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Feature: Linux
My Gentoo odyssey
By Joe Barr
on
September 19, 2006 (8:00:00 AM)
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Gentoo is a Linux distribution unlike any other I have used, not just in terms of how it does things, but in the philosophy which drives its design. Gentoo doesn't ask what it can do to make things easier, it asks you exactly what it is that you want it to do, and then does precisely and only that. I gave Gentoo a good try, but I won't be sticking with it. Why not? I'm glad you asked.
When I began my Gentoo adventure, I believed that the main difference between Gentoo and the other distributions I've used (Caldera, Red Hat, Mandrake, Xandros, Storm, SUSE, Debian, Slackware, and Ubuntu) was that it was a roll-your-own distro, requiring you to compile everything you use. But after struggling with Gentoo for 10 days, I realized I was wrong.
I began on a Friday and spent the weekend doing Gentoo installs -- ranging from the ultra-fast minimal install (live CD) to a partially pre-compiled Gentoo Reference Platform install from the live CD. On Monday I decided I was Gentoo-savvy enough to use it on my production desktop platform. I even joked with my co-workers about it, saying that back in the day, Gentoo users first had to rip the source code from the bone with their teeth before compiling and installing it, but now the live CD had sissified the process to the point that anyone could do it.
I exaggerated the ease of installing Gentoo. For a proper Gentoo install, you'll need to read the fine manual. Read it a couple of times. Cover to cover. Pay particular attention to the sections on USE flags and Portage.
You will hear, see, and read "RTFM" dozens of times before you're done. But don't make the mistake of thinking that simply means having a copy handy as a reference during the installation, because by the time a question appears, it may already be too late. You need to RTFM before you begin.
When you finish, you can start looking for answers to questions not covered in the manual. Learn everything there is to know about your hardware and the drivers the various components use. Study GCC and the options that govern the behavior of GCC version 4.1.1. You can find a short list here. You'll also want to have more than a nodding acquaintance with Xorg if you want to use a GUI display.
I did the first install by mistake. I thought I was installing the live CD. The minimal install is a live CD, too, but it's different. When it finished, less than 15 minutes later, I assumed it would then continue the install from the hard disk after I rebooted. But it just sat there. That was the first in a series of bad assumptions. On the plus side, it led me to the #gentoo IRC channel on irc.freenode.net.
The IRC resource
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When I asked how to continue after doing the (minimal) live CD install, they pointed me to the Gentoo 2006.1 live CD manual. After reading a few pages of the manual, I realized that the minimal live CD did not equal the Gentoo 2006.1 live CD. So I stopped and got the real thing.
After I had downloaded, burned, and booted from the live CD, I found myself with a network-connected GNOME desktop system with a cute but cool Gentoo background. The desktop included icons for Computer, Gentoo's home (Gentoo being the default user name), the CD-ROM drive, a CLI version of the Gentoo installer, a GTK version of the Gentoo installer, and an installer FAQ.
I selected the GTK installer and was presented with page 1 of a 17-page installation and configuration script. I chose the settings I felt most appropriate and kicked off the install. In no time at all, GCC began compiling everything that didn't move. That was Friday afternoon. At 10:30 on Saturday morning, it was still cooking, so I decided to take a different approach to the install.
For the next attempt, I followed the Gentoo Reference Platform (GRP) path, using pre-compiled packages anywhere I could. That worked out pretty well, and I played with and kicked the tires on Gentoo on my test box for the next day or so, learning how to use Portage and emerge to install applications. Then I thought I was ready for the big time, so I decided to migrate my production desktop machine from Ubuntu to Gentoo.
I didn't do this out of any unhappiness with Ubuntu. I try to move to a new distro every six to 12 months, so I don't get locked into a set of distro-blinders. I've happily used Ubuntu for over a year, and I'm sure I will run it again. But it was time to change, and what better way to check out Gentoo than a real-world scenario.
The migration begins
I began about noon on Monday. I decided to try an install more in keeping with Gentoo tradition and philosophy, by compiling almost everything except OpenOffice.org. Besides, it was the Labor Day holiday, so I had almost 24 hours before the workday began.
The live CD didn't like the video card in my machine. I noticed as I booted that the text began about three-quarters of the way across the screen, then wrapped around to continue on the left side. When the GUI display appeared, it was similarly offset. Using the monitor's auto-image adjust feature, I was able to set the display properly.
I selected the Stage 3 install, with GRP extras. When I tried to proceed, I couldn't, because I hadn't told the installer where I wanted to get the Stage 3 tarball. I didn't know where to get it, so I visited the #gentoo channel (and remained there until the install was done). Luckily, during an install from the live CD, you can surf, chat, and play games, so I didn't have to abort the install, and a kind soul on the channel gave me the URI for the tarball.
I chose the snapshot version of the Portage tree. When faced with the settings for make config, I accepted the defaults and moved on. I started to choose the live CD kernel, because the installer suggested that this would get the system up and running quickly. Then I noticed that I wouldn't be able to install any packages that required kernel sources if I did that, so I opted to fetch and build the kernel from source code.
I left the kernel-config option blank, selected GRUB as the boot loader, and specified that it live in the master boot record on /dev/hda. After selecting eth0 as my network interface device, and specifying DHCP for the network configuration, I accepted the default suggestions for cron duty and logging. From a menu of Extras offered, I chose GNOME, Xorg, and a few others.
Then the install began in earnest, and I became very good at playing Mah Jongg. When I got bored with that, I skimmed through the Gentoo FAQ. One of its questions read: "Gentoo is too hard to install and I feel like whining." The answer? "Please see /dev/null."
At 5:30 p.m. I checked Gentoo's progress. 120 of the 474 packages had been emerged. Some packages take longer than others, of course. Xlib seems to have been a biggie, for example, and since it had finished an hour before, 20 others had been compiled and installed. By 9:00 p.m., 175 packages were done. My hopes for the install finishing on the same day evaporated.
Install failure
By 7:30 a.m. Tuesday morning, Gentoo was up to package 326, and still cooking. A few hours later, after almost 24 hours of continuous compiling, the install failed when emerge said it could not emerge media-libs/zlib1.1.3.r2. At first I thought all was lost, but the FAQ and the IRC channel assured me that I could resume the emerge by specifying the --resume and --skip-first options. Emerge, however, had other ideas, and it told me there was nothing to resume.
I crossed my fingers and tried booting from the hard disk for the first time. It worked, and I logged in as root, since my attempt to add a user during the install had failed. I used the GNOME User and Group manager to add a user, signed off as root, and signed back in as an ordinary user.
The first order of business was to emerge Xchat so I could communicate with my colleagues on IRC. For the rest of the afternoon, I was happily Gentooing, emerging this and that, getting sound to work, tweaking my X config. I think it was something that I did trying to get the Nvidia driver installed that was my downfall. Whatever it was, it broke X beyond my ability to repair it. And while the IRC channel was sympathetic, it was really impossible for them to be helpful since I wasn't sure what I had done to break it. Sometime after 5 p.m., I decided I would have to bite the bullet and reinstall.
Post-mortem, I believe that I caused the problem by setting a keyword in /etc/make.conf to ~X86. That told Portage that using unstable code was fine with me. I made that change because one of the packages I wanted to emerge required it, and I didn't know the correct way to allow test/unstable code in a single package. I paid the price for not knowing that.
Gentoo install: take two
The second time around was a lot different than the first. Before starting the install, I moved my entire home directory from the first drive to the second so I could save it, since one of the things I had managed to do before crashing the system was to recover my email, chat, and browser settings and data from the second drive.
In the interest of speed, I chose GRP binary packages wherever possible. A little more than an hour later, I had a working system again, with no loss of data. The resolution wasn't right on my monitor, but I was afraid to try to fix it, given what had just happened with my last X experimentation.
I lived with the bad resolution for the next few days while trying to catch up at work and continuing to emerge and tweak the system to get it back to the same functionality it had while running Ubuntu. Finally, I decided to try to resolve the resolution issue.
Right away, X started crashing again, complaining that the frequency was "out of range," even though it was not. Even worse, I couldn't figure out how to get it to boot into single-user mode, and the GRUB menu contained nothing but a single boot option, which started GDM and crashed before I could do anything.
I experimented with various edits to the GRUB boot commands, but never found the right magic. I decided to simply copy the working Xorg.conf from the live CD to my disk and use it. After booting the live CD, I mounted the drive and copied the file, then rebooted from the hard drive. Success!
Then I noticed that I had lost my sound again.
That was the final straw. I was spending all of my time tending to Gentoo and none of my time being productive. I called a halt to the great migration and admitted to myself that I was simply not good Gentoo material.
Is Gentoo for you?
About an hour later, Gentoo was gone, replaced by Debian Etch. It took me five minutes to get the sound working, another five for the printer, and the resolution problem never happened. And though I still have a little bit of tweaking to do, the system is very nearly as functional now in all respects that it was when I was running Ubuntu.
