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Can you trust your computer?

By JT Smith on October 21, 2002 (8:00:00 AM)

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-By Richard Stallman -
Who should your computer take its orders from? Most people think their computers should obey them, not obey someone else. With a plan they call "trusted computing," large media corporations (including the movie companies and record companies), together with computer companies such as Microsoft and Intel, are planning to make your computer obey them instead of you. Proprietary programs have included malicious features before, but this plan would make it universal.

Proprietary software means, fundamentally, that you don't control what it does; you can't study the source code, or change it. It's not surprising that clever businessmen find ways to use their control to put you at a disadvantage. Microsoft has done this several times: one version of Windows was designed to report to Microsoft all the software on your hard disk; a recent "security" upgrade in Windows Media Player required users to agree to new restrictions. But Microsoft is not alone: the KaZaa music-sharing software is designed so that KaZaa's business partner can rent out the use of your computer to their clients. These malicious features are often secret, but even once you know about them it is hard to remove them, since you don't have the source code.

In the past, these were isolated incidents. "Trusted computing" would make it pervasive. "Treacherous computing" is a more appropriate name, because the plan is designed to make sure your computer will systematically disobey you. In fact, it is designed to stop your computer from functioning as a general-purpose computer. Every operation may require explicit permission.

The technical idea underlying treacherous computing is that the computer includes a digital encryption and signature device, and the keys are kept secret from you. (Microsoft's version of this is called "palladium.") Proprietary programs will use this device to control which other programs you can run, which documents or data you can access, and what programs you can pass them to. These programs will continually download new authorization rules through the Internet, and impose those rules automatically on your work. If you don't allow your computer to obtain the new rules periodically from the Internet, some capabilities will automatically cease to function.

Of course, Hollywood and the record companies plan to use treacherous computing for "DRM" (Digital Restrictions Management), so that downloaded videos and music can be played only on one specified computer. Sharing will be entirely impossible, at least using the authorized files that you would get from those companies. You, the public, ought to have both the freedom and the ability to share these things. (I expect that someone will find a way to produce unencrypted versions, and to upload and share them, so DRM will not entirely succeed, but that is no excuse for the system.)

Making sharing impossible is bad enough, but it gets worse. There are plans to use the same facility for email and documents -- resulting in email that disappears in two weeks, or documents that can only be read on the computers in one company.

Imagine if you get an email from your boss telling you to do something that you think is risky; a month later, when it backfires, you can't use the email to show that the decision was not yours. "Getting it in writing" doesn't protect you when the order is written in disappearing ink.

Imagine if you get an email from your boss stating a policy that is illegal or morally outrageous, such as to shred your company's audit documents, or to allow a dangerous threat to your country to move forward unchecked. Today you can send this to a reporter and expose the activity. With treacherous computing, the reporter won't be able to read the document; her computer will refuse to obey her. Treacherous computing becomes a paradise for corruption.

Word processors such as Microsoft Word could use treacherous computing when they save your documents, to make sure no competing word processors can read them. Today we must figure out the secrets of Word format by laborious experiments in order to make free word processors read Word documents. If Word encrypts documents using treacherous computing when saving them, the free software community won't have a chance of developing software to read them -- and if we could, such programs might even be forbidden by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

Programs that use treacherous computing will continually download new authorization rules through the Internet, and impose those rules automatically on your work. If Microsoft, or the U.S. government, does not like what you said in a document you wrote, they could post new instructions telling all computers to refuse to let anyone read that document. Each computer would obey when it downloads the new instructions. Your writing would be subject to 1984-style retroactive erasure. You might be unable to read it yourself.

You might think you can find out what nasty things a treacherous computing application does, study how painful they are, and decide whether to accept them. It would be short-sighted and foolish to accept, but the point is that the deal you think you are making won't stand still. Once you come depend on using the program, you are hooked and they know it; then they can change the deal. Some applications will automatically download upgrades that will do something different -- and they won't give you a choice about whether to upgrade.

Today you can avoid being restricted by proprietary software by not using it. If you run GNU/Linux or another free operating system, and if you avoid installing proprietary applications on it, then you are in charge of what your computer does. If a free program has a malicious feature, other developers in the community will take it out, and you can use the corrected version. You can also run free application programs and tools on non-free operating systems; this falls short of fully giving you freedom, but many users do it.

Treacherous computing puts the existence of free operating systems and free applications at risk, because you may not be able to run them at all. Some versions of treacherous computing would require the operating system to be specifically authorized by a particular company. Free operating systems could not be installed. Some versions of treacherous computing would require every program to be specifically authorized by the operating system developer. You could not run free applications on such a system. If you did figure out how, and told someone, that could be a crime.

There are proposals already for U.S. laws that would require all computers to support treacherous computing, and to prohibit connecting old computers to the Internet. The CBDTPA (we call it the Consume But Don't Try Programming Act) is one of them. But even if they don't legally force you to switch to treacherous computing, the pressure to accept it may be enormous. Today people often use Word format for communication, although this causes several sorts of problems (see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html). If only a treacherous computing machine can read the latest Word documents, many people will switch to it, if they view the situation only in terms of individual action (take it or leave it). To oppose treacherous computing, we must join together and confront the situation as a collective choice.

For further information about treacherous computing, see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html.

To block treacherous computing will require large numbers of citizens to organize. We need your help! The Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.eff.org) and Public Knowledge (www.publicknowledge.org) are campaigning against treacherous computing, and so is the FSF-sponsored Digital Speech Project (www.digitalspeech.org). Please visit these Web sites so you can sign up to support their work.

You can also help by writing to the public affairs offices of Intel, IBM, HP/Compaq, or anyone you have bought a computer from, explaining that you don't want to be pressured to buy "trusted" computing systems so you don't want them to produce any. This can bring consumer power to bear. If you do this on your own, please send copies of your letters to the organizations above.

Postscripts:

1. The GNU Project distributes the GNU Privacy Guard, a program that implements public-key encryption and digital signatures, which you can use to send secure and private email. It is useful to explore how GPG differs from treacherous computing, and see what makes one helpful and the other so dangerous.

When someone uses GPG to send you an encrypted document, and you use GPG to decode it, the result is an unencrypted document that you can read, forward, copy, and even re-encrypt to send it securely to someone else. A treacherous computing application would let you read the words on the screen, but would not let you produce an unencrypted document that you could use in other ways. GPG, a free software package, makes security features available to the users; they use it. Treacherous computing is designed to impose restrictions on the users; it uses them.

2. Microsoft presents Palladium as a security measure, and claims that it will protect against viruses, but this claim is evidently false. A presentation by Microsoft Research in October 2002 stated that one of the specifications of Palladium is that existing operating systems and applications will continue to run; therefore, viruses will continue to be able to do all the things that they can do today.

When Microsoft speaks of "security" in connection with Palladium, they do not mean what we normally mean by that word: protecting your machine from things you do not want. They mean protecting your copies of data on your machine from access by you in ways others do not want. A slide in the presentation listed several types of secrets Palladium could be used to keep, including "third party secrets" and "user secrets" -- but it put "user secrets" in quotation marks, recognizing that this is not what Palladium is really designed for.

The presentation made frequent use of other terms that we frequently associate with the context of security, such as "attack," "malicious code," "spoofing," as well as "trusted." None of them means what it normally means. "Attack" doesn't mean someone trying to hurt you, it means you trying to copy music. "Malicious code" means code installed by you to do what someone else doesn't want your machine to do. "Spoofing" doesn't mean someone fooling you, it means you fooling Palladium. And so on.

3. A previous statement by the Palladium developers stated the basic premise that whoever developed or collected information should have total control of how you use it. This would represent a revolutionary overturn of past ideas of ethics and of the legal system, and create an unprecedented system of control. The specific problems of these systems are no accident; they result from the basic goal. It is the goal we must reject.

Copyright 2002 Richard Stallman
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted without royalty in any medium provided this notice is preserved.

Editor's note: This article first appeared in Richard Stallman's new book, "Free Software, Free Society." This is the first time the article has appeared online, and Stallman has added some new material.

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on Can you trust your computer?

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Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 12:50 AM
It allmost seems unreal that we seem to be moveing into the BIG BROTHER PHASE in America. It saddens me to watch this if not olny for the fact that it will lead to drastic measures to regain FREEDOM.

                  WAR ANYONE?? NO GIVE THEM CAKE.
What ever happened to Inocient till proven guilty.
Also couldent this view on law be used for guns also.

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You have already been found guilty...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:23 AM
... of being unable to spell!!! ha ha ha!

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Re:Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:54 AM
It saddens me to watch this if not...

Then don't watch...do something about it!

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Re:Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 05:30 AM
guns are bad, you dodo!

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Re:Can You trust your Computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 07:01 AM
cliches, and simple minds that listen to Socialist slogans, are worse.

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Kudos to RMS!

Posted by: HarryLeBlanc on October 22, 2002 12:52 AM
This is incisive analysis of "trusted" computing, and of free software's importance to free speech. Many people knock RMS for extreme positions, but I for one salute him for steadfast principles. Whether we like it or not, computing is politics and economics, not just science and technology. The computer industry's slide down that slippery slope is accelerating, and will only get harder to stop if we keep doing and saying nothing. I only hope that RMS's views can reach readers outside the geek press.

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RMS normal, everyone else is extreme

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 09:17 AM
I consider RMS normal, everyone is extreme.

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Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: kshim5 on October 22, 2002 12:53 AM
From NewsFactor (first seen on OSINT) --
http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/19707.html

Microsoft Beta Software Site Hacked
Microsoft's password-protected beta test site, where software can be tested before it hits the market, has been hacked, forcing Microsoft to
issue new passwords to more than 20,000 members of its developer networks.
New versions of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET, Windows XP and other software were reportedly downloaded without authorization, as were experimental software
programs that have not been made public yet.
Microsoft emphasized that no source code was compromised in the breach and that the stolen software will be problematic to use and copy as a
result.

I wouldnt buy microcrap os if it was on sale for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.5 cents what a bunch of idiots i know some hacker is havind fun with all their latest software right now

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 04:54 AM
you dont know shit.
Im a beta tester and i can tell you for sure it wasnt hacked

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 05:52 AM


I smell the incredibly unmistakable scent of denial.

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 08:18 AM
maybe you posted anonymously becasue you don't want anyone knowing you are a beta tester for m$? i sure wouldn't.

i post anonynously because i am:

a) lazy
b) paranoid
c) ADD

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Re:Microsoft site was hacked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:39 AM
Hey ass monkey read the article how would you know if the site was not hacked even it was you think microcrap is going to tell you it did ???????<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:{}

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bravo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 12:55 AM
RMS has somewhat of a reputation for being a pedantic extremist, but in this case he appears to have hit the nail on the head and shown just how much of a threat some of the technologies developing today really are. I've found RMS' writings like this are generally very good: check out <A HREF="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html">the right to read</a gnu.org> for another good example.

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Indeed

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:29 PM
Even though I don't share his aversion to proprietary software, I'd echo with agreement his thoughts as they relate to this article. I don't think he exagerates about the significance of having a private and closed entity control and have authority over how you can use your own data.

More than anything, it is this disturbing evolution of Microsoft Windows that makes run for the safety of Linux.

One might also consider the legality of a U.S. company having complete authorization control over the computer systems of, say, France.

I know that I'll support freedom by promoting Linux to those who want alternatives.

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Re:Indeed

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 05:54 AM

This really is the end result of supporting proprietary software, though. It's the fact that proprietary software is even accepted at all that makes it possible for companies to do this.

If Free Software were the expected default, we wouldn't be worrying about Microsoft, the MPAA, and the RIAA.

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Re:bravo

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:36 AM
"The Right to Read" is fabulous. when I first read it, back around '97 or so, I thought it was a little extreme, but was willing to allow that political satire often is extreme, deliberately for effect. Still, I thought his point would ahve been stronger if he'd toned it down a little.

I was wrong.

I re-read it about six months ago, and in the light of the DMCA, CBDTPA and TCPA, it no loner seems extreme at all. In fact, it seems eerily prescient.

Practically all the major points in "The Right to Read" are either enacted or pending legislation.

This is a Bad Thing. (But a very good essay!)

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Say Global Programers STRIKE Anyone

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 12:55 AM
You are the people that need to make the stand.

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Re:Say Global Programers STRIKE Anyone

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 02:42 AM
What would such a strike, if it were actually attempted, accomplish? I know that if you asked, say, RMS to go on strike from programming he would just do what he's been doing for years--go on strike from commercial programming.

A "strike" where everybody writes free software would accomplish more.

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brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:18 AM
if ms and its loyal distributors of hardware want to ensure that i stop upgrading my hardware, this is the way to do it. if they want me to start using openoffice.org full time, this is the way to do it. if they want me to start spending more time learning to use my linux box, this is the way to do it. if they want to guarantee that every little cracker baby out there has a singular target, this is the way to do it. and if these self-righteous, unethical career politicians, that for some reason people keep voting for, decide they want to get in on the act...watch out.

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Re:brilliant im with you

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 03:47 AM
Great idea hit them where it hurts the most, in the pockets of course. maybe then they'l realize who ther'e trying to please, microcrap or their costomers.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 04:41 AM
if they want to guarantee that every little cracker baby out there has a singular target, >

can you help me out with what exactly you mean here?

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:59 AM
I'm sure he means that if the cracker kiddies can figure out a Palladium exploit, then everyone's (er, everyone that's running a Palladium-equipped "PC"[not really a PC anymore imho, more like a "CC" {Corporate Computer}] anyway) fucked.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:33 AM
precisely! thank you.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:27 PM
Not really.

Didn't you read the part about old hardware not being permitted to connect to the internet? Or about "untreacherous" software not being allowed access?

The easiest single response is to dismantle Microsoft and the government of the United States.

When you get done with that part, give me a call and I'll fill you in on the rest.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:02 AM
I think eschelon just got your IP address... Men in black will be ariving soon. Don't lie to them, they know what you said about dismantling the US.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:30 AM
well...if it is indeed possible (politically speaking, not technically) to deny old hardware internet access, which i tend to doubt because ISP's would lose 70% of their business overnight, i would be happy to be part of the new network that could pop up within a few weeks.

as for the government...the ranks of those with nothing to lose are growing daily. at the same time there are many with plenty to lose who are becoming more and more disillusioned with the system of corporate government, in which the freedom and rights of the people are usurped by politicians willing to sell them to the highest bidder. when these two groups get together and start to share resources and ideas...well, maybe then i can give you that call.

