Nov 27 11:03:21 Welcome to the Microsoft/Novell QA Session! Nov 27 11:03:26 This meeting is meant to discuss the Microsoft/Novell Collaboration. Nov 27 11:03:32 We will try to answer as many questions as we can for round about one hour. Nov 27 11:03:39 After that we will try to answer all question that got posted in the wiki. Nov 27 11:03:46 Some technicalities: Nov 27 11:03:54 This channel is moderated during the time of the session. Nov 27 11:03:59 But it has +z set so the operators (but nobody else) can see what youre writing. Nov 27 11:04:05 So if you have a question or remark just write it. Nov 27 11:04:09 * AJaeger (i=aj@nat/suse/x-3ac39fa8631811bf) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:04:12 The moderator then will give you a voice and you can repeat your question for everyone. Nov 27 11:04:16 * laurik_ has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:04:27 * laurik_ (n=lauri@84-50-241-14-dsl.noe.estpak.ee) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:04:33 ok lets go :) Nov 27 11:04:42 first question please? Nov 27 11:04:58 * Beineri (n=Beineri@pD9E20C5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:05:08 * henne gives voice to AJaeger Nov 27 11:05:19 * henne gives voice to aka_druid_ Nov 27 11:05:19 at least 100% of the fellows in suse Ive asked Nov 27 11:05:27 aka_druid_: please repeat Nov 27 11:05:33 * mulligan` (n=user@e178031090.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:05:39 my question is: why nobody in suse fomr technical staff was aware of the deal? Nov 27 11:06:05 I mean, most people we talk from opensuse devel werent aware til the very last moment Nov 27 11:06:06 * dead_rose (n=iustinia@86.104.115.42) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:06:11 thats all, thx Nov 27 11:06:13 * tackat (n=tackat@pd95b5caa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:06:17 aka_druid: I was planned to get briefed on the tuesday before but was flying at that time. Nov 27 11:06:22 * Neow_Ikkin has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:06:33 aka_druid: A couple of others were briefed - and I was briefed finally a few hours before. Nov 27 11:06:43 Just to add something to AJ's answer Nov 27 11:06:51 I was aware of discussions with Microsoft for a number of months Nov 27 11:07:01 * egli (n=egli@217-162-69-73.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:07:01 Will there be any change to the agreements between MS and Novell as a result of the uproar they have caused? Nov 27 11:07:02 Big companies are often talking to each other, though, and I didn't know if this conversation would go anywhere Nov 27 11:07:04 AJaeger: that meaning nobody from technical ahd anything to do, to add to elaborate about the deal? They didnt help constructing it? Nov 27 11:07:11 * rindolf (n=shlomi@bzq-82-81-118-40.red.bezeqint.net) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:07:16 * pzb (n=pzb@gw-ott1.byward.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:07:18 only got a notice from suits "hey we did this" Nov 27 11:07:48 * AZB has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 11:07:55 There weren't technical people in the meetings in Redmond negotiation it, but we were asked for our input and made aware of the deal. And a bunch of people were told a week or so before the deal was announced. Nov 27 11:08:00 negotiating* Nov 27 11:08:02 * _alexander (n=alexande@p5082C848.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:08:09 * princezna (n=princezn@82.100.44.69) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:08:32 In general for huge deals like this, you try to keep the number of people involved low or suddenly the whole industry is talking about it, so I'm not surprised that there was an open discussion on a maliing list about this :-) Nov 27 11:08:33 * davjam (n=davjam@83.104.239.129) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:08:36 * Pa^2 (n=Papa@63.238.104.170) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:08:51 aka_druid_: does that answer your question? Nov 27 11:08:55 * yonaton (n=kvirc@216.64.14.163) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:08:56 ok, so next question heh Nov 27 11:08:58 henne: ya Nov 27 11:09:02 * darix removes voice from aka_druid_ Nov 27 11:09:20 * henne gives voice to Tassoman Nov 27 11:09:25 Tassoman: please repeat Nov 27 11:09:35 * xyzz (n=xyzz@147.175.55.175) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:09:37 OK thanks, and hi to all: Did you enjoyed Shuttleworks openletter? Nov 27 11:09:44 * [daemon] (i=mmichna@nat/suse/x-c951b8a4da42cde1) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:09:49 * lewing (n=lewing@cpe-66-68-133-145.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:09:52 Tassoman: No, I didn't. Nov 27 11:10:06 Tassoman: you should have seen my reply or my blog entry. Nov 27 11:10:26 Tassoman: I understand that he does not agree with the deal but this was one step to far IMO. Nov 27 11:10:27 * _alexander (n=alexande@p5082C848.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:10:32 * uranellus (n=alexande@p5082C848.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:10:46 * AZB (n=JLF@ncecc2.ford.com) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:10:51 Tassoman: does that answer your question? Nov 27 11:11:08 Sorry but I didn't read the blog. Nov 27 11:11:23 BTW, I thinks it answered my question Nov 27 11:11:28 thanks Nov 27 11:11:31 * darix removes voice from Tassoman Nov 27 11:11:32 * kkemenczy (n=kkemencz@62-77-229-162.static.invitel.hu) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:11:38 Tassoman: http://www.novell.com/coolblogs/?p=648 Nov 27 11:11:43 * henne gives voice to tolyluis Nov 27 11:11:43 * jothal (n=chatzill@dqt56.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:11:52 tolyluis: please repeat Nov 27 11:11:52 * rizox (n=rizox@87.218.72.10) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:12:04 what do you think about FSF's announcements about GPLv3? Sorr for my poor english Nov 27 11:12:23 * riazraham (n=kvirc@dialpool-210-214-44-204.maa.sify.net) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:12:26 Well, the GPL3 process has been underway since the beginning of this year. Nov 27 11:12:33 * RoadKillyt (n=unknown@c-68-54-149-92.