Why are Gentoo and I not meant for each other? I'm sure there will be a few Gentoo users who will blame me for all the problems. Let me cut them off early. I agree. If I knew everything there was to know in order to be a competent Gentoo geek, I'm sure I never would have run into all those problems. It's my own fault.
Gentoo is a popular, powerful, well-crafted distribution that panders to your geek side to the nth degree. You want control? Gentoo hands you the reins and wishes you good luck. How much luck you need depends on how much you know. But it's simply not for me. Like a good programmer, I'm lazy. While it was once fun to compile the kernel and mention it the next morning while grabbing a cup of coffee, these days I want to use my machine for things other the care and feeding of the operating system.
Comments
on My Gentoo odysseyNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
Gentoo is a fantastic operating system. However, if you come from a "I don't want to do any work, but I just want to install something and use it" scenario, it may not be for you. For me personally, seeing as I cut my teeth back before all the distros this person listed existed, I used Slackware, and I used FreeBSD. Seeing as to me, I like compiling from source when I get the chance because my optimized toolchain makes improves the performance and robustness of my system. I'm not sure why the author of this article claims that he was going to "roll" his own Linux, as that is not technically correct. You can do similar things with other distros, but you have to use source packages instead of the binary ones. So seeing that he did not perform that route, it seems like the author was going to use Gentoo for one of its features (being portage), and rather than not read to see how it works and how to resolve errors that may exist, he decided to switch to another operating system, being Debian.
Gentoo isn't really about the software as much as it is about a "process". Based on the dialogue of the author, I would not recommend him to Gentoo anyway, as it seems he or she simply wants to play with Linux, or at least to simply have a "Linux based worksation". However, Gentoo is for those who want to get under the hood of their distribution. You can tune the software you put on it, and you can choose the level of integration it has with each other. If this is not your interest, then yes, move along. I used Debian for years as well, but as with any binary only managed pacakge system, I found it to be constraining. However, if I went back and used source based packages and used the tips for tuning and all that I have learned with Gentoo, I could make any distro behave the way I want.
Bottom line, if you are not willing to read documentation and you are not interested in the inner workings for the operating system (i.e. you have no love for computer optimization, computer science, etc), then stay away from Gentoo. It's only for the bold.
Gentoo isn't really about the software as much as it is about a "process". Based on the dialogue of the author, I would not recommend him to Gentoo anyway, as it seems he or she simply wants to play with Linux, or at least to simply have a "Linux based worksation". However, Gentoo is for those who want to get under the hood of their distribution. You can tune the software you put on it, and you can choose the level of integration it has with each other. If this is not your interest, then yes, move along. I used Debian for years as well, but as with any binary only managed pacakge system, I found it to be constraining. However, if I went back and used source based packages and used the tips for tuning and all that I have learned with Gentoo, I could make any distro behave the way I want.
Bottom line, if you are not willing to read documentation and you are not interested in the inner workings for the operating system (i.e. you have no love for computer optimization, computer science, etc), then stay away from Gentoo. It's only for the bold.
Perhaps you are unaware who "this person" is. The fact you can type "joe barr" (without the quotes, no less) in Google and just click "I feel lucky" should give you a clue that "this person" is not unaccustomed to Linux or setting up systems.
The real bottom line of "this person" is that he has a job to do. If the distro stops being a tool and starts getting in the way of the real job, some other distro is probably more suited. NOTE: not "better" but more suited.
And, get off my damn lawn! Young whippersnappers have no respect for thier elders.
The real bottom line of "this person" is that he has a job to do. If the distro stops being a tool and starts getting in the way of the real job, some other distro is probably more suited. NOTE: not "better" but more suited.
And, get off my damn lawn! Young whippersnappers have no respect for thier elders.
The subject isn't Joe Barr, and more over I could care less who it is. Moreover, how do you not know that I am his and your elder, eh? Right, so back on topic, the real bottom line is that if you see your Linux system as a system with some sort of overseeing management of configuring each and every piece so that you don't have to know the fine details of the system, then by all means, Ubuntu is for you (and that is for you AND Joe Barr). If you wish to individually manage each piece, and you don't mind reading documentation in the process, then Gentoo is for you. Am I to believe simply because a person writes articles on Newsforge, Linux.com, that I am supposed to simply say "oh wth am I talking about! It's Joe Barr!" Let's not be Trolls, shall we?
Very good explanation hasues
I decided to give Gentoo a go back in 2002 after I had my fill of just about every RPM based distro (RH, Mandrake, Suse), and did a GRP install with Gentoo 1.4. I had no problem using the manual to get all of my hardware and software working.
After I did the GRP to get a GUI up and running quickly, I then emerged the latest version of my preferred GUI (KDE). With the exception of RPM, I was a complete noob when it came to anything CLI, and I thought the Gentoo install was pretty easy if you just followed what was in the manual.
I've installed Gentoo four or five times, since then, and I've always found the manual easy to follow.
The only thing I don't like about the new GUI installer is that if you prefer to do an install by hand, the manual is nowhere to be found on the CD, and on 2006.0, the GUI installer failed several times before finally churning out a decent base system.
I just hope the 2006.1 GUI installer has the kinks worked out, and that the manual is on the CD as a backup.
After I did the GRP to get a GUI up and running quickly, I then emerged the latest version of my preferred GUI (KDE). With the exception of RPM, I was a complete noob when it came to anything CLI, and I thought the Gentoo install was pretty easy if you just followed what was in the manual.
I've installed Gentoo four or five times, since then, and I've always found the manual easy to follow.
The only thing I don't like about the new GUI installer is that if you prefer to do an install by hand, the manual is nowhere to be found on the CD, and on 2006.0, the GUI installer failed several times before finally churning out a decent base system.
I just hope the 2006.1 GUI installer has the kinks worked out, and that the manual is on the CD as a backup.
I agree with this. I guess for me knowing that the real "guts" to the installer (at least for non Stage1 installs) is that they simply decompress a tar file of the system. You simply take it from there installing software from it from the snapshot of portage. Rather than use Gentoo's boot disk, I have used SuSE, etc. as it doesn't matter, the concept was the same. Gentoo has occassional hiccups concerning certain e-builds, but that's all part of human error. I have seen my share of these in Debian, SuSE, Red Hat,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...all of them. So, I accept that and move on.
A HOWTO to help you with a Gentoo Linux 2006 installation.
A script to walk you through a Gentoo Linux 2005.1 installation (still relevant to 2006), at:
<a href="http://linux.coconia.net/" title="coconia.net">http://linux.coconia.net/</a coconia.net>
linux.coconia.net also has HOWTOs on:
1) cloning your windows XP/2000 installations using Linux (back-ups).
2) installing windows XP/2000 on a spare partition with Linux.
3) accessing and writing to Windows XP (formatted with the NTFS) from Linux.
4) some discussion on the GPL and non-free third party kernel modules.
5) remix those 14 Debian installation CDs as 2 DVDs.
6) compile the worlds best DVD/Movie/Video/MP3 Player and Encoder (MPlayer and MEncoder).
7) 3D acceleration for ATI cards (simple procedure, works for SuSE, Mandriva and Debian).
8) the entire book "Linux Device Drivers 3" in HTML format.
A script to walk you through a Gentoo Linux 2005.1 installation (still relevant to 2006), at:
<a href="http://linux.coconia.net/" title="coconia.net">http://linux.coconia.net/</a coconia.net>
linux.coconia.net also has HOWTOs on:
1) cloning your windows XP/2000 installations using Linux (back-ups).
2) installing windows XP/2000 on a spare partition with Linux.
3) accessing and writing to Windows XP (formatted with the NTFS) from Linux.
4) some discussion on the GPL and non-free third party kernel modules.
5) remix those 14 Debian installation CDs as 2 DVDs.
6) compile the worlds best DVD/Movie/Video/MP3 Player and Encoder (MPlayer and MEncoder).
7) 3D acceleration for ATI cards (simple procedure, works for SuSE, Mandriva and Debian).
8) the entire book "Linux Device Drivers 3" in HTML format.
I have been an avid gentoo user for years now and I love it for all the reasons that you state. Gentoo is NOT for everyone (yet), but it WILL teach you more than 99% of people want to know about their computer and linux. If more people read articles like yours before they tried to install gentoo there would be less people like you that get frustrated with the install. One thing that you should mention though is that forums.gentoo.org is an excellent source for figuring out issues.
BTW... I love your last paragraph.
BTW... I love your last paragraph.
Nod, nod, nod. But I won't have it any other way...
That was pretty much my reaction, I prefer to work from source. Indeed, for the most part, I have to work from source. Most of my computers aren't x86 or AMD64. Once you stray from the x86 mainstream, your only real choices are Debian and Gentoo. Of the two, I prefer Gentoo. Or rather, for building from source for non-x86 systems, I prefer Portage over Apt.
I suppose I could use one distribution on my servers and a different one on my workstations, but that seems inefficient. It defeats some of the cross-platform appeal of using one distribution across 7 CPU architectures.