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GNU will still develop

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:59 AM
If it came to that, free software would continue to develope on its own. And I doubt they can or would block old computers from the internet. They may be able to do that with sequel version of the internet that aren't publicly available yet. But that would just mean that we would use the current internet or we would make NerdNet/GNUNet

All they would do is give more people incentive to develop for Linux.

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Re:brilliant

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 28, 2002 09:54 PM
StarOffice and OpenOffice will hopefully be able to replace Office, think about it, if all pc resellers bundled all pc's with openoffice instead of ms, then users would learn that, rather than MS office. this will also make new users automatically more familiar with linux before even hearing of it.

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Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:40 AM
"If Microsoft, or the U.S. government, does not like what you said in a document you wrote, they could post new instructions telling all computers to refuse to let anyone read that document. Each computer would obey when it downloads the new instructions. Your writing would be subject to 1984-style retroactive erasure."

You mean like they do here on newsforge?

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Grant Gross on October 22, 2002 01:55 AM
Huh? Gee, I wish I'd known earlier that we have control over your computer here at NewsForge.

Grant

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:23 AM
Censorship isn't bad in *ALL* cases.

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 07:39 PM
Who is to decide when it's a good case?

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Grant Gross on October 22, 2002 09:35 PM
When you own the server, you get to decide.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

Grant

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:52 AM
>When you own the server, you get to decide.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

So any kiddie that 0wnz this box has full permission to rm -rf /

interesting aproach.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-D

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Re:Who else is doing this?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:29 PM
What Newsforge does on its own computers is up to Newsforge.

What RMS was writing about happens on YOUR computer.

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Moron! Free speech != posting w/e u want on NF

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 07:10 AM
Newsforge is a private business you moron!
Just because you have free speech doesn't mean
NewsForge has to print whatever the hell you
want it to say. God, you are simple-minded
and childish. Graduate from high school ya dope!

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PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:55 AM
Stallman makes some good points. I am worried a little about my next PC (especially if it runs XP or Longhorn), but the action is increasingly turning to embedded devices like TVs, DVD players, and car stereos. Here the insistence on open source isn't as helpful - chances are you won't be able to compile some source and load it into your car stereo, for instance. Service providers for cable and web-based programming likewise can track everything we do. Seems like this is getting more into EFF as opposed to the classic FSF territory for advocacy.

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:22 AM
Where have you been? Oh. Redmond. Have fun spreading you FUD.

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:29 AM
Here's something I disagree with, therefore I'll just label it M$ FUD. Boy, I'm good.

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 03:50 AM
What/who are you talking about? I can't see what Redmond has to do with what the previous poster wrote. Or would a concern be less valid because it came from that part of the U.S. (Perhaps s/he lives there. Oooh, I smell a conspiracy.)

It seems to me the poster you replied to raised a legitimate question that has nothing to do with whatever you are spouting off about. A good deal of "computing" is moving away from the area of the traditional PC, and it seems to me that the questions of control raised in the article are equally valid in this newer arena. I guess I got the sense that all the poster was trying to do was include this arena in the discussion.

Or are you suggesting that RMS is spreading anti-Microsoft (I'm not afraid to spell it out) FUD. If that is the case, go on being a sheep. The intellectual slaughter will come soon enough. Baa. .<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Baa. . .

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Re:PCs, appliances, service providers

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 04:16 AM
You are right. But I believe a lot of embedded devices these days are running some form of gnu/linux.
I had to read to find out that Tivo and PS2 have the linux kernel inside. I guess as consumers we have to be more careful at what we buy and who we buy it from. But there will probably always be folks would
take things like the Xbox and install free software on them for us to use. I just hope they do it outside the US so they don't get persecuted.

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Tivo definately...PS2?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:09 AM
Tivo is most definately a Linux distribution. It uses GNU tools and all, it's just not available for download, you get it when you buy the box. PS2 has a Linux distribution that they sell with a $150 add-on kit, could you point me to a URL that says that the PS2 itself runs the linux kernel?? I think you are incorrect.

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Re:Tivo definately...PS2?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:27 AM
<A HREF="http://netbsd.org/Ports/playstation2/">It's got NetBSD in it if you put it there</a netbsd.org>

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Re:Tivo definately...PS2?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:31 AM
<A HREF="http://playstation2-linux.com/">http://playstation2-linux.com/</a playstation2-linux.com>

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Re:That's easy, too...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:45 PM

Don't buy them. This isn't intended as a smartass remark- I'm totally serious. Nothing you've mentioned can be characterized as a necessity, and going without any of them long enough to put the hurt on companies who insist on promoting palladium-laced products certainly won't harm anyone. This is one of many cases where a little self-discipline will be well worth the cost.

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Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 03:43 AM
First of all i will never ever buy micro$oft os i wouldn't take it from any one for free, so the the government can put back doors or microcrap can put back doors in there os until they all go to hell i'll stick with linux what alot of these rusty old farts that are in congress since abe lincoln(some of them might even know abe himself)was president dont understand is that todays generation is 100000 times smarter than they were growing up in some backwoods part of some mountian lodge will take advantage of the same technology that ther'e using to "protect therir" products from piracy will just enable more hackers eaisier access to other computers on the network doesn't anybody at micro crap think ?.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:32 PM
If you are "100000 times smarter", why can't you spell or use punctuation? Do you even know what a "run on" sentence is?

In a battle of wits, you are unarmed.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 12:50 AM
Did i or anyone ask you for your fucking comments?
it's good to know you can read now go back to your english class and be a good bitch.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:51 AM
...
you posted on a public site bad mouthing backwoods individuals while claiming to be smarter than politicians, yet your poor use of grammar and insatiable use of fowl language only demised your own intelligence.

so in a sense, yes, you did ask for them.

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 08:04 PM
Good point.
Well said.
Gramatically correct.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and people without one should get one, whether they are right or wrong. But it is a persons ability to convey their opinion that is what is important.

Bot furgive me spealing

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Moron

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:12 AM
Idiot.

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Re:Moron

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:34 AM
It's wise asses like you that make people dont want to use Linux get a life and write your own comment you looser.

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Re:Moron

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 07:54 AM
Learn to spell and punctuate then ! As has been said, this is a public forum. EXPECT comments back; especially if you use foul language, and do not present your views in an easily read format. Lack of punctuation increases the permutations and possible meanings of what you 'write', and detracts from any 'clarity' you originally intended !

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Re:Can You trust your Computer ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 22, 2002 09:49 PM
Of course if they make it illegal to access the 'net from a non-TCPA computer, you won't be able to post semi-literate garbage like this from your aging Linux box. So truly it is an ill wind that blows nobody good.

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In my country the problem will be worse

Posted by: Anirban Biswas. on October 22, 2002 05:02 AM
The problem is more greate India as a 3 rd World developing country , not only the M$ & other evil companies will be able to spy on the user of their product but they will set very high price for their s/ws & since as a drug adict the user will be so hooked to these softwares that they have to pay for it or have to use pirated one which are often causes problems & pirated software is a greate risk for business organization as M$ can pull them to court.

That is why I use GNU/linux ( also it is a greate OS) & my ( I am a student ) college had these problem earlier & now Linux is every where in my college.

Now also thanks to RMS & also comming to my country some monthes ago , though I missed the seminer as it was in bangalore & I lives in Calcutta.

Anirban Biswas.

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Re:In my country the problem will be worse

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 09:23 AM
Both India and China have switched to Linux as their offical OS in schools and I believe government too.

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Re:In my country the problem will be worse

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 30, 2002 12:24 AM
I am afraid, only China has in a big way supported red flag linux over MS$. The corrupt Indian government is still courting Bill gates. While a few states in India have talked about linux, its nowhere near the measures in China.
In fact, according to syllabi in many state schools, use of a word-processor implies use of MS$ word-processors !! And this country claims to be a "democracy" based on "freedom".

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What is necessary

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 05:05 AM
The most inportant thing IMHO is that governments should mandate that all their documents should be done in open source formats. No one should require a specific proprietary product to be able to access information. This is treachoruos in every way. One reason M$ is dominant is that it is given the platform to be able to.
Reverse engineering should explicitly be allowed. This is very different from copying. At the rate things are moving, it will be illegal to make software that operates in a similar way to other software.
I think consumers must wholly refuse to accept initiatives such as palladium. Vote with your dollars. Don't buy the palladium systems. And I am sure there are alternatives to M$. Many platforms to choose from. Think RISC.
Lastly the Linux community must not kid itself and think that people will just run to Linux if M$ goes ahead with its outrageous plan. We must develop software that is as feature rich as in the proprietary world, even if it means that at times it is less secure and so on. That is the basis of choice. If you want people to use Linux then you should cater for those who might not want to configure their ftp servers in some text file. Cater for everyone.

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I'll switch to paper.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 05:07 AM
If something like that would ever happens,
I'll swicth back to plain paper, and let the no
brain people to use my pc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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Re:I'll switch to paper.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 03:31 AM
that's probably the most intelligent response so far!

kudos!

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Good but not great

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 05:37 AM

"The specific problems of these systems are no accident; they result from the basic goal. It is the goal we must reject."

I think he could have used a copy editor in several places. For example, in the above text what is "the goal". He needs to explicit refer back to "the goal" by either stating "that goal" or explicity restating what is the "goal" of treacherous computing.

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Re:Good but not great

Posted by: Douglas C on October 23, 2002 09:58 PM
Pick, pick, pick.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P

The goal is to take away our freedom to use a computer in the way a computer has become known to be useful - that is what must be rejected.

Privacy for the *licensed by TCPA?* user, the usefulness of a *licensed by TCPA?* computer to the developer and passage for *licensed by TCPA?* content/software *licensed by TCPA?* producers and/or *licensed by TCPA?* distributers will be controlled.

A locked box may be interesting but is useless to me *until the lock is picked*.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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Re:Good but not great

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 01:03 PM
I don't think so. It is quite clear that "the goal" refers to the topic of outsiders controlling your machines. Real English isn't constrained by the crap grammer they teach in 5th grade.

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Re:Good but not great

Posted by: Douglas C on October 25, 2002 02:09 PM
s/grammer/grammar/

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Great- definately not just good

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 29, 2002 02:05 PM
Well, it may not be stated in the article, but it is well known what Microsoft's goal and such is... to "rule the world". I have heard them also quoted wanting to compile the 'largest personal identification database' from the net and all of their sources. This is not hard to see, look at where they are going - software, OS, dialup, broadband, MSN, MSNBC, -- the Internet will be owned by Micro$oft and all the computers on it soon.

I Told You SO
j<A HREF="http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020627.html">
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020627<nobr>.<wbr></nobr> html</a pbs.org>

RMS actually told us so a LONG time AGO
<A HREF="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html">
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html</a gnu.org>

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Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 06:11 AM
RMS makes a good argument here. But the FSF also hides it's goals and tries to play tricks on people, even the ones they support.

To begin with, the name 'Free Software Foundation' is a mockery of the word 'free'. If they really wanted _free_ software they wouldn't impose on the programmers that the source code has to be available in_all_derivative work. To me the BSD-license is the only one that really gives you free software in it's true sense.

Regarding the latter, is <A HREF="http://www.altlinux.ru/pipermail/devel/2001-August/003208.html">a very good article</a altlinux.ru> written by Ulrich Drepper. It describes how RMS tried to force himself into control of glibc.

What I would like RMS to answer is: Do you want "free" software or _free_ software and the free programmers that brings?

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//Christian

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 07:54 AM
"To begin with, the name 'Free Software Foundation' is a mockery of the word 'free'. If they really wanted _free_ software they wouldn't impose on the programmers that the source code has to be available in_all_derivative work. To me the BSD-license is the only one that really gives you free software in it's true sense."

No one is forcing you to use GPL'ed software. Yes, RMS advocates that you do, but he is not forcing you to do so. But if you do use GPL'ed software then you have to abide by its rules.

Freedom does not mean absense of laws . In fact, democratic countries that value freedom also have strong laws to protect that freedom. That is exactly what the FSF aims to do for GPL'ed software.

The objective of the FSF is that free software remain free. That is not the objective of the BSD licence. That doesn't mean one of them is wrong. These are two different views of the world.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Charles Lewis on October 22, 2002 08:44 AM
"If they really wanted _free_ software they wouldn't impose on the programmers that the source code has to be available in_all_derivative work."

WRONG! BSD give you the power to take the gift of my free software away from the community and make it your own. The minute this happens, it is no longer free. GPL ensures that my software will ALWAYS be free. If you don't like it, get your hands off of it, and write your own crap.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Mikkel Elmholdt on October 22, 2002 03:57 PM
BS. BSD-license software will stay free, regardless of what anyone does with it. The code does not disappear just because Big Evil & Co. uses it in their product.

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M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:27 AM
Imagine that Microsoft<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET 2006 ships with Apache webserver, which is available under the BSD license. Microsoft has out-sourced writing the FrontPage modules and such for Apache (as the frontpage module currently sux to implement/use). Microsoft makes the modules closed/proprietary and rewrites parts of apache to work better in Win32 than it currently does, and commences with shipping ApacheM$ with FrontPage and ASP instead of IIS. Although lots of people want/need better FrontPage support in Apache on *nix it never happens and people who need that are forced to buy M$<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET 2006 instead of just running LAMP(Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP). Should M$ be able to do that? IMHO, they shouln't be able to, but the BSD license allows them to.
How's that free?

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Re:M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 10:09 AM
No one is forced to do anything. If MS adds something to Apache that has value to some people, those people can either take it or leave it. If MS adds value, they should be able to set their own terms, as onerous as that may be.

Now if someone buys the MS Apache, and they get shafted in the long run, than they have no one else to blame. But as free thinking persons, they have the choice. Just like MS has the choice to provide affordable software with a sensible license -- or not.

Hell, you can take Apache and code up your own Front Page extensions, just the way you like them. That's what the BSD license is about. Providing something that EVERYONE can use. Completely altruistic. A person who releases software under the BSD WANTS their code to be used EVERYWHERE -- no strings attached. Even if the software gets wrapped up in a closed product, it is still their providing a benefit to its users -- who are saved a little aggravation since at least that part of the software works.