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:12:49 The FSF and Eben Moglen and the Software Freedom Law Center put together a process with four separate committees to discuss what needs to be in GPLv3 Nov 27 11:12:56 Committees A, B, C and D Nov 27 11:13:07 A is big open source projects, B is big companies, C is users and smaller companies, and D is individuals and "other" Nov 27 11:13:13 So A includes, for example Samba Nov 27 11:13:36 Novell has representatives in both committtees A and B, and we have been talking to Eben about the FSF about the GPLv3 for a long time Nov 27 11:13:46 * sabdfl (n=sabdfl@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:13:47 we're glad that they committed to making the writing of GPLv3 an open process Nov 27 11:13:56 We think it's better if the GPLv3 is accepted by lots of companies and individuals and projects Nov 27 11:14:11 Lately Eben and Richard and others have made some statements that they will "invalidate" the Novell/MS deal with GPLv3 Nov 27 11:14:24 We're not exactly sure what they mean by that, because so far these are just vague statements Nov 27 11:14:35 We'll be interested in seeing the wording they are proposing for GPLv3 Nov 27 11:15:06 * p34 (n=kapde3@peorth.xs4all.nl) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:15:17 We're glad they're talking about GPLv3, also, because it means that they don't think there are any incompatiblities between GPLv2 and the covenants issued by Novell and Microsoft. We invited Eben to our offices in Waltham and he read the entire Microsoft/Novell agreement Nov 27 11:15:19 * twirl (n=dark@host-84-9-169-71.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:15:30 * cboltz has quit (Excess Flood) Nov 27 11:15:31 and if you want to understand what are the promises that Microsoft has made to Novell customers, you can read those on microsoft.com/interop Nov 27 11:15:37 Does that answer your quesiton? Nov 27 11:15:39 * benJIman_ (n=bw@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:15:39 question* Nov 27 11:15:49 yes thanks Nov 27 11:15:52 * jervine (n=jon@193.128.128.29) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:15:53 * darix removes voice from tolyluis Nov 27 11:15:57 Sure :-) Nov 27 11:16:07 * henne gives voice to JBarr-OSTG Nov 27 11:16:11 JBarr-OSTG: please repeat Nov 27 11:16:27 Will any changes be made to the MS/Novell agreements because of the uproar about them? Nov 27 11:16:28 * benJIman has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) Nov 27 11:16:50 Well there's definitely one thing that we've asked Microsoft to look at Nov 27 11:17:07 During the discussion with them we asked Microsoft to make a promise not to sue individual developers, ever, for patent infringement Nov 27 11:17:12 * benJIman_ (n=bw@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:17:21 * Bille (n=will@p54945687.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:17:22 And we were pleasantly surprised that they were very open to doing this Nov 27 11:17:29 * benJIman (n=bw@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:17:34 The "individual non-commercial" covenant that you can find on their web site is the result of that discussion Nov 27 11:17:36 * jbl (i=jblunck@nat/suse/x-b2d2a5f608a36531) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:17:40 Personally I think it falls very short of the mark Nov 27 11:17:45 I don't think it covers enough people Nov 27 11:17:54 or enough activities Nov 27 11:18:07 I think it's a big step that MS is going out there and saying "we're not going to sue individuals" Nov 27 11:18:11 and they're saying this in a legally binding way Nov 27 11:18:15 * mchroust (n=chatzill@p57A30C0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:18:19 some people have said "MS was never going to sue individuals" Nov 27 11:18:22 but just look at the RIAA in the US Nov 27 11:18:30 which is suing 15 year olds and 95 year old grandmas on a regular basis these days Nov 27 11:18:39 So we're glad MS started from that sentiment Nov 27 11:18:48 * Neow_Ikkin (n=edward@80.178.175.76.adsl.012.net.il) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:18:49 but the execution stinks so far, and we've asked them to update that covenant Nov 27 11:19:00 and they are working on it. they're going to send us a draft this week Nov 27 11:19:14 * _tx (n=tx@nc-76-0-133-198.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:19:18 you even have one MS employee, Jason Matusow, asking for public comment about these covenants on his blog Nov 27 11:19:34 So that's one area of the agreement that we have asked MS to change Nov 27 11:19:52 question answered? Nov 27 11:19:52 JBarr-OSTG: answered? Nov 27 11:19:56 yes, thanks Nov 27 11:20:01 * darix removes voice from JBarr-OSTG Nov 27 11:20:12 * henne gives voice to corbet Nov 27 11:20:16 corbet: please go ahead Nov 27 11:20:19 * whiteley (i=bart@nat/novell/x-f66079e2e599aac7) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:20:19 Here's the URL from Jason: http://blogs.msdn.com/jasonmatusow/archive/2006/11/11/your-input-requested.aspx Nov 27 11:20:23 Novell claims to have not acknowledged any patent infringements Nov 27 11:20:23 by Linux. But Novell is now paying a tax to Microsoft on the Nov 27 11:20:23 Linux distributions it ships. What, exactly, is Novell paying Nov 27 11:20:23 for? Nov 27 11:20:43 * jniq (n=jkupec@styx.suse.cz) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:21:05 We're paying for the promise that Microsoft made to our customers not to sue them Nov 27 11:21:43 Not to sue them for *what*? For problems you don't acknowledge exist? Nov 27 11:21:57 Well, we put together an agreement with MS to make Linux and Windows work better together Nov 27 11:22:03 * zippy (n=zero@xdslg239.osnanet.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:22:05 Now, as everyone knows, MS has spent the last 10 years saying negative things about Linux Nov 27 11:22:11 including implying that there are IP issues in Linux Nov 27 11:22:30 It didn't make sense for us to do a partnersihp with MS on interoperability issues and still have this patent cloud hanging around for our customers Nov 27 11:22:36 * lmb (i=lmb@1.0.0.127.in-addr.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:22:39 and so MS asked us to put together a patent agreement as well. Nov 27 11:23:00 And so, we promise MS's customers that we won't sue them and they promise the same thing to our customres Nov 27 11:23:08 They pay us for our promise and we pay them for their promise Nov 27 11:23:24 It doesn't matter if the allegations from MSFT are true or not Nov 27 11:23:35 * _massi_ (n=_massi_@151.83.9.115) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:23:37 People can sue each other anyway, and a patent lawsuit is very expensive to defend against Nov 27 11:23:56 * PsYForCe (n=Miranda@p57B4F2B9.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:24:14 corbet: does that answer your q.? Nov 27 11:24:19 Almost... Nov 27 11:24:24 * Stephano_ (n=Stephano@pool-01ac1.externet.hu) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:24:34 that means? Nov 27 11:24:38 How did you come up with the value for the "promise" that Microsoft made? Nov 27 11:24:45 I have no idea how they did that Nov 27 11:24:51 * _tx (n=tx@nc-76-0-133-198.