I suppose I could use one distribution on my servers and a different one on my workstations, but that seems inefficient. It defeats some of the cross-platform appeal of using one distribution across 7 CPU architectures.
How can you say that Gentoo teaches you Linux, or how things work?
LFS teaches you.
Slackware does too.
Hell, I think you have a point, most distributions teach you something, SuSE does less than Gentoo for sure<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
But you must differ -
If the user must run
emerge --some_option --some_other_option
then you are learning a TOOL
not HOW something works!
LFS teaches you.
Slackware does too.
Hell, I think you have a point, most distributions teach you something, SuSE does less than Gentoo for sure<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
But you must differ -
If the user must run
emerge --some_option --some_other_option
then you are learning a TOOL
not HOW something works!
That was a really nice read. I think any honest person that has tried Gentoo will nod while reading<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
About the Grub issue, have you tried booting from the Grub command line? You should be able tospecify kernel/boot-options there
About the Grub issue, have you tried booting from the Grub command line? You should be able tospecify kernel/boot-options there
Hmmmm interesting. my back ground has been Redhat4.2 to Redhat7.0 I migrated to Mandrake 8 and stopped at Mandrake 10. I Found Debian install horrible and I didn't like it. I Play with SuSE due to work requirements.
The reason why I moved away from the above was so that I could use Enlightenment on all my systems. I hate KDE and Gnome as a window managers, I wanted fast graphics and unique looking interfaces, if I wanted my system to behave like windows I would have installed windows, and KDE and gnome behave just like windows.
I have been using Gentoo at home for the last 2 years. I have never had problems as described in the article. To me it appears the author did not follow the manuals as they are intended. I read the manuals, and followed them step by step and have had flawless installs, especially on my MythTV server. I have had less greif installing Gentoo and configuring my HDTV card than with Redhat and Mandrake.
The reason why I moved away from the above was so that I could use Enlightenment on all my systems. I hate KDE and Gnome as a window managers, I wanted fast graphics and unique looking interfaces, if I wanted my system to behave like windows I would have installed windows, and KDE and gnome behave just like windows.
I have been using Gentoo at home for the last 2 years. I have never had problems as described in the article. To me it appears the author did not follow the manuals as they are intended. I read the manuals, and followed them step by step and have had flawless installs, especially on my MythTV server. I have had less greif installing Gentoo and configuring my HDTV card than with Redhat and Mandrake.
Arch Linux is similar to Gentoo in that it does what you ask it to and nothing else. In one 100th of the time. Well, you don't have to compile any packages unless you want to. Then you can, easily.
You need to know a bit about how a Linux system works, and you should read the manual. But if you don't, and get stuck, you can ask. Then you'll most often get a straight answer, or be pointed to a specific place in the manual or in the formums that can help you out.
You need to know a bit about how a Linux system works, and you should read the manual. But if you don't, and get stuck, you can ask. Then you'll most often get a straight answer, or be pointed to a specific place in the manual or in the formums that can help you out.
Yeah, package management is much simpler and more fun in lunar and sourcemage. Gentoo's portage was modelled after freebsd's ports, which starts to show its age. But, then again, no-one has ever claimed that gentoo would be the easiest distro out there.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
I became a Gentoo user a while back, and this was my experience.
1. Glibc had a minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
2. Next day, Xorg had a minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
3. Next day, Kde had a minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
4. Next day, Xorg had another minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
5. Next day, Kde had another minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
And that is what the gentoo experience is: endless recompilation for every single minor, trivial update to any package.
The good news is that my CPU, usually idle, actually spent a lot more time maxed at 100%.
I'm now a kubuntu user and I am loving it!
1. Glibc had a minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
2. Next day, Xorg had a minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
3. Next day, Kde had a minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
4. Next day, Xorg had another minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
5. Next day, Kde had another minor update. Had to recompile the entire thing, taking hours.
And that is what the gentoo experience is: endless recompilation for every single minor, trivial update to any package.
The good news is that my CPU, usually idle, actually spent a lot more time maxed at 100%.
I'm now a kubuntu user and I am loving it!
I installed Gentoo on my server to replace Suse. The reasons for this were that the machine was my old desktop, and so I wanted to get the most out of its more limited CPU and hard drive. I found Gentoo excellent for the following reasons:
1) I now have a far better understanding of how Linux works underneath. It is a necessary part of doing the install to know where to configure everything.
2) The server flys along quickly and happily, with little or no interference from me.
3) The Gentoo documentation is excellent - better than any other distro I have seen. In fact I often use the Gentoo docs if I need help doing things in other distros.
I have the following caveats however:
a) The server Gentoo install is a headless install - I really couldn't be bothered to do a full KDE install on it, simply due to the size of the download and time it takes to compile.
b) I don't upgrade all of the packages on a regular basis - only when I *need* the new features. In my experience upgrading a perfectly functional system is a recipe for a lot of potential work to get it all working correctly!
In short, I find Gentoo an excellent server distro, especially if you need to use older hardware. I use Ubuntu on my desktop however.
1) I now have a far better understanding of how Linux works underneath. It is a necessary part of doing the install to know where to configure everything.
2) The server flys along quickly and happily, with little or no interference from me.
3) The Gentoo documentation is excellent - better than any other distro I have seen. In fact I often use the Gentoo docs if I need help doing things in other distros.
I have the following caveats however:
a) The server Gentoo install is a headless install - I really couldn't be bothered to do a full KDE install on it, simply due to the size of the download and time it takes to compile.
b) I don't upgrade all of the packages on a regular basis - only when I *need* the new features. In my experience upgrading a perfectly functional system is a recipe for a lot of potential work to get it all working correctly!
In short, I find Gentoo an excellent server distro, especially if you need to use older hardware. I use Ubuntu on my desktop however.
>I really couldn't be bothered to do a full KDE install on it, simply due to the size of the download and time it takes to compile.
If you really want this, why don't you build the packages on another box then. But gui software doesn't belong on a server anyways...
If you really want this, why don't you build the packages on another box then. But gui software doesn't belong on a server anyways...
1) Better understandig of how Linux works? Sounds more like you can now cut & paste from the Gentoo manuals. Linux per se is _only_ the kernel. And no, editing configuration files below<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/etc by hand does not make a you a Linux-Pro. UNIX hackers have been doing that for >20 years...
2) Sounds very subjective to me. Did you actually take the time to benchmark Suse vs. Gentoo? How much faster is your mysql, apache, sambe whatever churning through requests?
3) I've found them to be little more than cut & paste howtos that leave you wondering what's happening behind the scenes.
b) That's one of my biggest complaints with Gentoo. AFAIK there is no way to cherry-pick upgrades. I don't want to rebuild gcc or my libc every other day, _unless_ there's a security hole. This forces me to manually review almost every emerge. Yuck.
On a side note: Having a compiler installed on a real server sounds like a bad idea to me. But then, from your post, it sounds more like it's just an old tower sitting in the corner dishing out some files...
2) Sounds very subjective to me. Did you actually take the time to benchmark Suse vs. Gentoo? How much faster is your mysql, apache, sambe whatever churning through requests?
3) I've found them to be little more than cut & paste howtos that leave you wondering what's happening behind the scenes.
b) That's one of my biggest complaints with Gentoo. AFAIK there is no way to cherry-pick upgrades. I don't want to rebuild gcc or my libc every other day, _unless_ there's a security hole. This forces me to manually review almost every emerge. Yuck.
On a side note: Having a compiler installed on a real server sounds like a bad idea to me. But then, from your post, it sounds more like it's just an old tower sitting in the corner dishing out some files...
Re:Gentoo is great on the Server - and on the Desk
Posted by: Administrator on September 20, 2006 12:15 PM
I use Gentoo since a year ago in my desktop system, and I couldn't be happier with any distro.
I've used Red Hat, Mandrake and Debian Sarge, and they were good, but I don't need to flame them just because I've found something better (_for me_).
The problem is that Gentoo is not a distro for everyone. You MUST be interested in how a computer works if you want to have fun with Gentoo.
In fact, if I have to install a Linux to any friend, my choice will be always Ubuntu/Kubuntu, but I wouldn't install Ubuntu in my computer. It's the perfect distro for anyone that only wants to USE his computer, in the easiest possible way.
However, if this friend is a computer g33k and wants to have fun, we will probably install Gentoo. I've done that with some friends, and now they are gentoo-geeks (and some of them even have a girlfriend o_O!).
Btw, there are no KDE or Xorg updates since months.
I haven't compile any package in weeks, and my system is fully functional and updated.
And, if I want to update my system, I leave it compiling while I sleep. Sorry, but I can't see the problem. I am too unsocial-geek?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(
>> "Sounds more like you can now cut & paste from the Gentoo manuals"
Ok. What Gentoo can't do is to _force_ you to learn things. The documentation is there, so you can:
1.- go and copy/paste without understanding anything (then you are not interested in hoy your system works, then probably Gentoo is not for you)
2.- go, read the documentation, search for additional documentation to understand how it works, and then copy/paste _or_ write your own better code.
