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Some notes on the "Who wrote Linux" kerfuffle

By Andrew S. Tanenbaum on May 20, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)

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The history of Unix and its various children and grandchildren has been in the news recently as a result of a book from the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution. Since I was involved in part of this history, I feel I have an obligation to set the record straight and correct some extremely serious errors.

But first some background information. Ken Brown, President of the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution, contacted me in early March. He said he was writing a book on the history of Unix and would like to interview me. Since I have written 15 books and have been involved in the history of Unix in several ways, I said I was willing to help out. I have been interviewed by many people for many reasons over the years, and have been on Dutch and US TV and radio and in various newspapers and magazines, so I didn't think too much about it.

Brown flew over to Amsterdam to interview me on 23 March 2004. Apparently I was the only reason for his coming to Europe. The interview got off to a shaky start, roughly paraphrased as follows:


AST: "What's the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution?"
KB: We do public policy work
AST: A think tank, like the Rand Corporation?
KB: Sort of
AST: What does it do?
KB: Issue reports and books
AST: Who funds it?
KB: We have multiple funding sources
AST: Is SCO one of them? Is this about the SCO lawsuit?
KB: We have multiple funding sources
AST: Is Microsoft one of them?
KB: We have multiple funding sources

He was extremely evasive about why he was there and who was funding him. He just kept saying he was just writing a book about the history of Unix. I asked him what he thought of Peter Salus' book, A Quarter Century of Unix. He'd never heard of it! I mean, if you are writing a book on the history of Unix and flying 3000 miles to interview some guy about the subject, wouldn't it make sense to at least go to amazon.com and type "history Unix" in the search box, in which case Salus' book is the first hit? For $28 (and free shipping if you play your cards right) you could learn an awful lot about the material and not get any jet lag. As I sooned learned, Brown is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I was already suspicious. As a long-time author, I know it makes sense to at least be aware of what the competition is. He didn't bother.

Unix and me

I didn't think it odd that Brown would want to interview me about the history of Unix. There are worse people to ask. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I spent several summers in the Unix group (Dept. 1127) at Bell Labs. I knew Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, and the rest of the people involved in the development of Unix. I have stayed at Rob Pike's house and Al Aho's house for extended periods of time. Dennis Ritchie, Steve Johnson, and Peter Weinberger, among others have stayed at my house in Amsterdam. Three of my Ph.D. students have worked in the Unix group at Bell Labs and one of them is a permanent staff member now.

Oddly enough, when I was at Bell Labs, my interest was not operating systems, although I had written one and published a paper about it (see "Software - Practice & Experience," vol. 2, pp. 109-119, 1973). My interest then was compilers, since I was the chief designer of the the Amsterdam Compiler Kit (see Commun. of the ACM, vol. 26, pp. 654-660, Sept. 1983.). I spent some time there discussing compilers with Steve Johnson, networking with Greg Chesson, writing tools with Lorinda Cherry, and book authoring with Brian Kernighan, among many others. I also became friends with the other "foreigner," there, Bjarne Stroustrup, who would later go on to design and implement C++.

In short, although I had nothing to do with the development of the original Unix, I knew all the people involved and much of the history quite well. Furthermore, my contact with the Unix group at Bell Labs was not a secret; I even thanked them all for having me as a summer visitor in the preface to the first edition of my book Computer Networks. Amazingly, Brown knew nothing about any of this. He didn't do his homework before embarking on his little project

MINIX and me

Years later, I was teaching a course on operating systems and using John Lions' book on Unix Version 6. When AT&T decided to forbid the teaching of the Unix internals, I decided to write my own version of Unix, free of all AT&T code and restrictions, so I could teach from it. My inspiration was not my time at Bell Labs, although the knowledge that one person could write a Unix-like operating system (Ken Thompson wrote UNICS on a PDP-7) told me it could be done. My real inspiration was an off-hand remark by Butler Lampson in an operating systems course I took from him when I was a Ph.D. student at Berkeley. Lampson had just finished describing the pioneering CTSS operating system and said, in his inimitable way: "Is there anybody here who couldn't write CTSS in a month?" Nobody raised his hand. I concluded that you'd have to be real dumb not to be able to write an operating system in a month. The paper cited above is an operating system I wrote at Berkeley with the help of Bill Benson. It took a lot more than a month, but I am not as smart as Butler. Nobody is.

I set out to write a minimal Unix clone, MINIX, and did it alone. The code was 100% free of AT&T's intellectual property. The full source code was published in 1987 as the appendix to a book, Operating Systems: Design and Implementation, which later went into a second edition co-authored with Al Woodhull. MINIX 2.0 was even POSIX-conformant. Both editions contained hundreds of pages of text describing the code in great detail. A box of 10 floppy disks containing all the binaries and source code was available separately from Prentice Hall for $69.

While this not free software in the sense of "free beer" it was free software in the sense of "free speech" since all the source code was available for only slightly more than the manufacturing cost. But even "free speech" is not completely "free"--think about slander, yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, etc. And this was before the Patriot Act, which requires John Ashcroft's written permission before you can open your mouth. Also Remember (if you are old enough) that by 1987, a university educational license for Unix cost $300, a commercial license for a university cost $28,000, and a commercial license for a company cost a lot more. For the first time, MINIX brought the cost of "Unix-like" source code down to something a student could afford. Prentice Hall wasn't really interested in selling software. They were interested in selling books, so there was a fairly liberal policy on copying MINIX, but if a company wanted to sell it to make big bucks, PH wanted a royalty. Hence the PH lawyers equipped MINIX with a lot of boilerplate, but there was never any intention of really enforcing this against universities or students. Using the Internet for distributing that much code was not feasible in 1987, even for people with a high-speed (i.e., 1200 bps) modem. When distribution via the Internet became feasible, I convinced Prentice Hall to drop its (extremely modest) commercial ambitions and they gave me permission to put the source on my website for free downloading, where it still is.

Within a couple of months of its release, MINIX became something of a cult item, with its own USENET newsgroup, comp.os.minix, with 40,000 subscribers. Many people added new utility programs and improved the kernel in numerous of ways, but the original kernel was just the work of one person--me. Many people started pestering me about improving it. In addition to the many messages in the USENET newsgroup, I was getting 200 e-mails a day (at a time when only the chosen few had e-mail at all) saying things like: "I need pseudoterminals and I need them by Friday." My answer was generally quick and to the point: "No."

The reason for my frequent "no" was that everyone was trying to turn MINIX into a production-quality Unix system and I didn't want it to get so complicated that it would become useless for my purpose, namely, teaching it to students. I also expected that the niche for a free production-quality Unix system would be filled by either GNU or Berkeley Unix shortly, so I wasn't really aiming at that. As it turned out, the GNU OS sort of went nowhere (although many Unix utilities were written) and Berkeley Unix got tied up in a lawsuit when its designers formed a company, BSDI, to sell it and they chose 1-800-ITS Unix as their phone number. AT&T felt this constituted copyright infringement and sued them. It took a couple of years for this to get resolved. This delay in getting free BSD out there gave Linux the breathing space it needed to catch on. If it hadn't been for the lawsuit, undoubtedly BSD would have filled the niche for a powerful, free Unix clone as it was already a stable, mature system with a large following.

Ken Brown and me

Now Ken Brown shows up and begins asking questions. I quickly determined that he didn't know a thing about the history of Unix, had never heard of the Salus book, and knew nothing about BSD and the AT&T lawsuit. I started to tell him the history, but he stopped me and said he was more interested in the legal aspects. I said: "Oh you mean about Dennis Ritchie's patent number 4135240 on the setuid bit?" Then I added:"That's not a problem. Bell Labs dedicated the patent." That's when I discovered that (1) he had never heard of the patent, (2) did not know what it meant to dedicate a patent (i.e., put it in the public domain), and (3) really did not know a thing about intellectual property law. He was confused about patents, copyrights, and trademarks. Gratuitously, I asked if he was a lawyer, but it was obvious he was not and he admitted it. At this point I was still thinking he might be a spy from SCO, but if he was, SCO was not getting its money's worth.

He wanted to go on about the ownership issue, but he was also trying to avoid telling me what his real purpose was, so he didn't phrase his questions very well. Finally he asked me if I thought Linus wrote Linux. I said that to the best of my knowledge, Linus wrote the whole kernel himself, but after it was released, other people began improving the kernel, which was very primitive initially, and adding new software to the system--essentially the same development model as MINIX. Then he began to focus on this, with questions like: "Didn't he steal pieces of MINIX without permission." I told him that MINIX had clearly had a huge influence on Linux in many ways, from the layout of the file system to the names in the source tree, but I didn't think Linus had used any of my code. Linus also used MINIX as his development platform initially, but there was nothing wrong with that. He asked if I objected to that and I said no, I didn't, people were free to use it as they wished for noncommercial purposes. Later MINIX was released under the Berkeley license, which freed it up for all purposes. It is still in surprisingly wide use, both for education and in the Third World, where millions of people are happy as a clam to have an old castoff 1-MB 386, on which MINIX runs just fine. The MINIX home page cited above still gets more than 1000 hits a week.

Finally, Brown began to focus sharply. He kept asking, in different forms, how one person could write an operating system all by himself. He simply didn't believe that was possible. So I had to give him more history, sigh. To start with, Ken Thompson wrote UNICS for the PDP-7 all by himself. When it was later moved to the PDP-11 and rewritten in C, Dennis Ritchie joined the team, but primarily focused on designing the C language, writing the C compiler, and writing the I/O system and device drivers. Ken wrote nearly all of the kernel himself.

In 1983, a now-defunct company named the Mark Williams company produced and sold a very good Unix clone called Coherent. Most of the work was done by Bob Swartz. I used this system for a while and it was very solid.

In 1983, Rick Holt published a book, now out of print, on the TUNIS system, a Unix-like system. This was certainly a rewrite since TUNIS was written in a completely new language, concurrent Euclid.

Then Doug Comer wrote XINU. While also not a Unix clone, it was a comparable system.

By the time Linus started, five people had independently implemented the Unix kernel or something approximating it, namely, Thompson, Swartz, Holt, Comer, and me. All of this was perfectly legal and nobody stole anything. Given this history, it is pretty hard to make a case that one person can't implement a system of the complexity of Linux, whose original size was about the same as V1.0 of MINIX.

Of course it is always true in science that people build upon the work of their predecessors. Even Ken Thompson wasn't the first. Before writing Unix, Ken had worked on the MIT MULTICS (MULTiplexed Information and Computing Service) system. In fact, the original name of Unix was UNICS, a joke made by Brian Kernighan standing for the UNIplexed Information and Computing Service, since the PDP-7 version could support only one user--Ken. After too many bad puns about EUNUCHS being a castrated MULTICS, the name was changed to Unix. But even MULTICS wasn't first. Before it was the above-mentioned CTSS, designed by the same team at MIT.

Thus, of course, Linus didn't sit down in a vacuum and suddenly type in the Linux source code. He had my book, was running MINIX, and undoubtedly knew the history (since it is in my book). But the code was his. The proof of this is that he messed the design up. MINIX is a nice, modular microkernel system, with the memory manager and file system running as user-space processes. This makes the system cleaner and more reliable than a big monolithic kernel and easier to debug and maintain, at a small price in performance, although even on a 4.77 MHz 8088 it booted in maybe 5 seconds (vs. a minute for Windows on hardware 500 times faster). Instead of writing a new file system and a new memory manager, which would have been easy, he rewrote the whole thing as a big monolithic kernel, complete with inline assembly code :-( . The first version of Linux was like a time machine. It went back to a system worse than what he already had on his desk. Of course, he was just a kid and didn't know better (although if he had paid better attention in class he should have), but producing a system that was fundamentally different from the base he started with seems pretty good proof that it was a redesign. I don't think he could have copied Unix because he didn't have access to the Unix source code, except maybe John Lions' book, which is about an earlier version of Unix that does not resemble Linux so much.

My conclusion is the Ken Brown doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. I also have grave questions about his methodology. After he talked to me, he prowled the university halls buttonholing random students and asking them questions. Not exactly primary sources.

The six people I know of who (re)wrote Unix all did it independently and nobody stole anything from anyone. Brown's remark that people have tried and failed for 30 years to build Unix-like systems is patent nonsense. Six different people did it independently of one another. In science it is considered important to credit people for their ideas, and I think Linus has done this far less than he should have. Ken and Dennis are the real heros here. But Linus sloppiness about attribution is no reason to assert that Linus didn't write Linux. He didn't write CTSS and he didn't write MULTICS and didn't write Unix and he didn't write MINIX, but he did write Linux. I think Brown owes a number of us an apology.

Linus and me

Some of you may find it odd that I am defending Linus here. After all, he and I had a fairly public "debate" some years back. My primary concern here is getting trying to get the truth out and not blame everything on some teenage girl from the back hills of West Virginia. Also, Linus and I are not "enemies" or anything like that. I met him once and he seemed like a nice friendly, smart guy. My only regret is that he didn't develop Linux based on the microkernel technology of MINIX. With all the security problems Windows has now, it is increasingly obvious to everyone that tiny microkernels, like that of MINIX, are a better base for operating systems than huge monolithic systems. Linux has been the victim of fewer attacks than Windows because (1) it actually is more secure, but also (2) most attackers think hitting Windows offers a bigger bang for the buck so Windows simply gets attacked more. As I did 20 years ago, I still fervently believe that the only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features.

Andrew S. Tanenbaum is a Professor of Computer Science at Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. This article originally appeared on his own web site and is republished here with his permission.

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Comments

on Some notes on the "Who wrote Linux" kerfuffle

Note: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.

Hmm...

Posted by: OwlWhacker on May 20, 2004 11:06 PM
This seems to back up the idea that people who believe SCO has a case don't have a clue about the situation.

Baseless opinions are worth about as much as a wild guess.

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microkernel debate redux

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 20, 2004 11:10 PM
This article effectively disposes both the AdTI thesis and its presenter, thank you very much. So much for Ken Brown. As for the microkernel debate, Tanenbaum has a point that monolithic architectures are probably less secure. However, experience has shown that a true microkernel results in excessive kernel/user mode transitions for many demanding applications, including common ones like games and computer browsers. Of course, Microsoft exacerbated the problem on Windows by bundling rich desktop apps as "architectural components" of the OS in a (mostly successful) attempt to defeat competitors and antitrust regulators. Maybe there is a middle ground between today's OS architectures and the microkernel designs of the '80s.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: WarPengi on May 21, 2004 04:24 AM
I have read extensively on this including some of the discussion between Tanenbaum and Torvalds.
What I have gleaned there is a problem with scaling the micro-kernel system. It just is not feasible to have every app. and a lot of processes with there own hardware calls. It would mean each app you install would, essentially have to come with drivers and given the huge variety of hardware combinations this is just not doable.

I expect there is a place for the micro-kernel architecture but the evidence is that there are no micro-kernel operating systems in common usage today.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 04:44 AM
The fact that nobody uses it is not evidence that is not good. Similarily nobody uses betamax today though VHS sucks.

I thought most problems that GNU has with the Hurd is the fact that IPC is harder when working with such a heavy modularized kernel.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 04:51 AM
Windows NT was originally designed as a microkernel OS, then they switched to a monolithic model (with a few microkernel-inspired vestiges such as the user-mode Win32 API "subsytem") primarily for performance reasons, I think. NT 4 also brought GDI and the GUI subsystem into the kernel to eliminate lots more mode transitions. Practice triumphs over theory. Granted, today's hardware is much faster but so are the OS's and applications... nobody will settle for playing "Doom 1" anymore.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: WarPengi on May 21, 2004 08:58 AM
"The fact that nobody uses it is not evidence that is not good"

absolutely, I agree with you there.

What I was describing was a very real limitation on hte micro-kernel architecture. Maybe someone will figure out a solution but in the absence of a solution the micro-kernel architecture is hopelessly inefficient for computers that are expected to run a variety of applications and processes.

There are problems with a macro-kernel too, of course. I don't know specifically what you are referring to but the architecture works so it is the best solution for now.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 06:44 PM
"I expect there is a place for the micro-kernel architecture but the evidence is that there are no micro-kernel operating systems in common usage today."

Not true. MacOS X runs on a microkernel.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: WarPengi on May 21, 2004 10:29 PM
I thought it uses BSD which is not a micro-kernel system.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 11:17 PM
OSX is a BDS type OS but it runs on top of a micro-kernel.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 08:26 AM
Specifically, it's the BSD Operating System running on top of a Mach microkernel.

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Re:microkernel debate redux

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 24, 2004 10:20 AM
each app you install would, essentially have to come with drivers


If it is so modularized, then why would each app need to provide all the modules needed to access the various I/O subsystems it would need? That sounds more like a monolithic app with nothing but a loader for an operating system.

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Thank You

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 20, 2004 11:39 PM
This was a very educational article. I learned a great deal in a short amount of time. By far one of the best articles I have found here to date!

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Re:Thank You

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 12:07 AM
I agree. This one deserves to be stored permanently in the archives.

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Those Damned SCO Spies

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 12:05 AM
Why, at every turn, was there the question of the SCO spy? AST is jumping at shadows, or trying to suggest SCO needs to spy on him in order to get some courtroom dirt. Bah. Let the case be decided, and quit your old-bitty remarks. The case is about IBM, primarily, and not everything is about linux.

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Re:Those Damned SCO Spies

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 12:49 AM
Wake up and smell the coffee, it's burning. He suspected a SCO spy because a) the guy was obviously not on the up-and-up, as events subsequently affirmed, and b) at that time, SCO was the major purchaser and purveyor of incompetently cooked-up aspersions on Linux. Remember how the first version of their court case claimed that IBM must have given illegal assistance to Linux, because otherwise Linux could never have gotten as good as it did? You're either a troll or a moron, and either way, you're a moron.

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Re:Those Damned SCO Spies

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 23, 2004 08:05 AM
Oh, sure. Mr Brown spew of his crackpot nonsense out of his own initiative. Sure.

What are you taling about "the case is about IBM". How is this remark relevant? How does this invalidate the suspicion that SCO financed Brown's study? (You do not seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer..).

Read a little bit about what the busness of ADTi is...

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This whole thing is sensationlism at its best

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 12:07 AM
Hey, I admit it, when I saw the original article I clicked on it to read it. After reading it I figured out that it was mostly false and a poor article, but flashy headlines get reader's attention. I would think that any credible news source would then post this article right under the original article saying look here is someone that was there. It's kinda like two stories about WWII: one from a young college student, or one from a veteran of WWII.

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He helps but there is another way

Posted by: David Turnbulll on May 21, 2004 12:17 AM
www.skyos.org

a project by one person to build a complete OS includng File System & Drivers.

If ONE person can build a complete Operating System then his logic is so flawed as to be irresponsible.

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Investigate ADT organization

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 12:33 AM
I think it is time for an in depth analysis of rightwing think tanks like ADTF. It seem like they are simply Goebels like propaganda guns for hire (Geobels is quoted as saying that the big lie repeated sufficiently becomes accepted as the truth). It would be very interesting to match there funding sources with their tendentious (read bs) arguments. I bet there is a good correlation between the subjects of their disinformation and their funding sources self interests... What's the bet here that M$ is a major funder...

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Re:Investigate ADT organization

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 08:53 PM
And politics come into this exactly how? I guess as a right-winger myself, I *must* agree with the ADTI's point of view on the subject of who wrote Linux. Sigh. Too bad, I'm not going to change my mind and believe their drivel for your benefit.

Your closing point indicates that you believe money (rather than politics) is a big factor in the production of this so-called report, so why choose to insult those of us with certain political beliefs by implying that this report is an extension of those beliefs?

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Re:Investigate ADT organization

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 03:57 PM
What is that stuff you're smoking?

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An article about Ken Brown (AdTi)

Posted by: jlguallar on May 21, 2004 12:50 AM
<A HREF="http://www.newsforge.com/business/02/10/25/056218.shtml?tid=19" TITLE="newsforge.com">Here, at newsforge</a newsforge.com>.

Regards.

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Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!

Posted by: Charles Tryon on May 21, 2004 03:54 AM
Sheesh! I'm sure glad I'm not in Ken Brown's seat now. It'll be interesting to see if his funding will eventually trace it's way back to SCO, and ultimately, MS.


Whoever paid for this study though, it sounds like they're not getting their money's worth.

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request for comments (of sorts)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 04:51 AM
its the microkernel issue. There seems to be a lot of very smart people which say that a microkernel is far superior to a monolithic kernel like the Linux one. Ok. I can think of two: 1) Hurd and 2) MINIX (it does exist, right?!).
But neither Hurd not MINIX have gotten very far (last time I checked - Hurd does not even support sound, nevermind USB).
So my question is: (keep in mind that I am kernel newbie!) what is so damn hard about making microkerels work andm if they are so hard to implement, why are they considered 'superior'?!

If you could point me to some litterature of give me a not too techie answer I would really appreciate it!

Thanks!

PS: is it true that either Mac or Mac OSX are based on microkernels? (I read that somewhere) What about *BSD? Or proprietaries unices?!

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Re:request for comments (of sorts)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 06:22 AM
Mac OSX uses the Mach microkernel at its core, but the BSD subsystem also sits in kernel space to take care of things like I/O. So it is not a pure microkernel operating system. Windows is actually similar - the NT operating system has a microkernel at the centre, but then just about everything else is also thrown into kernel space with it.

So I guess they have an elegant design at first, then hack it to make it actually perform good.

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QNX is example of working microkernel architecture

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 08:30 AM
QNX is a microkernel system that is fast, offers hard realtime, and demonstrates the fundamental ideas behind microkernel architecture could be made to work. Alas, the author never choose to share his knowledge with others, and QNX remains a specialized outsider marketed by a small company as a result.

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Re:request for comments (of sorts)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 11:25 PM
The Amiga had a microkernel also and was a very fast OS.

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follow up question to the three posts above

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 01:28 AM
thanks for the pointers. but then, what when wrong with Hurd?! I mean, there are some pretty smart people working over it, why does this seem not to be getting anywhere?

RMS once said something about debugging difficulties. what does he mean?!?!?

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thank you

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 05:07 AM
Sir,
Your wrote a concise and most interesting article. Thany you for this. It was a real pleasure reading it.

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A different angle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 05:58 AM
What gets me about stories like this, is the way incompetent people manage to grab positions of wealth and power.

Never mind the fact that Ken Brown's article is biased. It's supposed to be biased. Microsoft is paying the Alexis de Toqueville Institute for a propaganda article. Nothing new here, get used to it.

The point I'm making is that there are thousands of writers out there who could write anti-Linux propaganda ten times better than Brown can. They've been to journalism school. They know to read some background before flying across the Atlantic to interview somebody. Brown doesn't know to do that, and he's not smart enough to figure it out for himself. But he's got the prominent, well-paid job while a lot of competent writers are struggling on the bottom rung of the journalism ladder.

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Re:A different angle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 06:11 AM
How about you and I put together a virtual think tank to attract funding from Microsoft and SCO. We'll write up whatever they want - heck, we'll put our cover on whatever their marketing guys come up with. How about the "Gauss-Fourier Research Institute"?

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Re:A different angle

Posted by: ccchips on May 22, 2004 01:09 AM
Just goes to show you...it's not what you know, it's whose....

Never mind...

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Re:A different angle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 02:05 AM
That's it in a nutshell<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

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Re:A different angle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 05:41 AM
yeah you are right!!!!

I have just done a school project with a guy who didn't know how to opean a jpeg file from java; and this guy already got a job as programmer & me who done his part of the project too is sitting over summer reading articles and hacking opengl programs for phun<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(

but I'm a bit different looking then expected for the part of the world I live in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... has anyone said that life sux?

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Re:A different angle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 05:49 AM
oh - I forgott to say: those talented who got education & intelligence would probably never got to such low level to write so stupid things that in poor attempt to misscredit something rather misscredit author then the subject

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Re:A different angle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 05:53 AM
> The point I'm making is that there are thousands of writers out there who could write anti-Linux propaganda ten times better than Brown can.

Yes, except . . . they're too honest.

One good thing about the world is the fact that stupidity and dishonesty usually go together.

It's much less common to find someone, like Bill Gates, who is both extremely intelligent, and dishonest.

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Re:A different angle

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 22, 2004 06:08 AM
> It's much less common to find someone, like Bill Gates, who is both extremely intelligent, and dishonest.

I take exception to that.

I don't think Gates is all that intelligent.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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Nobody told me there'd be days like these.........

Posted by: Don de Los Alamos on May 21, 2004 08:38 AM

Thank you Andrew. And whenever your in or around Holmdel, New Jersey;
please feel free to stop by the beach house. Although Sandy Hook is
"Pay Per View" nower' days. ~|-)


Daemons @ the Jersey Shore

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kerfuffle?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 21, 2004 10:05 AM
Isn't that what some Belgian guy once threw in Bill Gates' face?

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Re:kerfuffle?

Posted by: canckaer on May 21, 2004 06:58 PM
And Billie-boy is always welcome in our little country... plenty more pies!

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Win and kernel size

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 23, 2004 02:02 PM
I have your book with the source code in it, it is right next to the book with a big blue C on it. Next to that is a dragon book.... and so on. Bookstore fodder now, if they will take them.


I have to disagree with you and your comment on kernel size and security. Windows sucks with security because they are shoehorning a program loader (i.e. no user security) into a multi user - multi tasking world. They have so many API's that literally half of them are never used by anyone (well anyone but some hackers, holes do exist there even today) - the Wine guys said that recently. Windows is therefore inherently insecure and when they got C-2 for the NT OS, those guys must have been out drinking that day. They obviously didn't do their job on that one.


Your expertise is in the Unix world. From your comment I don't think you are that familiar with the Windows world. If you were I think you may change your opinion. Don't get me wrong, small is good. Large can be good too.


Thanks a lot for publishing the Minix book. It helped me understand how to not do things when I wrote an OS for the PDP-11 in college. 1 guess what it was like... Yes, it was a Unix like OS. No I have never seen Unix code. Later I moved it to I386 (Nice architecture to a stupid, brain damaged architecture). A few driver changes and I was up! It broke again when the 486's came out... didn't bother to update it.

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Why Linus made Linux..

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on May 24, 2004 12:22 PM
Actually from what I read, didn't Linus make Linux while learning how the 386 worked? Basically it was a chip learning project, not a software project. This is a reason Linus went to work for a chip manufacturer after college instead of a software one.

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