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has left #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:24:56 That's above my pay grade :-) Nov 27 11:25:13 In general when it comes to patent questions Nov 27 11:25:15 you look at two things Nov 27 11:25:20 1. The patents that the patent holder has Nov 27 11:25:26 * cboltz (n=cboltz@88.134.58.13) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:25:32 2. The business over the person who wants patent protection or coverage Nov 27 11:25:34 * Pitel (n=pitel@ip-89-102-30-100.karneval.cz) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:25:40 And the dollar amount is usually a function of these two values Nov 27 11:25:46 So for example, you might only hold one patent Nov 27 11:26:04 * flipz (n=phillips@207.47.98.129.static.nextweb.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:26:09 but if you sue company X for infringing your one patent, and company X makes $1 billion/year in revenue based on their product that infringes your patent Nov 27 11:26:18 then even though you only have one patent, you can extract a lot of money from company X Nov 27 11:26:18 * [sasquatch] (n=jon@fedora/sasquatch) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:26:36 So I'm guessing the team that put together the deal considered both the MS and the Novell revenue Nov 27 11:26:43 You notice that the balance of payments is heavily in NOvell's favor Nov 27 11:26:52 I.e. MS are giving us much, much more money than we are giving them Nov 27 11:27:08 So how was part (1) done here? Which patents were looked at? That's what I've been driving at here... Nov 27 11:27:12 Novell has a few hundred patents, and MS has thousands. So you can guess that the quality of the patents and the revenue streams of both companies were considered Nov 27 11:27:48 corbet: I'm just talking in general about patents and money, not talking about how the MS/Novell deal was constructed Nov 27 11:27:55 corbet: Nat just said. he wasnt involved in that process Nov 27 11:27:58 * _tx (n=tx@nc-76-0-133-198.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:27:58 corbet: again, I'm not sure how they came up with those numbers Nov 27 11:28:07 I wasn't involved in that Nov 27 11:28:12 okay to be fair the next question Nov 27 11:28:16 OK, well, thanks, I'll step aside now. Nov 27 11:28:23 * darix removes voice from corbet Nov 27 11:28:33 * henne gives voice to suka Nov 27 11:28:33 * Murdock2K (n=jamiro@host-84-222-90-107.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:28:38 suka: please go ahead Nov 27 11:28:39 Most of the Novell engineers were suspiciously quiet about the deal with MS, so would you say it is fair to interpret this as a sign of silently not-agreeing with it? Or asked more directly: Do you think this was the right thing to do? Nov 27 11:29:02 * wajasu has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 11:29:53 * thudfoo (n=dw@0-1pool154-228.nas10.spokane1.wa.us.da.qwest.net) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:30:04 * deryck (n=deryck@24.181.123.236) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:30:08 I wanted to say something directly - and was on the IRC channel afterwards. Nov 27 11:30:12 * lieschen (n=lieschen@lisa.JS.Jura.Uni-Goettingen.de) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:30:34 I listened to the webcast and started writing my blog - and went to bed. Nov 27 11:30:36 * [daemon] has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:30:51 * coffeedude (n=jerry@71-12-97-181.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:30:57 next morning the MS Covenants were out and confused me - and I guess a lot of others. So, we had some internal discussions.. Nov 27 11:31:18 I think people have overreacted to this deal Nov 27 11:31:26 I guess because it involves the words "Microsoft" and "patents" Nov 27 11:31:51 I think a few major things happened here Nov 27 11:32:03 1. Novell got Microsoft to acknowledge that Linux is an important part of IT, and that customers need it. Nov 27 11:32:07 This is a huge step forward from where things were before. Nov 27 11:32:16 Compare this to "Linux is a cancer" from not that long ago. Nov 27 11:32:26 2. Novell cut a good business deal for itself. Nov 27 11:32:40 Novell gets a lot of revenue out of this, and we'll be able to invest some of that in engineering, in openSUSE, in making Linux great. Nov 27 11:32:46 3. Windows/Linux interoperability will improve. Nov 27 11:33:01 We're going to write new virtualization code, new Open XML code, and release it all as open source. Nov 27 11:33:12 * _8086 (n=lkundrak@147.175.55.175) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:33:15 We contribute heavily to open source already, but now we can do more Nov 27 11:33:27 Now, to address people's concerns Nov 27 11:33:30 4. This deal does not take anything away from anyone Nov 27 11:33:41 Microsoft promising not to sue Novell's customers does not mean that they are promising TO sue anyone else Nov 27 11:33:56 I know people like to look at the "negative space" on this because everyone implicitly thinks Microsoft are legal geniuses and can't be trusted Nov 27 11:34:01 But the fact is, nothing has been taken away Nov 27 11:34:07 No useful legal precedent has been created. Nov 27 11:34:28 A judge will never look at this deal and say "Okay, your patents are all infringed by Linux ,Mr. Ballmer" Nov 27 11:34:42 So I think all the cries that Novell has hurt the community are simply not true Nov 27 11:34:48 5. This deal does not violate GPLv2. Nov 27 11:34:55 * lkundrak (i=lkundrak@nat/redhat/x-80b8b6941831092d) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:35:05 Eben Moglen read our agreement and hasn't said a thing about GPLv2 violation. It's abundantly clear that he doesn't think there is any. Nov 27 11:35:30 Instead, he and Richard are using the community energy to try to get people to adopt the previously-controversial GPLv3 (which we support also) Nov 27 11:35:49 6. Ballmer has been FUDding Linux o nIP issues for years Nov 27 11:35:54 This deal didn't change anything on that front, obviously. Nov 27 11:35:56 * sphinx (n=jan@i59F56F5D.versanet.