers and sisters, even children).

I think most of this is the result of our skewed priorities. We jail a person for life if they kill someone, but if I bankrupt a billion dollar pension program, thereby destroying hundreds or even thousands of life, I'll either get probation or get sent to a country-club jail for a couple of years.

I think that 90-percent figure you pulled out of thin air is probably well off the mark. Even if it isn't, I'm proud to be part of the other 10-percent. For the record, I do have a job; I don't break the law; I don't have tons of debt; I don't live an economic lifestyle.

There are a lot of great things about America. Our sense of justice and social fairness, however, are not among them.

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They refuse to work hard if at all. They choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle. They choose to break the law. They choose to have tons of debt

That is exaclty the same argument slave-owners used about their slaves, imperialists about their colonized peoples, Afrikaaners about Black Africans, Jews about Arabs, etc. etc. etc. Its called "blaming the victim" to absolve oneself from any problems with one's conscience.

By de-humazing "them" you essentially turn your own amorality into a consquence of some obscurely defined inevitability.

The tuly sad thing is that you probably fancy yourself as a "patriot" while all the while despising those whose misery assures your own wealth.

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"Blaming the victim".... "THEY" are not the "Victims"...THEY CREATED VICTIMS. Contrary to your belief, these people are there because they committed crimes. They are not Political prisoners. They are slaves only to their own ability to follow the law. To compare them to slaves is to cheapen the slaves. The Slaves committed not crime.... they were the product of criminal thought... that people can be owned. So don't cheapen the past and those who struggled by even suggesting that a person who commits a crime in the US is in any way equal in definition, stature, plight, etc. to those who struggled for thier freedom. It's insulting.

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Sure there are the rare exceptions. I'm sure every government has a few, but overall, I think the comment is very valid. Regardless of the circumstances, everyone has the choice to do something else. If you feel they don't, I can tell you with 100% certainty, it's not because the government took away that right to choose. You know nothing about me, so don't say I don't know anything about which I speak. I chose a different road early in life and worked hard to get to where I am. That is the American way. For anyone that thinks the US directly or indirectly force kids to be fat, lazy, in debt, or put them in jail for no reason really doesn't have a clue. I know that no government is without fault, including the US, but I'd pick to be American any day of the week. I'm not sure where most of these comments facts are from, but they are just outright stories concocted to make an invalid point. That's not good journalism, and it's not good for debate either. It's really just silly.

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I hear jealousy in your troll. I don't remember any US bashing in the article? I also don't feel sorry for the 2 million "prisoners" that literally do nothing all day but suck our hard-earned tax dollars. By the way, you failed to mention that China only has 1.5 million communist prisoners because the vast majority of non-communist prisoners are executed. If the US executed 2 million prisoners to leave ZERO in "direct slavery", does that make the US the better place to live? By your argument, it does! That's the kind of slanted perspective most US-bashers take. It's a little old and still just as ridiculous as ever!

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According to Amnesty International, 3.400+ people were executed in China in 2004.

That's 3,400+ out of a population of over 1 billion.

And you talk about "slanted perspective"?! LOL!

As for unemployment: release 2 million prisoners (the majority of which are in prison for non-violent crimes) and we will see what unemployment figures do

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> As for unemployment: release 2 million prisoners
> and we will see what unemployment figures do

In a population of 1.3 billion, they might rise by around 0.15%. No significant effect.

> That's 3,400+ [executions] out of a
> population of over 1 billion.

That's about 13 times more than the US figures for 2004.

So China is significantly worse, but the US is still pretty bad (allowing for the execution of criminals who were minors or mentally deficient, and providing an appeals process so lengthy that the process itself amounts to cruel and unusual punishment - the British Privy Council held that a decade or so on death row met that criterion, and commuted a Commonwealth death sentence.

None of this means I hate the US -- just in case any paranoid-americans are reasing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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Interesting rant.... The original Mandrake was based in France. I don't know where they are HQ'ed today because all they say on thier site is:
"Mandriva, originally known as Mandrakesoft, is the result of the merger of several open source pioneers such as Mandrakesoft in France, Conectiva in Brazil, Edge IT in France and Lycoris in the US. "

So the creater of Mandrake is involved in a merger with a Brazillian company, get's laid off, and it's America's fault..... I LOVE living in a country where everyone else's bad decisions are OUR fault..... Bugger Off...