Anyway I think this happens in every distro, you can copy/paste or learn how to do it.
User's choice.
Even in Ubuntu.
If you don't want to know what's happening behind the scenes, it's because you don't want to.
>> "AFAIK there is no way to cherry-pick upgrades."
Oh, yes, you can. There are some packages that I don't want to upgrade (in example, the new version of yakuake sux), I tell it to portage, and portage doesn't upgrade them. I can even configure what versions I want and what don't.
Anyway, I don't understand why are you upgrading gcc every day, I haven't compiled gcc in months. I only compiled it some weeks ago because I switched to an "unstable" version to test things.
I've used Red Hat, Mandrake and Debian Sarge, and they were good, but I don't need to flame them just because I've found something better (_for me_).
The problem is that Gentoo is not a distro for everyone. You MUST be interested in how a computer works if you want to have fun with Gentoo.
In fact, if I have to install a Linux to any friend, my choice will be always Ubuntu/Kubuntu, but I wouldn't install Ubuntu in my computer. It's the perfect distro for anyone that only wants to USE his computer, in the easiest possible way.
However, if this friend is a computer g33k and wants to have fun, we will probably install Gentoo. I've done that with some friends, and now they are gentoo-geeks (and some of them even have a girlfriend o_O!).
Btw, there are no KDE or Xorg updates since months.
I haven't compile any package in weeks, and my system is fully functional and updated.
And, if I want to update my system, I leave it compiling while I sleep. Sorry, but I can't see the problem. I am too unsocial-geek?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(
>> "Sounds more like you can now cut & paste from the Gentoo manuals"
Ok. What Gentoo can't do is to _force_ you to learn things. The documentation is there, so you can:
1.- go and copy/paste without understanding anything (then you are not interested in hoy your system works, then probably Gentoo is not for you)
2.- go, read the documentation, search for additional documentation to understand how it works, and then copy/paste _or_ write your own better code.
Anyway I think this happens in every distro, you can copy/paste or learn how to do it.
User's choice.
Even in Ubuntu.
If you don't want to know what's happening behind the scenes, it's because you don't want to.
>> "AFAIK there is no way to cherry-pick upgrades."
Oh, yes, you can. There are some packages that I don't want to upgrade (in example, the new version of yakuake sux), I tell it to portage, and portage doesn't upgrade them. I can even configure what versions I want and what don't.
Anyway, I don't understand why are you upgrading gcc every day, I haven't compiled gcc in months. I only compiled it some weeks ago because I switched to an "unstable" version to test things.
Sorry, I disagree. I had a Gentoo server til a few months ago, that is now a Debian server. We installed software in the last year and got more or less everything working, but at some point those compiling orgies are a real PITA. Servers are all about having services online, and most users just don't care about the OS on the machine. When I need a mailserver, I'd like to see it online by the end of the day and not by the end of next week. I personally experienced less problems with Debian howto's, and I guess that has to do with release cycles. When you setup 3 Gentoo servers in a month, you usually have 3 different versions of your server software required 3 differents sets of settings, so at best you would require 3 different howto's. Yes, you can solve most of the problems in the Gentoo forum, but I think it seriously hinders productivity.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a real Gentoo fan. I currently run an update on my laptop for a week now. I have a machine here doing nothing but compiling our Gentoo based distro, and still think catalyst is a great tool for creating your own livecd-based distro. But if I had an office with x desktop machines, I'd never wanted Gentoo on those machines. You usually have x different versions of each app on those machines and supporting this is a nightmare in my eyes.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a real Gentoo fan. I currently run an update on my laptop for a week now. I have a machine here doing nothing but compiling our Gentoo based distro, and still think catalyst is a great tool for creating your own livecd-based distro. But if I had an office with x desktop machines, I'd never wanted Gentoo on those machines. You usually have x different versions of each app on those machines and supporting this is a nightmare in my eyes.
Has it crossed your mind that if you have x different installs of any distro on x company machines, then you're way out of control? Most companies I know have already figured out how to use disk images and so...
You know<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... if it's a minor update<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... you don't have to update it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... unless you are just typing "emerge -u world" like a bad admin would.
Okay - I can believe Xorg having two minor updates that close together (because it happened at least once), but recompiling the whole of KDE twice two days apart? The only time all of KDE gets updated at once is when a new version is released (every few months) - and if you're using stable, it happens even less often. Since KDE is split up into multiple packages, you shouldn't end up recompiling the whole thing very often at all. (Which is fortunate, as it takes ages...)
(Also, I think Gentoo is actually moving over to modular X at the moment, which means long recompiles of Xorg should become a thing of the past).
(Also, I think Gentoo is actually moving over to modular X at the moment, which means long recompiles of Xorg should become a thing of the past).
> Also, I think Gentoo is actually moving over to modular X at the moment, which means long recompiles of Xorg should become a thing of the past
It's done; I recall having to do the install/tweak thing a month or two ago for Xorg 7 (I think that's right; could be wrong on the version number)
It's done; I recall having to do the install/tweak thing a month or two ago for Xorg 7 (I think that's right; could be wrong on the version number)
wah! That's your own fault for running kde. You know that no one was forcing you to check for daily updates.
BTW, anyone who can't successfully install gentoo is a 'tard. The author has a linux background (not including linspire)?
BTW, anyone who can't successfully install gentoo is a 'tard. The author has a linux background (not including linspire)?
"BTW, anyone who can't successfully install gentoo is a 'tard. The author has a linux background (not including linspire)?"
Anyone who says things like this is a d*ck who only hurts the Linux community.
Anyone who says things like this is a d*ck who only hurts the Linux community.
Man, you are so a moron!!!
I have been using Gentoo for 1 month and I found 2 updates of firefox and gnome in this time. And I chose not to install them. You did recompile everything because you wanted to. Gentoo never forces the user for an update. So don't say "Gentoo Stinks".
I have been using Gentoo for 1 month and I found 2 updates of firefox and gnome in this time. And I chose not to install them. You did recompile everything because you wanted to. Gentoo never forces the user for an update. So don't say "Gentoo Stinks".
Wanna love other great distributions
Try Gentoo First
I tried gentoo live cd installer. Lost patience with my pc. Deleted half baked partition done by gentoo by using gparted (from my sweet ubuntu)
Try Gentoo First
I tried gentoo live cd installer. Lost patience with my pc. Deleted half baked partition done by gentoo by using gparted (from my sweet ubuntu)
I lol'ed
did you have emerge -up world set to run every morning?
or do you even know how to set that up?
If kubuntu's for you then use it, and quit knocking other distro's, especially when it makes you look like an idiot. If I wanted to use precompiled binaries for everything I'd be using windows, but that's me, have fun doing what you like and keep your nose out of everyone elses buisness, or at least keep your comment's constructive.
did you have emerge -up world set to run every morning?
or do you even know how to set that up?
If kubuntu's for you then use it, and quit knocking other distro's, especially when it makes you look like an idiot. If I wanted to use precompiled binaries for everything I'd be using windows, but that's me, have fun doing what you like and keep your nose out of everyone elses buisness, or at least keep your comment's constructive.
As is the nature of the distribution. If you are unhappy with updating your system ever single day, DON'T. Leave it too once a week, or even once a month, or if you're game, once a (linux) year (~ 5 months), or even once a (calender) year. If you --sync and --update world every single day, you will, as you say, be endless recompiling your system.
Gentoo is really a great distro, but not for anyone yet. It will require a lot of precious time reading manuals, forums and articles in order to really use the distro (portage and friends).
The majority of distros hides from the user the trouble of tunning the system, which will give the user, along the headache, a lot of knowledge about the system.
It was a big time for me reading your article. Remembered myself a few years ago. Hehe! If you wanna learn more about Linux and stuff, try Gentoo again.
Best regards!
The majority of distros hides from the user the trouble of tunning the system, which will give the user, along the headache, a lot of knowledge about the system.
It was a big time for me reading your article. Remembered myself a few years ago. Hehe! If you wanna learn more about Linux and stuff, try Gentoo again.
Best regards!
Re:With power comes great responsability!
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 20, 2006 06:06 AM
That's cute -- 'not for anyone yet'.
The new way of instlling Gentoo is a joke.
I have no idea why the Gentoo devs thought it would be a good idea and be like the other distros. Gentoo is NOT like the rest, so why try to act like them?
To really get a good understanding of Gentoo is to do it the old way. To do it all by hand, and its not that hard. The Gentoo.org handbook makes it pretty complex and hard to understand.
<a href="http://gentoo-install.com/" title="gentoo-install.com">http://gentoo-install.com/</a gentoo-install.com>
Yes it links to the other guides, but its another way of installing Gentoo, and its easy to understand.
If you have used Linux before you shouldnt have any issues.
I have no idea why the Gentoo devs thought it would be a good idea and be like the other distros. Gentoo is NOT like the rest, so why try to act like them?