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:35:57 * cboltz has quit (Excess Flood) Nov 27 11:36:09 Ron (our CEO) published a nice letter the other day contradicting Ballmer's statements. Nov 27 11:36:22 So, net-net, MS acknowledges Linux, we improve interop, Novell gets more money into Linux Nov 27 11:36:33 And nothing is lost from a legal perspective. Nov 27 11:36:37 People say "you're dividing the community!" Nov 27 11:36:43 * ajlewis (n=aj@v-209-98-139-62.mn.visi.com) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:36:50 * jmcd (n=jmcd@cpe-24-93-146-206.maine.res.rr.com) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:36:59 But I think the people who make too much of this, who shun Novell, are the ones dividing the community. Nov 27 11:37:00 did this answer the question? Nov 27 11:37:02 Okay Nov 27 11:37:03 I'md one :-) Nov 27 11:37:04 Nearly. Nat: You were talking about re-investing the money in openSUSE: Something to back that up? What will we get? More paid engineers? Nov 27 11:37:13 * ohin (i=opera@a02-0702a.kn.vutbr.cz) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:37:15 suka: "Stay tuned." I hope so :-) Nov 27 11:37:20 suka: more buildservice engineers!:) Nov 27 11:37:20 * kblin (n=inowhere@89.110.146.255) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:37:21 * metze (n=metze@ip-217-172-181-76.mx-netz.de) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:37:26 Ok, thanks :) Nov 27 11:37:27 i've heard so Nov 27 11:37:32 * AJaeger fears that it won't mean higher salaries ;-) Nov 27 11:37:37 ok next question Nov 27 11:37:41 * darix removes voice from suka Nov 27 11:37:50 * henne gives voice to bgerber Nov 27 11:37:56 bgerber: please go ahead Nov 27 11:37:56 * _tx (n=tx@nc-76-0-133-198.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has left #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:38:00 * spectrum1 (n=spectrum@cl-lnx-sprinc-srch.blue4.cz) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:38:11 What is Novells stance on GPLv3? Will it be used by Novell? Nov 27 11:38:20 GPLv3 doesn't exist yet Nov 27 11:38:23 we haven't seen a near-final draft yet Nov 27 11:38:25 So it's hard to say. Nov 27 11:38:25 * jmp (n=jmp@belial.dead.li) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:38:47 You are still making changes so Novell is able to use it? Nov 27 11:38:48 * hanni (n=olaf@149.230.239.198) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:38:48 Some projects will adopt it, and some of those are really critical to what we do -- glibc for example. Nov 27 11:38:59 * gd (n=gd@hhrm.de) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:39:11 What about Novell sponsdered project? Nov 27 11:39:18 We are very happy with GPLv2 and it looks like hte kernel will probably stick with that. Nov 27 11:39:36 bgerber: The license we use depends on what we're trying to accomplish Nov 27 11:39:42 We have some X11 licensed code, for example the Mono class libraries. Nov 27 11:39:44 X Nov 27 11:39:45 etc Nov 27 11:39:53 bgerber: the reasons why GPLv3 is not liked for Novell is also valid for other companies. So, in the current state it would not be used by a large number of companies atm, I fear Nov 27 11:40:02 That's a good point adrian Nov 27 11:40:06 * egli has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:40:13 * Neow_Ikkin has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:40:13 Also one thing to consider is indemnification being offered by other companies Nov 27 11:40:17 yes I agree I dislike the DRM Nov 27 11:40:21 bgerber: youre sitting in a room with AJaeger. who works heavily in the glibc steering comitee. so novell sponsored... Nov 27 11:40:23 So for example, Red Hat and Oracle both claim to offer patent indemnification to their customers Nov 27 11:40:44 So if you are customer A, and you buy Linux from one of those companies, they promise to step in and protect you from any patent lawsuits Nov 27 11:40:51 But that promise is only for their customers Nov 27 11:41:06 so if you make a copy of the software and give it to customer B, who did not pay Red Hat or Oracle, the promise does not extend to customer B Nov 27 11:41:23 this is extremely similar in concept and in form to the promise MS is making to Novell's customers Nov 27 11:41:23 * jlayton (i=jlayton@nat/redhat/x-3b00581ccdf78c4a) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:41:36 * pyxel (n=pyxel@cl-160.bru-01.be.sixxs.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:41:36 * anhill (n=anhill@hillhome.org) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:41:43 So my guess is that GPLv3 will need to be compatible with the existing business practices of all those Linux companies Nov 27 11:41:47 (HP offers that too I believe) Nov 27 11:41:57 I understand that. I insist my clients buy, what is needed from Novell for their business needs Nov 27 11:42:09 :) Nov 27 11:42:13 Thanks for that! Nov 27 11:42:19 bgerber: question answered? Nov 27 11:42:23 yes Nov 27 11:42:30 ok next one Nov 27 11:42:34 * henne gives voice to tonz Nov 27 11:42:40 are there any benefits for the whole open source community from this deal? Nov 27 11:42:56 A few Nov 27 11:43:05 We are collaborating with Microsoft on a few different interop areas Nov 27 11:43:08 * thudfoo has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:43:14 * _8086 (n=lkundrak@147.175.55.175) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:43:27 We'll be adding Open XML support to OpenOffice, building a virtualization shim to run SLES optimized on Veridian and Vista on Xen Nov 27 11:43:44 We'll also be working together on WS-Management Nov 27 11:43:46 All this code will be released open source Nov 27 11:43:47 * cboltz (n=cboltz@88.134.58.13) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:43:51 so everyone gets that, and can benefit from it Nov 27 11:44:33 (By the way, in that process, we don't plan to add MS-patented code to our contributions) Nov 27 11:44:42 (Our policy on that is unchanged -- and MS didn't give us the right to do that anyway!) Nov 27 11:45:04 tonz: answered? Nov 27 11:45:06 * CruX| (n=CruX@soueza.utc.sk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:45:12 yes, thanks Nov 27 11:45:14 Also I think it's good that MS acknowledges Linux Nov 27 11:45:21 * darix removes voice from tonz Nov 27 11:45:28 * henne gives voice to the_dude Nov 27 11:45:31 and we want that individual covenant from MS to be better, so that all the hackers of the world know for certain that they won't be sued Nov 27 11:45:34 the_dude: your turn Nov 27 11:45:41 * ambi_ (i=ambi@nat/ibm/x-41d084351a365f56) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:45:57 ok, i think this agreement creates a perception that novell/suse is moving away from the opensource communitiy, what will novell do to keep users from migrating away to other distributio Nov 27 11:45:57 ns Nov 27 11:46:04 * henne kicks the_dude Nov 27 11:46:13 fine Nov 27 11:46:17 ;) Nov 27 11:46:31 We're not moving away from open source at all! Nov 27 11:46:36 i did not say that Nov 27 11:46:44 Okay :-) But we have to remind everyone of that Nov 27 11:46:57 I think there are a lot of misunderstandings out there Nov 27 11:47:01 and we need to clear those up Nov 27 11:47:04 like we're doing here Nov 27 11:47:05 * BaT_ (n=chatzill@dsl5402A5BC.pool.t-online.hu) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:47:05 * ambi_ (i=ambi@nat/ibm/x-41d084351a365f56) has left #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:47:08 * cb400f has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 11:47:10 * cstoica (n=chatzill@195.212.88.30) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:47:27 also, I think people choose Linux distributions because they're good, because they work well. we're going to keep working hard to make SUSE the best Linux distribution on the planet :-) Nov 27 11:47:28 all i know is how my peers talk about it Nov 27 11:47:33 * n (n=niv@c-67-171-181-157.