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So the creater of Mandrake is involved in a merger with a Brazillian company, get's laid off, and it's America's fault..

RTFP before getting all worked up - nobody suggested that the US is to blame for Duval's firing. First - read. Then - think. Then - post. Not the other way around<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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Got news for you genius... I DID. The point it YOU twisted the entire thing into an analysis about layoff in America. You made some rabid connection to the two that is so unrelated it defies explaination. Then, when anyone tries to talk about your RANT, you call them morons. The point is YOU ARE OFF POINT. The simple fact of the matter is a highly placed/paid person lost his job at a company trying to keep financially afloat. And when trying to be financially viable, you have to either focus to compete against giants like Red Hat or Novell, or trim the fat. That is all there is to it. This article had NOTHING to say about this man's benefits status, and frankly WHO CARES. So either keep your rants on topic, or expect people to wonder why you are spewing off about the US over an article that doesn't have anything to do with it. ITS CALLED FOCUS.....

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Actually there is a connection to the GP's post and it is is *very* relative.

Although Mandriva is a French-Brazilian company the GP was speaking about Corparatisim vs. Community, a subject that that defines the arc of Mandrake>Mandriva. I think most would agree that the US is the most extreme example of a corporate society.

"Duval said that last year Mandriva CEO Francois Bancilhon asked him to leave the company. Instead, Duval agreed to move from his long-time position as vice president of communication to head a new "community department" intended "to improve Mandriva's image in the open source arena." Now the company has terminated that effort.", community vs. corporatisim.

Gael Duval started Mandrake as a very community oriented Distro that drifted increasingly toward a business structure as it sought to achieve self-suficiency.

I agree that the GP's post was a bit of a rant, but I also believe It was related, and essentially correct.

And for the record my parents were business owners, and I am a business owner, here in the States.

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Thanks guys - you have made my case pretty well. Now I have a meeting to attend so I leave you the floor. Have fun!

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No, you had no point YOU HAD A RANT. Oh, and BTW, one thing that IS different in the US... starting a lawsuit because you think you are ENTITLED to work somewhere is insane. That is why captolism works... If someone does not perform, get someone who will. Progress never rests on the backs of blind, directionally challanged turtles....

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Now I have a meeting to attend

With your job club? Stay where you are and suck your govt dry.

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"Another thought which comes to my mind is this: I wish more Americans realized what it means to be laid-off in a civilized country. You get unemployment benefits, your healthcare is assured, you can sue an employer for wrongful terminiation of contract and if you do not have the money to sue, the state provides you with an lawyer. There are, of course, unions too which can represent you (even if you are not part of a union). Last, but not least, your insurance companies cannot simply drop you nor can you be evicted from your home. Oh, and you do not need a lawyer to get disability or loss of income benefits: you simply fill a form (and have a medical vist)."

I'm confused. So are you saying that this DOES or DOESN'T happen in America? This sure sounds American to me!

Oh,... and one more thing,...your an idiot!

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I'm confused (...) your an idiot!

LOL

(your != you are)

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Good you put that diclaimer at the end of your post. It spared me exactly 27 keystorkes.

I'm not saying that US is a perfect country, but I certainly wouldn't recommend France as a place to plant and grow your business. The hiring and firing constraints they put fort are just ridiculous, nothing else. The intrusive state and extortionist labor unions are plain scary (not to mention the outrageous farming subsidies ruining the whole EU). Read my lips: SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK. Been there, seen that.

Just for a little brain exercise

* unemployment rate (taux de chomage):
USA 4.8% in February
France 9.6% in January

GDP (PDB ) - per capita 2004
USA - $ 40,100
France - $ 28,700

Tax Freedom Day (Jour de la Liberation Fiscale)
USA - begining of April
France - midddle of July

Go figure...

P.S. And Mandriva s^E

  -NO CARRIER-

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The way US counts unemployment rate does not compare to most of Europe. It does not count people who stay home for one reason or another and not receiving unemployment benefits, nor does it count you if you are unemployed for a long time because you fall out of the system. In Europe most people who don't work are counted as unemployed, whatever their reason or status.

GDP/PDB counts the wrong thing. For example, a big chunk of the US GDP is made of lawsuits between US-based companies and individuals, whose net result is at best 0. Most (if not all) other countries get by with much less litigation, and therefore, less costs. US might still end up top if litigation was removed from GDP, but I haven't seen anyone do that calculation actually.

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The way US counts unemployment..It does not count people who stay home for one reason or another and not receiving unemployment benefits

Wrong

<a href="http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm" title="bls.gov">http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm</a bls.gov>

they make a statisticaly relevant survey.

By the way, in european countries, many unqualified people work clandestinely becuse the tax burden makes the labor cost to high for them to be employable. If the controling mechanism is tight enough they dont work at all. The employers simply cannot afford the taxes and social sec.+heathcare.The employers are also less willing to hire such a worker because of the firing constraints. This is a clear deformation of the labor market and constitutes a loss/loss situation. State is deprived of potential taxes and is forced to directly support such a person. State officials simply bribe the poor to be elected and help them stay poor longer.

Big chunk of the US GDP is made of lawsuits between US-based companies and individuals, whose net result is at best 0

Again, I dont think this is a relevant point as a wast majority of modern day wstern economies is constituted by services anyway. But I'm willing to give it a benefit of doubt here, I simply don't know. Maybe there are some clues in the growth of GDP (about 3%-US last two years<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/0.25% last two years in France), do you think that all this goes for lawyers? I don't want to argue that US is the paradise (i wouldnt like to live there) but France is as close to hell for a small business as it possibly could. That's my point.
I have no illusions about US politicians and their motives, on the other hand the french president escaped a bribe-related conviction only by getting elected, De Villepin never saw a real life close enough to be relevant and Sarkozy is simply hungry for power.
That country simply isn't the "realm of the civilised people" everyone should follow as the original poster claimed (nor is the US, I may add).

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All "economic" activity is included in the GDP and this includes litigation. Also the U.S. has a very high divorce rate that *adds* to the GDP. The GDP is not a very useful measure for the *quality* of life factors. The GP of this thread when mention "civilized" was referring to human right and quality of life factors that enhances standard of living.

The confusion in the U.S. is that it conflates GDP and "wealth" with standard of living.

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> P.S. And Mandriva s^E
> -NO CARRIER-

LMAO at americans still using dialup.

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You know, you don't have to feed the trolls. But, since you did, I just thought you should know:

USA HDI position: #10.

Norway: #1.
Iceland: #2.
Australia: #3
Luxembourg: #4
Canada: #5
Sweden: #6.

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Not that I am totally happy with what goes on here in the US, and especially here in California, land of the tax grab, it's still a pretty good place to live....

I've been to China, and assure you that comparisons to prisons isn't the one you want to make. Get outside any Special Enterprise Zone (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Goungzhou, etc...) and life pretty much reverts to something barely above 16th century Europen peasantry.

I've got nothing against the French, but for Christ's sake, stop blaming the US for all the world's ills. The whole place didn't go to hell because of just us.....

fuckin cheese eating surrender monkey...

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"The whole place didn't go to hell because of just us....."

Perhaps not, but I'm beginning to think we're the ones driving the bus.

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!!!

" I've got nothing against the French, but for Christ's sake, stop blaming the US for all the world's ills. The whole place didn't go to hell because of just us..... "

!! YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY RIGHT !!!! THE FUC**NG ENGLISH AND FRENCH ARE ARE TO BLAME TOO...

AND PROBABLY CHINA AND JAPAN WOULD BE TO BLAME IF THEY COULD HAVE MANAGED TO... THEY WILL MAYBE? OR AT LEAST CHINA...

" GUY, I am european and I have studied sociology, politics and economics in Spain, England, France and Belgium, Lived and travelled in more than 50 countries. So, not take it as arrogance, but<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. you are fuc**ng up the planet, more even than others did before you...

I WILL NOT EXTEND IN evidences AND RATIONALES HERE, AS OTHERS HAVE DONE IT HERE WITH VERY CLEAR AND CLEVER POSTS, BUT:


  The unemploiment rate figures of the US are ficticious(many millions are not really employed, but subemployed, with not real decent salaries,what makes then half workes, or half unemployed; several million people jailed - more dthan 2, Ihink- that if counted would make the statistics explode etc.).

The wealth figures of the US are ficticious too. You are talking of macroeconomic figures and mistake that with "QUALITY OF LIFE", lol.
THERE ARE THOGH, DIFFERENT WAYS AND MESUREMENTS OF GDP. NATURALLY, THE USA JUST TAKE THE WAY OF MESUREAMENT THAT INTEREST MORE FOR THE PROMOTION OF THE POWER OF THE COUNTRY...


  AN LAST, BUT NOT LEAST: THE USA IS DRIVING THE GLOBE TO A CRASH IN ENVIRONMENTAL AND BIOLOGICAL TERMS; AND IN THE NEAR FUTURE, NOT THE LONG TERM...

ANDTHE MAIN FACTOR FOR ALL THAT IS the USA-Corporation Socio-economic pattern, that simmply works right for some, when the wind blows in the good direction, but not for all, and not when the wind blows in another direction or simply does not blow...

Angel-Fr@gzill@

!!!

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To begin with, I am not a socialist nor a communist, so please don't label me as such because of what I'm about to say.

Your comment anent socialism is inherently false because it's a generalisation and based on false reasoning. Neither socialism, communism or any other form of political system, including democracy, has succeeded fully and without stain in the world. There has not been a pure and unstained form of socialism, communism or democracy. It is the human equation in the context of the human propensity to destroy the pure ideal that has caused this to be so, not because socialism or whatever is of itself unworkable.

Democracy is a sham. There is no truly democratic nation in the world. In fact, I haven't met anyone who knows what true democracy is - their version of democracy invariably falls far short of a true democracy.

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N'importe quoi : va te coucher.

    -- Gaël

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N'importe qui: va te faire foutre.

    --Duval

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I won't comment on your opinion, but the way you stated it and then backed it, was neither civilised nor democratic.

Saying something and then claiming that you will not bother replying to anyone...
And to top this, tracking posts one by one tagging them as "moron reaction #n"...
This is totally childish.

Disclaimer:I'm not an american, I'm a greek.

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I echo the parent posts' sentiment about what was Mandrake. I'd been a user since their 7.2 release also and up until 10.1 I was using it for desktops and servers alike. URPMI rocked.

However with the whole "Mandriva" castrating of Mandrake (just the name alone sucked so much it was intrinsically emasculating to even think of installing it) I looked towards Ubuntu, and Kubuntu specifically.

I'm really enjoying Kubuntu and I'm learning about the server aspects all the time as I'm getting ready to upgrade/replace servers which are running old MDK distros.

And for anybody who didn't understand the parent-posts' take on the US Prison system, there are companies which pay contrators who run commercial prisons to employ convicts to perform jobs, like telephone support, make products used by the military, and a variety of technical and non-technical outsourcing. Prisoners are employees who don't take vacations, don't require insurance, are monitored for illegal substances, and since things are done through a proxy there isn't always a direct connection to the stigma of prison labor for the company seeking an outsourced solution. So let's hear it for mandatory work program sentencing laws! For great corporate victory!!

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To the idiot parent who compares RPM with APT, please learn what the difference is. RPM = DEB and YUM = APT. You cannot compare Appels with Pears. Before starting on a moaning spree, please learn the BASICS of a distro.

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Around Mandrake 7.1's time, YUM barely existed, and certainly wasn't included in Mandrake. So, for that time, his comparison is perfectly valid.

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If the money does not come in, the payroll is not met. Simple math.

The services side of the arguement is what is all important here... with open source basicly the garden growing the food that the chef uses in the kitchen.,, then, the resturant that hires the chef (or is chef owned and operated), the resturant needs to provide the meal and the service... both are art forms, in and of themselves. You can eat for free in a soup kitchen, or you can drop easily $200 and more PER PERSON in some restuarnts for just food, wine, and service!

The apt-get service model currently has rpt beat... that is except for one - that was Ximain's RED CARPET, that Novell owns that they have renamed as the support delivery system for their "corporate" level product. For the masses you can have SuSE "YAST" "YOU" - but that still is not Red Carpet.

This guy should send his resume in to Ubuntu or another Debian distro... and see what happens?
Or go out and start his own resturant where he can service the hunger of the public directly (and get paid for it)!

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If your idea of a civilized country is:

a: big government
b: high taxes
c: lower economic growth rate
d: negative economic growth rate

then no, you are not civilized in any sort of fashion. Like or not, America offers a much higher average standard of living, makes it easier to obtain that standard of living, and the results are obvious. America's economy leaves all others behind in the dust.

And if you want to make the argument about those who are in prison, have you bothered checking the average crime rates per city in Amercia versus average crime rates in other countries per city? We hear a lot about land burning, work-shy, treacherous peasents in France rioting. You don't hear that about in America. We hear about student uprisings in China. You don't hear about that in America. America's Criminal Justice system, when applied properly, works. That can not be said about most other countries in the world.

Sorry poster, but your idea of civilized is far from civilized. And I will fight to my dying breath to make sure that America remains free from the effects of people with your mental thought train. You are dangerous, and we, collectively, will not allow you to control our country.

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a: big government
b: high taxes
c: lower economic growth rate
d: negative economic growth rate

it is oh so telling how your idea of civilization (or lack thereof) is only expressable in monetary terms.

The "almighty dollar" kulture...

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And YOURS ISN'T???

The things you are griping about, the "social" things you are talking about are all monetary. The difference is that you are getting these "Civilized" services and "rights" at the expense of others. I feel much better earning my money and having my sucess tied to my efforts rather than being dragged under by the anchor of leeches like you. So we are BOTH talking monetary. The difference is EARNINGS versus ENTITLEMENT. What is so civilized about taking all effort out of "having"? There is no appreciation, and no motivation. You get breadlines. You are just a civilized sucker of the national teet....

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Have you *ever* bothered considering the economic costs (since this is all you care about) of NOT having a civilized society? You pay it with your dollars each time you get overpriced medecine, you pay it with your dollars when you have to pay for prisons instead of schools, you pay for it by having idiotically gas wasting cars, you pay it by having a youth which is illiterate and dumbed out, you pay for it directly each time you loose your healthcare when you loose/switch jobs (only in America), you pay for it by having to accept ridiculous work conditions due to the abscence of civilized labor laws and you pay for it by having your a**hole torn when you end up on jail for whatever reason (another US speciality). Lastly, you pay for it by having no other allies than Israel, the Solomon Islands and Palau anywhere in the world - and even these three look down on you with utter disdain (each for its own reasons).

I feel sorry for you.

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Yeah, and the other thing we have to deal with.... those civilized Canuks who have to come HERE to get their operations because their country is so civilized, they cannot get to everyone.... Proof is in the pudding mate.

you may not like it. You don't have to agree. But it's clear in what this country has been able to do. What we have been able to advance. Computers, Space Travel, Medical Equipment, New Medicines. Once this country got off it's behind, we have been dominant in just about everything. When Free People are left to exercise that freedom, there isn't anything we cannot do.

So we are paying for all of that. GOOD. Your methods are like the Baseball players and Steroids. You want your results without the EFFORT. I PRIZE the experience in reaching my goals almost more than the payout from the effort. The money is secondary. I would rather work for what I have and apprecieate it than be beholden to the government for my handout. Your persepctive is simply incompatable with mine. So.... why are you so hung up over Lil Ol Us? If you are in the States and you hate it, leave. If not.... Bask in your Utopia and get off my back...

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From person experience I can relate fully to all you have said.

Switched to Mandrake at 7.3 because of Blue Curve at Red Hat. Switching from Mandriva today to OpenSuSE 10.1 as as far as I can figure out Mandriva is still at the Mandrake 10.1 level [2 years back]. Tried the new Mandriva 2005 and 2006 both crashed and burned on my laptop.

As far as layoff go been there done that several times. Been so broke after being a layoff that I was not sure where I was going to eat much less sleep.

As far as working my but off put in 16 hourd 7 dsys with no OT and as soon as job was cought up to good by see you some other time.

Been on projects where instant communication ment drive 100 miles through the desert [12 hours], stay over night, spend hours sending teleses [pre internet form of ditigal communication] and then returning a week later for the answers and being told that the problems were your fault that you did not keep management [in the US] informed of daily event on the project so you are just no good.

Hay guys the guy has some very valid points.

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I know. I have had friends loosing their jobs in both the USA and Europe and I know the huge difference. but the main one is not even an issue of money, it is an issue of how you are seen -and treated - by the rest of society or, I should say, by those who did not themselves experience what unemployment really is.

This is also why I posted my first comments: in order to spread the word as it is the only (peaceful) way to eventually get some changes happening in the USA. But right now I would not hold my breath - in fact things have been going downhill ever since Reagan's election. The current orgy of greed glorification by the Administration coupled with the utter lack of courage of the Democrats to stand for anything beyond "US owned ports" leaves me with no hope for a change anytime in the future.

Take care!

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While I don't know all the specifics and while I really like Gael (he is a really cool guy), I find the lawsuit against Mandriva unfair.

My husband who is also french every so often tells me how difficult it is to fire people in France. And because of some laws that make firing/lay-off difficult, companies tend to be very careful about recruiting too, resulting in fewer job openings.

My suggestion to Gael: drop the lawsuit. It serves no real purpose at this point except maybe fixing up your ego. Gael, I told you many times in the past, business are business. Don't take it personally. Mandriva needed to cut jobs to bring down costs and unfortunately you were one of the people who got laid off because the "community" part of the company doesn't bring as much money as corporations do. Layoffs happen all the time. And it's very possible that it will happen to you again until you reach 65 years old and stop working.

I mean, even Jobs had to run out of Apple in 1985 when the new CEO came in. He didn't sue back. Instead, he went his way like a gentleman and he continued working elsewhere. Who knows! With time you might become very successful again and buy Mandriva back!

But suing right now and under these circumstances which you alone said that it was not a personal vendetta or something, I personally find it ridiculous. You are better than this. I know you are.

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BTW, I just discussed the above comment of mine with my husband and he (wisely) told me:

"Suing a company where you were once an exec isn't a good idea. Even if he wins, he'll be known for having done that and that'll follow him for all his life. I've seen someone do exactly that in France (and they weren't even as high in the hierarchy as Gael was), and that person came out of the lawsuit so destroyed that he had to leave the country with his entire family. The laws that apply to abusive layoffs are designed to protect unskilled workers, not managers."

Gael, I have given you many UI suggestions for Mandriva over the years, but if you are going to keep ONE suggestion of all, keep this one: drop the lawsuit. For your own good.

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Eugenia Has Spoken.

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Not true. People have short memory so suing in never in vain specialy in France where the work laws protect well the employees, manager or not.

When you are a manager in France you are often lay off with small severance pay because the top management always think that you will not sue. I think Gael is right to do it.

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Eugenia,

NOT the lawsuit was unfair, the lay off was.

It is nice you want to give everyone a short lesson in French macroeconomics--or better some hearsay pseudo-information. Say it loud and clear to your very self: I HAVE NO CUE.

As you know, I am strongly in favour of free decision. Please grant this freedom to Gael. Now.

Your musing about His Steveness almost turned my stomach. Just another frizzing piece of rubbish (pardon my French), or, should I say, JAFP of Eugenia's hearsay information. Please stop feeding the world what you overheard and incorrectly remembered.

Last but not the least: I find you demotivating blubbering not only grossly unfair, but straight insulting to a reader's intelligence. Gael has been a moron to give up full control of his two babies: the company and the distribution. But it is too late to cry over the spilt milk. He will get the control back, or he will not, let him show what he is worth. But I will always tell him, and every one in his hard position as well: go after those sleek bastards, give them a hell of time, STARTIN' NOW !!!

Well I am not a Mandrake user. Never bought, never tried. But I like blokes who go out and do something, oh yes. That's precisely what Gael has been doing @ Mandrake/-driva.

He has not been just jabbering about other people's work like you always did, Eugenia. At times, you have been doing this quite well, or at least not too bad. So why not keep doing what you can do best, Eugenia?

It is not ours to tell Gael how he should decide. His decision is up to him--please leave it there.

To Gael I would like to say: go, and get them, now. Go on and win the legal proceedings. And keep up the good work.

Yours,
YBK

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Eugenia,



NOT the lawsuit was unfair, the lay off was.



It is nice you want to give everyone a short lesson in French macroeconomics--or better some hearsay pseudo-information. Say it loud and clear to your very self: I HAVE NO CUE.



As you know, I am strongly in favour of free decision. Please grant this freedom to Mr. Duval. Now.



Your musing about His Steveness almost turned my stomach. Just another frizzing piece of rubbish (pardon my French), or, should I say, JAFP of Eugenia's hearsay information. Please stop feeding the world what you overheard and incorrectly remembered.



Last but not the least: I find you demotivating blubbering not only grossly unfair, but straight insulting to a reader's intelligence. Gael has been a moron to give up full control of his two babies: the company and the distribution. But it is too late to cry over the spilt milk. He will get the control back, or he will not, let him show what he is worth. But I will always tell him, and every one in his hard position as well: go after those sleek bastards, give them a hell of time, STARTIN' NOW !!!



Well I am not a Mandrake user. Never bought, never tried. But I like blokes who go out and do something, oh yes. That's precisely what Gael has been doing @ Mandrake/-driva.



He has not been just jabbering about other people's work like you always did, Eugenia. At times, you have been doing this quite well, or at least not too bad. So why not keep doing what you can do best, Eugenia?



It is not ours to tell Gael how he should decide. His decision is up to him--please leave it there.



To Gael Duval I would like to say: go, and get them, now. Go on and win the legal proceedings. And keep up the good work.



Yours,

YBK



PS. Formatting... every time startling.

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Nuff said.

Moo!

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Regardless of the rest of the rants here, I'm really sorry to hear about Gael Duval's layoff. He was a good person, who started what was a great distro in it's day. Gael always was the one person at that company who you could email, with comments and suggestion.

For the ones who didn't like the article, read about the history of Mandrake, to see what effect corporatism had on this distro through the years. It's a surprising story.

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Duval's layoff could be good thing as he has now great oportunity to create better distro as Mandriva is now...

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He has the right to sue for whatever he wants, I guess. In the USA, though, he would have trouble getting employment, especially at an executive level, elsewhere. Also, unless he's either the top boss (CEO) or the owner, he doesn't have the right to employment at *any* firm.

On the other hand, if Mr. Duval is concerned about the community, then that's great! There's another organization--a corporation, actually--that is taking exactly that direction and is making a lot of headway. That firm's name is Canonical, Ltd. of South Africa, and if Mr. Duval does indeed have something beneficial to offer both the company and the community, then I'm pretty sure Mr. Shuttleworth would at least give him an audience. I think that this alternate course of action would better further Mr. Duval's goals of helping the community, as opposed to this lawsuit.

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Problem is he should never have been in this position anyway. Should he have a place at the table? Yeah... unless he does something grossly out of line. But VP of communications or whatever? Set up from the start. He had no real experience here (making some posts to slashdot ain't xp) and was set up to fail.

For the flamers: In Corporate U.S., he would have been paired with his abilities and given a chance to succeed. Guess what? In socialist whereever, he was given a feel good job and set up to fail.

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The question really is how much damage will the law suit do to both Gael and Mandriva?
How will possible future employers from the community regard Gael? Will they be too concerned about law suits to offer him jobs?
If sacking Gael is an effort to move Mandriva away from community and in a corporate direction why would long serving customers show any future loyalty?
Finally just how a smart a business decision sacking the community face of Mandriva is will be interesting?

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Soon, all the people the shareholders fire will unite and become the shareholders and fire the shareholders who will then unite and become the shareholders<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... just kidding, the system simply sucks. I mean, that guy was a founder of the operation.

I wonder what he really did do wrong : ) <speculation>such things never make it the open; see XFree86! maybe an acquisition in the near future is impending<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... ?</speculation>

Anyhow,

je voudrais dire bon jour a mr. Duval et souhaiter une bonne chance et beaucoup d'esprit pour les affaires complexes et defis a la future! Si vous deja avez un projet complet ("Ulteo") votre position n'est pas mal en aspect logistique (sans information, je ne pouvai pas commenter les aspects fonctionelles). Aussi, une grand nombre des projets dans logiciel libre sont tres animes, voudrai dire que le marche et dans flux dans plurieles directions.

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