To really get a good understanding of Gentoo is to do it the old way. To do it all by hand, and its not that hard. The Gentoo.org handbook makes it pretty complex and hard to understand.
<a href="http://gentoo-install.com/" title="gentoo-install.com">http://gentoo-install.com/</a gentoo-install.com>
Yes it links to the other guides, but its another way of installing Gentoo, and its easy to understand.
If you have used Linux before you shouldnt have any issues.
Interesting article. I'm a Gentoo user, though I'm rather agnostic regarding distros, and I'd have to agree that installing Gentoo is a good thing for a newbie who wants to learn. It will teach you very important fundamentals that you would never think of doing on purpose any other time. I'd have to say that I do not like the new quickie-install live CD. I think it should be old-school Stage 1 installs for Gentoo. That's what they excel at and should stick with it. Many other comments from various viewpoints are relevant as well. On the one hand, the system should be primarily useful ASAP. On the other hand, Gentoo boxen, once built, hardly need any work. It's simply a matter of needs vs. wants. No need to flame anyone. One of the major roadblocks for Gentoo is it's use of portage. AFAIK, it's the only distro that does so and you'd have to install an RPM package installer to get RPM's up and running. This makes things a little more difficult when apps are scattered all over the landscape with RPM installers prebuilt and no ebuilds. Otherwise, Gentoo is a pretty damn good distro.
I, too, tried a Gentoo Stage 3 install. Yep, I actually got everything working, but it took a couple of tries. I of course knew this going in.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) But after I was done, I ended up with a system that really wasn't any faster a desktop box than my Slackware 10.2 box at home (custom-compiled 2.6.17.13 kernel, 2.6.16.19 before then). Yeah, you have to be a little 1337 to properly play with Gentoo, but that's kinda the point of Gentoo--total control, the closest thing a distro can be to Linux From Scratch (LFS).
[ShamelessPlugForSlackware]
Patrick really does keep it clean and standard; having used command lines since DOS 2.0 and Applesoft BASIC, I've had no discomfort keeping my Slackware box up to date. It's pretty easy to configure once you remember that it uses the BSD style of rc files. In less than three hours (this includes the time to compile your kernel), you can have a Slackware system that runs just about as fast as Gentoo, without spending three days. Oh, and if you need GNOME (I need Evolution for work--MS Exchange Server), just install DropLine GNOME (another hour, depending on download time) and boom, you're done.
[/ShamelessPlugForSlackware]
[ShamelessPlugForSlackware]
Patrick really does keep it clean and standard; having used command lines since DOS 2.0 and Applesoft BASIC, I've had no discomfort keeping my Slackware box up to date. It's pretty easy to configure once you remember that it uses the BSD style of rc files. In less than three hours (this includes the time to compile your kernel), you can have a Slackware system that runs just about as fast as Gentoo, without spending three days. Oh, and if you need GNOME (I need Evolution for work--MS Exchange Server), just install DropLine GNOME (another hour, depending on download time) and boom, you're done.
[/ShamelessPlugForSlackware]
I used Gentoo for about 1.5 years straight on the same install. Before that I spent maybe a year just installing, removing, and reinstalling Gentoo simply so I could get to learn the underpinnings. It was my first real experience with linux (other than Knoppix and Mandrake, each of which I spent maybe an hour with) and really made me into a power linux user. Gentoo is still my favorite distro, and any time I'm setting up a spare Linux Desktop or Server that I don't have to have up and running immediately (and has decent compiling power) I'll go with it.
That said, you are absolutely right about wanting to use your machine. My laptop (the machine I ran Gentoo on for a year and a half) is now running Kubuntu Edgy because I wanted a system close enough to the "bleeding-edge" that I got with Gentoo without nearly as much hassle. Thanks to all of my time with Gentoo, I am experienced enough that when X has failed on me (numerous times during my dapper -> edgy upgrade) I didn't flinch for a moment and knew exactly what I needed to look for in order to fix it.
Gentoo is a great learning system, and a wonderful system for getting an absolute performance beast on a customized system which will have specific uses. It will never, however, be the system to install if you want to have very few hassles on a given machine.
That said, you are absolutely right about wanting to use your machine. My laptop (the machine I ran Gentoo on for a year and a half) is now running Kubuntu Edgy because I wanted a system close enough to the "bleeding-edge" that I got with Gentoo without nearly as much hassle. Thanks to all of my time with Gentoo, I am experienced enough that when X has failed on me (numerous times during my dapper -> edgy upgrade) I didn't flinch for a moment and knew exactly what I needed to look for in order to fix it.
Gentoo is a great learning system, and a wonderful system for getting an absolute performance beast on a customized system which will have specific uses. It will never, however, be the system to install if you want to have very few hassles on a given machine.
Gentoo is far less configurable than it seems to be. I tested gentoo for a year and than reinstalled debian. That's right, debian.
I didn't want to build my own ebuild scripts for each and any package but otherwise you won't be able to configure your system through to its bones.
I noticed flags being used but not reported, flags being reported but not used, inconsistent system tools and weak dependency tracking. Oh, and those funny effects of install order being important but not being tracked.
Very cool to have a floating system...
cb
I didn't want to build my own ebuild scripts for each and any package but otherwise you won't be able to configure your system through to its bones.
I noticed flags being used but not reported, flags being reported but not used, inconsistent system tools and weak dependency tracking. Oh, and those funny effects of install order being important but not being tracked.
Very cool to have a floating system...
cb
Gentoo is far less configurable....then what? Then what you thought you could do with Gentoo or dreamed you could do with Gentoo? Or what Gentoo was intended to be?
Your own ebuild scripts? Really? I've been using Gentoo since 2000 and I've rarely had to build/write an ebuild script for anything that I couldn't just build from source normally anyhow.
Can you name these inconsistent system tools? Do you realize that some tools become deprecated and are usurped by newer, more appropriate tools?
Weak dependency tracking? As opposed to tracking everything so virulently that in order to have an X server and GUI, one also has to have Gnome, KDE, and Metacity installed?
What flags are not reported but are used? Is it being used by a Gentoo developer? Is it listed in the use.desc or use.local.desc files? Did some dufus of a linux-hack wannabe make up a flag?
So a flag is reported, but not used? That's a problem? You use every seat belt in your car? Or only when you have a person in each seat, thus a person needing the seat belt? Why throw in a use flag if you don't need it? Just because it's documented to exist?
Your own ebuild scripts? Really? I've been using Gentoo since 2000 and I've rarely had to build/write an ebuild script for anything that I couldn't just build from source normally anyhow.
Can you name these inconsistent system tools? Do you realize that some tools become deprecated and are usurped by newer, more appropriate tools?
Weak dependency tracking? As opposed to tracking everything so virulently that in order to have an X server and GUI, one also has to have Gnome, KDE, and Metacity installed?
What flags are not reported but are used? Is it being used by a Gentoo developer? Is it listed in the use.desc or use.local.desc files? Did some dufus of a linux-hack wannabe make up a flag?
So a flag is reported, but not used? That's a problem? You use every seat belt in your car? Or only when you have a person in each seat, thus a person needing the seat belt? Why throw in a use flag if you don't need it? Just because it's documented to exist?
Is this what Linux users are coming to...?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 20, 2006 04:23 AM
OMFG, I really hope the author is not considered a Linux "guru".
Can't configure X without the distro doing it for you...?
Can't recover your system using GRUB? (if it was using LILO, I could sympathize... a little)
I'm sorry, but this "review" only shows how inept the installer (not the software) is.
Can't configure X without the distro doing it for you...?
Can't recover your system using GRUB? (if it was using LILO, I could sympathize... a little)
I'm sorry, but this "review" only shows how inept the installer (not the software) is.
Not everybody's a hacker type that wants to, or even needs to, learn GCC compile-time flags. Gentoo is definitely for the knowledgeable GNU/Linux user, and that's the market/audience that it serves. For others, Ubuntu/Kubuntu or SuSE is perfect. Insulting people, like you just did, only shows why some people (admittedly, mostly Microsoft and Apple proponents) call us difficult to work with. Please don't give them more ammunition.
I have to agree with the orignal responce here, although I feel he could have come across a bit more polite.
I started with Mandrake, which I found to be uterally unusuable for my purposes -- it had WAY more bloat and crap that I was trying to get away from etc.
So, knowing practically nothing about linux, I decided to dive into Gentoo -- I had spare pentium 3 so there was no complex partitioning for dualboot and whatnot.
First install, although it took a while, I got right. But shortly after I managed to accidently mess up the partition table (don't ask how heh), so I decided, what-the-hey I'll just reinstall now that I have more of an idea whats going on.
Second install, uter failure.
Third install -- perfect. Absolutely beautiful, and still using the same one. That computer is one of my most reliable and easiest to work with. I've been using it for more than two years and I've been learned way more about linux and computers than I could have ever though possible from just browsing forums and whatnot.