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:47:43 and the talk is in general not postive Nov 27 11:48:01 the_dude: sure. but you can also try to clear up the missunderstandings. :) Nov 27 11:48:04 the_dude: Do you have any ideas on how to change their mood? Nov 27 11:48:13 Yeah, we're open to ideas on this one Nov 27 11:48:18 hmmm .. Nov 27 11:48:27 i was hoping you'd help me on this one :) Nov 27 11:48:37 Well, point them to our public answers, have them send us emai lwith their questions Nov 27 11:48:50 fair enough Nov 27 11:48:52 again, we think a lot of people have gotten overexcited about this because they don't understand it Nov 27 11:49:01 the_dude: done? Nov 27 11:49:04 sure Nov 27 11:49:09 thanks Nov 27 11:49:19 * darix removes voice from the_dude Nov 27 11:49:22 * josef|vista has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:49:24 * cboltz has quit (Excess Flood) Nov 27 11:49:25 * henne gives voice to dotan Nov 27 11:49:28 dotan: your turn Nov 27 11:49:41 I guess Nat answerred it Nov 27 11:49:47 thanks anyway Nov 27 11:49:49 * bmr (n=bmr@hagbard.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:49:51 Heh Nov 27 11:50:01 You can ask another one if you want Nov 27 11:50:06 * anddreaz (i=irc@ip68-3-181-120.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:50:11 * CruX| (n=CruX@soueza.utc.sk) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:50:11 * henne gives voice to dead_rose Nov 27 11:50:13 * }-Tux-{ (n=marcus@p83.129.30.132.tisdip.tiscali.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:50:17 * darix removes voice from dotan Nov 27 11:50:28 How this deal going to affect me, not a developper but a technical user who is using SuSE to make a living pushing out Microsoft from SMB datacenters and desktop users, by replacing it with opensource solutions ? Nov 27 11:50:29 we still have a lot of questions in the queue Nov 27 11:50:38 * sPiN (n=spin@24-181-206-174.static.hckr.nc.charter.com) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:51:34 It will help you quite a bit, first it will give confidence to your customers that Linux and Windows will be working together Nov 27 11:52:08 * cb400f (n=cb400f@pc-viii-43.ruc.dk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:52:32 and second it will give them a much more secure environment then the Windows boxes they run Nov 27 11:52:41 (You see, we are still competing!) Nov 27 11:53:03 dead_rose: answered?:) Nov 27 11:53:11 * cboltz (n=cboltz@88.134.58.13) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:53:14 hmmm sure Nov 27 11:53:27 dead_rose: if there is anything unclear just say it. :) Nov 27 11:53:30 Let us know if we can help you in other ways :-) Nov 27 11:53:34 We support your mission :-) Nov 27 11:53:47 Is it Novell gonna protect me ? Nov 27 11:53:47 * darix removes voice from dead_rose Nov 27 11:53:58 * darix gives voice to dead_rose Nov 27 11:54:03 * Bel- (n=bel@amiga.bsnet.se) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:54:13 * krokas (n=krokas@61.247.243.160) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:54:16 in case Microsoft put the hounds after me Nov 27 11:54:42 ok 10x Nov 27 11:55:08 We will do everything we can to support you :-) Novell offers indemnification to our customers, MS promises not to sue Novell customers, and Novell has invested heavily in the Open Invention Network which protects EVERYONE against patent lawsuits. Nov 27 11:55:34 By the way, Novell didn't need protection from the OIN itself. We already had hundreds of patents. But we invested anyway -- effectively giving protection to all the other Linux companies. Nov 27 11:55:37 done? Nov 27 11:55:50 Yes but this is not a patent infrigment but an attack on some biz area ! Nov 27 11:55:50 * Josephine has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:56:11 If you are trying to kick Windows out Nov 27 11:56:12 and put Linux in Nov 27 11:56:16 we will do everything we can to help you! Nov 27 11:56:19 I guess I am not the only one ! Nov 27 11:56:23 :-) Nov 27 11:56:27 * klausT (n=klausT@Me5b5.m.pppool.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:56:40 dead_rose: as ballmer said: we are still competing in the business. :) Nov 27 11:56:41 dead_rose: question answered now? Nov 27 11:56:48 * shoonya (n=rahasya@59.144.37.145) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 11:56:49 10x nat ... I apreciate your effort to come in here Nov 27 11:56:56 100% ok Nov 27 11:56:57 * darix removes voice from dead_rose Nov 27 11:57:01 next! Nov 27 11:57:17 * henne gives voice to idra Nov 27 11:57:19 * DaHess (n=dhesse@87.198.128.250) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 11:57:22 idra: go ahead Nov 27 11:57:27 ok a question again on the deal itself Nov 27 11:57:57 * AZB has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 11:58:02 What does get form the deal? so far you told us what's the Novell pros, and what happen if MS does not keep up the promises? Nov 27 11:58:18 I mean how novel can react if MS sues a Novell customer anyway? Nov 27 11:58:30 We will make fun of them in public Nov 27 11:58:33 :-) Nov 27 11:58:46 I'm not exactly sure what the provisions are on breach of contract Nov 27 11:58:48 in this deal Nov 27 11:58:50 but usually it's a pretty serious thing Nov 27 11:58:56 Also, the covenants MS is offering are not secret Nov 27 11:58:57 and how Novell can react if MS drag its feet and do not really help much for interoperability? Or worst help only in one direction Linux -> Windows Nov 27 11:59:02 you can go to microsoft.com/interop right now and read them Nov 27 11:59:10 they are promises Microsoft is making to all Novell customers Nov 27 11:59:10 idra: Novell can sue MS, if MS does it , but the customer has to tell us Nov 27 11:59:20 and MS intends them to be legally binding Nov 27 11:59:34 * Murdock2K has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 