Learn about Linux
Download Linux
Get Linux helpSpecial Offers
Feature: Linux
Survey: What Linux needs now
By on
July 16, 2003 (8:00:00 AM)
Share
Print
Comments
- by Joe Barr -
This list of the "Top 10 things Linux needs now" is a summation of the results of a small, highly unscientific poll I recently conducted on various newsgroups and mailing lists.
This list of the "Top 10 things Linux needs now" is a summation of the results of a small, highly unscientific poll I recently conducted on various newsgroups and mailing lists.
Most but not all of respondents are regular users of Linux. Some are die-hard Linux-only types. Some dual-boot to use "the right tool for the right job." Still others are merely curious about Linux. They are waiting for this or that to arrive before they even give it a try. There are also a few responses from folks who don't like Linux at all.
I have grouped the raw responses into categories. A vote for PhotoShop and for a tax program both went into Applications, for example. Games received enough votes to have a category of its own.
1st place: Applications
Almost a quarter of the responses wanted either more or specific applications. Some of those named specifically include Quark, PhotoShop, AutoCAD, and Microsoft Office. One person wanted a newer release of RealPlayer. There were also votes for types of applications, like OCR and tax, rather than for a specific product.
2nd place: Ease of use
Sixteen percent of the votes expressed the need for Linux to be easier to use. Specific suggestions were for better GUI applications for system configuration, more consistency between applications, and for Linux to have more fit and polish like the Mac OS X. Some even want it to be more like Windows.
3rd place: OS preloaded with desktop hardware
More than 10% of the responses suggested that what is holding Linux back now is not something missing from Linux so much as it is about availability. Microsoft would definitely agree, not just for Linux but for all its erstwhile competition over the years, from DR-DOS to OS/2 to BeOS. That's why it works so hard at keeping everyone else out of the preload arena. That's also why Massachusetts is charging in court that Microsoft has very recently (post-settlement) threatened reprisals against a major OEM to prevent it from offering Linux preloaded.
Here we are five years after the start of the Linux boom and HP has only recently become the first major OEM in the United States to offer Linux preloaded without forcing customers to pay a premium, as if they were paying for both Windows and Linux getting only Linux. This in spite of the demand evidenced by successful pre-load offerings by HP, IBM, and others in India, China, and Thailand. Now that there is finally a domestic American pre-load offering, it shouldn't take long to learn whether these votes are on the mark or not.
4th/5th place: Drivers and Games
Ten percent of the votes went for more or better relationships and drivers from hardware manufacturers. The most specific response was for 3-D video cards, but most simply wanted more and better across the board.
Ten percent also wanted more games. One wanted a "super game" exclusive to Linux, another wanted all the top Windows titles. The Linux gaming community may be small, but it is both vocal and growing.
6th place: Name recognition
Some took a larger view of what Linux needs. They want Linux to be more of a household term. Some said better name recognition will make management more willing to adopt Linux in the workplace. Others said it would prevent hardware manufacturers from ignoring the Linux market.
7th place: Easier installation of applications
Rather than being unhappy with a specific package management methodology, the votes in this category were for a universal solution. They want something that works well and works the same way across all distributions.
There were 10 responses tied for the 8th through 10th spots, each with one vote apiece. I played the pundit-card here and selected the final three positions. Among those not included are responses like "an end to pundits trying to divine what Linux needs next."
8th place: Better Microsoft Office file filters
We've had improvement here over the years, but the target keeps moving and we need to do the same.
9th place: Better documentation
This is always true, regardless of whether we are talking about Linux or Mac OS X or Windows XP.
10th place: Hot plug-and-play
I'm not sure how useful this would be, but it sounds sexy.
The list holds three surprises for me. First, I was surprised to see preloads ranked so high. I think that's a very astute observation. It's also very un-geeky. Maybe that's why it surprised me. Ditto for the awareness shown by the respondents of the value of name recognition. It's interesting to me that both of those are of the "rising tide lifts all boats" variety.
My biggest surprise came when I thought about what is not on the list. The great anti-Linux mantra is gone. It has disappeared. Not one of the more than 60 responses mentioned a need for easier installation of the operating system. Kudos to everyone who helped to make that happen. Let's hope the same thing happens to all the critical needs on the list.
Finally, I think it is worth pointing out that almost all of the items on the list are focused on Linux as a desktop platform rather than simply as a server. In this pundit's very humble opinion, the "not ready for the desktop" mantra will be the next one to disappear.
Joe Barr has been writing about technology for 10 years, and about Linux for five. His work has appeared in IBM Personal Systems Journal, LinuxGazette, LinuxWorld, Newsforge, phrack, SecurityFocus, and VARLinux.org. He is the founder of The Dweebspeak Primer, the official newsletter of the Linux Liberation Army.
Comments
on Survey: What Linux needs nowNote: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
He did say 'informal survey', I believe. Plus, few who use Linux for everything are going to respond to such a poll.
Finally, who said anything about revolution? The revolution is over: Microsoft killed all of the old landlords, the people have their new tyrant. Now, everyone is just losing interest, and walking away. A demagogue has to keep your attention, otherwise he's just another schmoe.
Finally, who said anything about revolution? The revolution is over: Microsoft killed all of the old landlords, the people have their new tyrant. Now, everyone is just losing interest, and walking away. A demagogue has to keep your attention, otherwise he's just another schmoe.
I am not positive what exactally you mean by hot plug and play but from what I understand hot plug and play under linux is comparable to that of Windows and Mac. Hotplug comes with most distributions and can configure USB devices on the fly and may work for other interfaces. Cardctl does the same for PCMCIA. For other devices a bit of finesse is all that is usualy needed. In fact with tools like RedHat's kudzu it is getting easier to dynamically add, remove, and configure hardware under linux.
Yip something like a USB Flash Disk or even a Digital Camara that uses a USB Mass Storage format. When I plug a device like this in it should pop-up a folder/shortcut so I can automatically access the files.
Not to be nitpicky, but on my system, it (more or less) does.
I have a shortcut on my KDE desktop that mounts and shows my LAKS memory watch (which is essentially a USB flash memory drive) when I click on it.
Ofcourse, you still have to create the shortcut. I admit that it would be nice if there was a folder that automatically contained mount shortcuts for all usb devices attached.
I have a shortcut on my KDE desktop that mounts and shows my LAKS memory watch (which is essentially a USB flash memory drive) when I click on it.
Ofcourse, you still have to create the shortcut. I admit that it would be nice if there was a folder that automatically contained mount shortcuts for all usb devices attached.
my MDK system hotplugs my fuji camers, plug it in and up pops the icon. thats it, no fuss no muss.
but, It would be nice if more devices did that.
but, It would be nice if more devices did that.
You should look into autofs.
It can automount floppy, cd, dvd, flash, nfs mounts, and usb devices the first time you try to access them.
Combine that with an icon on the desktop and your problem is solved.
next.
It can automount floppy, cd, dvd, flash, nfs mounts, and usb devices the first time you try to access them.
Combine that with an icon on the desktop and your problem is solved.
next.
Maybe they were thinking more enterprise scale.
Things like hot plug CPU's<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... or hot plug PCI... still in it's infancy for linux.
Things like hot plug CPU's<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... or hot plug PCI... still in it's infancy for linux.
I find it disappointing that people don't seem to want to junk X in favour for a direct rendered windowing model.
Yeah, the internet is old, ditch it too<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..
Ditch X use <A HREF="http://www.mutley.uklinux.net/" TITLE="uklinux.net">Y</a uklinux.net>.
IPV6.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P
End users don't care about implementation.
As far a I am concerened X is great. The problem is X configuration and trouble shooting needs massive help.
Once X is running it is great and works so much better than direct rendering. It out performs VNC and with all these terminal server poping up. X is at the core of every one of them.
What really needs to be ditched is the need for hand-editing of the config file. If X doesn't start, it needs to take you into a VGA-compatible graphical troubleshooter. And what the fuck is a modeline? I've been working with computers for years, and I still don't understand them. They need to be removed from the config file.
Most of my problems come from poor drivers/lack of drivers.
As far a I am concerened X is great. The problem is X configuration and trouble shooting needs massive help.
Once X is running it is great and works so much better than direct rendering. It out performs VNC and with all these terminal server poping up. X is at the core of every one of them.
What really needs to be ditched is the need for hand-editing of the config file. If X doesn't start, it needs to take you into a VGA-compatible graphical troubleshooter. And what the fuck is a modeline? I've been working with computers for years, and I still don't understand them. They need to be removed from the config file.
Most of my problems come from poor drivers/lack of drivers.
The dumb thing is that X 3.x had a GUI configuration tool, but it wasn't ported to XF 4.x because nobody thought it was worth it. And currently the focus is on making X autodetect everything in all cases instead of developing an easy to use GUI tool.
``And currently the focus is on making X autodetect everything in all cases instead of developing an easy to use GUI tool.''
And how do you run the GUI if X is not configured? Seems like you still need to do the autodetect to get X running the first time anyway. And, in case you didn't know, Red Hat has a decent GUI interface to configure XFree86.
I suppose you wouldn't need to autodetect if the XFree86 developers just threw together a tool that started the server in 640x480 or 800x600 mode (I think all monitors can handle that) so that you could run a generic GUI for configuration. But then you just know what would happen... people would roll their eyes and bitch and complain that they were forced to run the configurator at something less than 1800x1600 resolution.
xf86cfg, mkay....
xf86cfg, mkay...
Last time I tried it (and the first, by the way) it failed miserably.
For the record:
1/ It is a Sis 650 on motherboard
2/ Knoppix did detect it at first try
Last time I tried it (and the first, by the way) it failed miserably.
For the record:
1/ It is a Sis 650 on motherboard
2/ Knoppix did detect it at first try
And what the fuck is a modeline? I've been working with computers for years, and I still don't understand them.
You have mode lines in your config file? Why? Modern versions of XFree86 don't need them unless either
- your monitor is strange or limited and needs custom timings to get decent resolutions, or
- you want to use a non-standard resolution
For example, the other day I wanted to play a game that creates a window of like 512x300. It can't scale the window. So I created a mode line for 512x384 (4x3 aspect ratio, y'know) just by guessing at the numbers - well, educated guessing, I do know what they mean - and it worked, and now I can play basically full-screen.
Please don't argue that I should not be allowed to do that. It is very nice to be able to create a resolution/refresh rate perfectly matched to my card / monitory capabilities and my own preferences. I hate being constrained to a predefined list of "VESA standard" resolutions. (For example, "what's the highest resolution
this XXX monitor can do at 70 Hz?" Answer: probably not a VESA standard resolution, but something in between - I did a 1856x1392 not long ago.)