Gentoo is by far my favorite distro, although it's a hassle to get going, it's a tank once you do.
And, if you don't update for 'EVERY' 'minor' update, it doesn't take forever each time. I find weekly updates are about the most time efficient, and I usually only update the kernel (because it requires a restart) every month or so.
And, I've found the gentoo community to be more than willing to help out someone with questions so long as they show they've done their part in looking for anwsers first (forums/manuals/etc).
Just my thoughts,
Nex
I started with Mandrake, which I found to be uterally unusuable for my purposes -- it had WAY more bloat and crap that I was trying to get away from etc.
So, knowing practically nothing about linux, I decided to dive into Gentoo -- I had spare pentium 3 so there was no complex partitioning for dualboot and whatnot.
First install, although it took a while, I got right. But shortly after I managed to accidently mess up the partition table (don't ask how heh), so I decided, what-the-hey I'll just reinstall now that I have more of an idea whats going on.
Second install, uter failure.
Third install -- perfect. Absolutely beautiful, and still using the same one. That computer is one of my most reliable and easiest to work with. I've been using it for more than two years and I've been learned way more about linux and computers than I could have ever though possible from just browsing forums and whatnot.
Gentoo is by far my favorite distro, although it's a hassle to get going, it's a tank once you do.
And, if you don't update for 'EVERY' 'minor' update, it doesn't take forever each time. I find weekly updates are about the most time efficient, and I usually only update the kernel (because it requires a restart) every month or so.
And, I've found the gentoo community to be more than willing to help out someone with questions so long as they show they've done their part in looking for anwsers first (forums/manuals/etc).
Just my thoughts,
Nex
Umm... I never said anything about learning GCC flags, or that Gentoo was a perfect distro, and I'm sure as hell not giving anti-Linux companies more ammunition.
My gripe is this article was supposed to be a review of the installation process by a person that can't even install the distro at hand. Wow. What a fscking concept. So instead of getting a complete review of the installation process with tips and caveats for new users, we instead get "OMG... it's soo hard. I couldn't even get it installed, and I had to go back to something easier".
Now, potential new users that could've been helped by this article are going to say "OMG... it was too hard for that Newsforge/Linux.com guy, it's going to be too hard for me".
Not to mention whining about things that shouldn't be whined about in the first place like compiling a distro from scratch. Get fscking real... it's going to take some time.
My gripe is this article was supposed to be a review of the installation process by a person that can't even install the distro at hand. Wow. What a fscking concept. So instead of getting a complete review of the installation process with tips and caveats for new users, we instead get "OMG... it's soo hard. I couldn't even get it installed, and I had to go back to something easier".
Now, potential new users that could've been helped by this article are going to say "OMG... it was too hard for that Newsforge/Linux.com guy, it's going to be too hard for me".
Not to mention whining about things that shouldn't be whined about in the first place like compiling a distro from scratch. Get fscking real... it's going to take some time.
Thanks for your feedback.
You're criticizing and you think LILO is hard?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 20, 2006 11:00 AM
Dude, if you didn't thoroughly understand LILO after three minutes with Werner's source code, you are not in any condition to criticise anyone else's dissatisfaction with Gentoo.
LILO is butt-simple. GRUB is needlessly complex, and should only be used by Windows refugees. If you don't agree, you simply don't understand the hardware you are using.
I absolutely agree with Joe's review of Gentoo. It's a great distro for certain purposes (for example, wannabe kernel coders should DEFINITELY install gentoo at least once) but it's not appropriate for 90% of the linux user base. It's great for me because I'm old enough to have started out compiling my OS from scratch and I'm comfortable with the process.
LILO is butt-simple. GRUB is needlessly complex, and should only be used by Windows refugees. If you don't agree, you simply don't understand the hardware you are using.
I absolutely agree with Joe's review of Gentoo. It's a great distro for certain purposes (for example, wannabe kernel coders should DEFINITELY install gentoo at least once) but it's not appropriate for 90% of the linux user base. It's great for me because I'm old enough to have started out compiling my OS from scratch and I'm comfortable with the process.
Re:You're criticizing and you think LILO is hard?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 20, 2006 09:03 PM
The point to be made is that the author didn't know how to pass the -s flag to the kernel with GRUB. That's a no brainer if you know what the -s flag does - even if you're not familiar with GRUB. Try passing -s to a kernel using lilo when your machine boots to a non functional Xorg by default...
Booting using the installation disc as a rescue disc is the first thing a linux newbie should learn. As a self-proclaimed veteran of many distros, the author should have known the basics of changing boot parameters and/or default runlevels using the installation cd.
Booting using the installation disc as a rescue disc is the first thing a linux newbie should learn. As a self-proclaimed veteran of many distros, the author should have known the basics of changing boot parameters and/or default runlevels using the installation cd.
Re:You're criticizing and you think LILO is hard?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 20, 2006 11:07 PM
I never said LILO is hard... I just said I'd be able to extend a *little* sympathy to the author. LILO is very simple to understand, but GRUB is a much better boot loader and just as easy to master. I don't have to re-install the boot loader every time I install a new kernel; it's more flexible in the case of problems as I can get a CLI and boot alternate kernels from alternate root devices. If you're holding on to LILO, you must enjoy running antiquated pieces of software with limited functionality.
As far as Gentoo, I never said it's appropriate for 90% of people, but the author is whining about things (and had to revert back to an "easier" distro) because of issues someone proficient in Linux would be able to correct. Granted, I'm not saying to cover it up, but if you're going to write an honest review of a distro, get someone who can at least fsking install it.
Whining about how long a source-based distro takes to install...? Buy faster hardware, install a binary distro, or STFU and wait.
As far as Gentoo, I never said it's appropriate for 90% of people, but the author is whining about things (and had to revert back to an "easier" distro) because of issues someone proficient in Linux would be able to correct. Granted, I'm not saying to cover it up, but if you're going to write an honest review of a distro, get someone who can at least fsking install it.
Whining about how long a source-based distro takes to install...? Buy faster hardware, install a binary distro, or STFU and wait.
Re:You're criticizing and you think LILO is hard?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on February 25, 2007 12:10 AM
oh yes let's bring up LILO and GRUB again. that makes you more mature than the original poster.
the point is he has a gripe, most of this review is spent crying about not being able to hack a gentoo install. Who the hell claimed that gentoo was as easy to install as windows? if you want something easy f'ing buy windows, or find something easy, I personally like gentoo how it is now, 100% my way.
It slaps me in the face if I do something stupid and I'm forced to learn something.
One of the biggest problems the linux community has out there are all the flipping zealots telling each other that their distro is the best.
Yeah, your distro is the best, for YOU. Tell people what's good about it and let them decide which is for them.
I'm not sure what good this review's going to do anyone. "Oh noes stay away from gentoo, scarey install." Are we advising against experimenting here. Heaven forbid anyone learn anything.
If you don't wanna use windows or a mac OS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and you don't have the desire to become a linux guru, get something w/ a simple installer such as SuSE (my first distro, easiest thing I ever installed, in fact I think it was almost as easy as windows)
Gentoo doesn't claim to be the easiest distro to install, it does claim to be one of the most customizable<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... to me that implies some complexity.
jeez
And from what I saw in the pictures, the install wasn't even following any I've ever seen in the handbook, I've not seen one that documents use of the LiveCD GUI install yet... basing our article on an unsupported install medium it seems.
the point is he has a gripe, most of this review is spent crying about not being able to hack a gentoo install. Who the hell claimed that gentoo was as easy to install as windows? if you want something easy f'ing buy windows, or find something easy, I personally like gentoo how it is now, 100% my way.
It slaps me in the face if I do something stupid and I'm forced to learn something.
One of the biggest problems the linux community has out there are all the flipping zealots telling each other that their distro is the best.
Yeah, your distro is the best, for YOU. Tell people what's good about it and let them decide which is for them.
I'm not sure what good this review's going to do anyone. "Oh noes stay away from gentoo, scarey install." Are we advising against experimenting here. Heaven forbid anyone learn anything.
If you don't wanna use windows or a mac OS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and you don't have the desire to become a linux guru, get something w/ a simple installer such as SuSE (my first distro, easiest thing I ever installed, in fact I think it was almost as easy as windows)
Gentoo doesn't claim to be the easiest distro to install, it does claim to be one of the most customizable<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... to me that implies some complexity.
jeez
And from what I saw in the pictures, the install wasn't even following any I've ever seen in the handbook, I've not seen one that documents use of the LiveCD GUI install yet... basing our article on an unsupported install medium it seems.
I do appreciate your comments about being a coder, and that you want your machine dedicated to making your life easier, and not to feeding the Operating System.
I do disagree with implication I perceived by that very last sentence: that Gentoo does not do that for you.
The truth of the matter is you spend a lot of time setting up the machine the way you like it, but once you have it set up, you should very rarely need to tweak anything in it: I find that what you spread out over time on other Operating Systems/Linux distributions is a lump sum payment with Gentoo.