11:59:41 I doubt that will happen idra Nov 27 11:59:43 Doesn't seem likely. Nov 27 11:59:51 sorry guys, I've read all the material, I am asking question that are not answered by that material Nov 27 12:00:02 On interoperability Microsoft has already started to work with us. We have engineer to engineer talks around Lohnhorn's hypervisor already and are starting with real work soon! Nov 27 12:00:22 Nat_, well MS history speaks clearly about that but if you think this case will be different I accept your answer Nov 27 12:00:38 Everyone thinks MS are these geniuses who always put together bulletproof deals Nov 27 12:00:43 but history speaks otherwise on that., too Nov 27 12:00:52 Remember the case where Microsoft sued Lindows for trademark infringement? Nov 27 12:01:00 The customers who have asked for interoperability are very powerfull cusomters even from a Miscoroft perspective. Nov 27 12:01:04 The judge who oversaw the case ended up calling into quesiton the Windows trademark itself Nov 27 12:01:05 (I was referring to cooperation btw) Nov 27 12:01:14 Microsoft essentially lost in the US Nov 27 12:01:23 and ended up paying Lindows a HUGE $24million settlement Nov 27 12:01:27 and all Lindows had to do was change the name Nov 27 12:01:37 The whole deal was supposed to be secret Nov 27 12:01:49 but then Lindows (now Linspire) was compelled by the SEC to reveal the secrets of the deal Nov 27 12:01:58 as a material financial event for Linpsire, which was going public at the time Nov 27 12:01:59 * wiener has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:02:02 * cboltz has quit (Excess Flood) Nov 27 12:02:05 So... here you have MS suing a small company Nov 27 12:02:21 and the result is, they pay $24 million, their secrets aren't kept, and the Windows trademark itself is questioned Nov 27 12:02:26 This does not sound like the work of geniuses Nov 27 12:02:30 there are numerous examples like this Nov 27 12:02:42 so I would turn the paranoia knob down one notch :-) Nov 27 12:02:50 I've aked specifically what Nov 27 12:02:54 * cboltz (n=cboltz@88.134.58.13) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:03:08 We are glad to be partnered with Microsoft and are really glad they want to work together with us to make Linux/Windows interoperability function better Nov 27 12:03:12 Novell can do in case Microsoft don't respect these 2 promises Nov 27 12:03:36 * cb (n=cb@88.134.58.13) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:03:39 idra: I don't know, that's part of our contract I'm sure. It would be breach of contract, which is usually pretty serious. That's a detail of the deal which I'm not privy to. Nov 27 12:03:44 * cb400f_ (n=cb400f@pc-viii-43.ruc.dk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:03:45 It would look really bad for MS though, I'm sure. Nov 27 12:03:45 * tahmar1900 (n=tahmar19@CBL217-132-105-78.bb.netvision.net.il) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:03:56 okay next question idra? Nov 27 12:03:59 We have all the ways available between two parties of a contract, nothing special we are aware of. Nov 27 12:04:09 the only one unaswered, is what are the pros for MS ? Nov 27 12:04:25 idra: novell holds some patents aswell. Nov 27 12:04:48 darix, that's the only pro for MS ? Nov 27 12:04:51 They are satisfying their large customers who have pushed them towards this. Nov 27 12:05:07 For all other motives I think you need to ask them. Nov 27 12:05:08 * hoeferbe (n=hoeferbe@216-54-159-97.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:05:29 * tom_cz has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 12:05:32 idra: questions answered? Nov 27 12:05:35 yes Nov 27 12:05:36 * darix removes voice from idra Nov 27 12:05:41 * Cenuij (n=ganderso@82-41-99-26.cable.ubr03.dund.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:05:47 * snowglu (n=christia@85.25.67.203) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:05:53 okay one little adimistrative thing :) Nov 27 12:05:59 we have spend one hour now Nov 27 12:06:05 i will not accept new questions Nov 27 12:06:14 but only empty the queue Nov 27 12:06:21 * cstoica has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:06:22 so we have time to answer the questions from the wiki Nov 27 12:06:29 * henne gives voice to netmask Nov 27 12:06:32 netmask: go ahead Nov 27 12:06:34 (Q) I still have old mail/blogs to read but as far as I've already gathered Microsoft won't sue individuals if they code and use patented code at home and don't distribute. ZDNet says "it's worst than useless". Some GPL advocates claim that the non-sueing agreement should apply to all users/developers, even if they don't use SLE(S/D). How is the discussion on this area? Is Novell interested in extending the deal to non-Novell Linux users? Nov 27 12:06:53 Good quesiton, we covered this one earlier in the hour Nov 27 12:07:05 I agree that the individual covenant from Microsoft is not good enough Nov 27 12:07:08 We've asked MS to broaden it Nov 27 12:07:15 They want to make it broader, to make it work for the community Nov 27 12:07:20 We're working on that with them now Nov 27 12:07:23 I hope we have results soon :-) Nov 27 12:07:31 so no news for now? Nov 27 12:07:35 Nothing yet Nov 27 12:07:38 thanks Nov 27 12:07:38 Sorry, thanksgiving interrupted the work Nov 27 12:07:43 * _tx_ (n=tx@nc-76-0-133-198.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:07:54 * bald (n=bald@81-228-29-113-o1110.telia.com) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:07:57 * henne gives voice to tolyluis Nov 27 12:08:00 tolyluis again Nov 27 12:08:04 * darix removes voice from netmask Nov 27 12:08:09 last question? Nov 27 12:08:16 tolyluis: just ask your question Nov 27 12:08:23 what Novell think about patents?. Do you want to go on here in Europe? Nov 27 12:08:25 By the way, I recommend everyone read our FAQ on this deal if they haven't already Nov 27 12:08:26 http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html Nov 27 12:08:34 * _tx_ (n=tx@nc-76-0-133-198.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has left #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:08:51 tolyluis: we have a public patent statement on that Nov 27 12:08:52 http://www.novell.com/company/policies/patent/european.html Nov 27 12:09:05 * fxrsliberty (n=fxrslibe@c-71-232-139-124.