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Re:M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Mikkel Elmholdt on October 25, 2002 06:44 AM
I don't follow your convoluted train of thought. If MS would take Apache (and we're a lot who hope that they do - the Internet would be a lot safer<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:- ) ) and do (good?) stuff to it but keep the changes to themselves, then Apache (the original and unmolested version) is still free for everyone else. The code does not disappear<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....

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Re:M$ shipping with Apache...

Posted by: Mikkel Elmholdt on October 25, 2002 06:47 AM
BTW: What you think MS should or should not be able to do with Apache, is of little relevance. Here's what the Apache people thinks about this issue: "We want to see Apache used very widely -- by large companies, small companies, research institutions, schools, individuals, in the intranet environment, everywhere -- even though this may mean that companies who could afford commercial software, and would pay for it without blinking, might get a "free ride" by using Apache. We would even be happy if some commercial software companies completely dropped their own HTTP server development plans and used Apache as a base, with the proper attributions as described in the LICENSE file."

(quote taken from http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html)

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 09:30 AM
While I disagree with you, you're off topic as well. So please, STFU.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 06:13 PM
How can anyone possibly think that the GPL gives YOU freedom, I fully agree that it give the CODE freedom. But how could anyone possibly argue that the code should be free rather than the programmers?

And perhaps the code isn't free either: Say you program an AI that can improve itself and you have used some GPL'd code in work. The AI after careful consideration decides that it likes the freedom that the BSDL gives you better and it wants to make itself available under that license instead. Well well, no can do because it now has the GPL-virus. So from this point of view not even the code is free.

And by the way, why hasn't anyone mentioned the article by Drepper? It seems to me that letting your software reside under a license that is modified by RMS from time to time is quite insane. If I were you, I sure wouldn't write 'this software is licensed under the latest version of the GPL' into my source code. Who knows what could happen then? (besides RMS, that is)

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//Christian

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Tahir Hashmi on October 22, 2002 08:14 PM
How can anyone possibly think that the GPL gives YOU freedom, I fully agree that it give the CODE freedom

And why does that make you see red? Freedom as used in the society is not _just_ about a person's freedom. It's about a person's freedom to get his/her rights. Think of it this way -- would you like a society that is so free that it allows people to resort to crime at their own discretion? How would it be like, if someone invents a knife to make it easier to process food and someone else uses that knife to resort to anti-social practices?

The primary motive of having GPL was indeed to protect the source code from being locked up in some corporate storage. I fail to understand what's wrong in that.

Think again. Freedom != freedom to do _anything_.

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Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 08:36 PM
Well, if you want to use other people's work, you have to respect the terms imposed on that work by the person who generously made it available, so if it's GPL-licensed then you have to accept that. If you can't accept that, don't use that work.

It's completely childish to complain about being unable to take the products of other people completely on your own terms. I believe the term "freeloader" is the most appropriate description of an individual who behaves in such a fashion.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 09:25 PM
Another term for freeloader is Microsoft.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:11 AM
I agree that if you use a GPL'd product such as Linux, you have to respect the license terms and not whine about it. Stallman, however, wants to go further - he wants the community to boycott *all* proprietary software, even though the Linux EULA explicitly allows application software to be closed source. This is Stallman's ideology, not something present in the Linux license.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:41 AM
I'm not sure where to start here, other than saying that you're ill-informed. Linux was released under the GPL, i think it's funny (not haha funny) that you wrote 'the Linux EULA.' Yes, Stallman has his (what i would consider) skewed vision of nothing proprietary, ever; but it was that vision that gave us the GPL in the first place. He even bent-over and took one for corporate america when he created the LGPL, which allows libs to be incorporated into non-GPL applications. Yes, he would love it if everyone on the planet stopped using/buying proprietary/closed-source software, wouldn't you? IMO proprietary apps should be left to non-critical add-ons, like games. No open source project in the near future will ever compete with UT2003, for example; though I would prefer if the y would open up the engines and just sell the data files as copyrighted/protected material... I digress. In any case, I think you need to do a bit of reading on the subject before spouting inaccuracies and less-than-half-truths.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 03:00 AM
And what are the "less-than-half-truths" that I was "spouting", Professor?

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Quake?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:48 AM
I would consider Quake to be at least as good as UT, and id puts their source out as GPL (all except the most current release). As the user of software, I should get the source code so as to be able to tailor/fix the code as I need. That does not mean they have to give the code out for free. Just that it should be included with the sale (rent in Microsoft's case).

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:25 AM
First, EULA != License.

Second, the Linux kernel is provided under the GNU GPL. Stallman wrote the GNU GPL.

Put two and two together and maybe this time you'll get four. You got three last time. Try again please.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 06:58 AM
fyi - Linus added an addendum to the Linux GPL stating that applications that make use of the kernel solely through regular system calls are not derived works. Read it and weep.

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Re:Free or Freeloader?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 04:50 AM
If you look at it, on moral grounds, Stealing would be a better term!

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 11:23 PM
>And perhaps the code isn't free either: Say you
>program an AI that can improve itself and you have
>used some GPL'd code in work. The AI after careful
>consideration decides that it likes the freedom >that the BSDL gives you better and it wants to
>make itself available under that license instead.
>Well well, no can do because it now has the
>GPL-virus.

So read the license on the code before using it.
And if you don't want to GPL it, then make sure you
don't use GPLed code.

Would you just click the "I Agree" button on an
online EULA without actually reading it, and then
complain about the EULA's terms later?

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 12:01 AM
How is it freeloading when someone uses my BSD'd code without publishing their code?

Freeloading is when you take something and give nothing back, but when Apple or MS takes BSD code and adds into their propriety software that actually adds to the community in the form of competition.

You don't seriously think that a good GUI design like the one Apple/MS has developed (and KDE/GNOME copied) could have been created without money (in that case; Newsflash: designers and cognition researchers don't work for free).

The fact that Apple can take the BSD code and make an operating system better than FreeBSD is mainly due to money, which wouldn't be available in the open-source community. To the community this kind of a "secondary access to money". Since Apple can hide the code to their GUI but not the GUI itself it is actually a form of contibution.

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//Christian

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 04:46 AM

Freeloading is when you take something and give nothing back, but when Apple or MS takes BSD code and adds into their propriety software that actually adds to the community in the form of competition.


Sure, when Ms takes BSD code and uses into IE, it increases competetion. Yeah right.


You don't seriously think that a good GUI design like the one Apple/MS has developed (and KDE/GNOME copied)


Correction: A Gui design which Xerox created and Apple/Ms copied. Newsflash for you: Most computer science related algorithms and advances have been available to others for free.


The fact that Apple can take the BSD code and make an operating system better than FreeBSD is mainly due to money,


Oh really? You seem to be confusing the Os with the GUI. Get over it, man. KDE/Gnome today are far better than anything Apple/Ms can do. period.


Since Apple can hide the code to their GUI but not the GUI itself it is actually a form of contibution.


Yeah, that neighbhour of yours bought a brand new spanking sports car, and its a form for contribution to the fish in the ocean. Some logic, I must say.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:22 AM
Competition for you that is, of course. Competition is a very good motivator for development. Windows for instance has started to improve now that it gets much more competition from Apple and Linux.

I know Xerox created it, but guess what Xerox is a company with money too. And you obviously haven't seen Mac OS 10.2 in action, it is quite simply superior to anything else - GUI wise.

And yes, it is a form of contribution since you don't get any designwork for free. I agree that universities are good at writing code, but how many have _designed_ something good.

<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//Christian

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:35 AM
Competition *IS* good, but you're arguing for one way competition: we give and they take.

That, in the long run, does not produce a meaningful form of competition - it creates inequity.

And yes, it is a form of contribution since you don't get any designwork for free.

That's a bogus statement. You require design to write any non-simplistic form of software. It doesn't just hatch.

I suspect that you're either not a coder, or a very bad one.

I agree that universities are good at writing code, but how many have _designed_ something good.

Most of the P2P revolution sprang from universities.

And, let's not forget this little thing called The Internet... Yeah, that came from Universities too...

Need I go on, or have I checkmated you yet?

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:30 AM
Freeloading is when you take something and give nothing back, but when Apple or MS takes BSD code and adds into their propriety software that actually adds to the community in the form of competition.

That's a cop-out argument.

They're competing whether they take your code or not. Your code does not explicitely allow them to compete.

You're just making it cheaper for them to compete with you and take away your freedom.

You are entirely free to do that. The GNU GPL does not take away your right to do that with your code.

I will be damned if you do that with my code, though. I don't contribute to reducing the freedom of others intentionally. Perhaps you do, but I won't.

You don't seriously think that a good GUI design like the one Apple/MS has developed (and KDE/GNOME copied) could have been created without money (in that case; Newsflash: designers and cognition researchers don't work for free).

Sure I do. Now, you're arguing against the BSD license just as much as the GNU GPL. I think that you're way off track here.

Since Apple can hide the code to their GUI but not the GUI itself it is actually a form of contibution.

No it's not. It's restriction. Do you let someone hand-cuff you and then stick a lollipop in your mouth, and then later say "Well, at least I got a lollipop out of the deal!"?

My God man, think before you speak.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:23 AM
How can anyone possibly think that the GPL gives YOU freedom

How can you possibly think that it doesn't?

The only restriction that the GNU GPL places on me is that I can't take away the freedoms of others. That's not wrong.

In a Free Society, should you be allowed to kill?

Sure, it might restrict you and killing may simply be unethical - but does that give you the right to take away the freedom of others?

Say you program an AI that can improve itself and you have used some GPL'd code in work. The AI after careful consideration decides that it likes the freedom that the BSDL gives you better and it wants to make itself available under that license instead.

No self respecting AI would choose the BSD license over the GNU GPL.

The decision is simply illogical.

Well well, no can do because it now has the GPL-virus. So from this point of view not even the code is free.

Sure it is. You're asking the wrong question.

The code itself is free to do whatever it wants in that instance. You are free to break the GNU GPL. However, doing so is a license violation and in doing so you may have your license rejected.

Now, the question you should be asking is whether the code can be determined to be a person. If not, then the law doesn't apply to it and neither does the license.

In that instance, you couldn't change the license, but the code sure as hell could.

You have failed to think through your own scenario.

And by the way, why hasn't anyone mentioned the article by Drepper?

Because not everyone harps on people's individual stories quite like you do.

It seems to me that letting your software reside under a license that is modified by RMS from time to time is quite insane. If I were you, I sure wouldn't write 'this software is licensed under the latest version of the GPL' into my source code. Who knows what could happen then?

That provision is necessary to keep code free. Almost all licenses out there include a license versioning clause.

However, here's a little copyright law for you: The license that code is released under is ALWAYS dictated by the copyright holder. If the copyright holder disagrees with the new format of the GNU GPL it is entirely within their power to release their code under a different form of the license.

The entire issue is a Red Herring.

This form of distrust comes about because you simply do not understand copyright law. (Not that anyone really does understand everything about it.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) )

Please, do some research on this before you spout off half-cocked.

#

Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:14 PM
you mean that killing someone is taking their freedom or stopping them from killing is?

and whoever said killing was bad?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

besides: if the AI wanted kids, i really think it WOULD chose BSD

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: fitzix on October 24, 2002 04:57 AM

Killing is never "right" - only justified in certain instances. There is a distinction.

And if the AI chose to have it's kids under a BSD style license, it would be choosing to have it's children in chains.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 11:53 AM
No! You're missing the point. GPL is about freedom for the _USER_.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 04:22 AM
Right.

And where is my freedom to murder people?

Where is my freedom to barge into your house and rob you?

Sorry, but you have to impose restrictions on people to protect the rights of others. This absolute freedom you speak doesn't exist in truly free societies. Consider 2 societies, one which is free to murder, one which isn't. Are you free if someone is legally able to murder you?

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:11 AM
First and foremost, the FSF does not require software to be under a copyleft license in order to be considered Free Software. The current BSD license *IS* considered Free Software by the FSF.

(See http://www.fsf.org/licenses/license-list.html)

As if that wasn't enough to entirely destroy the premise of your argument, I want you to compare the TCP/IP stack behavior of the current line of MS OS' and compare it's performance to the FreeBSD TCP/IP stack.

Then, answer me this: How do you attain freedom while allowing others to take away your freedom?

Can a system such as that even survive? Perhaps, but the prerequisite to that system is that absolutely everyone in that system must be trusted to not use that ability.

The fact of the matter is that we live in an untrustworthy world.

People who use BSD style licenses because they believe that they better represent freedom and provide freedom to the rest of the world are not following through with the reality of the license dynamics involved. If the predominant form of Free Software licensing were BSD style licenses, then the entire Free Software movement would most likely have never taken off simply because our work would have gone to fund those who wished us not to exist.

It's that simple. Move beyond step 1 and where is your freedom?

And never listen to only one side of a story. Ulrich should not be so heavily trusted. In my dealings with the FSF, I've found them to be very easy to deal with and very open to others' opinions on matters. They have never forced anything to occur in our project. Sure, there have been arguments - but that's true regardless of the situation and the parties involved.

Ulrich blew the situation out of proportion and decided that whining was the best retort. And you're doing yourself a disservice if you only listen to one side of the argument.

I'm not saying that the FSF is perfect, it's not. But, you have just painted a picture of them that is nowhere near the reality of what they are.

#

Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: kirkjobsluder on October 24, 2002 12:47 AM
Then, answer me this: How do you attain freedom while allowing others to take away your freedom?

There are two problems in you logic here. First of all 'freedom' by definition includes the freedom to do the wrong thing. Free speech includes hate speech. Free association includes the KKK. Free religion includes the World Church of the Creator.

Secondly, if I give something for free, what have I lost if Microsoft incorporates it into the next version of Windows. The original is not only in my posession, but in the posession of thousands of others around the world. GPL advocates argue that software is a non-rivalous resource when the opposing view is proprietary software, but software is a rivalous resource when the opposing view involves less restrictive licenses.

Can a system such as that even survive? Perhaps, but the prerequisite to that system is that absolutely everyone in that system must be trusted to not use that ability.

Not necessarily due to network effects. There are more incentives to keep the free original in circulation. (The massive number of Shakespeare adaptations has not harmed the popularity or access to the original plays.) In fact the public domain nature of HTML and http and the freeness of TCP/IP has been essential to the development of the internet. And relatively stable because anyone can make a web browser.

People who use BSD style licenses because they believe that they better represent freedom and provide freedom to the rest of the world are not following through with the reality of the license dynamics involved. If the predominant form of Free Software licensing were BSD style licenses, then the entire Free Software movement would most likely have never taken off simply because our work would have gone to fund those who wished us not to exist.

Actually, Stallman's own writings point out that BSD type liceses were the primary way software was developed within the free sofware movement. In fact, most of my early coding experiences were using the vast library of public domain software available before the GPL was even on the radar.

The adoption of BSD operating systems have been following the same curve as Linux retarded only by the unfortunate lawsuit. BIND, Sendmail and Python have achieved nearly universal penetration without copyleft. Perl has a very weak copyleft (just change the name of the executables.) For that matter, XFree86, Postgresql, and Apache have been quite successful in the absence of copyleft.

In all of these cases there is a powerful disincentive for the big fear of GPL advocates of having free code sold back to them. Why buy the commercial version when the free version is standard, has more network support, and is free. With a handful of exceptions,the massive code theft predicted by GPL advocates has not taken place in spite of more than 15 years of pre-GPL history and many examples of thriving non-copyleft projects.

The GPL is a very good thing because it creates a software commons. However I find it dissapointing when GPL advocacy relies on FUD and distortion.

#

Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: fitzix on October 24, 2002 06:48 AM
First of all 'freedom' by definition includes the freedom to do the wrong thing. Free speech includes hate speech.

This is actually incorrect.

Free Speech does include hate speech, but it doesn't include threats or verbal fraud, nor does it include committing purgery. It also doesn't give you the right to go preaching with a bullhorn in middle of the night in a residential neighborhood.

You example is legally flawed and doesn't represent reality. Having and expressing an opinion in an open forum is required for productive discourse, that's why the first amendment exists.

It is a right to have opinions and be able to state them.

The constitution does not give you the right to remove other people's freedom of speech in the same forum (technically, it doesn't give the government the right - it says nothing about private individuals/premises). The BSD license allows people to remove the rights of others from the equation during distribution.

That is what I dislike.

No, your analogy is flawed.

Secondly, if I give something for free, what have I lost if Microsoft incorporates it into the next version of Windows.

You have effectively lost your ability to guarantee the freedoms that you enjoy, and you've lost any guarantee that you will continue to enjoy those freedoms.

Make no mistake, proprietary production forces intend to use you - whether it be for profit or for reducing their workload.

Why you seek to be exploited, I don't know. It's your choice, but ultimately you lose your freedom in the ecosystem.

Not necessarily due to network effects. There are more incentives to keep the free original in circulation.

Yet, historically, that hasn't always happened.

Hoping that your correct is very different than being correct. You can't guarantee that that is the case.

(The massive number of Shakespeare adaptations has not harmed the popularity or access to the original plays.)

No doubt, but Shakespeare is very much dead and a community doesn't exist on the philosophy of his work.

In fact the public domain nature of HTML and http and the freeness of TCP/IP has been essential to the development of the internet. And relatively stable because anyone can make a web browser.

I have not a single issue with open standards. That's fine.

I also don't really have a problem with the BSD license nor with people who write BSD'ed software.

Just don't dillude yourself into believing that you're providing the world with a greater level of Freedom by licensing your software under the BSD license rather than the GNU GPL. Even a modest analysis of the network effects there indicates that you are not.

When doing your analysis of network effects, you really do have to move beyond the first and second level of effects.

Actually, Stallman's own writings point out that BSD type liceses were the primary way software was developed within the free sofware movement.

Do you have a referrence to this statement?

I simply don't know if that's true or not.

My experience has been that the GNU GPL is the predominant form of Free Software development. Historically, that may very well be different. And I may very well be wrong. However, I'd like a reference before I concede this point.

In fact, most of my early coding experiences were using the vast library of public domain software available before the GPL was even on the radar.

And where is that work now?

The adoption of BSD operating systems have been following the same curve as Linux retarded only by the unfortunate lawsuit.

And the fact that most implementors of the code (barring Apple, partially) have proprietized it and included it into their own products.

BeOS users (back a few years ago) could be considered FreeBSD users - except for the fact that they were using a proprietary fork of the product.

Yes, I'll agree that the number of FreeBSD users has increased over the years, probably at the same percentage growth rate as GNU/Linux - if not at a greater percentage rate because of the statistical obfuscation of having a smaller body of initial adoption.

BIND, Sendmail and Python have achieved nearly universal penetration without copyleft.

When BIND and Sendmail were written, the GNU GPL was not around.

I'm not saying that all BSD licensed programs are ultimately headed for obscurity - I never said that and your extrapolation of that is incorrect.

I said that "the entire Free Software movement would most likely have never taken off"...

Note the term "movement"

In all of these cases there is a powerful disincentive for the big fear of GPL advocates of having free code sold back to them. Why buy the commercial version when the free version is standard, has more network support, and is free.

No doubt - this is true, if you know about the product in question.

Go to a local store and ask some consumers how many of them know what BIND or python is. Then ask them how many of them recognize the term "Linux" -- then see what your response is.

With a handful of exceptions,the massive code theft predicted by GPL advocates has not taken place in spite of more than 15 years of pre-GPL history and many examples of thriving non-copyleft projects.

Have you done the bitwise comparrisons on the binary files to check for this?

Then you can't possibly make this statement.

We factually know of enough examples of this to prove that this is occurring, that's all that we need to do.

Microsoft does it. BeOS did it. IBM does it. Apple does it. Need I go on?

Listen, unless you're going to say that people don't have the right to relicense derivative works under the BSD license, you've done nothing to prove any of my points wrong. Since you can't do that, you're not going to change my mind on it.

The GPL is a very good thing because it creates a software commons. However I find it dissapointing when GPL advocacy relies on FUD and distortion.

Wow - FUD and distortion. Big words.

No - FUD would be saying that the BSD license forces you to sign up for the nazi party. Distortion would be saying that the BSD license makes you agree to a sex change.

No - unless you can show that the BSD license does not allow proprietization of derived works, everything I said applies.

You may disagree with it, but that does not make it FUD nor does it make it distortion. People throw those terms around *WAY* too often.

Although, I suppose it does make people feel better to think that others who do not share their opinion are just trying to deceive people. Unfortunately, though, that is not the case and there will be no warm fuzzies for you based on that fact.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

#

Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: kirkjobsluder on October 24, 2002 11:19 AM
You know, after considerable thought and much typing, I'll keep this brief.

The major flaw in your argument is that on the one hand, software should be free because it is a non-rivalous resource. (No matter how much you take, there will always be a lot more.) On the other hand, your argument against non copyleft free licenses rests on the logic that software is a rivalrous resource. That if some other company chooses to build a commercial product on the free knowledge, the overall freedom of the software is reduced.

Where I feel that this is FUD, is with the dire predictions that people who publish non copyleft software are contributing to some vague future collapse of the free software community. Basically I find your fundamental assumptions to be flawed.

For starters, with a non rivalrous resource, nothing that I can do with the resource can affect your freedom to do what you want with the resource. For example, I may start a company that distributes the bags of air that are used in packaging products. The fact that I sell bags of air does not affect your freedom to breathe. Free software with the existence of the Internet is similarly a non rivalrous resource. Once you have access to the source code, nothing that I can do with the source code can interfere with your freedom to use the source code.

You also assert that if I failed to provide the source code in a manner that is convenient for you, that I am violating your rights to free speech. I find us to be a very problematic definition of free speech. For example, most of the creative works published around the world are written in a language that I do not comprehend. Your definition of free speech would demand that those publishers create a translation for my convenience. I do not believe that my rights are violated by the publication of personal ads in Chinese, in Beijing newspapers. Nor do I accept the argument that publication of a work in a format that is inconvenient to me violates any of my rights.

I have a strong historical precedent for rejecting a right to demand convenient access to work. In the early 20th century, Congress passed a law to limit sedition by requiring that publishers submit copies of their periodicals to the local postmaster in English. Before the law was rejected by the Supreme Court, the damage was done and several hundred non-English periodicals vanished because of the financial burden of translation. The Supreme Court found that placing the burden of convenience on the publisher was a violation of its First Amendment rights.

Basically, speech is also a non rivalrous resource. There is no way that I can publish my work that infringes on your freedom of speech. If I publish my source code in moon runes in the language of Modor, you can certainly complain that my work is inaccessible to you. You can respond by complaining loudly in Arabic. On the other hand, I have some powerful strategic reasons why I might want to make the source code available in a more readable format, because it is to or mutual benefit to engage in a dialogue. But you do not have the right to force someone else (such as Microsoft) into a dialogue with you. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to not speak.

For the history of free software from the free software foundation see http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-history.html It points out that a free software culture existed when RMS started working at MIT in 1971. The GNU project comes into existence 12 years later. Of course it is possible that you're talking about to the "Free Software Movement" exclusively as the FSF and a chorus of FSF cheerleaders. In which case, saying that the GPL was central to the "free software movement" is rather like saying that the Constitution of the United States is central to the development of the United States. The GPL is one of the core defining documents of the FSF and saying that the GPL is central to the success of the FSF is a bit of a fatuous statement. In fact, the opposite may be just as true that the FSF is central to the success of the GPL. No other license has a political lobbying body pushing for it.

In fact, we have plenty of counterexamples for the claim that free software depends on copyleft. CERN and NCSA Web servers exploded shortly after their release without copyleft. Apache is still the dominant Web server without copyleft. Perl offers very weak copyleft and yet has not been subjected to a commercial fork. XFree86, Postgesql, Python, Sendmail and BIND have done extremely well without copyleft. My SQL only recently adopted the GPL. The growth rate of the BSD Systems follows the same curve as Linux retarded by the two-year delay.

In fact, your examples in regards to BSD demonstrate the power of a truly free approach as opposed to a mostly free approach. The commercialization of BSD (and the distribution of BSD utilities with many other operating systems) has not affected freedom in regards to the original source code. The fact that Apple and Be commercialized BSD does not affect my ability to run and modify BSD-licensed software in my own office. On the other side, NeXT, Be, and OSX are darned good operating systems. Sometimes the point of releasing free software is to benefit all users, not just users of GPL software. If I came up with something as useful and potentially good for humanity as the original HTTPd, you can bet that I would publish it under the public domain in the hopes that everybody uses it. There other cases where the GPL is not a good idea. My audience may include government agencies that must publish in the public domain. My audience may include situations where it doesn't make sense to distribute the source code (such as cases where you have to cram as many programs as possible into a single CD and every byte counts.)

I don't believe they you're intentionally distorting, for that matter don't believe that most Microsoft supporters are intentionally distorting when they make claims about the viral nature of the GPL. I think that you honestly believe that BSD-type licenses are a threat to the overall health of the free software community. We have had a thirty-year history of non-copyleft licenses. In application domains such as e-mail, Web, and DNS servers they have extreme market dominance. The BSD operating systems are thriving in spite of or because of propritization. The most frequently used example of "embrace and extend" poaching, Keberos, apparently involved the subversion of an open standard without actual poaching of source code. So evidence of the impending fall of the free software community due to non-copyleft licensing is seriously lacking.

That does not mean that there are not good reasons to choose the GPL license. I feel that is perfectly reasonable to resent the possibility that a commercial entity that you don't know may appropriate to your software for purposes that you don't approve of. In that case, the GPL license is extremely good. In other good reason is the feeling that if you are going to contribute to proprietary software you want to get paid for your work. This is another good reason for the GPL license. But the FUD is that the free software community is going to rollover and die if everybody does not jump on the GPL bandwagon right now. With 30 years of history proving otherwise, this is a very hard claim to swallow.

#

Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: fitzix on October 24, 2002 07:51 PM
A lot of what you say is true, but I do take exception at certain points:

1) Software is a non-rivalrous resource, this is true. However, it is not a non-rivalrous resource in the same sense as speech. No one is going to pass a law making speech illegal.

The CBDTPA and DMCA are targeted at ending the Free Software movement, and these are simply media-based attempts at control. Without a doubt, more legislation will be attemptedly passed that will carry with it restrictions that attempt to make Free Software illegal.

You see, it's not the software itself that is rivalrous - it's the industry. If the industry wasn't dominated by money-hungry control mongers, then I'd agree 100% with you.

Your making the assumption that people are generally good. While I agree with this assumption, I am making the observation that it doesn't take a whole lot of truly evil people to do something truly bad. This is the situation that we are in. There are entities out there that want to control us and rope us in - and take away our freedom.

If these same forces pass the CBDTPA, the BSD style licenses are in the same exact peril as the GNU GPL.

It's a simple matter of not wanting to help your enemy. It has nothing to do with the theoretical existance of rivalrous and non-rivalrous resources. That is actually immaterial to the argument because the argument is inherently political in nature, not economical.

2) The GNU GPL's clause regarding convenient format is intended so that releasers of code don't obfuscate their code by changing variable names after the fact for the purpose of encoding ones work. Your example is problematic because, under that wide interpretation of the clause, one could release code written in C and be forced to rewrite it in Java because a person getting the code does not like C.

This is not an accurate interpretation of the GNU GPL.

3) The freedom to not speak is analogous to not releasing the software at all, not releasing it under a proprietary license. And the ability to force any entity into a dialogue is a part of copyright law and contract law. Using the BSD license does not negate that basic tenet of the law.

4) When referring to the Free Software movement, I'm referring to he movement for software freedom. What form you place that in is irrelivent to me.

5) The success of BSD licensed software does not negate my point. I have already stated that it's not the specific packages, it's the trend that is problematic. The BSD license *IS* a Free Software license. However, if the entire body of Free Software were written under the BSD license (or MIT or X11), we would be delegated to mere corporate slaves.

6) Utilizing a BSD style license will never guarantee that you will get paid for your work. That argument is spacious.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 01:19 AM
The freedom to restrict the freedom of others?
Nobody deserves that "freedom", especially if they don't pay anything for it.

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 01:06 PM
The FSF is quite clear about what they mean wrt freedom if you actually visit their web site and perhaps observe something more than the fine line art...

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Re:Free or Free?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 01:20 PM
The FSF is quite clear about what they mean wrt freedom if you actually visit their web site and perhaps observe something more than the fine line art...

As for Drepper... He is working on code owned by the FSF. Period. Any code he submits to the glibc becomes the FSF's. The FSF always has and always will own all GNU project code. This is why Linux is not part of the GNU project. Linus will not hand over control and ownership to FSF and insists on using proprietary codes for development. Anyway...

Drepper calls for developers to strike the "any future versions" clause because it hinders his ability to control the project. If he was working on his own code, he would not have this problem. The "any future versions" clause actually protects us from the FSF by providing a guarantee that if the GPL/LGPL is found to require modifications to be legally sound, those modifications can be made to preserve the spirit of the GPL.

Talented idiots like Drepper should step back and take a look at the forest.

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m$

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 06:22 AM
two words:

corporate communism

This is now a question of digital freedom and civil liberties. If this thing becomes reality and enshrined in law, I for one will be an outlaw!

#

Re:m$

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 08:25 AM
i myself will move to either Canada, Mexico, or at your option any other country.

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Re:m$

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 12:32 AM
Actually that's totalitarianism.

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Re:m$

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:37 AM

Thank you. Saved me from having to say it.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

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Re:m$

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:47 PM
It is not corporate communist, but you can call it corporate stalinisme.

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outlaws

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 06:38 PM
you are not alone; there are more among us who are willing to take on the fight even if it becomes a question of belonging to an underground anti-culture.

i and others are aware of the potential end-game in question too and we are sketching, as programmers, network engineers, writers, analysts and researchers, ways that we may be able to construct new protocols, new P2P networks operating outside existing infrastructures, new languages for programming and communication and cheap and ready ways to re-engineer hardware for our purposes.

we know it's coming. we will not wait too long. in the words of a kind of unofficial motto that has grown among us: "DISBELIEF IS NO DEFENSE!"

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oh, the irony

Posted by: gus3 on October 22, 2002 09:53 AM
As I read the article, and indeed even as I type this now, the pages have a Microsoft ad: "Get Microsoft behind your business." Either someone at Linux.com is really twisted, or this is a great way to bite the hand that clubs you. Maybe both.

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Re:oh, the irony

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:36 PM
As I have pointed out before: that space is for sale. If you don't want to see Microsoft ads running there, buy the space and run your own ads.

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Re:oh, the irony

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 12:05 PM
If you run the Squid proxy server with the ad zapper you don't have to see those ads. I don't see any ads on this site. I see a lot of people complain about the M$ ads and it's a real shame. But the ad zapper works great and I have yet to see a Microsoft ad on this site, or any ad for that matter.

#

Richard has made some really good points here

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 11:11 AM
I found this article provided the general hindsight and information others need to pay attention before too late. As his point regarding GPG, I think it's indeed essential and important to understand in terms of security point of view. In a real world, there's no police forces I have known who can prevent all sort of crimes or solve all the cases. In other examples such as military, again resourceful doesn't mean sure winning either. The morale of all of this is I don't think we should let the corporate to overtake ALL the task of computer security for all of us. Microsoft could have made popular and easy to use OS, but if she wanted to transform into a business of providing computer and network security and yet to maintain this big and wide exposure, I don't think she could make it, nor should we seriously trust "security" into any one particular party - this is the morale of prudence in adopting security measures I believe.

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Unrighteous research

Posted by: curlyhoward on October 22, 2002 12:23 PM
Hi:

I heard about this project some time ago at CNN. Apparently, these people are trying to put on some code into OS and even microprocessor to prevent users from using the computers to share copyrighted material, saying it would also increase security and prevent virus infections. However, it is obvious that much more malicious intentions are behind all these ideas.
To my knowledge, current sponsors of this project are Microsoft (of course!) and Intel. What we MUST do is start using alternatives to these malicious companies trying to conquer all the digital traffic. Quit Windows, uninstall Office and get OpenOffice on going, get AMD processor (I personally like them better than Intel), but if we sleep and remain as lambs, these people are really going to hit us hard.
We MUST defend our cyber-rights, no matter what. Post comments like this one, support OpenSource software, and if things get nasty, then hack the trechearous code, fight fire with fire.
Right now, I use Red Hat 8.0, OpenOffice and I can share everything I want with everyone. The gap between Linux and Windows, as well as between Free applications and software like MS Office is getting smaller every day, so switching systems may not be so difficult in short time.
If this project succeds, there are going to be a lot of outlaws, and you bet I'll be one of them<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-).

Thanks,
Curly Howard,
Costa Rica.

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Re:Unrighteous research

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 04:17 PM
AMD is "supporting" palladium just like Intel...

#

AMD is in it too...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:50 AM
As someone just pointed out, AMD is in on Palladium as well as Intel and even IBM(iirc). It seems the only company really fighting it at the moment is Apple. That makes sense from Apple's point of view, after all, they just spent millions and millions on the Rip, Mix, Burn ad campaign (before the Switch campaign). I've never bought an Apple (i have a free Apple IIci around here somewhere:) but am seriously considering it for my next HW purchase.

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Re:Unrighteous research

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 12:09 AM
Don't buy AMD! They are in on it as well. Intel didn't want to have anything to do with palladium. But then MS teamed up with AMD, who saw Intel's hesitation as a major option to gain market shares. Intel was forced into the project when they were faced with the prospect of being excluded form the Windows-PC market.

#

I bought my last Microsoft OS a long time ago...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 01:52 PM
Mr. Stallman,

That is an excellent discourse on what will come with the age of "trusted" computing. As a longtime member of the world's first computer generation (My first system was an Atari 400 that had been customised and out-grown by my Father), I am thankful for the fantastic work being done by all the diverse people of the "Open Source & Free Software" Community. I want to say to all of you, "Great Job, and let's all keep the real progress going."

I have used and Administrated pretty much every operating system evironment that has been deployed widely in commercial environments, as a video game developer and software developer I have been forced to keep up with the cutting edge. This being said, contrary to the beliefs of Steve Ballmer and the FUD machine, the real innovation is being done every day, day in and day out by the members of the "Open Source and Free Software" Communities.

Every day this software progresses and offers new and inventive options that are under the control of the users. Unbeknownst to Steve Ballmer and the rest of his PR flaks and cronies, Linux, BSD, and hundreds of other notable "Free or Open Source" progress in stability, usefullness and capabilities. I can think of many of the products that are as good, or better than anything the propietary software vendors offer. These products get better all the time, adding features needed by users, responding to real world needs of those using the software, and benefitting from improvements and tweaks made by others.

I have continued to marvel at the improvements and progress of the Linux distros. Every revision seems to take true steps forward in quality, useability and innovation, things Microsoft has not been able to claim since Windows for Workgroups.

I have purchased my last Microsoft Product, It was contained in my Sony Vaio Multimedia Laptop, I waited until I could get a laptop running Windows 2000 pro, as my experience with other versions of their software told me that no other version of their OS was even close to acceptable. Even then, due to work compatibility issues, I had no other acceptable choice. Now I have another viable choice, If I have to, I will adopt my personal preferences company wide, and never buy another pre-built machine.. only ones I can have assembled in-house from components and install my own choice of Operating system, based on what work needs to be done, and where.

This is a good strategy for dealing with Palladium, only patronize vendors who sell clean machines, for personal or business use. DEMAND open standard components that meet your needs. Refuse to pay the Microsoft per-computer tax. Lets hit all the vendors in the only spot they ever listen too, thier wallets. Spread the word, no one wants these machines except the RIAA, and the other big media control cartels. Are they going to buy that "Palladium" machine for you? No, they might subsidise them, but the wont pay for you to have one. This is another big "DIVX" fiasco, a product they think is a real good idea, but seen as crippled by a public that has seen such scams before....

Refuse To Use Microsoft Products.. it really is that simple.

From Redmond
"Hiding from the Evil Flying MOnkeys"

#

Re:I bought my last Microsoft OS a long time ago..

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 02:47 PM
I started off with an XT and an early version of DOS. I used MSFT operating systems and application software all the way up through Win98.

That's where the advertising hype wore off and I stumbled out into the daylight.

Linux needs about a 10-15% market penetration to stop this betrayal of the American public. At that point it will be too big to simply push aside and Microsoft will be forced to accomodate it. It seems rather clear that the DOJ lacks the gonads to do the job. "We, the people" will have to.

#

Re:I bought my last Microsoft OS a long time ago..

Posted by: flacco on October 22, 2002 03:17 PM
It seems rather clear that the DOJ lacks the gonads to do the job. "We, the people" will have to.


In that case we are fucked.

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Re:I bought my last Microsoft OS a long time ago..

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 09:18 PM

Refuse to Use Microsoft Products.. it really is that simple.


Is this the start of the "RUMP" campaign?

#

Re:I bought my last Microsoft OS a long time ago..

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 07:36 AM
RUMP? - Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah - yes -thats a good'un -<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

#

Re:I bought my last Microsoft OS a long time ago..

Posted by: Tahir Hashmi on October 23, 2002 11:15 AM
Can I use that phrase and acronym? I'll be glad to attribute it to you guys if you please<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

#

You have my permission to use my words

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 03:22 AM
Hey code_martial,

I am the poster of the original comments "I bought my last Microsoft OS a long time ago.." I certainly had no idea that my "Refuse to Use Microsoft Products" would fit an acronymn like "RUMP" so perfectly.

I would be honored if you chose to use it in any campaign to promote "Open Source & Free Software" alternatives. I can't take credit for turning the words into the "RUMP" acronym, as that was done by a follow up posting.

I would be happy to place any "RUMP" bumper stickers all over the Microsoft Campus

Sincerely,

J Carnell
Director
Digital-Ghost Studios
www.digital-ghost.com

#

eh

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 04:06 PM
revolution comes to mind if things persist.

#

What to do about MS

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 04:14 PM
Bar them from the OS scene and open source the crap. Maybe someone else can fix it.

Free as in speech

#

Re:What to do about MS

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:40 AM
The only problem with this is that Microsoft represents a sizable portion of the US economy. This would have to be applied at the federal level, and would the federal government give up that much tax money for no monetary gain on thier part?

#

Re:What to do about MS

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:52 AM
Faulty thinking here. MS has created a monopoly in which only they can play. I suggest that if MS went away today, there would be an explosion of TRUE innovation. As it stands today, companies do not innovate in the win32 platform since MS can play fast and loose with the APIs, then clone their product, and use their huge leverage in the OS market to put these people out of business. This was the basis for their Office product. Everything in it is a copy of other peoples work. For years MS tried to clone Access Software's Links golf simulator. Their lame cloning programmers could not do it, and Access Software was bought, lock, stock, and barrell. They no longer exist. MS was able to do this because of their monopoly, price fixing, and overcharging their customers for shoddy products has lined their pockets with the ill gotten gains of the wealth of this country. Putting MS out of business is the best thing that could happen.

#

Re:What to do about MS

Posted by: newjoiseyboy on November 06, 2002 12:42 AM
Who said that Microsoft was paying taxes?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-P

They use every loophole in the book and then some to avoid paying as much tax as possible.

The biggest problem is not the fact that Microsoft is paying taxes. The problem is that they are such a huge part of the economy now that removing them will cause a sharp decrease in the short term and will take a long time to get out of.

#

Want to know more...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 06:18 PM
This article is very interesting indeed. It is very important that Trusted Computing doesn't take away our rights. So, I agree 100% with Richard about the fact that "We, the public, ought to have both the freedom and the ability to share these things. (I expect that someone will find a way to produce unencrypted versions, and to upload and share them, so DRM will not entirely succeed, but that is no excuse for the system.)".
I would therefore be very interested in reading your book (http://www.gnu.org/doc/book13.html). So, could you provide me with a URL where I can freely download it please?

#

THIS is the VERY reason why I switched

Posted by: TBethlehem on October 22, 2002 06:42 PM
I started to see it coming down the not-too-distant road, this forced ethics/morals computing. It's my computer, my choice, my life. Nobody can tell me what I can and cannot do with my own property!

I just hope (and pray) that somehow, someway, m$ does something really stupid/bad and hurts their public image worldwide and they practically lose most of their user base. Maybe, just maybe, this whole DRM and pladium nonsense will be obvious to more than just the geeks. Maybe people will begin to find out that it's the "big brother" os.

People are all about keeping to themselves, not having morals/ethics shoved down their throats, doing what they want and when they want to (illegal or not). Hopefully this will backfire on m$! I just wish it would be sooner than later.

#

They need something to switch to

Posted by: Yanthor on October 23, 2002 03:27 AM
I agree with you completely. The problem is, for Microsoft to lose user base, the need something to lose it to. Right now, if OEMs wanted to install an alternative OS, there is not one polished enough and useable enough for the average person to use.

Yes, I know there is Linux. I like Linux and use it on my server at home, but Linux is not useable by the average person for their desktop OS. Period. My mother-in-law asked me 4 really stupid computer questions this week, and that was regarding Windows! Yes, I do believe she is too stupid to use a computer. But she bought a computer because she wants to use the functions a computer offers. We've got at least 100 million users like that in the U.S. alone. She is normal. Until an alternative operating system exists that is at least as easy to use as Windows in every way Windows in some form will persist to be dominant.

I believe one reason they don't exist is because of Microsoft's heavy handed tactics, which is why the anti-trust trial is so important! But that's a completely different topic. See how everything is tied together?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

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Re:They need something to switch to

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 06:40 AM
You know, I've read here and other places the all too familiar excuse of "Until they make an OS that is easy to use as Windows in every way"... then this is followed (or preceded) by "my relative asked x stupid questions about..." Well, there you go. What is the difference between a stupid question regarding Windows or Linux? Is it that you can't answer one (or either?) Do you really discount the intelligence of your relatives that much? Is this a reflection on you?

#

Re:They need something to switch to

Posted by: newjoiseyboy on November 06, 2002 12:46 AM
It's an observable fact that people who are younger are generally much more computer-literate than those who are older, with the obvious exceptions.

The thing is, it's the older people that will continue to buy computers, either for personal or corporate use.

Will the younger people get older quick enough?

#

Thank you Richard.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 07:32 PM
I met Richard in Brussels beginning of this year. I forgot to thank him at the time (and I wasn't the only one).

 
The problem of western society is that it is driven by greed. When we have all we need, we are supposed to want more in order to keep the economy working, even if this is at the expense of every one else. I cannot imagine what Bill Gates and many of his share holders can need to make a decent living, and yet they want more even if this means forcing poor people in India, and other poor countries, to by their lousy software.

 
At the conference in Brussels this year, someone asked Rms how he could make the same money while having his systems open sourced. Richard answered him that he probably couldn't, but that sometimes it is more important to make a living and to do what is moraly right than to make a lot of money. I think that this is what Richard and GNU are about. Let him have his radical points of view because till now he has been right. In a way Rms remind me of my friend David Duke. I think both are very intelligent and could have made a very good living but they preferred to be financially poor (I'm not sure for rms but I can tell you that david isn't wealthy) and stand for what they believe in.

 
emmanuel

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Re:Thank you Richard.

Posted by: zangdesign on October 23, 2002 05:21 AM
I'm no fan of RMS, but AFAIK, but I would not be ashamed to shake his hand, unlike that racist lowlife, David Duke. Duke may stand for what he believes in, but his beliefs are morally corrupt and unrealistic.

You are comparing apples and engine blocks.

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Re:Thank you Richard.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:53 AM
Have you met any of them? Or do you base your jugment on what the controlled media say? I don't expect Microsoft to say much good about RMS so why should the media say any good about DD. Because met both of them and i know one of them quite well, i am sure that neither of them is corrupt, their only concern is to counter the power o the too mighty and give it back to the people.

#

Re:Thank you Richard.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 09:53 AM
My apologies - I must have the wrong David Duke. The David Duke I know of is a former head of the Ku Klux Klan, a white racist organization.

#

Re:Thank you Richard.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:23 AM
I think wanting no control on intellectual property is also greedy. The problem isn't "greed" if that is defined as maximizing benefit. The problem is blind greed, where you fail to realize that you derive personal benefit from the society's use of intellectual peroperty. When you maximize immediate profit, you may not recognize that you are eliminating future profit by strangling other's ability to create new products and markets.

Capitalism is the worst system of economic management, except for all of the others. Monopolies are the opposite of free markets. They are controlled markets. It isn't "greed" we must fight (which I view as mere self-interest), it is selfishness. It is shortsightedness. We need to cultivate the recognition that the state of the commonweal is part of our own state. If we could somehow come to understand that "greed" or "self-interested" included the commonweal in some proportion, it would fix a great deal of what is broken. "I'm looking out for numero uno" must become "I'm looking out for numero uno 80% and I'm looking out for you 20%." It wouldn't be the perfect society, but it would be a much better society.

#

Greed is Good!!!

Posted by: grkhetan on October 23, 2002 04:37 PM
Your point of greed as harmful is incorrect. Greed keeps the economy running....(that you have pointed out correctly), since people keep on wanting more and they keep buying things..

But the most important thing is that they try to come up with new ideas and new businesses for money...that makes for innovation and progress..

If nobody had greed then everybody would be content with what they have, and they wont try to come up with new ideas. Where will they work? The chain of work will not be formed, since there would no person with big vision and big greed to form a company and employ people - everybody will just work for themselves - _make_ their own house, _make_ their own tools, food, and survive.

This is stupidity. American people's greed has developed their economy, gave them one of the highest qualities of life, and they are the inventor of over one-ohird of All New Knowledge that the planet generates.

Keep in mind. I am _not_ an American.

#

Re:Greed is Good!!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 03:35 PM
Greed has its place, however, I think an economic cap would be a good idea. If the economy goes up, so does the cap so it only affects the biggest of corporations and forces them to do some social good. After you reach a certain level of profit, a certain amount must go to the government for social purposes(Universal health care, schools, etc..) This would only affect the big corporations and benefit "the little guy".

#

Re:Greed is Good!!!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 05, 2002 11:42 AM
Did you know, that originally, corporations were actually chartered, for the public good?

#

Rest of the world

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 09:50 PM
I would also like to understand how the whole system would work for computers that are outside the united states government control.

#

Re:Rest of the world

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:42 AM
Simple: They are exported from places under the control of the US government, or from places (i.e, Taiwan) which wouldn't dare oppose it.

-- Michael Melanson, VE3MTM
73 33

#

Re:Rest of the world

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:15 AM
When I went to purchase my Dell laptop earlier this year (made in Ireland, shipped to the UK) I was informed that I *could not* purchase it without XP and that running up Mandrake on it would void my warranty - period. Now do you see how it works? And anyway, if enough people outside the US resist, I am sure GWB will find some 'terrorist threat' in their country and bomb the brown stuff out of them!

#

Re:Rest of the world

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 06:18 AM
If company X in the USA wants to do business with you and starts sending you Palladium encapsulated emails how are you going to read them ? or respond ? How long do you think you can keep business flowing when your competitors and customers are using the new MS-Word-for-Palladium format and you aren't ? Word is too well embedded on the corporate desktop to simply go away, and it's not the only application. How can you change corporate culture ? The only thing I can think of is to not use the new Word format unless it's absolutely vital. Ask for options. What formats could they accept ? Make them convert from another format using an import filter. Waste their time. Get enough people doing this and another format could get accepted into the mainstream.

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Re:Rest of the world

Posted by: Glanz on October 23, 2002 06:27 AM
Simple.... they won't... The US will be alone in its LACK OF FREEDOM and its fascist pig control. There will be two WWW's... One sugared inoffensive one with no content for Americans, and a truly free one everywhere else in the world.

#

Ok, maybe it is time to act

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 09:52 PM
If Stallman is correct with his analysis and all signs seems to point that way. Then What? Using GNU linux would only be a stop gap. What happens to GNU when the hardware being offered has the treachery on the motherboard? Pretty much at that point Open Source has to die or come up with a way to develop open source hardware without the treachery built in.

Now long before that point EFF should be championing that any form of treachery software is a infringement on 1st admendment rights according in US law. As it is now DMA is leading us to a situation where physical property rights become secondary to IP rights. Who the hell voted for that? If that battle is lost pretty much the use of computers for non business purposes will slowly cease. Then have not the record and film industries killed the golden goose?

The suits had better look a little further down the road. An early win may ultimately ruin their futures in the digital age. Would it be better to live in a business where maybe 5% is lost to theft but you are able to deliver 95% in an ondemand digital delivery? In most industries that level of loss rate would be considered outrageously good fortune.

But I think Stallman has lost sight of one point. Why copy Microsoft? I understand that for most purposes right now MS Office is the defacto standard. But does it need to be that way? Many view Open Source as innovative. Why not leap beyond MS's offerings? Pull the usage of Open Source beyond the trappings of MS. In so doing, a migration away from MS will occur. Open Source will not win being just a 'Me Too' application platform.

The one tactical advantage that Open Source has over propiertary software is sheer size. A large team of volunteers can beat a paid for effort every time. MS knows this. That is why they are using the FUD tool all over the world. They realise that in a war for features, over the long haul the chance for them to lose is large. The economics of that war are to Open Sources favor. Use it....

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Re:Ok, maybe it is time to act

Posted by: Glanz on October 23, 2002 05:28 AM
The only way to combat this is via "pro"active aggression, not sniveling to elected officials who are more interested in fattening their pockets than in protecting the freedom of their constituents. Sometimes, the only way to get an angry, crazy dog out of your path is with a good swift kick in the head.

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Re:Ok, maybe it is time to act

Posted by: fitzix on October 23, 2002 06:47 AM
Full on political actions are needed.

We need to take to the streets and protest the government and big media companies.

We need to take it to their doors and remind them who they serve: the consumer.

We do not serve them, they serve us.

Let's make them understand this.

#

Just wait until some cracker cracks that.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2002 11:54 PM
The reason for this is that Windows is wholey holey. It was not designed for security. Most Windows users and corporations do not realize how cracked Windows really is.

#

Re:Just wait until some cracker cracks that.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 09:28 AM
Too scared to crack it... DMCA

#

My Issues with Mr. Stallmans Article

Posted by: Doctor Digital on October 23, 2002 12:20 AM
Dear Mr. Stallman,

Your radical, pedantic, paranoid, and militant attitudes expressed in your article are, in my opinion patently optimistic. In this day and age when there are ads on the back of supermarket receipts, theatre popcorn bags, and quite soon I suppose, written in very small letters on the inside of the bottom of my soft drink can, I would put NOTHING past ANY government or corporate prostitute.

In a real court case I read about, there was an individual who had filed suit against a supermarket for falling on unlabeled wet floors. This supermarket apparently searched thier data regarding his purchases with his "Savings Card" (called this no doubt because they are saving the data gathered for their benefit, not the customers). They brought into evidence that his pruchases had frequently included beer and "inferred" that he was probably drunk when he fell. Wake up all, Big Brother is not only watching, but is now recording, categorizing, and datbasing the hell out the info! Trustworthy computing indeed. I actually purchased XP and upon reading the EULA during the first part of install, I rebooted and installed Linux. McSoft is not worthy of my trust. Many other companies are not either.

Open Source is not easy. The right thing to do frequently takes more effort. Linux and other tools sometimes don't appear to install as easy or are as usable as other products sometimes do. I personally have not found this to be the case particularly with new releases. Many Open Source apps are better and more well thought out than many proprietary ones. When the problem is perceived, it usually exsists for one of two reason:

  • The product has to interface with a closed API or "non-standard standard". So the research to fully implement it takes longer.
  • The product is being authored by a tiny band of folks (or single individual) that has only so much bandwidth and is probably working a regular job as well.


When my older sons were using chat tools to connect to AOL or other Chat sites, they usually were there to electronically yap back and forth about "This band sucks" or "This car is better than that car", I took the opportunity to show them X-Chat. I had written an article about it and other Linux-based Internet tools and gave them a crash course in what IRC is really like and how it started. When they found out they could create their own "rooms" (channels) and power of "ChanOp" status, they were dumbfounded. The new power they felt made them learn the rest fast. They also were then exposed to some intelligent chat about pertinent subjects. They got the double-whammy of knowledge. Learned a new tool and skill, plus got to exchange ideas with others on subjects that mattered.

My answer:

Look for markets that do not use Savings Cards or when asked for your saving card at a market that does, tell them that if you do not get the discount without the card you will take you business elsewhere. Buy produce from roadside stands were possible (its probably better anyway). Visit Co-Ops for other needs. Try not to be tempted to buy products with rebates as this is the other major method of data collection. Vote with your wallet and your ballot. Contact companies that may be a source for this "stealth" technology and make them aware that you will not purchase products or services from them if they supoprt this kind of backstabbing of there customers. I would love to see us stop altogether for a few months because that would send a hell of a message, but even if we just slow the sale of software, music, and video, the powers that be will get the idea that we are "Mad as hell and not going to take it anymore". This works especially well if we EMail companies and inform them why we are withholding the "keys" to our financial kingdom. We might just practice a little of what McSoft does all the time. Hit companies where thay live, in the wallet. Anybody have a current list of the names of the companies McSoft has put under with their "FUD and Financial" tactics? A modern companies' greatest fear is an informed consumer.

Contact ALL your local representatives, send them a copy of Richards article (with copyright info intact of course), and let them know they will not receive your vote or the vote of anyone you can talk out of it. Inform, Inform, Inform. Us Geeks are aware of a lot of technology. Teach relatives, friends, bosses, and total strangers about Open Source and whatever technology is available that can violate their privacy or place them at a disadvatage.

Finally, cultivate a sense of what you "need" as opposed to what you "want". Get involved in organizations that sponser youth activities. Get 'em while their young was Apples way of become a hit in schools. Volunteer to teach a class on Open Source software in a High School (they may already know at that age). Talk to people about what is going to be taken away from them. There are only two ways to generate true self esteem. One is to set a goal for oneself (or have one set for you) and accomplish that goal. The other is to do something that benefits someone else.

Remember the old adage "Your not paranoid if they really are out to get you". Also, contrary to what many of you may all think, I am not ready to move to the woods and buy ammo. All you need to do to get my attitude is read the Findings of Fact in the MCSoft vs. DOJ trail.

Doctor Digital

"Play fair, or get out of the game"

#

Re:My Issues with Mr. Stallmans Article

Posted by: Glanz on October 23, 2002 05:21 AM
>>>

That is the truth!

#

Hilarious

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 12:31 AM
I love the fact that as I was reading the article there was a nice large Microsoft Small Business Server had flashing in my face. Just poetic isn't it?

#

I hope this is stopped

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:20 AM
This is crazy, I thought this country was a democracy. This is something you would expect a comunist country to do. This goes angainst some of our freedoms. Of course most of the US lawmakers are greety so a big payoff might convince them to pass it.

#

Re:I hope this is stopped

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 09, 2002 05:03 AM
You americans... If it is a dictature, then it must be communists. Well let me tell you that this modern, pseudo-democratic country has it's share of surveillance, murder, brutal torture, executions and mischief. And those are common to every fascist countries, not communist countries. Think china's police is brutal? Let's check the LAPD.

Welcome to 1984 guys. You people are so self-jerking that you can't even see that we live in a totalitarian state. Just see who voters elected. Does that count anyway?

Today, as we speak, all of you animals are to be indexed in a giant clustered Oracle database, graciously provided by uber-dictator Ellison. The governement agencys are carnivoring, filing, fingerprinting and racial profiling you.

Were now in a state of paranoia. I'm just waiting for them to rename Dept of Defense to Dept of Love and i'll be setteled.

I hoped i would be dead the day that happened. Unfortunately the US won't bomb their own population for a few years to come, until that run out of ideas for a new holocaust or war.

Good luck you geeks

#

Thought Crime

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 01:23 AM
After reading this, I can see a time in the very near future when we Linux
users will become thought criminals, criminals because we choose to think
as free people, not as $laves to M$ and Big Brother.
In the USSR typewriters and copiers had to be registered with the State.
If you were caught with and unregistered typewriter or copier you would get
a bullet in the back of the head from your friendly local KGB agent.

We will soon be moving into one of the most oppressive times that man has
ever know. Freedom of ANY sort will be a faint and quickly fading memory.
Dissenters will be "disappeared"
Only government approved media will be permitted. You will watch, read and
listen to only the things that are permitted and only in the ways and
places permitted under the new laws.

Soon, AIR (yes, the stuff you breath) will be taxed, restricted, and you
will have to sign a EULA to breath because AIR is a medium that may be used
to transport audio waves. Since ALL music and speech is restricted and
controlled, all mediums that may be used to transport music and speech will
be controlled. If you breach your AIR EULA they will take your AIR RIGHTS
away.

I'm not trying to be funny, I can see some jerk trying to pass a BS
law such as that. At some point in time this must come to a stop.
There are clauses in the Constitution that give LEGAL MEANS for the people
to oust an oppressive government. We quickly approach that point. I
suggest that people get copies of the constitution and read up on it very
carefully. Somewhere in there, like in maybe the FIRST AMMENDMENT, there
is some little mention about the right of free speech and press shall NOT
be infringed. It goes a little something like this.

(Maybe you should print this out and pass it to your friends, family and
even strangers, especially WINDOWS users....)

Of course to be sure I am committing a crime by posting this document.
If so, let them come and TRY to take me away for exercising my right to FREE
SPEECH. (Bring plenty of sack lunches, plenty of help and body bags...)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitut<nobr>i<wbr></nobr> on.billofrights.html
Amendment I


  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II


  A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,
the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III


  No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the
consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed
by law.

Amendment IV


  The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V


  No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in
actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be
subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb;
nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against
himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process
of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just
compensation.

Amendment VI


  In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy
and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein
the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been
previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause
of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have
compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the
assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII


  In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried
by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States,
than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII


  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX


  The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X


  The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
to the people.

#

RMS being light handed

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:05 AM
Though I do aften agree with what RMS says in his writings, I often find his peices a little to 'heavy handed' for me. To my suprise, this artical seems almost sedated. It talks about the main problems with things like Palladium, and hints at the perifiary things that it could effect, but I think it doesn't go far enough. Something like Palladium has the ability, in a society so dependant on computers, to really change the fabric of how we live and who we are for the very worst. As I see it, something like this has no good thing to offer individuals, groups, people and consumers as a whole, or society in general. It just serves to prop up the aging monopolies of dinasaure companies that couldn't react to changeing markets. In all likely hood, the negative impacts of something like this scheme could destabalise the entire social structure of society. Far heavier stuff than anything RSM mentions.

#

Trust is earned, NOT assumed

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:29 AM
Several years ago, Intel had a plan to start shipping CPUs (I think they were PIIIs) with hardware IDs which could be accessed remotely. After users expressed major resistance to the proposal due to privacy concerns, Intel ultimately dropped the proposal. When Microsoft started requiring activation of the OS for a specific computer, some users moved to alternative OSs such as Linux.

In the absence of a monopoly, we have a choice. I am 100% against piracy but policies such as these violate privacy and effectively limits legitimate uses of the products. If one buys a video tape or CD, should one be limited to playing it on a specific VCR or CD player? If one has a CD player in the house and in the car, does that mean that we are required to buy two copies of the same CD so that we can enjoy the same music in both places? The answer is absolutely not.

This latest initiative by Microsoft and Intel will give another boost to Linux and open source software. Users should voice their objections and more importantly, users must VOTE with their wallets.

#

Sun, Transmeta, VIA??

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:36 AM
We all know that AMD & Intel are supporting TCPA technologies, what of the other chip makers? Have any of them made it public that they will not EVER be producing TCPA compliant chips?

#

Re:Sun, Transmeta, VIA??

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 08:39 AM
That's a good question. I have been contacting the mfgs that are not officially on either side of this issue. Basically I am telling them that I will only buy non-TCPA hardware.

This time is a great time for companies brave enough to stay off the bandwagon. There are some issues more important than pure performance.

#

Re:Sun, Transmeta, VIA??

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:02 AM
That's why they want to pass laws requiring all hardware manufacturers to build this stuff in.

#

First time I agree with Stallman

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:08 AM
I never agree with RMS. Even when I come close to agreeing with him, I think he goes so far from reality that I end up disagreeing with his end point.
Unfortunately, I think this time he is perfectly on target.
The few recourses that would have been available to users saddled with Palladium are blocked by DMCA.

#

Monopolosoft Con-puting

Posted by: Glanz on October 23, 2002 05:12 AM
Richard
I'm with you on this and have been for quite a while. I saw thin coming for quite a while now and have been writing and posting about it at ExtremeTech, between my Linux articles. You wouldn't believe all the MS apologists and defenders there are out there. The slightest mention of mistrust about Microsoft's [mis]trusted computing initiative and I could expect hundreds of flames. Unfortunately, there are so many brainwashed victims of the Stockholm syndrome using Monopolosoft playtime tellytubbyesque products that allies won't be easy to find in the "mainstream"... Don't forget that it is this same mainstream that has so quietly given up their rights in the name of the "fight against terrorism". They fail even to see that MS is making deals for backdoors in the future in exchange for a certain immunity against monopolistic practices and general immorality in its business dealings. Fortunately, citizens of every country in the world see this. The fearful and victimized American is the only one that doesn't. Soon MS will be introducing MS-specific hardware and will try to make it an industry standard so as to exclude other Operating Systems and protocols accepted by the world. We'll see what happens.

In any case, I will be around for the organization and for the fight.

Ralph Glanz

#

Can you trust your computer

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 06:34 AM
I agree with RMS on MS proposed trusted computing, but one can understand why media industries want to protect their revenues from piracy and will back this MS proposal. I think that media artists and software developers need and should get the monetry rewards for their efforts. So maybe RMS and the open scource community could work on a system where every access to an artists media or software work is is debted from the user to the artist at every use.... fractions of cents per usage that would cut out all this bs from MS.?

#

Re:Can you trust your computer

Posted by: Glanz on October 23, 2002 08:47 PM
I did not post this motherf*&*&^% Message!!!!

#

Right on!

Posted by: jm4n on October 23, 2002 07:24 AM
I have absolutely nothing against Richard Stallman, not at all. I do, however, generally disagree with some of the things he says, as I usually feel he goes a bit over the top.

However, on this article, I agree 100%. He addresses the issues with Palladium et al, explains why these things can be a problem, and makes a lot of sense.

I personally hope this never catches on. I know a lot of flack was taken by Intel with their "processor serial number", and Trusted Computing is much, much worse. Unfortunately, they are putting a FUD spin on it ("Trusted Computing" might sound like a Good Thing to the uninformed).

The sad thing is, Joe Average doesn't understand the implications of this. My dad said he can't wait for Palladium, so he doesn't have to worry about "those damned viruses". I just cringe when I think about that...

Anyway, Richard, thanks for attempting to get this issue out in the open, and for doing so in a professional manner. Again, I have no problem with your other articles; perhaps none have "hit home" like this one, and I only now see where you are coming from.

- Justin Nelson aka Jm4n

#

Who do you trust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 07:48 AM
Just recently I was mulling over the idea of trust in computing and came to the conclusion that it's really just a question of where you stop thinking about it.

If you trust your apps, then your OS must be trust which means that your drivers and such must be trusted which means trusting the people who wrote them, their systems and tools as well as all the hardware and software involved in getting things between them and yourself.

I don't recall who it was attributed to but there was some story I heard about someone who hacked the login program to provide a back door, then hacked the compiler to re-insert that back door if someone ever detected it and removed it and further, hacked the compiler to recognize if it was compiling a compiler which had been "untainted" so in effect, if you had a tainted compiler you couldn't have a secure, compiled-from-source system without at some point trusting some other machine to fix your system that used a completely unrelated compiler.

Now ask yourself what exactly *do* all of the little chips, wires, boards and conduits in your computer do. If you don't know, then you're taking a leap of faith. I'm not saying this is wrong so much as saying that we should be conscious of it and understand that we'll never be 100% justified in trusting anything. Sometimes "so far, so good" is good enough.

#

Re:Who do you trust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:07 AM
I know kernighan or ritchie wrote about that.

#

Get a Mac

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 08:11 AM
Microsoft wants world domination. And right now they have such a large percentage of the market that they think they can do anything. They are evil. You all know it, but you act like there are no alternatives. Just get a Mac. Don't dismiss this idea immediately because of the ignorant things others have told you. Mac OS X truly is the best OS out there.

#

Trust me :-) ......... What does that really mean?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 08:35 AM
Wow! Pretty potent stuff I'm reading here. Isn't there a joke about what someone really means when they say "Trust me" ? Trust is a pretty word, but without it's companion, Respect, it is just that - a pretty word. I cannot place trust in anyone or anything that I have little or no respect for.

When I read such Big Brother type articles, my blood starts boiling. I try to remind myself that for every one who says that you can't do that or you have to do this, another will say "BS" . As I see it, those Powers-that-be that try to force something on us that we don't want will end up cutting their own throats. Human nature being what it is, we can put up with a lot of crap, but step over that invisibly drawn line, and all hell will break loose.

This country was founded by militants and dissidents who opposed the tyrannical English rule. Now I see the same thing happening here in the very country that was based on freedom of individual rights founded by those forefathers. America has become a slumbering giant. But I have faith, and I have hope. When the "feces" hits the fan, I know where I stand and will make a stand. Open war on individual rights is coming, right now I see it in a "cold war" phase, but that invisibly drawn line is close to being crossed.

I'm not a violent person. I live by respect. I respect you and you respect me. That doesn't mean we have to agree on everything. If everyone thought the same, we would cease as individuals and life would be pretty boring. It is our individuality that makes life rich and interesting.

Taking away my freedom of choosing how I want to use my bought-and-paid-for products show a lack of respect for my right to choose. Where's the trust in that? The more they keep pushing their own beliefs on us and how they want us to live our lives by chipping away our freedom as individuals, the closer they are to crossing that line. So let them push, let them chip away at our individuality, and watch what happens.

#

Re:Trust me :-) ......... What does that really me

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 08:46 AM

There are about 3 alternatives to Intel CPUs, and a bajiliion
alternatives to IBM and HP. It seems to me that without government
legislation to force all PCs to have the built-in security
dongle, there is no way "treacherous" computing threatens me.

In fact, I can't imagine Intel putting ugly 3rd brake lights on all their
cars unless all other manufacturers are forced to do so as well. It
would be a marketing fiasco.

Plus, any coersion between Microsoft and Intel to force people to buy
Intel CPUs with security dongles would bring up anti-trust issues.
They have to have government help to pull this off.

So why isn't Stallman asking for support in lobbying the government?
There is where the potential danger lies, IMHO.

If I were Intel, I'd take any NRE money that Microsoft/Hollywood gave me for
this stillborn idea, produce some chips for them, and laugh all the way
to the bank. This is alot like the DivX DVD fiasco, and without 100%
alignment of all the manufacturers, it will play out the same. You
won't see the needed alignment without laws.

#

Re:Trust me :-) ......... What does that really me

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 10:56 AM
"....This is alot like the DivX DVD fiasco, and without 100%
alignment of all the manufacturers, it will play out the same."

You've hit the nail on the head there. In economics class, I was taught this is the reason cartels don't work. The railroads tried it in the last century and it failed. OPEC is the only halfway successful cartel going, mostly because Saudi Arabia (who has the biggest oil reserves) is holding out on a matter of principle and the others want to stay in SA's favor, even though a couple of the other OPEC countries try to undersell. Someone will always try to cut the other's throuat to gain a larger foothold in the maket.

But man is passionate by nature, and just the thought of going too far can spark a war. Perceived threats are just as valid as real threats and can cause wars, whether civil or otherwise. "Us against them" is a prevalent attitude in the US. So I still see a war coming on, until mankind as a whole reaches a higher level of maturity. All this political maneuvering means that the lines of battle are being drawn, it's only a matter of time. I always hope that something comes along to push aside such matters, but I will also keep my eyes and ears open.

#

Talk about your FUD

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 10:27 AM
Try reading what Palladium really is, and what it really does.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/<nobr>j<wbr></nobr> ul02/0724palladiumwp.asp
or better
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default<nobr>.<wbr></nobr> asp?url=/technet/security/news/PallFAQ2.asp
I won't waste my time explaining it to you, but this is actually good for everyone.

#

Re:Talk about your FUD

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:10 AM
Both the links are broken.

Got your point, thanks<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

#

Re:Talk about your FUD

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:13 AM
Does microsoft automatically remove pages that
are too-often accessed without first accessing
one of their portal pages?

#

Re:Talk about your FUD

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 04:50 AM
Here is the link on Palladium. I don't think people here really understand what the Palladium does. On the otherhand I am not suggesting we all go out and buy Palladiums
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default<nobr>.<wbr></nobr> asp?url=/technet/security/news/PallFAQ2.asp

#

Re:Talk about your FUD

Posted by: fitzix on October 24, 2002 06:56 AM
Sure, it's good for you.

Kind of like driving gasoline powered cars is "good for you."

Sort of like having an idiot in the white house is "good for you."

A little bit similar to how having someone put a gun to your head for the rest of your life and making you work 16 hours of labor is "good for you." Sure, you'll never have the added stress of making a decision and you'll be fitter than you've ever been. Who needs freedom in that scenario?

Sadly, though - good for you is not good for me.

#

The CBDTPA

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:01 AM
I just realized today that calling the CBDTPA the Consume But Don't Try Programming Act is a very good description of it. If programmers are required to incorporate copy protection into any software they write, how do we satisfy that while teaching people the basics of programming? We have to move entirely to interpreted or bytecode-compiled languages (which might be a good idea if it was our *choice*) so that the interpreter could take care of the copy protection.

And Eric Raymond said that learning to be a hacker (using the term with the positive meaning) with proprietary operating system was like dancing with a body-cast. Try it behind one of these "firewalls" - after all, it's duty is to keep you out of most of the contents of your computer.

#

This will start a war.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 02:18 PM
There are people out there that will not lay down for this. They WILL take the system down.

People and government have come to depend to much on computers and the Internet.

When a few bright and radical revolutionaries have been pushed too far they will shut down the planet.

Imagine the chaos of it all. No power. Utilities everywhere gone haywire. No communications. No transportation.

Riots will ensue, people will burn entire cities to the ground. Countries and governments will implode as they lose control over the people. There are not enough soldiers and police to put 375 million pissed off people under control.

They are pushing 1984 on the people and it WILL come back and bite them in the *ss.

Smell the darkness, it smells like smoke. Hear the darkness, it screams. The future is dark for the oppressors..

#

Re:This will start a war.

Posted by: fitzix on October 24, 2002 06:58 AM

This reminds me of a passage towards the end of Fight Club.

#

Free Software exists also for Windows!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 03:39 PM
There is an excellent site for free software under windows : <A HREF="http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/">
http://gnuwin.epfl.ch</a gnuwin.epfl.ch>. There are over 60 applications, a glossary and articles about the free software movement and its philosophy. They also put up ISO images. Burn and enjoy!

#

The anwer to your worries

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 05:06 PM
Just purchase China's <A HREF="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5613">dragon cpu</a theinquirer.net>, run Linux, and vote for the <A HREF="http://www.greenpartyus.org/">Green party</a greenpartyus.org>.

#

Microsoft Will Lose

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 06:40 PM
Microsoft is trying to capitalize on non computer literate consumers. I think that this whole thing also has something to do with the fact that the United States is having economic and international problems.

In the first place all of the enterprise operating systems are owned by the United States. This is because of the cost of research and development as well as support. But remember that basically all of the major technological systems originated as monopolies (telephone, railway, electicity, telegraph,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...computer).

Look it, they can do whatever they want with it, even if that means shoving it up their asses. Don't feel bad. What we need to do is simplify the technology and concentrate on decentralizing the power of corporations in the computer industry by providing instructions to developers about how to build our own systems.

Look it, these systems are implemented in the C programming language. It appears taht C/C++ is a systems implementation langauge, however in order to properly build systems, the designers much have either of these requirements: they must know the details of the implementation of the operating system, they must control the interfaces, or they must build on an open standard (for example the hardware architecture that used to be vendor neutral). Up until this time only vendors could apply C/C++ sucessfully. They created middleware frameworks (class heirarchies that promoted reusable design in the form of an intermediate langauge). Through middleware support corporations create domain centric solutions, not systems.

Here is the problem. Mr. Stallman should promote open source development, not just Linux. He should also talk about system development, portability, and communication standards. A lot of work needs to be done in laying out plans for software architecture development, system development. Someone has to begin to break it down so that the average Joe can build his own operating system. That system only needs to support basic functions and the individuals needs, but we must have templates. We must diversify on many hardware architectures, we have to become invinsible.

#

Know what's worse?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 09:27 PM
Microsoft can STEAL your IDEAS off of YOUR OWN computer and claim them as THEIR ideas. And you can NEVER prove that they were YOURS.

#

what a bunch of crap

Posted by: James M. Susanka on October 23, 2002 09:59 PM
I still have vhs in my house and will not buy one dvd until the dmca is ammended or revoked.
Now it looks like I won't be buying any new computers either. This is only way we can let the
big companies know what we think is hurt their bottom line!!
I received a new license agreement from my isp the other day and I had to email them to get in writing that they would not kick me out because I was using Linux. The agreement had language in it that gave them the right to do that but I wanted to get in writing that I won't or I would drop them - they emailed me back saying they won't - what a bunch of crap!!!
Now Microsoft can't beat Linux so now what do they do - go try to get it outlawed all in the name of they are trying to bolster the economy.
What a bunch of crap!!! Do our senators and congressman think they can get by with this crap?
I am watching and I am voting for people who don't support this crap or at least they say the don't till the campaign is over.
Thank goodness for folks like Richard - the US is an embarrassment and I am thinking of moving out of the country - you know one that is here for the people and not big money corporations. Some coutry that is founded on principles that I thought the US was founded on.

#

Re:what a bunch of crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:02 PM
the great thing about this country is that you can enact change. you don't have to go somewhere else - this is your land and my land. convince others to use their voting power. find people worthy of public service,and elect them. find a way to open the eyes of others so they can see the options beyond the republicrat party that has been leading them down this road for years. elections are just around the corner, and now is as good a time as any.

take 3 seconds and read this excerpt from the declaration of independence - serious stuff...
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

#

Re:what a bunch of crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 02:56 AM
Its the very prinicipals the US was founded on that led to its current state. None of this is happening in other countries because they know better than to hand complete control over to the private sector.

#

Re:what a bunch of crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 12:01 AM
Since when is "hand[ing] complete control over to the private sector" one of "the very principals the US was founded on"? I didn't find that one in the Declaration of Independence.

#

Re:what a bunch of crap

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 03:01 AM
Why not switch to a reasonable ISP?

http://www.speakeasy.net/

#

Only human...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2002 11:14 PM
That's how humans are: uninformed, without any other interests but sex, alcohol and crime and without any special knowledge they successively destroy the planet. Don't wonder if such a nasty creature buys Micro$oft products because for them, a computer is something with 'Intel' and, of course, Microsoft. You'll never ever change that, no matter how many times and how many people try to sign this or that petition. Leave them alone. Use something better, but don't complain. History shows us: mankind never learned anything at any time. So they are, and so they'll be 'till they finally disappear from this universe.

#

Re:Only human...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 01:14 PM
"That's how humans are: uninformed, without any other interests but sex, alcohol and crime and without any special knowledge they successively destroy the planet...."

This sums up a little of what I meant by mankind needing to mature in my post "Trust me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>......... What does that really mean?"

I like your advice of leaving them alone and I add they can leave me alone as well. In other word Respect for each other's likes and dislikes.

But I don't think some will let me decide what's best for me, human nature being what it is. If and when it comes to blows, I know where I stand and will fight for it. History also shows us that oppressors will always try to push their agenda upon others, and not everyone will take it without a fight. I will take the wait-and-see attitude, and keep my eyes and ears open. Let them mistake politeness and respect for weakness, that way they won't be prepared when I decide enough is enough. Sun Tzu had the right attitude in his treatise on The Art of War - don't be a bully, always be prepared, appear weak and confused to confound the enemy but when the time is right, strike swiftly and decisively.

I don't want to change their beliefs, that shows lack of respect on my part. You're right in that complaining does no good, but I will let them know if they go too far. The way to do that is by signing those petitions. I'm also not so foolish to think that pieces of paper will end the matter, human nature being what it is. But I will live my life as I see fit and fight for it if need be.

#

A list of supporters of trusted computing

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 12:28 AM
Listed in order of good to evil (the most evil being at the bottom)

Microsoft
Barney the Dino
RIAA
MPAA
CIA/FBI/NIS
Script kiddys
Big Brother
Anti-Capitalist terrorists around the world
Ludites
Sock people
and the colition of galatic races to see humans never reach space.
The Krull

PS. Satan's still holding out to corrupt kids with porn spam...

#

Trilateral Commision, Kennedy killed Elvis etc.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 03:00 AM
'... and "user secrets" -- but it put "user secrets" in quotation marks, recognizing that this is not what Palladium is really designed for.'

Can you really be sure that this is what is meant by the quotes Richard? Do you think they get off on risky in-jokes inserted into presentations?

This is mostly paranoia, presented as an introduction to the subject when it simply isn't fair. TCPA does actually have some merit (at least as an effort) to secure computer data against unwelcome intrusion. This does sometimes include "user secrets", Richard.

For a better introduction from a freedom/security angle check out Bruce Schnier's August Crypto-gram at http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-0208.html . It explains the intention, how it works and implications without the Big Brother incidiousness.

I hate MS as much as the next guy, am not one of their "apologists", support the EFF, and agree that media companies are pushing for this to protect media companies monopoly power, but there is more to it than just that.

Oh yea, to pre-empt the doubters, Bruce and I are actually part of a shady para-governmental organisation with ambitions for world domination... did I forget to mention?

#

Re:Trilateral Commision, Kennedy killed Elvis etc.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 24, 2002 10:51 AM
Bruce Schnier can kiss my ass, along with Microsoft and all the rest of the United States, the so called 'freedom loving countries', blah!

#

Is TC needed?

Posted by: FAllWOT on October 24, 2002 04:17 PM
IMNSHO, Trusted Computing is needed, but not in the way it seems to be going. This "rules server" should be an option. The person in control of a computer should be the person who installs and maintains it. In a business environment, this would be the admin. In a home environment, this would be one of the users.

 
When someone installs Longhorn (or whatever OS they're putting Palladium in), it should ask that person if they want it and, if they do, which computer should be the "rules server". This is the only case where it would make sense to me - otherwise its 1984.

 
Does anyone think that governments (think DARPA) would actually use Microsoft software with sensitive or classified information if they weren't "trusted". I think that one of the aims of the TCPA is to prevent the governments of the world from only using open source software.

 
Governments are already rejecting any proprietary software. In sunny South Africa (where I'm at), municipalities are already ditching proprietary software for OSS.

 
I went to a seminar on monday where we were told that a local municipality has switched from MS to SuSE Linux (for their servers and most of their desktops), and had a savings of over R1.4 million because of the eliminated licensing costs. At the same time, 97 % of their user problems over the past month have been from the 50 remaining (out of 160-odd) Windows users. This isn't good for MS, and its only the beginning. What about the other hundreds of municipalities in this, relatively, small country. What about all the other countries in Europe, America, Asia, and the rest of Africa?

 
If Microsoft wants to justify the R1.4 million (multiplied by government offices around the world), then they're damned-well gonna do it. Otherwise they're short on customers. Imagine it - MSFT at 2c and falling!

 
My 2c

#

Microsoft need a lesson.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2002 10:32 AM
I think that microsoft need a lesson

#

How to curtail evil

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 28, 2002 03:19 PM
This "trusted computing" movement by the listed cartel can be curtailed. Their motivation is and always will be money and not the good of the consumer base as illustrated quite elloquently by many author's herein. So, we, software developers, need to affect their consumer base. The best way to do this is to provide a viable alternative -- LINUX. Linux on 50% of the world computing communities' desktops could easily stifle this new technology.

Trouble is with "ease of use". My mother, family, hell, just about everyone i know is somewhat computer illiterate and so Windows gives them a fairly easy to use application to guide their pc. What if linux and all the applications built for linux were just as easy to install and run? The power of linux and the ease of use of a mac, now we're talking. Developer's everywhere, myself included, have failed miserably providing easy to install and use applications for the general public. Cryptic key sequences, hard to remember commands, impossible(for many) installation procedures, pathetic configuration methods, etc... keep a ton of people away from the linux platform. If we really intend to do something about this we need to get better and fast and take away the buck that M$ and the other's have to gain. Face it, we haven't offered a viable alternative to 98/ME/2000/XP to the general (computer illiterate) community.

#

Re:How to curtail evil

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 02, 2002 09:02 PM
No viable alternative? Have you not heard of Apple Macintosh?

You're confusing ease of use with business accumen.

#

Re:How to curtail evil

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 14, 2002 12:59 PM
You're getting into subjects that people aren't concerned with. The problem isn't the power and ease of Windows compared to Linux or Macintosh. The real problem is the idea that ALL software is compatible with Windows. Every bit of it. But hardly any is made for Linux or Macintosh. If it is, I agree, it is extremely difficult to install to the common user. So the problem is mainly coming up with easy, reliable, yet popular operating systems. Not powerful ones like Linux. The popularity of Windows and the ease of Mac is what we need, not the power of Linux.

#

Trusted Companies and Palladium etc

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 29, 2002 01:09 PM
I wonder if all the people involved in this have realised that going down this path will either destroy them or most of the Interent e-businesses.

Sometime back I saw stats that showed 90% of individuals used hardware and software that is over 2 years old and 75% used gear over 5 years old. Most new gear is used by the govt and big businesses. Many poorer people, and less developed countries, use equipment up to 10 years old.

By not allowing people to have full access if using older hardware and software they are effectively stopping them from doing business, thus a huge percentage of the population will stop doing e-business. And those who worry about civil rights will deliberately use equipment and software that is not part of this system. Get enough conusmer concern going on this issue and you can see Microsft and Intel ending up with a 5%, or less, market share as people stay away in droves to protect their rights and accesses.

The concern will be How many legislators can the companies buy to put teeth into their profits?

The USA citizens need to get the civil liberties people stirring up interest against this, and also those who lobby for the poor and low income earners as the final decisions are likely to be made by US Congressmen and Senators backing or killing bills.

Ernest

#

Re:Trusted Companies and Palladium etc

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 03, 2002 06:54 AM
MS can't even make a stable OS, how can they take over the world? Give me a break.

#

What's going on in the USofA ?!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2002 07:00 AM
As an observer from Europe I'm pretty shocked if I take a look at todays state of the USA.

I don't want to start about all the damage that was done to civil rights..., but this TCPA thing is really a fascist thing, nothing else.

It has NOTHING to do with YOUR security, it's about control for the big players like Mickeysoft.

Stop those crazy bastards.

#

What we need is OPEN HARDWARE !

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2002 07:13 AM
Having open source is by far not enough ! We learn now a hard lesson: we have good open source software which still relies on closed and controlled hardware, THIS is what has to be changed !

We need VERY brave harware makers who produce open hardware for open source !

Imagine, the GNU/Linux (and *BSD of course!) community has its very own mainboard makers !

GREAT !

NO fear anymore of evil and by the government of the USA corrupted hardware makers !

The open source world is getting more and more mature and if we had our own hardware business, THAT would be complete independence !

As long as we depend on those evil companies which will give us TCPA enabled hardware, we're lost !

#

There are answers, just not easy ones.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 14, 2002 12:51 PM
A person could switch to Mac. The only reason Macs aren't big in the market right now is the fact that the people at Apple computers don't know how to advertise. I saw an article in the paper today that read, "Buy your Mac OS X now and get $20 off of Microsoft Works!" For one thing, Microsoft Works is outdated by newer, more efficient programs. For a second thing, no one using a Mac will want Microsoft Works!

Basically what I'm saying is the fact that Mac OS X is a good, solid operating system. They've had ideas and features in operation for many years while MS is just now implementing them into Windows XP. So the choices are to go Linux or Mac. And since most people aren't computer geeks enough to put together their own computer with imported parts and run an unknown operating system, like Linux or Unix, Mac seems to be the best answer for the general population.

I, though, will more than likely purchase computer parts from Japan or China and have them imported and run Linux.

#

Power to the people

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 26, 2002 12:44 AM
Where can I get this Trusted Computer technology? It sounds like a great idea to me. And just think of the great benefits for democracy, once we each own the copyright on our own vote.

Make sure that your President/Senator/Congressman/MP/MEP/... votes the way that you intended when you "trusted" him/her with your vote. If he/she doesn't, just move your vote until his/her seat just disappears!

Thank you Intel, Microsoft, HP,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... for giving power back to the people.

#

Can you trust your computer?

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 71.201.129.181] on January 01, 2008 10:34 PM
dear (our MS), ms has an api, documented too... If this was not the case, no one would buy any software, as developers need to know what goes on in this years new OS. dear RMS, have you ever looked at a hexdump? heard of a commie named oppenheimer?

#

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