And to reply to the person who made the comment about the amount of time spent compiling on Gentoo: you are being stupid if that is the only impression you take away from it.
That you choose to compile for every minor update is your prerogative. That you somehow make this seem a bad thing is foolish.
The great thing about Gentoo is that you are given the flexibility. In some cases it pays off, and in others it doesn't: I still prefer recompiling all of X, rather than updating (for example) a library, just because some arbitrary person decided that the library I am using is now "outdated", and forces me to update it to get the new package that I am trying to retrieve.
Maybe you don't run into that anymore, but I haven't run into that since I have started using Gentoo.
Which really does bring me back to the first point.
I do disagree with implication I perceived by that very last sentence: that Gentoo does not do that for you.
The truth of the matter is you spend a lot of time setting up the machine the way you like it, but once you have it set up, you should very rarely need to tweak anything in it: I find that what you spread out over time on other Operating Systems/Linux distributions is a lump sum payment with Gentoo.
And to reply to the person who made the comment about the amount of time spent compiling on Gentoo: you are being stupid if that is the only impression you take away from it.
That you choose to compile for every minor update is your prerogative. That you somehow make this seem a bad thing is foolish.
The great thing about Gentoo is that you are given the flexibility. In some cases it pays off, and in others it doesn't: I still prefer recompiling all of X, rather than updating (for example) a library, just because some arbitrary person decided that the library I am using is now "outdated", and forces me to update it to get the new package that I am trying to retrieve.
Maybe you don't run into that anymore, but I haven't run into that since I have started using Gentoo.
Which really does bring me back to the first point.
The words in the last paragraph of the article are my thoughts exactly!
Coincidentally, this is my first day running Kubuntu after using Gentoo for the last two years. I finally switched because like the article writer, I'm also lazy. Gentoo is a high-maintenance system and it can give you geeky satisfaction when you meddle with USE flags, compiler options and build your own, lean kernel. But it does get old after a while, compiling dozens of new packages whenever KDE comes with a new minor version and figuring out which packages in modular Xorg you need.
I'm not saying Gentoo is bad. In fact it's quite good in what it is trying to be, it's just not for everyone. I can recommend it to serious hobbyists who want to learn more about the inner works of Linux!
Coincidentally, this is my first day running Kubuntu after using Gentoo for the last two years. I finally switched because like the article writer, I'm also lazy. Gentoo is a high-maintenance system and it can give you geeky satisfaction when you meddle with USE flags, compiler options and build your own, lean kernel. But it does get old after a while, compiling dozens of new packages whenever KDE comes with a new minor version and figuring out which packages in modular Xorg you need.
I'm not saying Gentoo is bad. In fact it's quite good in what it is trying to be, it's just not for everyone. I can recommend it to serious hobbyists who want to learn more about the inner works of Linux!
Yet another [Gentoo] Linux is too hard to install
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 20, 2006 04:52 AM
Yet another "[Gentoo] Linux is too hard to install review", and it surely is very difficult to install. But I've been running Gentoo for many years, and it's by far the nicest distribution I've used for upgrading/updating packages. As other people have commented, compiling takes time, but how much is up to you. Sure you can upgrade every day if you want, but no one is forcing you to. I just upgraded my son's machine that had Gnome 2.08 on it. Currently Gnome is at 2.14, so it's been a long time since it was last updated. There were some minor issues, but I'd rather solve them than reinstall and reconfigure everything from scratch. On my own machine, I usually upgrade about once a month, with most of the compiles running overnight while I'm sleeping. Installing new packages is usually easy. I still remember "rpm hell" when trying to download new packages for Redhat/SuSE, and I much prefer Gentoo.
You can use Kororaa to install a Gentoo system. It is a curses installer and uses prebuild packages, automatically configures everything, etc. It gives you a pretty good base system in Gnome or KDE, x86 or AMD64. Maybe you should give it a try?
I am long time user of SMGL (another great distro) and my first (and only) Gentoo install took me 4 days. That included setting up everything down to XGL, themes, keyboard shortcuts and all the stuff I need to work. It was not too bad at all. Fact of the matter is that linux is not everyone, and Gentoo is for even smaller group of people. The way I see it is: if you cannot configure xorg without some helper app and if you do not read manual before doing stuff then your contribution to the Gentoo community would be none and people would just waste their time reading your bug reports. The fact that you did not manage to set this up is good for you and it is good for Gentoo.
is portage much more than just an option translator for the different build environments? Couldn't we replace the use flags by a standardized build system and standardized configure options?
> is portage much more than just an option translator for the different build environments?
No. It also deals with the dependencies of packages and it's a hard fight getting all of them deterministic to be able to implement proper reverse dependency support somewhat in the future. You can read here¹, why automagic dependencies suck. Installs happen in a sandboxed environment to save the user from wild running build scripts. And before the installed files get merged to the system, a check for files conflicting with other ones by already installed packages is done as well.
>Couldn't we replace the use flags by a standardized build system and standardized configure options?
The whole point of it is, that every user can choose the options he wants and has not to rely on "standardardized configure options" matching his requirements.
[1] <a href="http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/automagic.xml" title="gentoo.org">http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/automagic.xml</a gentoo.org>
No. It also deals with the dependencies of packages and it's a hard fight getting all of them deterministic to be able to implement proper reverse dependency support somewhat in the future. You can read here¹, why automagic dependencies suck. Installs happen in a sandboxed environment to save the user from wild running build scripts. And before the installed files get merged to the system, a check for files conflicting with other ones by already installed packages is done as well.
>Couldn't we replace the use flags by a standardized build system and standardized configure options?
The whole point of it is, that every user can choose the options he wants and has not to rely on "standardardized configure options" matching his requirements.
[1] <a href="http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/automagic.xml" title="gentoo.org">http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/automagic.xml</a gentoo.org>
I'm not a techie type person by any means. I didn't study it in school, and while I enjoy having a computer and messing about on it every once in a while I basically use it as a typewriter and jukebox.
That said I've been running gentoo since I discovered it which must be 3 years or maybe 4. I've had little issues every once in a while, but I've always been able to figure out how to fix them with minimal work.
I suppose it's not for everyone, but it's also not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be, and the best part is that once it's set up it's terrifically easy to manage. It also doesn't fill your computer with crap. That's why I like it I suppose -- it does what I want it to and nothing else, and it stays up to date.
You should've stopped and moved to Etch earlier. I would've recommended the moment that you said, "I left the default options." If you say that you are not a gentoo user, shouldn't be, and shouldn't bother writing about it.
s.
That said I've been running gentoo since I discovered it which must be 3 years or maybe 4. I've had little issues every once in a while, but I've always been able to figure out how to fix them with minimal work.
I suppose it's not for everyone, but it's also not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be, and the best part is that once it's set up it's terrifically easy to manage. It also doesn't fill your computer with crap. That's why I like it I suppose -- it does what I want it to and nothing else, and it stays up to date.
You should've stopped and moved to Etch earlier. I would've recommended the moment that you said, "I left the default options." If you say that you are not a gentoo user, shouldn't be, and shouldn't bother writing about it.
s.
Other than making for good war stories (my first installation was on an 450Mhz K6-2 with 128MB RAM... it took 3 days just to bootstrap the d*mn thing from a stage 1 install) the upside of the sometimes heinously painful installation is that by the time you have installed and tuned your system, you'll know more about it than you probably ever thought possible.
You simply have to learn it, and fortunately, you only have to do that once.
I've heard the Debbies joke about Gentoo users becoming 'instant experts' by watching garbage scroll across their screen for hours, but the simple truth remains that there is no substitute for knowledge and experience, regardless of the distribution. There is no debconf to make things easy and chances are good that you'll eventually get cut if you want to play with the bleeding edge packages, regardless of the distribution.
That is by no means a slam, just a statement. We've all been burned by 'stable' packages as well, and every package management system has its own unique way of handling things.
So what about all those cycles getting constantly chewed up as hours of our lives burn away waiting for package X, Y, and Z to install?
Exactly how intensive are your day to day tasks? Even running GNOME, Thunderbird, GAIM, Firefox, Rhythmbox, Eclipse, and urxvt with screen and ssh connections my CPU usage barely cracks 10% on P4 2.4Ghz w/ 796MB RAM - we're not exactly talking about a burly machine.
I'll agree that compiling _everything_ is a pain, but there are a few object lessons here.
1. Discretion.
Compilation, in fact, provides _more_ incentive to use our computers for things other than maintenance. I certainly don't want to recompile X or KDE for every trivial change that comes through either, and since nobody is actually _forcing_ me to do just that... well, the point should be clear by now.
If clock cycles are truly an issue even for critical maintenance you may not want to push a source based distribution to begin with. But, in case you do, there are several strategies to pushing the actual compilation to off-peak hours. Cron, anyone?
And for the record, wanton changes and upgrades will eventually doom _any_ system.
2. Binaries have problems too.
I actually moved away from binary package distributions because of having to deal with Someone Else's Binaries. At some point we have all had to hand compile a package due to a dependency, feature or availability issues, or have run across a binary that misbehaves or simply does not work.
Sure, not all binaries misbehave and Portage ebuilds can be just as broken at times, but there is a point that is reached when the benefits of a binary package management system are marginalized by the need to step outside of it for system maintenance. Why fight Apt or RPM when they do not fit my needs?
Gentoo is definitely not for everyone, but it is nice to hear that someone else gave it an honest effort. I won't try to tell you that your experience would have improved with time, but I can certainly attest to the fact that I spend just about as much time and effort performing simple maintenance on my car as I do with my Gentoo box.
Besides, the installation is a trial by fire... and since when have the first steps to anything great ever been easy?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
You simply have to learn it, and fortunately, you only have to do that once.
I've heard the Debbies joke about Gentoo users becoming 'instant experts' by watching garbage scroll across their screen for hours, but the simple truth remains that there is no substitute for knowledge and experience, regardless of the distribution. There is no debconf to make things easy and chances are good that you'll eventually get cut if you want to play with the bleeding edge packages, regardless of the distribution.
That is by no means a slam, just a statement. We've all been burned by 'stable' packages as well, and every package management system has its own unique way of handling things.
So what about all those cycles getting constantly chewed up as hours of our lives burn away waiting for package X, Y, and Z to install?
Exactly how intensive are your day to day tasks? Even running GNOME, Thunderbird, GAIM, Firefox, Rhythmbox, Eclipse, and urxvt with screen and ssh connections my CPU usage barely cracks 10% on P4 2.4Ghz w/ 796MB RAM - we're not exactly talking about a burly machine.
I'll agree that compiling _everything_ is a pain, but there are a few object lessons here.
1. Discretion.
Compilation, in fact, provides _more_ incentive to use our computers for things other than maintenance. I certainly don't want to recompile X or KDE for every trivial change that comes through either, and since nobody is actually _forcing_ me to do just that... well, the point should be clear by now.
If clock cycles are truly an issue even for critical maintenance you may not want to push a source based distribution to begin with. But, in case you do, there are several strategies to pushing the actual compilation to off-peak hours. Cron, anyone?
And for the record, wanton changes and upgrades will eventually doom _any_ system.
2. Binaries have problems too.
I actually moved away from binary package distributions because of having to deal with Someone Else's Binaries. At some point we have all had to hand compile a package due to a dependency, feature or availability issues, or have run across a binary that misbehaves or simply does not work.
Sure, not all binaries misbehave and Portage ebuilds can be just as broken at times, but there is a point that is reached when the benefits of a binary package management system are marginalized by the need to step outside of it for system maintenance. Why fight Apt or RPM when they do not fit my needs?
Gentoo is definitely not for everyone, but it is nice to hear that someone else gave it an honest effort. I won't try to tell you that your experience would have improved with time, but I can certainly attest to the fact that I spend just about as much time and effort performing simple maintenance on my car as I do with my Gentoo box.
Besides, the installation is a trial by fire... and since when have the first steps to anything great ever been easy?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
I don't think good articles spent lots of time saying what the author knows and think. The idea is to be fair, and not just to say: it's hard, it's not for me. I'm a technical writer, and even not using Gentoo, I use Slackware, I think Gentoo is one of the best distros I've ever used.
I meant, the last "as good programmer Im lazy", I don't agree, because using Gentoo you're going to learn a lot, even more than writing articles as I do. Even, Gentoo has an amazing community, by far the biggest, the strongest and the more complete. See the forum, the Wiki and still counting.
I think would be nice if you also tell the people the good sides of Gentoo. Even, Gentoo is by far more than the couple of hours to install. In fact, you are able to use packages semi-compiled, and then install packages it's easy. Install X and a few things, then emerge works very fast.
I don't like the title, because it show the bad side, why don't you tell "The amazing gentoo community helps me everyday, but the distro is not for me".
I meant, the last "as good programmer Im lazy", I don't agree, because using Gentoo you're going to learn a lot, even more than writing articles as I do. Even, Gentoo has an amazing community, by far the biggest, the strongest and the more complete. See the forum, the Wiki and still counting.
I think would be nice if you also tell the people the good sides of Gentoo. Even, Gentoo is by far more than the couple of hours to install. In fact, you are able to use packages semi-compiled, and then install packages it's easy. Install X and a few things, then emerge works very fast.
I don't like the title, because it show the bad side, why don't you tell "The amazing gentoo community helps me everyday, but the distro is not for me".
"I called a halt to the great migration and admitted to myself that I was simply not good Gentoo material."
I'd rather hear that conclusion than "G3n2 suX0rz!!111!!1 LOL" any day.
The author's assessment of the Gentoo community was quite fair, but we can't really escape the ugly truth is that the installation really is a b*tch until you've done it a few times.
Gentoo probably is the best example of "set and forget" of any distribution, but you do have to get there first.
I'd rather hear that conclusion than "G3n2 suX0rz!!111!!1 LOL" any day.
The author's assessment of the Gentoo community was quite fair, but we can't really escape the ugly truth is that the installation really is a b*tch until you've done it a few times.
Gentoo probably is the best example of "set and forget" of any distribution, but you do have to get there first.
People say Gentoo is good because it has good performance. Compiling packages yourself isn't likely to give a significant increase in performance.
But it takes hell lot of a long time waiting for it to compile. And it Gentoo is overly complex, with CFLAGS and all kinds of strange stuff.
An operating system should install in less than 40 minutes.
But it takes hell lot of a long time waiting for it to compile. And it Gentoo is overly complex, with CFLAGS and all kinds of strange stuff.
An operating system should install in less than 40 minutes.
I ran Gentoo for about a year, and some things were faster, some weren't. Of course it can all depend on what flags you set, how customized your kernel is, etc, etc... However, the amount of time required to compile things when a new version of a large package (such as Xorg, OpenOffice, or Mozilla) came out, just didn't make it worth it to me. Lots of Gentoo users will say "but you can get those large packages in binary form", but if I'm getting it in binary form anyway, why stick with a source distribution. Switched to Ubuntu with Debian's apt-get, which is just as nice a package manager as Portage, and never looked back. Gentoo was great for learning linux, but it's a compilation nightmare to stick with it.
No, gentoo is great because I can muck about with the internals to my hearts content.
If you dont want to, fine stick with windows where everything "just works" with no tweaking required.
Personally, I like tweaking.
If you dont want to, fine stick with windows where everything "just works" with no tweaking required.
Personally, I like tweaking.
The PDP-11s I used for testing thermonuclear weapon delivery systems required 16 hours to sysgen - and you pretty much had to sit in front of the console the whole time, because you never knew when it would suddenly halt and ask you a question like "what cluster size do you want for the MFD (recursive root directory)?".
"An operating system should install in less than 40 minutes." Pffth. Yeah, and I should have fifty beautiful supermodels waiting in my bedroom right now. An operating system should install in however long it takes to do the job right given the purposes for which the system is intended. An you should allocate that time appropriately. Get a grip.
"An operating system should install in less than 40 minutes." Pffth. Yeah, and I should have fifty beautiful supermodels waiting in my bedroom right now. An operating system should install in however long it takes to do the job right given the purposes for which the system is intended. An you should allocate that time appropriately. Get a grip.
Based purely on what the article says, it seems your install failed because you did not follow the instructions. Start off with unstable? Used the wrong CD?
I installed Gentoo a couple years ago when I had played with some RPM distros for about a year. I had almost never used the command line, never compiled a kernel, and chroot, what the hell was that?
Never the less, I wanted to give Gentoo a whirl. I read the manual, followed the instructions, and although it took awhile, Gentoo installed just fine. I only installed it once, that is all that is necessary.
I am nowhere near a guru, though I have learned a lot over two years. Now I spend very little time administering the system. With knowledge comes power. My system is fast, flexible, and easily upgraded. I don't know an awful lot, but I can follow instructions, use google, and check out the gentoo forums.
I installed Gentoo a couple years ago when I had played with some RPM distros for about a year. I had almost never used the command line, never compiled a kernel, and chroot, what the hell was that?
Never the less, I wanted to give Gentoo a whirl. I read the manual, followed the instructions, and although it took awhile, Gentoo installed just fine. I only installed it once, that is all that is necessary.
I am nowhere near a guru, though I have learned a lot over two years. Now I spend very little time administering the system. With knowledge comes power. My system is fast, flexible, and easily upgraded. I don't know an awful lot, but I can follow instructions, use google, and check out the gentoo forums.
My thoughts exactly. I had that problem when my brother was 'trying' to install gentoo. He'd say "What do I do now?" and I'd say, what does the installation guide tell you to do? After 3 days of telling him to read the installation instructions, I took the wheel and the installation was finished within a matter of hours.
Now, with th
Now, with th
Not For Everyone
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on September 20, 2006 12:26 AMI learned more in five months of running Gentoo than I learned in five years of running Red Hat/Suse/Mandrake.
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