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:09:07 In short, we think article 52 of the european patent covention is good as it stands Nov 27 12:09:18 tolyluis: you had another one Nov 27 12:09:33 * deryck (n=deryck@24.181.123.236) has left #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:09:41 * waqas (n=chatzill@r5br143.net.upc.cz) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:09:45 tolyluis: another question i mean Nov 27 12:09:56 no i dont for now sorry Nov 27 12:10:07 okay Nov 27 12:10:13 * darix removes voice from tolyluis Nov 27 12:10:17 * henne gives voice to mcxx Nov 27 12:10:22 mcxx: please go ahead Nov 27 12:10:31 Do you fear openSUSE developers will migrate to other distributions, as proposed by Shuttelworth. Why/why not? Nov 27 12:10:36 * cb400f__ (n=cb400f@pc-viii-43.ruc.dk) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:11:11 * henne gives voice to adrianL Nov 27 12:11:24 * cboltz has quit (Excess Flood) Nov 27 12:11:27 * darix removes voice from bgerber Nov 27 12:11:33 I do not fear Shuttleworth, because people who fear that openSUSE might violate GPL will notgo to a distro which actually is doing it. ;) Nov 27 12:12:09 * tales[c] (n=tales[c]@Vbdc9.v.pppool.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:12:10 But they don't need to switch to Ubuntu. Nov 27 12:12:17 Also openSUSE is clearly a great distribution. We're glad Ubuntu is out there too -- the more the merrier -- as the pie is plenty big enough for all of us. Nov 27 12:12:40 of course there is always a risk that people will switch because of decisions, but there is also always the chance that others switch to because of this reason in the opposite direction Nov 27 12:12:55 * cb400f has quit (Connection timed out) Nov 27 12:13:07 * DaHess (n=dhesse@87.198.128.250) has left #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:13:15 mcxx: question answered? Nov 27 12:13:24 yes, thanks Nov 27 12:13:28 * darix removes voice from mcxx Nov 27 12:13:30 mcxx: we can be frigthend now, but only the time will tell ... Nov 27 12:13:40 * henne gives voice to Tsuroerusu Nov 27 12:13:47 Tsuroerusu: please go ahead Nov 27 12:13:47 * Bel- has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) Nov 27 12:13:54 >If< this deal is going to violate GPLv3, is Novell willing to fork all the last GPLv2 versions of the libaries and components needed to put a distribution out the door (glibc, gcc etc. etc) ? Nov 27 12:13:55 we should work on creating a good 10.2 so they stick to suse. Nov 27 12:14:09 * cboltz (n=cboltz@88.134.58.13) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:14:19 Obviously we don't want to spend our time forking and maintaining parallel branches of glibc, gcc, etc Nov 27 12:14:27 But it's really hard to discuss GPLv3 considering it doesn't exist yet Nov 27 12:14:45 And despite these ominous and threatening statements from Eben and Richard, we don't know what form it will take Nov 27 12:14:56 The way I heard their statements, they were more of a threat to Microsoft than to Novell. Nov 27 12:15:11 Anyway, that's a hypothetical question that is hard to answer without the details. Nov 27 12:15:12 Let's wait for the next draft of GPLv3. Nov 27 12:15:24 OK, one more thing Nov 27 12:15:40 a tiny one i hope ;) Nov 27 12:15:46 go ahead Nov 27 12:16:11 * Bel- (n=bel@amiga.bsnet.se) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:16:13 faster Nov 27 12:16:24 Excuse me, my keyboard sucks, hang on ;) Nov 27 12:16:45 * chris_boca has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:16:59 hm Nov 27 12:17:00 I also just want to say, for the Ubuntu question, I think it's best for Linux if we all focus on taking users from Microsoft instead of shifting them between Linux distributions. Nov 27 12:17:12 Tsuroerusu: just a reminder: you only have roughly 480 chars ;) Nov 27 12:17:12 Also, there are a few billion people out there who hvaen't even chosen an operating system yet Nov 27 12:17:15 that leaves a lot of room for all of us. Nov 27 12:17:24 * yojoe has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Nov 27 12:17:24 Nat_: You said earlier that you still were gonna work on making SUSE the best distro, well, how about giving permission or whatever is needed to allow ZMD, rug etc. to be taken out of openSUSE I have had so many curse words about ZMD and stuff that it would offend you. Nov 27 12:17:52 Tsuroerusu: Get 10.2 ;-) Nov 27 12:18:04 * ohin has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:18:06 AJaeger: It's still default, and that's the problem ;) Nov 27 12:18:17 * cb400f_ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) Nov 27 12:18:22 I want it fed to the dog Nov 27 12:18:23 :P Nov 27 12:18:23 By default you get the "Enterprise Software management Pattern" - just disable that and use the "openSUSE SW Pattern" Nov 27 12:18:33 please. not that topic again. this is OFF-TOPIC Nov 27 12:18:35 This is off-topic, I'm not answering further ;-) Nov 27 12:18:43 this is something for a general status meeting Nov 27 12:18:44 * darix removes voice from Tsuroerusu Nov 27 12:18:49 next Nov 27 12:19:06 * henne gives voice to kblin Nov 27 12:19:11 How does this "non-commercial vs commercial" developer split affect summer of code students who obviously earned money for their work during the summer and who continue to contribute to their respective projects in their spare time now? Nov 27 12:19:11 * dmayr (i=dmayr@nat/suse/x-0dca074aa1d4714f) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:19:11 kblin: please go ahead Nov 27 12:19:21 It's not clearly defined Nov 27 12:19:25 kblin: I think that's one of the limitations of the individual covenant Nov 27 12:19:32 as we mentioned before, we are not happy with the way that covenant was written Nov 27 12:19:38 * _massi_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 12:19:40 MS has acknowledged that the covenant is not good enough either Nov 27 12:19:49 google for "jason matusow covenant" and you'll find a blog from an MS employee about that Nov 27 12:20:01 http://blogs.msdn.com/jasonmatusow/archive/2006/11/11/your-input-requested.aspx Nov 27 12:20:04 We are working with MS to improve that covenant so that it's actually useful. Nov 27 12:20:07 * p34 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 12:20:09 Ah thanks darix :-) Nov 27 12:20:23 The idea is to cover all open source developers. Nov 27 12:20:30 So we hope we can get the wording a lot closer in the next draft :-) Nov 27 12:20:34 kblin: does that answer your question? Nov 27 12:20:43 * cboltz has quit (Excess Flood) Nov 27 12:20:47 sort of Nov 27 12:20:53 * mkrauss (n=chatzill@195.75.97.187) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:20:57 * dmpop (n=dmpop@0x503e2293.arcnxx11.