I needed to use custom video timings on Windows awhile back (due to limitations of the A-D electronics on a DLP projector) and guess what? It's driver-dependent! Most drivers don't expose any way to provide alternate video modes at all, and for the ones that do (like the 3DLabs Wildcat series), it's generally undocumented. Give me XF86 any day.
You're damned right; we still need modelines. At least, I do if I want to run my SGI 1600SW liquid crystal display at its native resolution: 1600x1024.
That's a very narrow aspect ratio!
Maybe they like network transparency over games performance. Kinda fits together with having few games and lacking 3D hardware support<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
There are some projects like <A HREF="http://www.directfb.org/" TITLE="directfb.org">DirectFB</a directfb.org> and <A HREF="http://www.fresco.org/" TITLE="fresco.org">Fresco</a fresco.org> that seem to be doing something, but I don't I think they're yet fully usable, and we really haven't had many realworld benchmarks if they even are that much better in general.
There are some projects like <A HREF="http://www.directfb.org/" TITLE="directfb.org">DirectFB</a directfb.org> and <A HREF="http://www.fresco.org/" TITLE="fresco.org">Fresco</a fresco.org> that seem to be doing something, but I don't I think they're yet fully usable, and we really haven't had many realworld benchmarks if they even are that much better in general.
X11 allows direct rendering (see NVidia drivers) and there is no proof that any game on Windows is significantly faster than on XFree, when you use comparable drivers like the NVidia ones. (Actually some are faster on XFree)
If you are using slow drivers, or a toolkit that is unoptimized, replacing X11 with some other rendering solution will not solve anything. X11 needs more work to perform better, but starting from scratch just destorys work.
If you are using slow drivers, or a toolkit that is unoptimized, replacing X11 with some other rendering solution will not solve anything. X11 needs more work to perform better, but starting from scratch just destorys work.
Yep. DRI versus X is a question of whether gaming or the world's economy will be powered by Linux. I'm betting on X and the world's industrial output.
If we go with direct rendering doesn't that mean that when applications crash they will than crash the desktop. It seems likely that would be one of the consequences.
My bitch with X is xf86config doesn't support late model graphics cards. When hardware detection doesn't install my graphics driver xf86config doesn't help either because it lags too far with hardware support.
My bitch with X is xf86config doesn't support late model graphics cards. When hardware detection doesn't install my graphics driver xf86config doesn't help either because it lags too far with hardware support.
and none of the lagging driver support would change by going to a direct rendering method.
Given the right hardware and configuration, X is as fast as your precious "direct rendered windowing model" and network-transparent in the bargain. I guess you haven't figured out a use for X terminals. I have; I have four refurbished laptops on 802.11b connections running as X terminals.
Oh, wait, I use my PS2 for games. Is that your problem? Or are you just too stupid to make proper use of existing tools?
Oh, wait, I use my PS2 for games. Is that your problem? Or are you just too stupid to make proper use of existing tools?
I wouldn't give up the ability to run single applications or the whole desktop remotely. What we do need is an agreement on a framework and widget set for the commonly used stuff so you don't have to load up different massive shared libraries to support every program you start.
While there are definately good reasons for ditching X11 in favour of some direct stuff in some areas, X11 is still one of the strengthes of UNIX/Linux Systems. It's perfectly fast enough for normal use and it is network transparent. Of course, the X protocoll could be a little less chatty but in general X is more of an advantage than a disadvantage.
When accelerated X runs just as fast as any other windowing system out there. The perception that X, the protocol, is slow is just that, a perception. The main problems are that the kernel wasn't optimised for desktop use (2.6 will be), and that acceleration of complex graphical operations, like transparency and anti-aliasing, isn't quite there yet (but they're working on it). The RENDER extension provides this, but in XFree it's mostly unaccelerated.
X allows me to do stuff that is literally impossible with windows (and windows itself doesn't even really use direct rendering for windowing, yet). Like tieing two desktops of different machines together (sharing one keyboard/mouse combo) using x2x. Or, obviously, running the mail client that's on my home desktop from my laptop across the internet (want speed from remote X, try ssh -C to log in).
X allows me to do stuff that is literally impossible with windows (and windows itself doesn't even really use direct rendering for windowing, yet). Like tieing two desktops of different machines together (sharing one keyboard/mouse combo) using x2x. Or, obviously, running the mail client that's on my home desktop from my laptop across the internet (want speed from remote X, try ssh -C to log in).
I agree. On my system I get just as good a frame rate in accelerated games using X as I do with the same games on the same machine(dual boot) in MS Windows. I would NEVER want to give up the excellent remote X capabilities to gain a few fps.
I think the new 2.6 series kernel will make a large difference with desktop (and gaming) performance.
I think the new 2.6 series kernel will make a large difference with desktop (and gaming) performance.
uhh.. they obviously don't KNOW about it, dude, or else they'd complain. All users notice are things like "crappy GUI responsiveness" and "long periods of waiting for the mouse to move," which are X-related but not necessarily attributable by users who don't know WHY things don't work so smoothly.
You got a crappy slow computer. Newer software needs newer computers. Ditching X is like ditching your toilet, you'll regret it.
Personally I like X for its power, versatility and network transparency, but I think many of the comments on this thread miss the point that X and some sort of direct rendering are not incompatible. Want to use X? Type "startx". Want to use direct rendering? Get a direct rendering system working and start it from the command line.
There is already work going on in this direction. See www.cosmode.com for an example.
There is already work going on in this direction. See www.cosmode.com for an example.
Sorry, I meant www.cosmoe.com
I find it disappointing that people don't seem to want to junk X in favour for a direct rendered windowing model.
Hey, great idea. Let me know when you're done coding it.
A couple days ago, Scribus was declared "mature" enough for v1.0. It's supposed to be taking on Quark the way Open Office.org is taking on MS Office. You can check it out <A HREF="http://web2.altmuehlnet.de/fschmid/" TITLE="altmuehlnet.de">here</a altmuehlnet.de>.
I like Scibus - it reminds me of happy days working with Timeworks DTP on my Atari<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
The few things keeping me from Linux are listed here.
(1) Standard Easy installation for all apps - I've complained about it alot but untill this is done I will never really do that much in Linux. Some things I've downloaded while testing Linux were confusing as to how i install them - more or less they told me to go to the terminal and type some commands that failed. Windows has a simple installer program, on Mac OS X all you have to do is drag an App where you want it, why is Linux so slow at creating something so essential? I've given up on Linux for now because I can only really use the apps that come with the distro i get. Add a universal easy installer and I'll make room it on my labtop for it.
(2) Ease of Use
Quite frankly i can't look and anyone with a straight face and honestly say that Linux is easier than Windows or Mac OS X. If i want to create a simple shortcut for a program on the desktop it's a long task of finding it wherever it resides. On Windows there is a program files folder and on Mac OS X a App folder where in both instances it's pretty easy to find the app your looking for. Take a note from Mac OS X that made an insanely easy OS with UNIX at the core.
(3) Drivers Drivers Drivers
Ok i have a great PowerMac G4 and a decent PC labtop (1.1Ghz AMD Duron) that has a decent graphics chip. Im not planning on making room on my G4 for PowerPC Linux so it's going to run on my labtop. I've only installed Red Hat 8 & 9 on my labtop and found I couldn't play tux racer worth crap even though i can play Diablo II decently in windows. Plus I could never play any DVD in Linux. Overall Linux on my labtop felt like it was full of holes and missing many essential drivers. Once Windows XP came out it showed me how tremendously far Linux is from supporting hardware. Some Linux people say they shouldn't support a lot of hardware but hey this is what you get with PC's you have to support a lot. Mac OS X and Windows XP support a lot of stuff and Linux must play catch up fast.
(1) Standard Easy installation for all apps - I've complained about it alot but untill this is done I will never really do that much in Linux. Some things I've downloaded while testing Linux were confusing as to how i install them - more or less they told me to go to the terminal and type some commands that failed. Windows has a simple installer program, on Mac OS X all you have to do is drag an App where you want it, why is Linux so slow at creating something so essential? I've given up on Linux for now because I can only really use the apps that come with the distro i get. Add a universal easy installer and I'll make room it on my labtop for it.
(2) Ease of Use
Quite frankly i can't look and anyone with a straight face and honestly say that Linux is easier than Windows or Mac OS X. If i want to create a simple shortcut for a program on the desktop it's a long task of finding it wherever it resides. On Windows there is a program files folder and on Mac OS X a App folder where in both instances it's pretty easy to find the app your looking for. Take a note from Mac OS X that made an insanely easy OS with UNIX at the core.
(3) Drivers Drivers Drivers
Ok i have a great PowerMac G4 and a decent PC labtop (1.1Ghz AMD Duron) that has a decent graphics chip. Im not planning on making room on my G4 for PowerPC Linux so it's going to run on my labtop. I've only installed Red Hat 8 & 9 on my labtop and found I couldn't play tux racer worth crap even though i can play Diablo II decently in windows. Plus I could never play any DVD in Linux. Overall Linux on my labtop felt like it was full of holes and missing many essential drivers. Once Windows XP came out it showed me how tremendously far Linux is from supporting hardware. Some Linux people say they shouldn't support a lot of hardware but hey this is what you get with PC's you have to support a lot. Mac OS X and Windows XP support a lot of stuff and Linux must play catch up fast.
(1) What's so hard about apt? Or emerge? Much simpler than installing Windows software, and much MUCH easier to keep your software up to date.
(2) It's pretty easy once you get used to things. Linux is much easier to maintain than Windows. As for finding an app, that's what the whereis command is for. If you know your way around UNIX/Linux, things are easier and faster than in Windows.
(3) I agree on the drivers issue. But its a chicken and egg problem. There needs to be demand for drivers so that hardware manuafactures will release drivers or a spec in a timely manner.
Note that I didn't talk about Mac OS X. I haven't used it and it might be better than Linux. But I can assemble 3 good x86 machines for the price of one decent Mac machine, and then there's the software costs...
(2) It's pretty easy once you get used to things. Linux is much easier to maintain than Windows. As for finding an app, that's what the whereis command is for. If you know your way around UNIX/Linux, things are easier and faster than in Windows.
(3) I agree on the drivers issue. But its a chicken and egg problem. There needs to be demand for drivers so that hardware manuafactures will release drivers or a spec in a timely manner.
Note that I didn't talk about Mac OS X. I haven't used it and it might be better than Linux. But I can assemble 3 good x86 machines for the price of one decent Mac machine, and then there's the software costs...
What's so hard about apt? Or emerge? Much simpler than installing Windows software, and much MUCH easier to keep your software up to date.
Exactly. People see tarballs and RPMs only and they think it's how programs installation works. Only biggest GNU/Linux companies can change this by migrating from RPM (who need them?!) to DEBs or at least use APT-RPM for handling dependencies. I haven't used Gentoo but I know that emerge is also TheGoodThing(TM) in handling dependencies. Until this happens user migration will be slow. It's shame that new users see only commercial distros. Though Debian does it's journey to ex Winblows users through Knoppix<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
Exactly. People see tarballs and RPMs only and they think it's how programs installation works. Only biggest GNU/Linux companies can change this by migrating from RPM (who need them?!) to DEBs or at least use APT-RPM for handling dependencies. I haven't used Gentoo but I know that emerge is also TheGoodThing(TM) in handling dependencies. Until this happens user migration will be slow. It's shame that new users see only commercial distros. Though Debian does it's journey to ex Winblows users through Knoppix<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
While I have Linux working I don't know the internals. However I wonder with todays large HDDs and CDs why not include all but the most common dependencies with the Application?
I'll even take an answer to this:
j7915@yahoo.com
I'll even take an answer to this:
j7915@yahoo.com
Oh i don't think there isn't anything bad about those except i've never heard of them. Where the f*ck am i supposed to find these damn commands?
What the hell is wrong with an executable installer? People just act like oh yeah this is obvious - assuming your a hardcore linux person. This stuff does not leap out at you - how the f*ck is someone supposed to find this info?
Say I just install Red Hat Linux 9. I see the desktop - how the F*CK am i supposed to say oh it's obvious i should just use apt or emerge? Yeah right like this stuff leaps out at you
What the hell is wrong with an executable installer? People just act like oh yeah this is obvious - assuming your a hardcore linux person. This stuff does not leap out at you - how the f*ck is someone supposed to find this info?
Say I just install Red Hat Linux 9. I see the desktop - how the F*CK am i supposed to say oh it's obvious i should just use apt or emerge? Yeah right like this stuff leaps out at you
Ok, moron, how are you supposed to know how to install a windows program, if some never told you to click on the file....RTFM!
Oh, I forgot youre a windows user and feels the need NOT to have to read the manaul..
Oh, I forgot youre a windows user and feels the need NOT to have to read the manaul..
If you want to attract Windows users, then you need to develop a method of installation that is no more complex than clicking on a file and DOESN'T require a manual to learn how to install. The trend has been moving away from manuals for quite some time (except on Linux) and will probably continue to do so.
When it comes down to it: why should I be forced to read a manual to use a piece of commodity software (word processor, email, browser, etc.). It should be well enough written to NOT require it if the emphasis is on attracting the general class of user.
Many, many people use the computer without any intention of learning more about it than how to turn it on and perform some really basic functions. That's fine for them, you and I may choose to actually learn about it because that's where our interests lie, but don't dismiss the rest of the crowd just because they choose not to, asshat.
When it comes down to it: why should I be forced to read a manual to use a piece of commodity software (word processor, email, browser, etc.). It should be well enough written to NOT require it if the emphasis is on attracting the general class of user.
Many, many people use the computer without any intention of learning more about it than how to turn it on and perform some really basic functions. That's fine for them, you and I may choose to actually learn about it because that's where our interests lie, but don't dismiss the rest of the crowd just because they choose not to, asshat.
Did you try to download an RPM file and double-click on it?
The point is, people who generally criticize Linux are people who don't know how to use it, so their points aren't very valid.
"Ease of learning" is not the same as "Ease of use".. But even then, I think ease of learning isn't bad if you have the time. How long did it take you to learn Windows?
I learned UNIX before I learned Windows 95. UNIX is not any harder than Windows. In fact, its easier in a lot of cases. With Windows, I've been using it since Win 3.xx and I'm just now starting to get comfortable with it (though there's still a lot I don't know). I got comfortable with UNIX/Linux a long time ago.
"Ease of learning" is not the same as "Ease of use".. But even then, I think ease of learning isn't bad if you have the time. How long did it take you to learn Windows?
I learned UNIX before I learned Windows 95. UNIX is not any harder than Windows. In fact, its easier in a lot of cases. With Windows, I've been using it since Win 3.xx and I'm just now starting to get comfortable with it (though there's still a lot I don't know). I got comfortable with UNIX/Linux a long time ago.
Nicely Said! And it neatly sums up the flaw with all these "What linux needs" discussions.
Perhaps a more useful survey would have been "What are the best ways to learn to use linux" for critics and detractors.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;->
Perhaps a more useful survey would have been "What are the best ways to learn to use linux" for critics and detractors.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;->
The critics aren't entirely invalid. What you're comfortable may not be what others are comfortable with. It's true some critics bash Linux because it does not provide the same comfort level as Windows does, thus it's not quite as user-friendly to them. At the same time, are you trying to help Window users to use Linux or prevent them from using Linux?
Read another one of my comments <A HREF="http://newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=32004&cid=60503" TITLE="newsforge.com">here</a newsforge.com>
Ok first of all the apps i have downloaded and tried to install on Linux told me to do one of the following:
(1) just go to where the files were and type some command apt or whatever - i did this several times and each time i got an error. Nothing worked so i gave up after looking around for help for a while
(2) Run a script and in some cases i got the program to sucsessfully install but the application was entirely localized on the desktop and could never figure out how to get the program onto the menu and would also not take on the new apps icon
I've never seen this RPM format although i hear of it continuously. If a RPM was available it was not provided on the sites i found. The point is when I first used windows and I wanted to install something is was easy to figure out to download a setup file and then double-click on the setup.exe file and boom you go through an easy setup. Mac OS X is even more friggin easy! All you have to do is drag an app from one folder to your applications (or whatever folder/spot you want) folder. The point is if you download something and you can't figure it out within a decent amount of time it's too complex. Mac OS X managed to get the easiest installation process of the 3 major types of os's out there on a UNIX based system, why can't linux do the same. These things are essential and linux is lagging behind badly. Linux needs an easy universal installer program to install all apps across many distros. Listen I like linux in some aspects in my experience with it, but the fact that I can't just easily install/upgrade apps on my Linux systems prevents me from doing much with Linux. I really would like to do more with Linux and i look forward to that day when I can use it as well as i do windows or Mac OS X.
(1) just go to where the files were and type some command apt or whatever - i did this several times and each time i got an error. Nothing worked so i gave up after looking around for help for a while
(2) Run a script and in some cases i got the program to sucsessfully install but the application was entirely localized on the desktop and could never figure out how to get the program onto the menu and would also not take on the new apps icon
I've never seen this RPM format although i hear of it continuously. If a RPM was available it was not provided on the sites i found. The point is when I first used windows and I wanted to install something is was easy to figure out to download a setup file and then double-click on the setup.exe file and boom you go through an easy setup. Mac OS X is even more friggin easy! All you have to do is drag an app from one folder to your applications (or whatever folder/spot you want) folder. The point is if you download something and you can't figure it out within a decent amount of time it's too complex. Mac OS X managed to get the easiest installation process of the 3 major types of os's out there on a UNIX based system, why can't linux do the same. These things are essential and linux is lagging behind badly. Linux needs an easy universal installer program to install all apps across many distros. Listen I like linux in some aspects in my experience with it, but the fact that I can't just easily install/upgrade apps on my Linux systems prevents me from doing much with Linux. I really would like to do more with Linux and i look forward to that day when I can use it as well as i do windows or Mac OS X.
This isn't exactly universal, but...
Installing Linux apps:
Say you're running Debian and want to install Mozilla. Open up a shell as root and type:
apt-get install mozilla
Hit enter if it asks you whether to install or not.
Watch it download and install Mozilla. That's all.
Quicker and easier than Windows approach where you have to download the file, double-click an EXE, click Next repeatedly, and possibly even reboot depending on the app.
Want to upgrade ALL the software on your system? Easy. As root type the following commands:
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
Hit enter at any prompts. That's it.
Installing Linux apps:
Say you're running Debian and want to install Mozilla. Open up a shell as root and type:
apt-get install mozilla
Hit enter if it asks you whether to install or not.
Watch it download and install Mozilla. That's all.
Quicker and easier than Windows approach where you have to download the file, double-click an EXE, click Next repeatedly, and possibly even reboot depending on the app.
Want to upgrade ALL the software on your system? Easy. As root type the following commands:
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
Hit enter at any prompts. That's it.
"(1) Standard Easy installation for all apps"
Yes, everyone is going in a different direction, in the software installation aspect. Statically linked binaries (i.e., a completely self-contained program) would make universal binaries possible, but the downsides (size of files, for one thing) would limit adoption by developers.
"(2) Ease of Use"
CLI people who are familiar with Unix already think that Linux is easy to use. Also, you are never going to make a complex system easy: that's why we call it complex. For a desktop system there are thousands of Unix features that don't need to be there. The trick is reducing the feature set without destroying interoperability. If I could start with a VERY basic Linux desktop, then individually add features and complexity...
(3) Drivers Drivers Drivers
Vendors, vendors, vendors. Gotta have those hardware specs that no-one will release without an NDA.
Yes, everyone is going in a different direction, in the software installation aspect. Statically linked binaries (i.e., a completely self-contained program) would make universal binaries possible, but the downsides (size of files, for one thing) would limit adoption by developers.
"(2) Ease of Use"
CLI people who are familiar with Unix already think that Linux is easy to use. Also, you are never going to make a complex system easy: that's why we call it complex. For a desktop system there are thousands of Unix features that don't need to be there. The trick is reducing the feature set without destroying interoperability. If I could start with a VERY basic Linux desktop, then individually add features and complexity...
(3) Drivers Drivers Drivers
Vendors, vendors, vendors. Gotta have those hardware specs that no-one will release without an NDA.
Microshit takes alot of liberty with your disk permissions. If you want linux to perform equally well you have to turn DMA on on the hard disk and CDROMS. It is highly configurable so that you well get the most out of the disk, unlike winblows. But you have to take the initiative by seeing what your hardware can do and take advantage of it. At least you have that option with linux.
The reason your Pc can't play DVD's isn't because linux doesn't support that. It's because it's illegal (in the US, australia and parts of europe) to sell or distribute an unlicensed DVD player, and it's impossible to make an open source licensed DVD player due to the nature of the license (one of the requirements is that i has to be impossible to make screenshots, which is clearly impossible to satisfy if the source is open). And that's not even mentioning the fact that DVD player licenses cost real money.
Because of this all open source DVD players are essentially illegal, and so aren't distributed. If you want to blame someone for bad DVD support on linux, blame either the US government for passing the dmca, Disney for wanting the dmca, or the dvd-cca (copyright control association) for requiring such extortionate license terms.
You're right about 3D acceleration support being less than stellar on linux. But bare in mind that most 3D chipset makers refuse to document their chips to the point that you can write drivers for them, and that 3D chips nowadays are more complex than CPU's.
Imagine if you had to reverse engineer the instruction set for every cpu released by Intel and amd just to be able to program them. Insane, right? Apparently not for the graphics companies.
Personally, my experience with linux hardware support has been OK. Yes, I do have some hardware that doesn't work in linux, but 90 percent of it also doesn't work in Windows XP due to it being rare and/or old. So it doesn't bother me, really.
Because of this all open source DVD players are essentially illegal, and so aren't distributed. If you want to blame someone for bad DVD support on linux, blame either the US government for passing the dmca, Disney for wanting the dmca, or the dvd-cca (copyright control association) for requiring such extortionate license terms.
You're right about 3D acceleration support being less than stellar on linux. But bare in mind that most 3D chipset makers refuse to document their chips to the point that you can write drivers for them, and that 3D chips nowadays are more complex than CPU's.
Imagine if you had to reverse engineer the instruction set for every cpu released by Intel and amd just to be able to program them. Insane, right? Apparently not for the graphics companies.
Personally, my experience with linux hardware support has been OK. Yes, I do have some hardware that doesn't work in linux, but 90 percent of it also doesn't work in Windows XP due to it being rare and/or old. So it doesn't bother me, really.
Lists like these "what linux needs now" are what linux needs now.
This comment is dedicated to all the comments which do not refer to themselves.
My biggest surprise came when I thought about what is not on the list. The great anti-Linux mantra is gone. It has disappeared.
Sorry, it simply wasn't one of the available options... They are only:
# More applications
# Improved ease of use
# Preloaded by more hardware vendors
# More drivers and games
# More name recognition
# Easier installation of applications
# Better Microsoft Office file filters
# Better documentation
Sorry, it simply wasn't one of the available options... They are only:
# More applications
# Improved ease of use
# Preloaded by more hardware vendors
# More drivers and games
# More name recognition
# Easier installation of applications
# Better Microsoft Office file filters
# Better documentation
When the survey was done, there was no list. Respondents were free to suggest anything they wanted. The list came from the suggestions, not the other way around.
See ya,
Joe Barr
Without a doubt lack of a standard installation scheme and reliance on shared libraries is the bane of my existence. If I install Evolution using red carpet it screws up apt. It drags in libraries that screw up other applications (like openssl in my case). If I try to compile from source, there is usually a missing dependency and if the compile works flawlessly I will still have to integrate it into my desk top by hand, putting it into menus, etc.
Most likely I will have to do this integration twice, once for KDE and once for GNOME since neither desktop offers a sufficient range of quality applications. Which is my number two peeve, the existence of multiple GUI's. I know competition is good and I like choice, but unitl there is a full set of excellent applications for both, they need to work better together or apps need to be written for both.
I use KDE, but there is nothing that compares with Evolution. KBear also sucks so I have to use gFTP. In fact I can't think of a stand alone KDE application except for Konqueror and KPPP that I use, but, IMHO the desktop experience in KDE is mo better than Gnome. As a result I put up with the hassle of two GUI's installed on my system. My choice, I know, but I still don't like it.
Most likely I will have to do this integration twice, once for KDE and once for GNOME since neither desktop offers a sufficient range of quality applications. Which is my number two peeve, the existence of multiple GUI's. I know competition is good and I like choice, but unitl there is a full set of excellent applications for both, they need to work better together or apps need to be written for both.
I use KDE, but there is nothing that compares with Evolution. KBear also sucks so I have to use gFTP. In fact I can't think of a stand alone KDE application except for Konqueror and KPPP that I use, but, IMHO the desktop experience in KDE is mo better than Gnome. As a result I put up with the hassle of two GUI's installed on my system. My choice, I know, but I still don't like it.
What Linux needs now is a dangerous thing: some distillation, some weeding of chaff, some "may the best player win."
Say what you will about the Beast, but a lot of good came out of Windows in terms of standardization. The problem arose with Microsoft achieving a monopoly and, along with gaining standardization we all but lost choice. If Linux could cure some of the chaos - there's a lot of junk that should just be given a decent burial - while still allowing a variety of products to compete and/or co-exist, it'll be a beautiful thing. Evolution can keep the Outlook people happy, but not at a cost of killing the KMail users, and so-on.
We should steal - er, embrace - the few good things Microsoft has brought to the table, while at the same time learning from all the evil they brought as well.
Say what you will about the Beast, but a lot of good came out of Windows in terms of standardization. The problem arose with Microsoft achieving a monopoly and, along with gaining standardization we all but lost choice. If Linux could cure some of the chaos - there's a lot of junk that should just be given a decent burial - while still allowing a variety of products to compete and/or co-exist, it'll be a beautiful thing. Evolution can keep the Outlook people happy, but not at a cost of killing the KMail users, and so-on.
We should steal - er, embrace - the few good things Microsoft has brought to the table, while at the same time learning from all the evil they brought as well.
I agree with every point made in both the original post and the responses. I don't understand why Linux supporters limit their scope. What I mean is in making comments that essentially say... Linux already does this, that and the other.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and then go into comments on how to perform the functions. Linux has come along way. While there are command lines to do anything, there is more than a 'lay-person' appeal to making it easier.
Flexibility of upgrading dependacies is a valid point. Fragmenting installations is pointless. I have been impressed with how far Linux has come. One thing you have to give Evil Bill, He doesn't re-invent the wheel, he buys it. For heaven's sake. Windows was the ultimate rip-off. That is why MS paid off apple with $150 mil for IP on the GUI rather than go to court. We as Linux supporters look at changes that make things easier to those familiar with Windows as "dumbing down", but the market shows people want it that way. The point is, there is no reason not to add solutions to address these concerns. That is why my first experience with Mandrake left me with an install with half a dozen different command-line utils to do the same job. The freedom of choice is great.
There needs to be a fundemental shift in thinking to attack the desktop market. Small business settles on MS because that is what the home user has. No relative learning curve. M$ assimilates by (roughly) matching features or assimilation of other technologies. Once they squash the market, they move back to their own direction.
All this rambling comes down to the need for more open minds towards addressing these issues. Linux makes sence to Unix users, but then how many unix users are there in the consumer market? Just a few random thoughts....
Flexibility of upgrading dependacies is a valid point. Fragmenting installations is pointless. I have been impressed with how far Linux has come. One thing you have to give Evil Bill, He doesn't re-invent the wheel, he buys it. For heaven's sake. Windows was the ultimate rip-off. That is why MS paid off apple with $150 mil for IP on the GUI rather than go to court. We as Linux supporters look at changes that make things easier to those familiar with Windows as "dumbing down", but the market shows people want it that way. The point is, there is no reason not to add solutions to address these concerns. That is why my first experience with Mandrake left me with an install with half a dozen different command-line utils to do the same job. The freedom of choice is great.
There needs to be a fundemental shift in thinking to attack the desktop market. Small business settles on MS because that is what the home user has. No relative learning curve. M$ assimilates by (roughly) matching features or assimilation of other technologies. Once they squash the market, they move back to their own direction.
All this rambling comes down to the need for more open minds towards addressing these issues. Linux makes sence to Unix users, but then how many unix users are there in the consumer market? Just a few random thoughts....
Re:What Linux needs... is fewer requests like this
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 17, 2003 06:43 AM
``What I mean is in making comments that essentially say... Linux already does this, that and the other.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..''
So the world should only do things the way you know how to do them? How about approaching the OS with an open mind, realizing that it's going to be different, and quit your bitching about it being different than what you already know?
Sorry to be testy about this but those of us who've probably learned to become productive using maybe a dozen OSs over the years find it extremely annoying to listen to these complaints about Linux not being like Mac OS, Windows, or whatever. Many people who have experience in computing that involves something besides Microsoft products know that they are far from the end-all, be-all they'd like everyone to believe they are. And some of us are fed up with being told that we are somehow deficient because we choose not to ape the garbage that that company has produced over the years.
Re:What Linux needs... is fewer requests like this
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 17, 2003 08:46 PM
You read me all wrong. I never meant to offend anyone. I just had some random thoughts. My point is furthered by some of your reaction. Now, before you flame me, hear me out. I never suggested that Linux was deficient in any of it's abilities. My point was that some of it's week points are in making those features a bit easier to use. It is clear to many people, including many hardcore linux users, that improvement needs to continue and should. To specifically not improve the usability of any feature because it's already there and 'good enough', is counter to progress.
Secondly, I do not know if there was any implication that some of us are not as 'broadly' educated with a wide exposure to past technology, but I want to set the record straight. I have been involved in computing for over 20 years. I have been exposed to a considerable number of different technologies and platforms. My P.O.V. is that this has given me a base to see the pros and cons of all those different systems. Additionally, I have seen my share of technologies and companies go belly-up with the same attitude that many strict linux pundits use. Refusal to even bend to innovation and improvement leads to either death or irrelevance. Linux is probably too large to die and I doubt you or your any other person here will allow it to fade away. So, please don't blast me for wanting to see that it becomes easier and better.
just my 2 cents.....
Secondly, I do not know if there was any implication that some of us are not as 'broadly' educated with a wide exposure to past technology, but I want to set the record straight. I have been involved in computing for over 20 years. I have been exposed to a considerable number of different technologies and platforms. My P.O.V. is that this has given me a base to see the pros and cons of all those different systems. Additionally, I have seen my share of technologies and companies go belly-up with the same attitude that many strict linux pundits use. Refusal to even bend to innovation and improvement leads to either death or irrelevance. Linux is probably too large to die and I doubt you or your any other person here will allow it to fade away. So, please don't blast me for wanting to see that it becomes easier and better.
just my 2 cents.....
Re:What Linux needs... is fewer requests like this
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 22, 2003 06:50 AM
Refusal to even bend to innovation and improvement leads to either death or irrelevance.
And unless the Linux community learns this - or at least those who create the apps do - it won't have a chance against Microsoft. Comes a time when the carburetor manufacturer needs to see the fuel injected writing on the wall. Knee-jerk attacks such as you received for offering opinions - the norm out here - accomplish nothing.
A company asks potential customers what it wants; the customers say "X"; the company reponds with "That's stupid, you can't have that." This is the Linux users' mentality - let's hope it's not the Linux developers'.
And unless the Linux community learns this - or at least those who create the apps do - it won't have a chance against Microsoft. Comes a time when the carburetor manufacturer needs to see the fuel injected writing on the wall. Knee-jerk attacks such as you received for offering opinions - the norm out here - accomplish nothing.
A company asks potential customers what it wants; the customers say "X"; the company reponds with "That's stupid, you can't have that." This is the Linux users' mentality - let's hope it's not the Linux developers'.
Re:What Linux needs... is fewer requests like this
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 22, 2003 09:15 PM
I'm tired of the idea that Linux is all about going up against Microsoft. Sure, the fanboys may act as if it is. But the developers are using it to fill a need. Sure, if someone with money wants to take it up against Microsoft, they are welcome to (as is being done by some companies). But you can't go around saying the Linux needs to go up against Microsoft. You don't see Solaris, AIX, *BSD, Irix, etc saying "we need to take over the Windows home user market." Sure, if someone wants to take *BSD and turn it into a consumer operating system, they are quite welcome to. Same thing with Linux, slap a new GUI on it or whatever, do as you please. But don't try to talk the developers into doing something when your reasons for it don't coincide with theirs.
GNU/Linux is open source. Use it for what you need it for. Contribute what you can. These people sitting around saying what Linux needs usually don't even use GNU/Linux, and have never done anything to contribute.
If a business needs something added/changed in Linux they should pay for the work to be done. That's how OSS works. It'll continue to evolve. You can help it evolve, but talk is cheap. Quit writing trolling articles and write some code, documentation, etc.
GNU/Linux is open source. Use it for what you need it for. Contribute what you can. These people sitting around saying what Linux needs usually don't even use GNU/Linux, and have never done anything to contribute.
If a business needs something added/changed in Linux they should pay for the work to be done. That's how OSS works. It'll continue to evolve. You can help it evolve, but talk is cheap. Quit writing trolling articles and write some code, documentation, etc.
I think a problem with the idea of "what Linux needs" is the question "for what?"
To gain mass acceptance?
To cut into Microsoft's market share?
To be able to compete with the different flavors of UNIX?
To be accepted as a desktop OS?
To be easy for the average computer illiterate to use?
To sell a lot of copies?
Over the last 9 years, all I've been hearing (regarding Linux) is "easy of use" this and "easy of use" that. We'll be hearing this for the end of time when it comes to any electronic devices and other technology. You have to learn to use anything, knowledge doesn't come without the effort.
Is Linux easy to use? Yes. Is Linux easy to learn? I dunno, it depends on who you are and what your background is and how old you are, etc.
I'm tired of hearing how Linux is hard to use from people who haven't learned how to use it. But then maybe the big distros who want to sell copies of Linux to anyone they can may want to pay attention and see what they can do to make it more user friendly.
But for the rest of us, Linux already has ease of use. That is the reason we use it, in addition to flexibility. There are improvements to be made, but ease of use isn't a huge concern in what is meant to be a powerful tool, not a toy.
To gain mass acceptance?
To cut into Microsoft's market share?
To be able to compete with the different flavors of UNIX?
To be accepted as a desktop OS?
To be easy for the average computer illiterate to use?
To sell a lot of copies?
Over the last 9 years, all I've been hearing (regarding Linux) is "easy of use" this and "easy of use" that. We'll be hearing this for the end of time when it comes to any electronic devices and other technology. You have to learn to use anything, knowledge doesn't come without the effort.
Is Linux easy to use? Yes. Is Linux easy to learn? I dunno, it depends on who you are and what your background is and how old you are, etc.
I'm tired of hearing how Linux is hard to use from people who haven't learned how to use it. But then maybe the big distros who want to sell copies of Linux to anyone they can may want to pay attention and see what they can do to make it more user friendly.
But for the rest of us, Linux already has ease of use. That is the reason we use it, in addition to flexibility. There are improvements to be made, but ease of use isn't a huge concern in what is meant to be a powerful tool, not a toy.
After all, the topic is "what linux needs (to be popular)". From reading all the comments, it's logical to assume that the readers want Linux to be a desktop OS, to be accepted by larger general public audience, more or less... of course, it takes time to learn how to use a specific tool, and different tools are designed for different users. Naturally, you don't expect someone to use a drill the same way of using a hammer. Healthy competitions can yield better results, but when MS tries to devour the entire general computing market, making all the coming generations knowing nothing but Windows, that's probably where all the buffs and rebuttles started. At least McDonald's have to face Burger King, Wendy's, A&W...etc.
Fuck McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King etc... I cook my own food. And my food is healthy.
For myself, Linux is there and has been there for over five years, having everything _I_ need.
I've been an MFZ (Microsoft Free Zone) for 10 years now.In the early years, it was a bit difficult; it took some work to find/create workarounds for some things. But now? Now is the time for Linux to take the lead and set the standards.
I've been an MFZ (Microsoft Free Zone) for 10 years now.In the early years, it was a bit difficult; it took some work to find/create workarounds for some things. But now? Now is the time for Linux to take the lead and set the standards.
Myself in LOZ (Linux Only Zone) for 5 years
Its really great, many everyday scenarios with windows users turn out commical!
people commonly say, I have this problem, comp keeps crashing, viruses, whatnot (there were so many more original than those, I would not have such creativity as I'm not used to m$ "$ostware")
and when they see a well configured linux box, they can't stop looking, they see that there's an application to do everything they needed to do in m$ O$...
Its all about showing WELL CONFIGURED DESKTOPS, not just default installs...
peace<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Its really great, many everyday scenarios with windows users turn out commical!
people commonly say, I have this problem, comp keeps crashing, viruses, whatnot (there were so many more original than those, I would not have such creativity as I'm not used to m$ "$ostware")
and when they see a well configured linux box, they can't stop looking, they see that there's an application to do everything they needed to do in m$ O$...
Its all about showing WELL CONFIGURED DESKTOPS, not just default installs...
peace<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
"MFZ"? The Unix cabinets here are known as the "DMZ" - De-Microsofted Zone, which really confuses the firewall guys.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)
Sounds like what a lot people want linux to become a free windows clone.
Word is a MS product. If you want word get word.
If you want a free word replacement use Openoffice. If that isn't good enough - pay for word and the os it runs on!
Same goes for hardware and drivers. Pick hardware supported by linux. If the peripheral supplier doesn't support linux - don't but it!
Software installation - learn to use the package management provided! Apt for example, makes installation a breeze.
Games. Get a dedicated console!
LOL! I know this is flame bait. But anyone capable of using linux as linux already is!
Keep wishing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
rob
Word is a MS product. If you want word get word.
If you want a free word replacement use Openoffice. If that isn't good enough - pay for word and the os it runs on!
Same goes for hardware and drivers. Pick hardware supported by linux. If the peripheral supplier doesn't support linux - don't but it!
Software installation - learn to use the package management provided! Apt for example, makes installation a breeze.
Games. Get a dedicated console!
LOL! I know this is flame bait. But anyone capable of using linux as linux already is!
Keep wishing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
rob
You need to understand that for Linux to succeed in the world and for it most importantly to be adopted is for users of microsoft products to feel comfortable on Linux.
And if that means Linux must be like Microsoft then that has to be done first to gain the support.
I am most not definately saying that it is a good idea to clone Microsoft but you must first understand how your competitor suceeds and mould that into your creation before you add ideas of your own.
It is much like understanding the problem before you solve it. You must know what the problem is (which is the orginal eg. Microsoft) and solve the problem with your own creation. (eg. Linux).
And history proves that it may be needed that a problem be recreated before your can solve anything.
Much like a reinactment of a crime scene. So you see you are not copying or cloning Microsoft products but merly incorporating their success in Linux creations.
Until you get the support you need, you must first live in the shoes of another to truly understand their perspective.
And if that means Linux must be like Microsoft then that has to be done first to gain the support.
I am most not definately saying that it is a good idea to clone Microsoft but you must first understand how your competitor suceeds and mould that into your creation before you add ideas of your own.
It is much like understanding the problem before you solve it. You must know what the problem is (which is the orginal eg. Microsoft) and solve the problem with your own creation. (eg. Linux).
And history proves that it may be needed that a problem be recreated before your can solve anything.
Much like a reinactment of a crime scene. So you see you are not copying or cloning Microsoft products but merly incorporating their success in Linux creations.
Until you get the support you need, you must first live in the shoes of another to truly understand their perspective.
You're kidding, right? Linux is still NOT ( n-o-t ) in the desktop ballgame. Dweezle_boos excluded, but not for serious folks. Here's a SOOOO typical example why.
Couple days ago RedFat automagically "upgraded" my MOZ browser<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and hosed Galeon in the process. It ain't nowhere now --- Galeon -- along with all my bookmarks. So if my job depended on those Galeon bookmarks I'd be hosed. Not once in 8 years of 7/365 use has a M$lime proggie load/update removed another program like that RedFat update did. Absolutely unacceptable damage for a "serious" computer user. Lucky I just scr*w around casual with child-like *nix and earn a living with the ADULT M$ GUI.
As I measure it, that hosing marks *nix as at least 7 years behind WinDoz. Except as a byteboyz toy I think *nix will never find a place - certainly not in the ADULT world of slick, reliable, bulletproof GUI performance.
Couple days ago RedFat automagically "upgraded" my MOZ browser<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and hosed Galeon in the process. It ain't nowhere now --- Galeon -- along with all my bookmarks. So if my job depended on those Galeon bookmarks I'd be hosed. Not once in 8 years of 7/365 use has a M$lime proggie load/update removed another program like that RedFat update did. Absolutely unacceptable damage for a "serious" computer user. Lucky I just scr*w around casual with child-like *nix and earn a living with the ADULT M$ GUI.
As I measure it, that hosing marks *nix as at least 7 years behind WinDoz. Except as a byteboyz toy I think *nix will never find a place - certainly not in the ADULT world of slick, reliable, bulletproof GUI performance.
galeon is based on gecko which is the mozilla engine. What happened was that they released the update for mozilla without also recompiling galeon. Galeon is probably still there but just broken until they update it.
By the way, you can uninstall mozilla and then re-install the previous version for now.
By the way, you can uninstall mozilla and then re-install the previous version for now.
"Not once in 8 years of 7/365 use has a M$lime proggie load/update removed another program like that RedFat update did"
Try reading the media player 9 licesne!!!
Try reading the media player 9 licesne!!!
Let's see, you presume to judge *all* of Linux by the stupidity of Red Hat's software update system? Why don't you use a REAL distro, like Slackware, or Debian, or Gentoo. Or just use FreeBSD if you're bent on total control of your system.
Slack<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Gentoo ?? Childrens toyz used world-wide by 19 & 33 adults respectively! Seriously, pad're these *nix varients are NOT business-ready systems - transparant, bulletproof desktop SOLUTIONS for a gent who either produces for customers every day or 'sleeps under a bridge'.
Debian MIGHT work for a well supported and funded large company<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... *nix as business_nazi tool<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but for the single_lusr home business Debian carries unacceptable risks. I make the plausble judgement, namely that if RedFat can't provide a bullet-proof business GUI single_lusr desktop then NO other *nix varient will.
Debian MIGHT work for a well supported and funded large company<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... *nix as business_nazi tool<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but for the single_lusr home business Debian carries unacceptable risks. I make the plausble judgement, namely that if RedFat can't provide a bullet-proof business GUI single_lusr desktop then NO other *nix varient will.
You can't even spell "toys" correctly. Are you telling me that MS Windows is a bullet-proof business-ready desktop?
Not by my standards. By my standards, a business-ready desktop resists infection by malware created by script kiddies. A business-ready desktop conforms to published open standards like POSIX and the RFCs. A business-ready desktop makes no assumptions whatsoever about the user's competence; that's the sysadmin's job.
Not by my standards. By my standards, a business-ready desktop resists infection by malware created by script kiddies. A business-ready desktop conforms to published open standards like POSIX and the RFCs. A business-ready desktop makes no assumptions whatsoever about the user's competence; that's the sysadmin's job.
Don't do much business, do ya pad're? Mom still wash yer dirty drawers? I figured so. Ever earned a $$ - didn't think so cause your "standards" are no part of any real_world scene. First, any tool needs to provide a problem solution. Then -- far as script-kiddies, they come with the business territory, like street muggers. What I don't expect is for my shoes to fray just strolling<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... or running away (from muggers). I don't expect my S&W_38 to misfire should I chose to target-practice or face the muggers. For all it's gropey pretentions, WinDoz has never done either - not ONE (1) infection or data_loss in 7-years. Not one failure to perform. While GUI *nix/OSS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... why do you have to ask?
SOOOOOO typical<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the MOZ_1.4 DLoad I did this-afternoon. RealPlayer non-functional, while my working NS_6.2.3 RealPlayer_function got hosed. "Fraying" and "misfiring" as I read the metaphor. Nice work OSS - but not surprising.
Worried about M$lime grope? That's good - pay for RedHat etcetc like I do. Worried about bugs? My advice, pad're is learn to safely use an ADULT OS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... stay off the p069 sites and wash yer own drawers.
SOOOOOO typical<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the MOZ_1.4 DLoad I did this-afternoon. RealPlayer non-functional, while my working NS_6.2.3 RealPlayer_function got hosed. "Fraying" and "misfiring" as I read the metaphor. Nice work OSS - but not surprising.
Worried about M$lime grope? That's good - pay for RedHat etcetc like I do. Worried about bugs? My advice, pad're is learn to safely use an ADULT OS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... stay off the p069 sites and wash yer own drawers.
*yawn*
I know you are just a troll here, but...
*Redhat* may not be ready for the desktop. Try Debian or another distro. Redhat is the Microsoft of Linux.
*Redhat* may not be ready for the desktop. Try Debian or another distro. Redhat is the Microsoft of Linux.
And by the way it's '*n?x', not '*nix'. If you're talking about *nix, it has been around for over 30 years.
Within the last three years (when I bought my laptop) I recall more than once that when M$ updated the Windows Media player it automatically decided that it was the default player for all types of supported media, forcing me to go back and reset it to use RealPlayer, et. al. as the defaults for what I wanted. Only recently (within about a year) has M$ tempered their arrogance with a dialog asking if WMP should redefine itself as the laptop's media god.
(Every time these was a SuSE update I've shifted more and more functions to the linux half of my laptop and resized the win partition appropriately. About all the Win side [now 1.5GB] is used for now is playing DVDs. Everything else, includeding all the Office related things is done on linux [17.5GB] As soon as someone points me to a linux DVD player that I don't have to jump through hoops to use and that plays my Lord of The Rings DVDs then the Windows parition is toast.)
(Every time these was a SuSE update I've shifted more and more functions to the linux half of my laptop and resized the win partition appropriately. About all the Win side [now 1.5GB] is used for now is playing DVDs. Everything else, includeding all the Office related things is done on linux [17.5GB] As soon as someone points me to a linux DVD player that I don't have to jump through hoops to use and that plays my Lord of The Rings DVDs then the Windows parition is toast.)
No complaint from me, pad're<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I'll be right there with ya soon as Linux can run my desktop. I'm saying nothing clever by observing -- for unsupported home_Lusrs -- the_TUX ain't there yet, and some of its "supporters" work actively to prevent it ever getting there. MySQL helps tons, but look at the MOZ fiasco !!! I'm just a working-stiff. What's my $60/yr worth ??? I hope something<nobr> <wbr></nobr>........ know what I mean?
"RedFat automagically "upgraded" my MOZ browser<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and hosed Galeon in the process"
First of all: "RedFAT" does automagically just NOTHING, you idiot! If it upgraded MOZ, it is because you told it to do so.
Second: Did Galeon came on the Red Hat CDs for you to install? I think it didn't: you downloaded from anywhere else. So how can you expect from Red Hat to control whatever untested third party programs you migth install?
Third, even if Galeon did came on your Red Hat CDs, you have other web browsers avaliable haven't you? So you didn't loose your ability to surf the web. You mentioned that your bookmarks were tossed out. Well, if they were so important to you, good news, they're already there! Weren't you so blatantly stupid you would know the sligthest portion about how your system works and you would know where could you find your bookmarks, just an HTML page you easily could find within five minutes with using just one command: `ls -la`
*IF* Red Hat provided Gecko, then, it is Red Hat's fault breaking it. But even then, "if my job depended" on something, let's say your operative system and/or your bookmarks, then no matter what can you say IT IS YOUR BLANTANT FAULT NOT HAVING THE SLIGTHEST IDEA about how does work whatever your job depends on.
You can draw flowers around it, if you want, but still, IT IS YOUR FAULT!!!
First of all: "RedFAT" does automagically just NOTHING, you idiot! If it upgraded MOZ, it is because you told it to do so.
Second: Did Galeon came on the Red Hat CDs for you to install? I think it didn't: you downloaded from anywhere else. So how can you expect from Red Hat to control whatever untested third party programs you migth install?
Third, even if Galeon did came on your Red Hat CDs, you have other web browsers avaliable haven't you? So you didn't loose your ability to surf the web. You mentioned that your bookmarks were tossed out. Well, if they were so important to you, good news, they're already there! Weren't you so blatantly stupid you would know the sligthest portion about how your system works and you would know where could you find your bookmarks, just an HTML page you easily could find within five minutes with using just one command: `ls -la`
*IF* Red Hat provided Gecko, then, it is Red Hat's fault breaking it. But even then, "if my job depended" on something, let's say your operative system and/or your bookmarks, then no matter what can you say IT IS YOUR BLANTANT FAULT NOT HAVING THE SLIGTHEST IDEA about how does work whatever your job depends on.
You can draw flowers around it, if you want, but still, IT IS YOUR FAULT!!!
Totally agree with ya, pad're<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I really needed to twiddle all that detail! But don'cha get it ?? That twiddling ain't my job! I PAY ( p-a-y ) an "adult" OS to do organizing. That's WHY - with client critical tasks - I don't rely on *nix.
dude.. your messages make so little sense I don't think anyone actually reads them. your not even effectively trolling because no one can make sense of your gibberish to even know how to respond.
It's nice that you have an "adult" around, since all your posts are rather childish...
1st place: Applications - All items in the list provided here have been REPLACED or can be used with WINE, VMware, PLEX86?
2nd place: Ease of use - Front ends for allot of the commandline utilities will be useful and quick to make. We should not go too far as to create the brain drian you get with the 'ease of use' that windows 'has'. I find windows TOO simple to the point it is impossible to accomplish many things or is confusing. Allowing users to LEARN even a little here and there is accompanied by a sense of achievment and confidence.
3rd place: OS preloaded with desktop hardware - While M$ has it's say, we can dream (most of the time).
4th/5th place: Drivers and Games - 1 thing to say about drivers, you want them, talk to the manufacturer! We are not wizzards! You want us to reverse engineer? Then put up with the bugs and don't complain if we get arrested under the DMCA. Games: Windows games - WINEX? It's simple to install. native games(3d windows ported) - shout at the manufacturers loud enough. native games (GNU/Linux originals) - Have an idea? Send it to someone who has made 3D games for GNU/Linux. Try to inspire them. Do surveys to find out what kind/styles of games will go down well.
6th place: Name recognition - Looked like a buzzword when I read it! You know what GNU/Linux is. You want more people to know? Then talk to them about it. Join a LUG and advocate. Word of mouth and communicating to people never did anyone any harm.
7th place: Easier installation of applications - Hmmm. APT is probably mostley there, but what can be done about the others without killing off the other formats. suggestions?
8th place: Better Microsoft Office file filters - DMCA may peek in here. Talk to M$. We can only go so far when reverse engineering M$ stuff as they will ON PURPOSE alter the 'standard' to thow us off. Try forgetting M$ formats and advocate more portable and standard formats. Bet you didn't know that you can create a web page in M$ Word, change the extention to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc, and Word will load it as a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc perfectly without complaining!
9th place: Better documentation - We need to get in the habbit of writing more detailed comments in the code. I have found it helps me to write good docs!
10th place: Hot plug-and-play - Never heard of it. Unless you mean PCI plug and play, which is only usable in servers and already has developing support in Linux (remember Linux is a KERNEL not an OS). If your talking about USB plug and play...where have you been? I'm assuming it's not refering to ps2 keyboard/mouse plug and play. Now thats just silly.
2nd place: Ease of use - Front ends for allot of the commandline utilities will be useful and quick to make. We should not go too far as to create the brain drian you get with the 'ease of use' that windows 'has'. I find windows TOO simple to the point it is impossible to accomplish many things or is confusing. Allowing users to LEARN even a little here and there is accompanied by a sense of achievment and confidence.
3rd place: OS preloaded with desktop hardware - While M$ has it's say, we can dream (most of the time).
4th/5th place: Drivers and Games - 1 thing to say about drivers, you want them, talk to the manufacturer! We are not wizzards! You want us to reverse engineer? Then put up with the bugs and don't complain if we get arrested under the DMCA. Games: Windows games - WINEX? It's simple to install. native games(3d windows ported) - shout at the manufacturers loud enough. native games (GNU/Linux originals) - Have an idea? Send it to someone who has made 3D games for GNU/Linux. Try to inspire them. Do surveys to find out what kind/styles of games will go down well.
6th place: Name recognition - Looked like a buzzword when I read it! You know what GNU/Linux is. You want more people to know? Then talk to them about it. Join a LUG and advocate. Word of mouth and communicating to people never did anyone any harm.
7th place: Easier installation of applications - Hmmm. APT is probably mostley there, but what can be done about the others without killing off the other formats. suggestions?
8th place: Better Microsoft Office file filters - DMCA may peek in here. Talk to M$. We can only go so far when reverse engineering M$ stuff as they will ON PURPOSE alter the 'standard' to thow us off. Try forgetting M$ formats and advocate more portable and standard formats. Bet you didn't know that you can create a web page in M$ Word, change the extention to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc, and Word will load it as a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.doc perfectly without complaining!
9th place: Better documentation - We need to get in the habbit of writing more detailed comments in the code. I have found it helps me to write good docs!
10th place: Hot plug-and-play - Never heard of it. Unless you mean PCI plug and play, which is only usable in servers and already has developing support in Linux (remember Linux is a KERNEL not an OS). If your talking about USB plug and play...where have you been? I'm assuming it's not refering to ps2 keyboard/mouse plug and play. Now thats just silly.
The whole idea of open source is for people to contribute and better that piece of software!
if you don't appreciate advancedments then you can stick with your current distro (and 2.4/2.5 of your kernel)
who says it'll be a windows clone? are we abandoning 32bit? the windows frontend is 32bit but the underlaying DOS isn't.
X is ok for the moment but I do agree that we do need something better.
Hardware compatability? isn't it better if windows compatible hardware also works under linux?
it seems some of you are intent on keeping Linux in a minority sector
if you don't appreciate advancedments then you can stick with your current distro (and 2.4/2.5 of your kernel)
who says it'll be a windows clone? are we abandoning 32bit? the windows frontend is 32bit but the underlaying DOS isn't.
X is ok for the moment but I do agree that we do need something better.
Hardware compatability? isn't it better if windows compatible hardware also works under linux?
it seems some of you are intent on keeping Linux in a minority sector
Some of us are intent on using it. And those of us who do, find it more than usable.
Every moment linux is getting better and that direction has been dictated by those who use it and modify it to suit their needs (+ those of others.)
The only ones who keep linux in the minority are those who can't be bothered to learn to use it.
People were forced to learn windows at work/school/home/whatever. There is nothing forcing people to use linux. (nor should there be!)
Linux will continue to grow in the way that's most useful for it's users.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Live with it!
Every moment linux is getting better and that direction has been dictated by those who use it and modify it to suit their needs (+ those of others.)
The only ones who keep linux in the minority are those who can't be bothered to learn to use it.
People were forced to learn windows at work/school/home/whatever. There is nothing forcing people to use linux. (nor should there be!)
Linux will continue to grow in the way that's most useful for it's users.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
Live with it!
If I go to Best Buy, etc, and see a nice linux system that is bundled with a printer and a digital camera for a better price than the same bundle with windows, I will know that linux is "safe enough" for anybody. When I can just buy a bundle and take it to a relatives house, put it together and be done, I will be happy. No winmodems, no winprinters, etc... Good 3d for tuxracer and the other games and nobody will complain. Take your camera, take some pictures, load them onto the computer with no hassle, and print easily and everybody is happy.
Until then Microsoft will be the "safe" choice for 99% of people buying computers.
Until then Microsoft will be the "safe" choice for 99% of people buying computers.
If I go to Best Buy, etc, and see a nice linux system that is bundled with a printer and a digital camera for a better price than the same bundle with windows, I will know that linux is "safe enough" for anybody.
This day will come when enough people show vendors with their words (email, inquiries, etc.) and especially WALLETS that they want Linux. Don't buy a PC built for Windows; buy one built for Linux. If something doesn't list Linux support (even if Linux supports it), email the vendor and tell them, "Yeah, I'm considering your product, but I notice you don't support my operating system, Linux, and that concerns me...."
Things will only change when people make it change. If you are simply complacent, you're adding to the problem (both by showing vendors that their users want Windows only, and by giving your money to Microsoft, which is currently using it to screw over Linux (see also their Linux Emergency Defection Slush Fund)).
If you like so much, MS office go ahead use it
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 17, 2003 10:18 PM
SuSE Linux Office Desktop[0] comes with Codeweavers CrossOver Office, let you run office Visio 2000, Lotus Notes R5, Intuit Quicken 2002, and others. A list of the applications supported by CrossOver Office is provided here[1]
but this solution isn't a free windows clone, just a windows with different kernel, with all the problems of the propietary software
[0]http://www.suse.com/us/private/products/suse_l<nobr>i<wbr></nobr> nux/office_desktop/index.html
[1]http://www.codeweavers.com/products/office/sup<nobr>p<wbr></nobr> orted_applications.php
but this solution isn't a free windows clone, just a windows with different kernel, with all the problems of the propietary software
[0]http://www.suse.com/us/private/products/suse_l<nobr>i<wbr></nobr> nux/office_desktop/index.html
[1]http://www.codeweavers.com/products/office/sup<nobr>p<wbr></nobr> orted_applications.php
1) Mozilla Calendar to work properly
Currently it is crippled and needs some work. It should support ITIP and read emailed Outlook events.
2) Table support in Abiword, better table support in kword
3) Release of OSAFoundation Chandler PIM - (and work)
4) GNUe small business accounting software to be released (and work). Integrated Addressbook with email system.
5) OpenOffice more accessible to programmers
It is difficult for developers to get started and contribute to this project as it is so large and complex.
6) OpenOffice to start quicker in linux (like the Ximian Hack)
7) A Lotus Approach/MS Access/FileMaker Pro replacement
8) Wine to play Windows Children's games more easily. Currently my experience is that they take a lot of tweaking and then don't necessarily run.
Wine to run Macromedia Dreamweaver.
9) Mozilla mail to support Notepad/Memo function.
The messages could be storable in imap folders.
10) Grammar checker in OpenOffice (for non native english speakers)
<A HREF="http://xminc.com/linux" TITLE="xminc.com">http://xminc.com/linux</a xminc.com>
Currently it is crippled and needs some work. It should support ITIP and read emailed Outlook events.
2) Table support in Abiword, better table support in kword
3) Release of OSAFoundation Chandler PIM - (and work)
4) GNUe small business accounting software to be released (and work). Integrated Addressbook with email system.
5) OpenOffice more accessible to programmers
It is difficult for developers to get started and contribute to this project as it is so large and complex.
6) OpenOffice to start quicker in linux (like the Ximian Hack)
7) A Lotus Approach/MS Access/FileMaker Pro replacement
8) Wine to play Windows Children's games more easily. Currently my experience is that they take a lot of tweaking and then don't necessarily run.
Wine to run Macromedia Dreamweaver.
9) Mozilla mail to support Notepad/Memo function.
The messages could be storable in imap folders.
10) Grammar checker in OpenOffice (for non native english speakers)
<A HREF="http://xminc.com/linux" TITLE="xminc.com">http://xminc.com/linux</a xminc.com>
Why would someone want Linux more like Windows? More applications, yes it needs them. AutoCad Photoshop, Macromedia products such as studio MX (and improvements on their players), and GAMES!!
Linux IS easy to use...if you bother to learn it. Too many people think that you can just jump onto linux and start using it. They aren't able to do it with windows which is why you see that annoying video professor all the time. What annoys me is these people that get on a computer and the 'net and complain that they don't know how to do it with windows. This kind of crap only leads to things like Identity theft and various other electronic crimes.
Preload? Find a small shop instead of buying mainstream crap and you might very well get it. My shop will preload linux on a machine if you want it.
better 3d video card drivers? common people, Nvidia has the best support out there for linux of any hardware manufacturer just about. If I'm not mistaken, they make 3d video cards. I also mentioned earlier about games, there are linux only games and yes, the windows ports of games need to be avaiable on a NATIVE linux.
Most of my clients and customer DO recognize Linux. This falls on people like us. I work with the public, when they ask what I use, I tell them. When they ask why, I tell them. If they ask what I recommend, I tell them. But then I'm an honest person and work for an honest and trustworthy company so when I say something people actually believe me. I don't/won't sell something to someone they don't need/want just to boost my sales.
Easier application installing? I'll agree... to an extent. "emerge gaim" or "rpm -i gaim" can't be all that hard. The problem is the lack of being asked for if/where to put "shortcuts" to the programs. This falls back more on ease of use if you ask me, and more over falls into the "learn your system" thing.
Better MS filters, ummm, pardon me, but have you ever had to deal with some of that MS crap? Office, yes, that can always stand improvement simply because so many people use that crap. Other things? Get real. I just spent an entire day working to import 4527 dialup numbers into Microsoft's "phone book administrator". This just leaps to mind because that was yesterday. Let's not screw Linux up to make it compatible with an OS that thinks it's way is the only way and doesn't follow established standards.
Better Documentation? AMEN!!!!!
Hotswap? It's available, take a look at gentoo, I've been using hotswap for...umm, almost a year now I believe.
Linux IS easy to use...if you bother to learn it. Too many people think that you can just jump onto linux and start using it. They aren't able to do it with windows which is why you see that annoying video professor all the time. What annoys me is these people that get on a computer and the 'net and complain that they don't know how to do it with windows. This kind of crap only leads to things like Identity theft and various other electronic crimes.
Preload? Find a small shop instead of buying mainstream crap and you might very well get it. My shop will preload linux on a machine if you want it.
better 3d video card drivers? common people, Nvidia has the best support out there for linux of any hardware manufacturer just about. If I'm not mistaken, they make 3d video cards. I also mentioned earlier about games, there are linux only games and yes, the windows ports of games need to be avaiable on a NATIVE linux.
Most of my clients and customer DO recognize Linux. This falls on people like us. I work with the public, when they ask what I use, I tell them. When they ask why, I tell them. If they ask what I recommend, I tell them. But then I'm an honest person and work for an honest and trustworthy company so when I say something people actually believe me. I don't/won't sell something to someone they don't need/want just to boost my sales.
Easier application installing? I'll agree... to an extent. "emerge gaim" or "rpm -i gaim" can't be all that hard. The problem is the lack of being asked for if/where to put "shortcuts" to the programs. This falls back more on ease of use if you ask me, and more over falls into the "learn your system" thing.
Better MS filters, ummm, pardon me, but have you ever had to deal with some of that MS crap? Office, yes, that can always stand improvement simply because so many people use that crap. Other things? Get real. I just spent an entire day working to import 4527 dialup numbers into Microsoft's "phone book administrator". This just leaps to mind because that was yesterday. Let's not screw Linux up to make it compatible with an OS that thinks it's way is the only way and doesn't follow established standards.
Better Documentation? AMEN!!!!!
Hotswap? It's available, take a look at gentoo, I've been using hotswap for...umm, almost a year now I believe.
I agree 100%. Most people who complain about Linux being hard to learn are in my experiance just starting to use it. If those people will remember when they first started using DOS/Windows or the MacOS how hard it seemed then. Linux is the same, it's hard at first, but when you learn it it becomes easy.
Sorry English is not my first language if my grammer and spelling are bad.
Sisu!
Sorry English is not my first language if my grammer and spelling are bad.
Sisu!
Better Apps... Autocad would be nice but I would rather have TurboCad. It is cheaper and I feel it fits in with the whole linux users ideal better. What would get CAD people to move to Linux once AutoCad and or Tubocad are available? 64 bit support. Cad needs speed and big drawings use a lot of memory.
Documentation. You bet your sweet bippy. One the numbers are up then you will have better documention. There is already an Open Office book out.
Speaking of Open Office. The new RC1 is pretty dang good an importing Word docs. I tried it with our order form here and it almost got it close enough. We may be moving our office to it soon.
Documentation. You bet your sweet bippy. One the numbers are up then you will have better documention. There is already an Open Office book out.
Speaking of Open Office. The new RC1 is pretty dang good an importing Word docs. I tried it with our order form here and it almost got it close enough. We may be moving our office to it soon.
you really broke the bank on the numbers there. Are these people even in different demographics?
Phil.
Phil.
We want mainstream users? Well, follow this train of thought for a major obstacle to Linux adoption...
The majority of people are still on dial-up.
The *vast* majority of dial-up users are using $10 winmodems (software based modems).
Linux has no proper support for these.
Joe User installs Linux, but can't connect to the Internet. Joe User reinstalls Windows.
No, Joe User doesn't know what kernel he's using to grab the distribution-specific, kernel-specific, gcc-specific version of the linmodem drivers binaries.
No, Joe User can't download source and compile and install the drivers himself.
Joe User rightfully expects the operating system to be able to use his modem immediately once the OS is installed. The first thing he wants to do is check his e-mail.
Duh. Joe User isn't going to use Linux until Linux can use his modem.
The majority of people are still on dial-up.
The *vast* majority of dial-up users are using $10 winmodems (software based modems).
Linux has no proper support for these.
Joe User installs Linux, but can't connect to the Internet. Joe User reinstalls Windows.
No, Joe User doesn't know what kernel he's using to grab the distribution-specific, kernel-specific, gcc-specific version of the linmodem drivers binaries.
No, Joe User can't download source and compile and install the drivers himself.
Joe User rightfully expects the operating system to be able to use his modem immediately once the OS is installed. The first thing he wants to do is check his e-mail.
Duh. Joe User isn't going to use Linux until Linux can use his modem.
If he's foolish enough to use a defective modem, then Microsoft can bloody well keep him.
>The majority of people are still on dial-up.
This is changing rapidly. Most of the people I know now have dial-up DSL. My neighborhood has optical cable for the net, so all the houses have the option of getting something called DSL from Bellsouth, but without a modem -- an RJ45 plug in the wall, that's it. (about 1Mbit rate when receiving.) I know of only a few people who use their phone for a dial-up ISP.
The dial-up connection is rapidly disappearing. Why invest so much energy in something that most people will stop using in the forseeable future?
That's fine for people in places like your urban USA suburb, but you are only a small percentage of the world population.
Or to put it another way<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... stop being so narrow-minded! - There is life outside of the USA<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and lots of it! - And guess what - Linux started _outside_ of the USA!
Or to put it another way<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... stop being so narrow-minded! - There is life outside of the USA<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and lots of it! - And guess what - Linux started _outside_ of the USA!
List of features.
1. Better LDAP support. For distributions out of the box be ready to go with / host an LDAP directory. Each distributions normal config tools modified with the option of making changes to LDAP or flat files. Integrated as many services as possible (Samba, Netatalk, NFS). LDAP is here, but difficult to set up at this point.
2. A super easy to use development evironment (VB simple). Something similar to Mozillas XUL but very easy to write with inline code. Any language can be embeded (from php thru java). Each environment(KDE,Gnome. Etc) would have a native display engine for these programs. Lots of simple but usefull little programs should result
3. A powerful network system management util. The ability to manage workstations by placeing them in groups, and pushing out updated software them, and network install new workstations
4. Better User interface responsiveness, or perceived responsiveness. The graphical interface can seem slow, expecially when loading programs. I know some will blame X for this, but I think a lot has to do with program linking. Maybe memory blocks from linked version of programs can left in memory so that the next time the program loads, it loads a lot faster. Also when a program start up, if the window manager popped up a window with a busy indicator, then resized that window arround the app when it opened. That would make program load seem faster.
1. Better LDAP support. For distributions out of the box be ready to go with / host an LDAP directory. Each distributions normal config tools modified with the option of making changes to LDAP or flat files. Integrated as many services as possible (Samba, Netatalk, NFS). LDAP is here, but difficult to set up at this point.
2. A super easy to use development evironment (VB simple). Something similar to Mozillas XUL but very easy to write with inline code. Any language can be embeded (from php thru java). Each environment(KDE,Gnome. Etc) would have a native display engine for these programs. Lots of simple but usefull little programs should result
3. A powerful network system management util. The ability to manage workstations by placeing them in groups, and pushing out updated software them, and network install new workstations
4. Better User interface responsiveness, or perceived responsiveness. The graphical interface can seem slow, expecially when loading programs. I know some will blame X for this, but I think a lot has to do with program linking. Maybe memory blocks from linked version of programs can left in memory so that the next time the program loads, it loads a lot faster. Also when a program start up, if the window manager popped up a window with a busy indicator, then resized that window arround the app when it opened. That would make program load seem faster.
What linux needs is a common scripting language to control linux apps via IPC commands. (Ok, maybe there is one, but I haven't found it in SuSE.)
The only thing I miss about my Amiga is Arexx. If a program didn't do exactly what I needed, I could make a script that would make it work. The image processor didn't have to know diddly about the single frame recording deck, but because both apps supported Arexx, so I could make a script to post process images and write them to tape automatically.
Different linux apps use different scripting and macro languages. Things just don't integrate very well. Take the scripting for Gimp -- how many applications use it? It looks like a project from a Phd dissertation -- clever on the surface, but ultimately impractical. (Multiply nested list processing with scant ability to evaluate expressions.) Arg!
But that's just me.
The only thing I miss about my Amiga is Arexx. If a program didn't do exactly what I needed, I could make a script that would make it work. The image processor didn't have to know diddly about the single frame recording deck, but because both apps supported Arexx, so I could make a script to post process images and write them to tape automatically.
Different linux apps use different scripting and macro languages. Things just don't integrate very well. Take the scripting for Gimp -- how many applications use it? It looks like a project from a Phd dissertation -- clever on the surface, but ultimately impractical. (Multiply nested list processing with scant ability to evaluate expressions.) Arg!
But that's just me.
Perhaps the weirdest postment in this topic<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the issues where I do not use Linux<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I have started using Linux as my main operating system for about 5 years now<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... mainly because M$ Windows f*cked up everthing DOS had<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... control, stability, diversity and performance (after some tuning)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I find Linux the perfect OS for my day-to-day work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Star Office 5.1 was the main killer for using Windows as my mainstream platform<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I had never experinced such a stable OS before (around win98/me)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Because of my job and curiousity I install newer versions of Windows some of the time<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... even XP<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... one thing I have experienced is that a stability sucks with XP<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... lot of Windows users also find that<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I think Linux could exploit this weakness<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
The one thing I use M$ windows for is gaming<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... when I talk to people about switching<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the main issue is gaming support<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I most of the time ask them why they don't buy a game console<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I also have to admit that on the M$ Windows platform some types of apps are better supported<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Linux is technical<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I am technically challenged<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... most people are not<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... although current dirstos are making it quite easy<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
One thing I would like to add<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... what Linux would make superior<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... is to listen at the whining of the M$ users<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... if we want to make Linux mainstream we have to match their demands<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but we should not forget the aspects we use Linux for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I have started using Linux as my main operating system for about 5 years now<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... mainly because M$ Windows f*cked up everthing DOS had<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... control, stability, diversity and performance (after some tuning)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I find Linux the perfect OS for my day-to-day work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Star Office 5.1 was the main killer for using Windows as my mainstream platform<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I had never experinced such a stable OS before (around win98/me)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Because of my job and curiousity I install newer versions of Windows some of the time<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... even XP<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... one thing I have experienced is that a stability sucks with XP<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... lot of Windows users also find that<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I think Linux could exploit this weakness<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
The one thing I use M$ windows for is gaming<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... when I talk to people about switching<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the main issue is gaming support<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I most of the time ask them why they don't buy a game console<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I also have to admit that on the M$ Windows platform some types of apps are better supported<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Linux is technical<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I am technically challenged<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... most people are not<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... although current dirstos are making it quite easy<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
One thing I would like to add<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... what Linux would make superior<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... is to listen at the whining of the M$ users<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... if we want to make Linux mainstream we have to match their demands<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but we should not forget the aspects we use Linux for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
You say plenty in that last sentence, pad're. There's a "sweet-spot" for OS behavior as a casual-Lusr sees it. Ol' DOS ( and vert-integrated apps )came close to hitting that bulzeye. Modern WinDoz ( ME/XP<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...) obscure too much "common workings" and leave ya blind, unlearning & dependent when stuff goes wrong or 'upgraded'. Other hand, most of those " common workings " in *nix are both exposed AND unapproachable for any , but the guru. Just try - i dare ya - to do a DOS_like "put_pixal" to XWIN.
Good luck!! My feeling<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... *nix needs a "straight-six" lusr-interface layer - gawdsakes don't say b-a-s-h_him: but some combo of CLI/GUI<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...appropriately tuned to the unsupported Lusr.
Good luck!! My feeling<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... *nix needs a "straight-six" lusr-interface layer - gawdsakes don't say b-a-s-h_him: but some combo of CLI/GUI<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...appropriately tuned to the unsupported Lusr.
I would boot into linux more often if It had the graphics acceleration because after checking email and news on the web I would most likely be doing a bit of gaming so for convenience I still use windows mainly. Also installing for a neophyte like myself was at first a bit daunting until I sort of figured out that rpm thing. I still believe linux is for the more intelligent computer user and when I have time I will read the man pages again.
Linux is only one small, albeit vital, component of the GNU/Linux variant of the GNU operating system. It is the kernel; the part that talks to the hardware and performs various other low level tasks. You can't really do much with just a kernel. The GNU operating system also comes in several other variants, including GNU/BSD, GNU/Hurd, even GNU/MacOSX. The entire GNU Free (as in Freedom) Software lineup is available for just about any modern POSIX-based system running on just about any modern CPU. Certain systems, such as stock MacOSX do come with their own proprietary alternatives to the many essential user space (as opposed to kernel space) components of a modern, working, POSIX system, but those alternatives are generally of lower quality (both ethically and from an engineering standpoint) and are less mature than the GNU components. If you want to give the GNU components a try, or if you already have but you're unfamiliar with what GNU actually is, check out: <A HREF="http://www.gnu.org/" TITLE="gnu.org">http://www.gnu.org/</a gnu.org>
Rich
Rich
More users
Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 16, 2003 05:13 PMSounds like the 'revolution' is on life support.
#