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:20:58 I have another one though Nov 27 12:21:01 Shoot Nov 27 12:21:14 * apokryphos has quit (Connection timed out) Nov 27 12:21:32 has microsoft expressed any interest in cooperating inother compatibility areas? apart from xen and OOo? Nov 27 12:21:44 say, samba or kerberos.. or wine Nov 27 12:21:59 * lacin (n=lacin@213.207.249.230) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:22:01 * AZB (n=JLF@ncecc2.ford.com) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:22:02 * rindolf has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:22:03 * tonz has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 12:22:03 We do have a huge wishlist for them, no worries Nov 27 12:22:06 * jervine (n=jon@193.128.128.29) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:22:08 * tscholz has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:22:28 * cboltz (n=cboltz@88.134.58.13) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:22:30 The three areas we already agreed on are the beginning, not the end. I am sure you will see more going forward. Nov 27 12:22:50 hd41, let's say I worry because so far they haven't given the EU much useful documentation Nov 27 12:22:51 Virtualization, OpenOffice and WebServicesManagement is where we begin. Nov 27 12:23:18 who are the moderators? Nov 27 12:23:28 * tonz (n=tonz@lap206.comtec.e-technik.uni-kassel.de) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:23:33 We can't really comment on that. Nov 27 12:23:35 * lacin has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:23:40 * lacin (n=lacin@213.207.249.230) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:23:40 isnt samba and mono covered too? Nov 27 12:23:55 kblin: are you satisfied? Nov 27 12:23:57 What we know is that openSUSE 10.1 and SUSE Linux Enterprise 10 were able to get a lot of Active Directory integration done, and our customers love it! Nov 27 12:24:04 I've read nothing on wine.. and it's patents on the api I'm concerned abouth Nov 27 12:24:24 kblin: i dont think wine will be covered. Nov 27 12:24:27 kblin: done? Nov 27 12:24:34 anyway, that goes in the direction of what irda asked, and that wasn't really answered Nov 27 12:24:36 so, done Nov 27 12:24:46 * kl_eisbaer (i=kl_eisba@nat/suse/x-f8fca508b9e0a234) has joined #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:25:08 okay final question from the queue Nov 27 12:25:18 * henne gives voice to dotan Nov 27 12:25:22 dotan: again Nov 27 12:25:24 * darix removes voice from kblin Nov 27 12:25:28 Hi again :) do you think the community feedback you recieved is somewhat "orgenised"? and what is the motivation to do so? Nov 27 12:25:41 I think it's pretty disorganized Nov 27 12:25:46 Different people are expressing different opinions Nov 27 12:25:49 ouch Nov 27 12:25:58 Some people say "Oh god! A deal with MS!" Nov 27 12:26:09 Some say "A deal with MS is good! But oh god, you acknowledged that patents are infringed by Linux!" Nov 27 12:26:13 and then some people said Nov 27 12:26:24 "A deal with MS is okay! And every piece of software infringes patents! But the covenants are not good!" Nov 27 12:26:31 So... I don't think it's particularly organized. Nov 27 12:26:57 dotan: does that answer your question? Nov 27 12:27:08 sure, cool with me Nov 27 12:27:22 * sPiN has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 12:27:30 * bauersman has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:27:32 * mhatta has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:27:32 * carp3 (n=carp3@82.99.233.206) has joined #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:27:48 * henne removes voice from dotan Nov 27 12:27:50 okay Nov 27 12:28:00 now we are going over to the wiki questions Nov 27 12:28:11 http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Special_Meeting_2006-11-27 Nov 27 12:28:55 which ones are not answered yet ? Nov 27 12:29:12 * klausT (n=klausT@Me5b5.m.pppool.de) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:29:16 the one about is mono covered by the agreement? Nov 27 12:29:21 * spectrum1 (n=spectrum@cl-lnx-sprinc-srch.blue4.cz) has left #openSUSE-project Nov 27 12:29:30 * Pa^2 (n=Papa@63.238.104.170) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:29:40 give us a minute to sort out whats not already answered Nov 27 12:29:45 * mkrauss has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:29:55 * unexist (n=unexist@193.175.49.206) has left #opensuse-project Nov 27 12:31:19 Question from Marcell: What will Novell do when MS starts to sue other linux distros (ie. community driven Debian, Gentoo, Arch...) for patent infringments? Suggest paying 40m in cash? Nov 27 12:31:34 Novell invested a huge quantity of resources into the Open Invention Network Nov 27 12:31:42 * twirl has quit (Client Quit) Nov 27 12:31:49 which is an independent company formed to protect all distributors of Linux against patent lawsuits Nov 27 12:32:07 We gave OIN money and helped them get patents which they can use to retaliate against anyone who sues a Linux distributor Nov 27 12:32:29 So if MS were to sue Mandriva for distributing Linux, for example, OIN's protection would be triggered Nov 27 12:32:41 We think OIN is a great organization and we continue to support OIN. Nov 27 12:32:59 The same protection would apply to non-profits like Debian. Nov 27 12:33:14 (www.openinventionnetwork.com for more information) Nov 27 12:34:13 * cboltz has quit (Excess Flood) Nov 27 12:34:57 question from cb400f__ Nov 27 12:34:59 If the public financial details are correct. MS will pay $240 million for 5x70.000 SLE coupons. According to my calculations that's about $685 per coupon. I understand that a coupon is a one year subscription. That's a pretty steep price, makes people, including me, think MS might be buying something other than coupons for the money. Maybe there's some relation to question #1, otherwise I don't like to think about what MS is buying. Nov 27 12:35:29 Microsoft will be a sales channel of Novell going forward. Nov 27 12:36:01 As part of this deal Microsoft is purchasing 70,000 coupons a year. Nov 27 12:36:30 The coupons are for standard and priority subscriptios of SUSE Linux Enterprise Server and include support from Novell to the end customer. Nov 27 12:36:51 The pricing is a normal price which we use in other deals of such sizes. Nov 27 12:36:53 Mono is covered by the agreement, to answer JBarr's question. Nov 27 12:37:14 thanks :) Nov 27 12:37:23 * AZB has quit (Remote closed the connection) Nov 27 12:37:35 thwere are no questions in the wiki we didnt answer i think Nov 27 12:37:42 right? Nov 27 12:37:47 Sounds good to me Nov 27 12:37:48 Thanks for joining us everyone :-) Nov 27 12:37:51 So that was it. I hope we answered at least some of your questions (im sure Nat fingers hurt). Nov 27 12:37:56 If you have more dont hesitate to contact us on opensuse-project@opensuse.org Nov 27 12:37:57 Thanks everybody! Nov 27 12:38:03 Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck!