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Replacing FrameMaker with OOo Writer

By Bruce Byfield on October 05, 2004 (8:00:00 AM)

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Replace Adobe FrameMaker with OpenOffice.org Writer? Most people's first reaction is amused disbelief. "FrameMaker is a hugely capable publishing product," my editor admonished me. "OOo is a marginally competent word processor." However, a functional comparison of several important desktop publishing features in both products shows that the products are more comparable than you might think.

FrameMaker has a reputation far out of keeping with its reality. While FrameMaker remains a stable and flexible product, its heyday is long past, and its features have not kept pace with modern expectations.

Moreover, its reputation is generally misplaced. Contrary to common assumptions, FrameMaker is not a desktop publishing program. Instead, it is a niche product for long documents, such as books, technical manuals, and dissertations. While brochures and posters can be done in FrameMaker (I've done both), it is not a designer's first choice of tools for these jobs. Similarly, while OpenOffice.org's Writer is often described as a Microsoft Word clone because of obvious borrowings in its interface, it would be more accurate to describe it as a cross between Microsoft Word and Microsoft Publisher. In other words, both FrameMaker and OpenOffice.org are publishing programs with limited capabilities compared to Adobe InDesign or QuarkXPress. From this perspective, a comparison is not as unlikely as you might think.

Many FrameMaker users have considered FrameMaker an orphaned product since Adobe purchased it a decade ago. FrameMaker has never been integrated with the Adobe product line. FrameMaker files, for example, cannot be shared with PhotoShop or Illustrator, while PhotoShop and Illustrator exchange files almost seamlessly. Rumors fly regularly about the doom of FrameMaker, and they finally seem to be coming true. A beta port to Linux a few years ago was abandoned, and development on the Mac has ceased altogether. Adobe's current plans are to merge FrameMaker's features with those of InDesign, a move that many fear will weaken both products.

I considered all the reasons commonly cited in the North American tech-writer community for using FrameMaker rather than Microsoft Word, as well as the features I had come to rely on during 10 years of writing and designing in FrameMaker:

  • Styles
  • Indexes and tables of contents
  • Cross-references
  • Conditional Text
  • Sideheads
  • Long documents

In each category, I considered both functionality and ease of use, then made a verdict about which software was preferable. To say the least, the results were unexpected.

Styles

OpenOffice.org and FrameMaker are both style-oriented programs -- that is, both strongly encourage users to tag text and objects with pre-defined lists of format options, rather than formatting them manually. Both assume that users will employ styles, and some features are difficult if not impossible to use without styles. The two programs' implementations of styles are extremely similar. Both, for example, use floating windows for applying styles, although FrameMaker has separate windows for paragraph and character styles, where Writer uses only the Stylist with its changeable views. Of the two implementations, Writer's Stylist is easier to use. Not only can you use it to add styles, but its different views let you locate particular styles or types of styles more quickly. Both also have a mechanism for transferring files between files: in FrameMaker, it's File > Import > Formats, and in Writer it's Format > Styles > Load.

At first, the types of styles offered seems to give Writer an enormous advantage. The Stylist lists character, paragraph, frame, page, and numbering styles, while FrameMaker's style lists are confined to character and paragraph styles. However, the first impression is deceiving. The convenience of Writer's page styles is matched by FrameMaker's master pages, or pre-defined page designs -- a concept that OpenOffice.org also uses, but only in the Draw and Impress applications. Like Writer's page styles, FrameMaker's master pages are a set of pre-defined formats that determine the positions of margins and headers and footers. Similarly, although FrameMaker does not offer lists as a separate type of style, paragraph styles can create different types of lists using a series of building blocks that, although hard to master, provide considerable customization. In fact, FrameMaker's use of styles to mark the resetting of numbered paragraph styles is much more convenient than Writer's Numbering tool bar controls. On the other hand, rearranging list items is much easier in Writer. Similarly, although FrameMaker fails to live up to its name by providing frame styles, the fact that users can make frames part of master page designs goes a long way towards canceling the advantages of Writer's frame styles.

In both programs, tables are also treated more or less as styles. In FrameMaker, table styles are available from the Table menu, and paragraph styles have a tab for how the style should behave in a table. Writer, by contrast, allows you to store Autoformats from the Format menu, which can be applied in much the same way as styles, although they are less convenient to update.

A point by point comparison of style settings is almost impossible, partly because the two programs are organized differently, and partly because there are so many settings. Both Writer and FrameMaker offer enough settings that, while neither is a top-end DTP application, neither is a word processor like Microsoft Word, either. You could single out individual features as better in one program, such as FrameMaker's small capitals and kerning or Writer's background settings or footnotes, but in nearly every case, either workarounds exist in the weaker program, or advantages in one area are nullified by drawbacks in other areas.

Verdict: This category is a photo-finish. Writer wins for two reasons. First, its tools are more centralized and easier to use. Second, Writer's styles are hierarchical, so that child styles inherit the features of parents. This feature saves designers' time, and is one that FrameMaker users have wanted for years.

Indexes and tables of contents

In FrameMaker, users must enter index markers manually through a small window. You can add multiple entries and different levels of entries, depending on whether text is separated by a semi-colon or a colon, but this method is so cumbersome that many experienced FrameMaker uses buy the third-party IXgen plug-in instead.

FrameMaker tables of contents (TOCs) are much easier to generate, since they are based on styles -- by default, on Header styles. Both Indexes and TOCs are stored in separate files. In both, the structure of entries is determined by building blocks that can be manipulated from the reference pages, while the format of entries is determined by the styles that are automatically used by them. Both structure and formatting of entries can be customized, although new users may be baffled by the structural building blocks.

By contrast, adding index markers in Writer is much easier. Multiple and tiered entries are usually entered using separate fields, and the window has an option for marking all similar text automatically, as well as for limiting the automatic markers to those that match the case of the original and are whole words. Alternatively, you can use a concordance file, which is a list of words that you want in the index that can be applied against a document to create an index that includes every occurence of each word on it. While not as handy as IXgen, these tools are significantly easier than FrameMaker's native ones.

Tables of contents are handled much as the same as in FrameMaker, although you can also use markers. Insert > Indexes and Tables > Insert Index/Table is used to structure indexes and TOCs, and, like FrameMaker, Writer uses separate styles to format entries. The options for structuring an index or TOC are far more extensive than in FrameMaker, and include protection from manual changes, the number of columns used, and the background. Interestingly, Writer includes a visual version of FrameMaker's building blocks for structuring entries that is far easier to use.

As with Microsoft Word, indexes and TOCs in Writer are fields that are added to documents. If they are used in master documents, they are part of the master document, rather than a separate file. This arrangement makes it much easier for Writer to provide a separate index or TOC for part of a document than FrameMaker, in which these features are designed to be used only with an entire book.

Verdict: Writer. Although FrameMaker's indexes and tables of contents can be tweaked by experts to do all that Writer's can, Writer's tools are easier to use and quicker to understand. Once users get over the conceptual difficulty that Writer treats indexes and TOCs -- as well as bibliographies -- as variations of the same tool, they find Writer's organization and centralization are a step beyond FrameMaker's equivalents in usability.

Cross-references

Cross-references are one of FrameMaker's greatest strengths. Cross-references in FrameMaker are created out of building blocks and manually added text, and different styles of cross-references can be saved and stored for later use. At first glance, Writer lacks this convenience. As in FrameMaker, items can be referenced in full, or by page number or chapters, but the cross-reference window -- really, just one tab of the Fields window -- offers no way to store a format, let alone the text that connects these building blocks. Users can get something of FrameMaker's functionality by selecting Insert > Fields > Other > Variable, and creating User Fields with phrases such as "For more information, see," but using this kludge requires jumping back and forth between tabs in the Field window several times to make one cross-reference.

Verdict: FrameMaker, for greater convenience

Conditional text

Conditional text is paragraphs that can be prevented from displaying or printing. It is usually used for maintaining multiple versions of a document in the same file. For example, a company with different versions of its software for different customers might use conditional text when producing a manual for one customer to hide paragraphs specific to another customer.

In FrameMaker, you set up conditional text by applying a tag. Although the feature has a poor interface design and can be difficult to learn, once you understand it, hiding or revealing a paragraph is simply a matter of checking or unchecking a box.

In Writer, several different types of conditional text are available. Three are found in Insert > Fields > Other > Functions. Using a field that is actually called Conditional Text, you can insert two alternate texts in Writer. Alternatively, you can use Hidden Text and Hidden Paragraph fields on anything from a single word to multiple paragraphs. A fourth type of conditional case allows you to define areas of a document as sections, which can be hidden by selecting a check box and setting a condition, then password-protected. Hidden sections are especially useful in master documents, where each sub-document is treated as a section. .

In all four types, conditions can vary from a simple off/on to a complete equation -- in fact, you can insert a condition elsewhere in white text against a white background if you want to protect the conditional text against tampering. However, few users are likely to go to such trouble. What is more to the point is that, unlike FrameMaker conditional text, each of these types of conditional text must be turned on or off separately. The fact that the field-based conditional text has arrow buttons to navigate to the next or previous field of the same type does not do much to help, and all these choices are extremely poorly documented in Writer.

Verdict: Both FrameMaker's and Writer's conditional text tools could use improvement. However, because they are simpler, FrameMaker's are more practical. In Writer, remembering to turn conditional text on or off quickly becomes a nightmare, especially if more than one type is used. Using only one type of conditional text helps, but not enough.

Sideheads

In page design, sideheads are an area, usually on the left margin, reserved for headings. The body of the document is printed on the remaining width of the page. Sideheads are especially popular in technical manuals, because they shorten the line-length of the body text, making it easier to read, and make headings easier to scan.

In FrameMaker, sideheads are applied to a single text flow. On the screen, a dotted line divides and the body of the document, and all paragraphs not marked to be included in the sidehead automatically start to the right of the divider. This is a marked improvement over word processors like Microsoft Word. The average word processor can only simulate sideheads, usually by using a table with invisible borders, or callouts. I know of at least two companies who used FrameMaker largely because of its ability to produce true sideheads.

Writer falls between FrameMaker and word processors in the production of sideheads. If body text styles are set with an indent, and the Marginalia frame style is used for Headings, then you can easily produce sideheads, but this tactic does require more setting up than FrameMaker's sideheads.

Verdict: FrameMaker

Long documents

Both FrameMaker and Writer have a concept of a file that is a container for other files. These types of file is specifically meant for managing long documents. In both programs, these container documents make setting up chapters easier, and they allow you to open the component files and work from them instead of a single big file, making for quicker, more stable editing.

In FrameMaker, this type of file is known as a book file. FrameMaker book files are famously stable; back in the days when 32 megabytes was a lot of RAM for a workstation, I once edited a book file comprised of more than 800 files, each several megabytes in size, repeatedly for several months without encountering any problems. Updating was slow, but the book file never crashed.

In Writer, the equivalent of FrameMaker's book files is a master document. Writer's term is borrowed from Microsoft Word. Microsoft Word's master document is notoriously prone to crashes that corrupt the component files, and some users have wondered if the similarity went beyond names to lack of usability in Writer. They don't. Writer master documents sometimes crashed in early versions of the software, but that was a couple of years ago, and, even then, the sub-documents were not affected. In the 1.1.x releases, OpenOffice.org has matched FrameMaker's book files for reliability.

The match is just as close in features. Both products allow searching through all the sub-documents at once, rearranging sub-documents, and the addition of new sub-documents. The main difference is that, while indexes and TOCs are separate files added to a FrameMaker book file, in a Writer master document, they are fields in the master document itself. This difference has no real effect on functionality of either program.

Verdict: Tie

Drawing tools

Both FrameMaker and OOo Writer have a set of basic drawing tools suitable for drawing simple diagrams, including callouts. In both, the drawing tools are available from floating windows. The tools are roughly comparable, although Writer includes animated and graphical text, and has easy access to the fuller features of Draw.

Verdict: Tie

Unique features

I could find no features that FrameMaker had that Writer entirely lacked. By contrast, Writer has several that FrameMaker does not, including Autotext and AutoCorrect/Autoformat, and a chart mode. However, probably the most important feature is the ability to write and record macros. True, the Unix versions of FrameMaker have these abilities, but most FrameMaker users are on Windows, where scripting is only available as a third-party add-on. FrameMaker users have wanted scripting for years, and seem no closer to getting it than they were a decade ago.

Verdict: OpenOffice.org. This is where FrameMaker's age and lack of recent development costs

Conclusion

I began comparing FrameMaker and Writer when a regular on the OpenOffice.org User's list asked what it would take to give Writer the power of FrameMaker. When I started, I mentally pictured a scale with Microsoft Word on one end and FrameMaker on another, with Writer in the middle, but closer to Microsoft Word.

As I proceeded, I found Writer was a much stronger contender than I had expected. At the end of the comparison, I had to conclude that the two products compare quite closely, depending on what features are more important to a given user. FrameMaker's superiority for sideheads, for instance, may sway some users, or Writer's in indexes and tables of contents. Nor are the advantages listed here equally decisive; Writer's victory in styles, for example, is narrower than FrameMaker's in cross-references and sideheads.

Yet challenging the exact decisions misses the point. What matters is not how the comparisons are weighted, but that they can be reasonably made at all. Users of Writer may wish for some features of FrameMaker. They may need to adjust to a different logic and layout. However, so long as they take the time to learn Writer, they can be in little doubt that they are using software that competes with FrameMaker on its own terms, and wins as often it loses. Even ignoring the cost and philosophical differences, OpenOffice.org is clearly an acceptable alternative to FrameMaker.

Bruce Byfield is a computer journalist who writes regularly for Linux.com.

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Comments

on Replacing FrameMaker with OOo Writer

Note: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.

Use OOo 2.0!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 02:49 AM
Version 2.0 is a much better implementation than 1.1. It looks like a real competitor to Office now...

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Re:Use OOo 2.0!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 11:33 AM
Huh!, The newest version I can see is 1.1.3.

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Re:Use OOo 2.0!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 03:51 PM
2 is beta and you should not use it for now

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Re:Use OOo 2.0!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 11:30 PM
OOo 2.0 is only a beta right now. When finished,it is supposed to have new features and improved performance. However, most of the basic tools are the same as in the current 1.1.3 version.

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I had no such luck

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 02:52 AM
With OpenOffice writer. I recently had to write a small document -- introduction, two chapters, each chapter several sub-headings. Most of the text was in the form of bullet-points.

I had one crash: when I tried to insert a draw object into the text. Inserting an image from a file did work. But when I scaled the image, all images in the document, including the company logo in the header got scaled down, too.

I had a hard time getting the headers to number consistently; when I inserted a new header in the between 1.2 and 1.3, I got a 1.4, and the old 1.3 remained 1.3. Similarly, after saving and loading the document the next day, new bullet items got a different style from the other items.

This, together with some other annoyances and a bit of experience laying out a larger document (600 pages, with lots of styles) makes me think that OpenOffice is quite stable (just one crash), but that its style tools leave something to be desired. The 600 pages never got corrupted, but I had a lot of grief with getting the styles to update.

I think that there's still room for the development of really stable, really capable free word processor.

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Re:I had no such luck

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 04:34 AM
Well, I'll tell you of the opposit, I had a 200 page dissertation to re do layout wise, the original being a botched job in MS Office 2000, OOo excelled at the task, all imports went seamlessly and I got the job done in record time, it seems that things go both ways....

hmmm...

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Re:I had no such luck

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 09:19 AM
If you read carefully, you will note
that the comparison is between
FrameMaker and OOo. It's not between
Word and OOo. For what FrameMaker does
well, Word is immeasurably broken. A
person would be better off typing raw
LaTeX in notepad.exe, even if he has
to learn LaTeX first. I do not find
it suprising at all that OOo surpases
Word for long, complex, and structured
documents. It could hardly do much
worse. I wonder how LyX would do as a
FrameMaker replacement? I've meant to
give it a whirl, but have never got
around to trying it.

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Re:I had no such luck

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 09:37 PM
And worse, I discovered today that I cannot read my old<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.sdw documents with OpenOffice anymore. Not with 1.X and not with 2.X.

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All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 03:29 AM
Frankly, OOo doesn't do what I need... and FrameMaker is WAY too expensive (and burdensome). I get exactly what I need using a tool much older than OOo... it's called LaTeX. Makes the book thing work extremely well (as good as FrameMaker, IMHO); you just have to sacrifice the GUI. I would note that a LOT of books and journals (especially in the technical world) are created using LaTeX

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 04:00 AM
LaTeX would be great if it weren't so unintuitive at times and make internationalization easier. Its age shows. Many of LaTeX's symbols are redundant and its lack of support for unicode is very uncomfortable. What I'd like to see is a modern version of LaTeX, not necessarily derived from it.

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 07:24 AM
Take a look at Lout. It uses a markup language to generate a postscript file, as does LaTeX. However, it is a much newer program and, though stable, is still in development so features can be added. It's home page is http://lout.sourceforge.net. I have used it to write my PhD thesis and several technical manuscripts, and I have been happy with it.

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 06:50 AM
Thanks, I'll look into that<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 04:21 AM
What do you need to do that OOo doesn't do?

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: kirkjobsluder on October 06, 2004 07:01 AM
Handling of complex bibliography formats for one. (To be fair however, some bibliography formats are a PITA.)

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 11:25 PM
Bibliographic formats?

Have a look at the bibliography tools in Insert > Indexes and Tables. You can create any bibliographic format you want in Writer - and store it in a database.

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: kirkjobsluder on October 07, 2004 01:40 AM
I find it really interesting how whenever someone mentions a key issue with OOo that someone asks, "have you looked at...". The answer is, of course I've looked at it, and spent a large chunk of my time contributing a needs analysis for the project.

The biblographic feature of OOo is flawed in many ways:
* Bad handling of author names in ways that prevent automatic handling of bibliographic styles. The current database structure does not recognize familiar and formal names or multiple authors. This is critical for bibliography styles for the social sciences and humantites where you might need to produce (Doe, et al,; 2004), or styles where the order of familiar/formal names might be changed in the same citation. (Doe, John and Jane Wilson).

* Limited field width.

* The facility for creating bibliographic styles is awkward, and underdocumented.

* At least with my last attempt at getting the database to do something that might possibly be close to APA, I found that while bibliograhpy formats stuck with the document, you can't save the bibliograhpy format in a template for later use.

You can find a full list of issues at: <A HREF="http://bibliographic.openoffice.org/" title="openoffice.org">the bibliographic project incubator</a openoffice.org>.

Perhaps even more frustrating, Endnote abandoned RTF document scans for version 7 (although they have replaced it in version 8). So for a while there was a distinct "can't get there from here" problem with the bibliographic features. Not only were the existing tools incapable of rendering some of the more complex styles, but you couldn't use the leading tool that could. With a solution not in sight until long after Version 2.0, I'm looking back at BibTeX for future writing projects.

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 07:30 AM
Well have you ever tried LyX <A HREF="http://www.lyx.org/" title="lyx.org">http://www.lyx.org/</a lyx.org>. You get the a really nice GUI and the superbly looking documents as produced by LaTeX. Neither Word or OOo has what it takes to replace FrameMaker on those heavy documents, on the other hand LyX does.

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 11:27 PM
"Neither Word or OOo has what it takes to replace FrameMaker on those heavy documents, on the other hand LyX does. "

How do you define "what it takes"? What features do you mean?

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 01:33 AM
Where to start. Let me see, if you take my statement of "not having what it takes" I also say "on those heavy documents" and thats the core of it. The particular feature you are calling for are the handling of big complex documents, witch neither Word or OOo are designed for and do handle very well. If you don't believe try getting a 200 pages document through a review process with frequent QA and editorial changes and ready it for publishing using FrameMaker, then do the same with word or OOo.

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Re:All depends on your market (required solution)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 02:16 AM
I've done it in all three. I would avoid doing it in MS Word, if I possibly could. I would do it in both FrameMaker and OOo without hesitation.

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Framemaker is still better for complex docs

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 06, 2004 06:11 AM
I've drifted between word and framemaker for the past few years. When it was time to decide on a tool for creating my Ph. D. thesis in, I was initially reluctant to open up framemaker again (seriously obsolete by then). Word was not an option given its tendency to corrupt much smaller documents than my thesis. So I looked at open office. It has a lot going for it (xml format, plenty of nice features). However, its cross references functionality is non existent. There's a feature called cross reference but its really a bookmark feature. A very limited form of bookmarks. You can't even refer numbers of numbered paragraphs unless they are part of the outline (and even then it is very limited). And you have to manually bookmark anything you want to refer to. Framemaker (and word by the way) allow you to refer pretty much anything numbered in pretty much any way you want. That's kind of a crucial feature for large documents (legal documents, manuals, ph. d. thesises, etc.). I've got numbered tables, figures, sections, references, etc. that I want to refer to and they are not all part of the outline. I've pointed this out years ago in issuezilla and these issues are still not understood very well in the openoffice team (witness the endless, pointless discussions and lack of development activity). It's not being fixed for 2.0 as far as I know and the reason is that they don't understand or care about powerusers. It's their good right of course but I find it a bit disappointing.

Eventually I did open up framemaker and it performed as reliable as you might expect. Feature by feature, framemaker was designed from the ground up to be used by professionals to create large, structured content. Openoffice is more tailored to casual usage. Things a power user would look for are seriously underpowered in open office whereas framemaker is very unforgiving to casual usage. It shows in things like cross references and is just not good enough for someone used to what framemaker can do. Sure the framemaker ui is seriously out of date, it's bloated, quirky but it is also a reliable powertool.

If only adobe would bother to put some time in it to modernize it. For some time I had good hopes that openoffice would fill the now vacant position of tool of choice for highly structured document editing. However, I don't see any evidence of people at openoffice interested in doing so. They seem to be pretty content at creating a poor mans word.

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Macros for cross-referencing

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 03:53 AM
Searching on the Open Office forum, I found a <A HREF="http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11434&highlight=crossreference" title="oooforum.org">topic</a oooforum.org> on cross-referencing. There are some macros available that may make cross-referencing a better experience in Open Office. I haven't tried them out so I can't contest to their usefulness.

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Sideheads in Word

Posted by: singingaccordionist on October 06, 2004 09:39 PM
It's very easy to create true sideheads in Word. Simply set the left page margin to something like 2.5", then create a heading style that includes a fixed-width frame offset to the left of the margin. It works great.

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Re:Sideheads in Word

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 01:08 AM
You can do this in just about any word processor. But these are not true sideheads. Any text placed in the sideheads does not naturally wrap around so that it stays in the sidehead, as it does in Frame. You have to add a large right margin to any of the styles used in the sideheads to accomplish this.

- Bruce Byfield

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Re:Sideheads in Word

Posted by: singingaccordionist on October 07, 2004 01:14 AM
Yes, in a fixed-width frame in Word, the text does wrap around so that it stays in the sidehead. I used Word heavily for years before I discovered this capability.

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replacing framework with Ooo ok

Posted by: krieg602 on October 06, 2004 10:41 PM
but i have found scribus lately and man this thing rock .

its very easy to use and quite powerful


krieg

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Want an alternative to frame maker?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 04:22 AM
Scribus.

www.scribus.net

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Replace Frame with OOo? Numbering issues

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 07:30 AM
I've considered alternatives to Frame for a variety of reasons, but one of the showstoppers for me is numbering. Numbers in Frame work. Period. Numbers in Word and OpenOffice are quirky. In long documents books of multiple documents, nested lists, etc., numbering has to work for us or the tool is not in the game. Our developers mostly use OOo (a couple use Word) to write draft doco, which I import into Frame to create the final version. I tell them not to worry too much about appearance, etc., a) because from doc to doc it varies, and b) because by the time it gets into Frame, Frame's styles will decide final appearance.

Templates are another thing that I'm still wrestling with in OOo. This could be an indication that they're actually quite powerful and I need to spend time learning them, but again, having a template with styles as the source, which can be imported at intervals to keep all docs up to date and looking the same, is another requirement of our documentation tool.

OOo is good, but I can't see it as a replacement for Frame yet. I wish it were; x-platform, "free", good support, etc.

cheers,
David

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Re:Replace Frame with OOo? Numbering issues

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 08, 2004 03:13 AM
If your problems with numbering occur in master documents, the trouble may be that you're not starting the first numbered list in each sub-document by clicking the button to restart numbering. If you don't, then naturally the master document reads the list as a continuation of the last numbered in list in the previous sub-document.

Once you learn how numbering works in OOo, it's very solid - much more so than in MS Word. I've done a number of long documents with OOo Writer, and had no problems whatsoever.

- Bruce Byfield

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The difference is the biz model

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 09:59 AM
Bruce Byfield makes a good argument here of the functional similarities between OpenOffice.org (OOo), FrameMaker (FM), and Microsoft Word. I find these comparisons interesting because of the business implications. If we take Bruce's review at face value, then a good percentage of the users of FM and Word might be what Harvard Biz Prof Clayton Christensen calls "overshot customers." Price sensitive customers might be delighted with the results that they can achieve for their needs with OOo. As OOo gets better, as it will with OOo 2.0, OOo could start to get a closer look by price-sensitive customers of FM and Word. It's important to remember that the president of market leader Western Union called the telephone at useless "toy" in 1870, when the telephone signal could only travel one mile. That's a history lesson that Microsoft and Adobe should not ignore. Christian Einfeldt, einfeldt@earthlink.net, 415-351-1300

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Ventura Publisher

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 11:41 AM
Did all this and more - under GEM! Before there was Windows! Plus, you could create your text in ANY text editor and know exactly what you were going to get. AND be able to make wholesale changes by just opening another style sheet.

I used it a LOT from 1.0 to the first or second Corel version. I don't think the current version will let you save in the old half-dozen discrete files fashion of old and its new look makes things difficult for us old-timers; but I bet it still _well_ deserves to be in contention whenever these issues are raised.

Mercifully, I've never used Word much since the DOS 2.0 version. I hate Word! What a piece of crap! Frame is prodigiously capable and equally as arcane. I hate it too. I _used to_ hate WordPerfect, but now I thank the stars that I have it. Nothing else is close to usable. But old VP, now _there_ was a great program! Maybe current VP is too.
--
Malcolm

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Re:Ventura Publisher

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 12, 2004 06:01 PM
Thanks for the history lesson. We're really glad you shared this with us.

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What about an import filter?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 10:38 PM
What about an import filter for FM documents into OOo? It's one thing to compare features side by side, but if you are working with an existing body of work, it would be nice to be able to import the documents directly into the new platform.

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author missed the best feature!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 07, 2004 11:53 PM
While I continue to search for less expensive alternatives to FM, there is one feature of FrameMaker that always brings me back: predictability.

Having used FM for 10 years now and writen many, many manuals, I am still impressed at how predictable FM is, even when I throw fairly complex layouts at it. There are no surprises -- it just works the way it is supposed to. It ran well on a 486 and runs even better on a P4<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

I like OO better than MS Office, but from a professional perspective, neither come close to replacing FM. Once you get your template finalized, you never again need to fiddle with formatting and can get real work done.

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Re:author missed the best feature!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 08, 2004 03:18 AM
With all respect, it sounds as though FrameMaker is only predictable to you because you've used it for so long.

If you've ever heard new users complaining about how idiosyncratic FrameMaker is, then you'd realize that it's not as predictable as you imagine.

Don't get me wrong, FrameMaker is a great product. However, you've got to learn its quirks before you can use it well.

The same goes for Open Office.

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Re: writer not for complex documents...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 08, 2004 09:55 AM
I am not sure whether FM is a complete office suit, but if one is talking about FM vs. OOo, and someone says FM is better for complex documents then I'd counter by brining up the Master document element of OOo. I have used master documents for some time now, and they are more than competent when compared to things like MSFT Word etc. I haven't used FM before, so I can't say directly that one is better than the other, but neither can you folks say that FM is better than OOo. =]

Master documents allowed me to skillfully organise many functions and styles. I simply typed and every so often I just highlighted something and assigned it to whatever style I wanted. I had to select only the automatic styles and adjust them to the genre of my document, for there was such a large selection.

You get this big list of things like Header 1, 2, 3, and so on, plus text, first line indent, and margined stuff etc. Very effective for my school work.

Heck it worked for me, and it suits students my age for the work we recieve. Nevertheless it simply depends what it is you wish to do, how much you wish to spend and how much time you wish to spend. I'd say go for what you like - it's what I did.

OOo might not be as good as FM in some regards, but for since it is Open Source, and therfore costs nothing it beats FM in that perspective, by far...

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Re:author missed the best feature!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 19, 2004 07:51 AM
Although not really searching for an alternative, there are a few features which invariably bring me back to LaTeX:
  • Predictability It always works as deisgned. Can't say that about a lot of software.
  • No bugs Seems an outragous claim, but is true. You probably won't run out of fingers when counting off software in this category.

  • Styles Once the design is finished, it never needs to be touched again, and all the rest is real work. Consistency is trivial. The design can even be done by someone else, and be changed with essentially 0 effort for any number of documents.

  • Scalability Any size document is fine. If the processing is too slow for you, just get a faster CPU. A PIII-450 (5y old!) is just fine for a 300 page thesis (and more).
  • Safety Document corruption has never been heard of. Revision control system: trivial.
  • Timelessness 10 year old documents are no trouble. Tell me any other software achieving this (don't even bother looking in Redmond).


Given these points, I say bugger the GUI. There's no real alternative.

As for other software, anyone insane enough to write a thesis in word deserves all. I'd never use FM for a thesis either, unless I own a personal copy which I can use anytime to access my personal documents. This will never happen as there isn't a FM for my OS (quite apart from the price).

I hear people gripe all the time about how much time they waste on working around bugs in FM. This tells you something clearly: your tool is crap. And Adobe and Microsoft have one thing in common: the sky will come down before they lift a finger to fix any bug you tell them about.

If you want GUI, your best bet is OOo. Keep in mind that writers are useles programmers, and programmers are useless writers (talking about professional level here, and generalising). Therefore, if you are a professional writer and would like to persuade the programmers at OOo to give up their spare time to make a tool suiting your professional needs, keep on telling OOo with well-reasoned understandable-by-programmers arguments why feature X is essential to you. And while you're getting an OS-independent(!) tool for a hard-to-beat price, offer to work on the OOo documentation...

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FrameMaker lacks Unicode

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 08, 2004 12:44 PM
I've used FrameMaker professionally for years at a large company. One significant problem with it is that it doesn't understand Unicode, and therefore it officially supports only a limited range of languages, not including all the languages into which our documents are translated.

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Structured Documents

Posted by: R. Potts on December 01, 2004 10:53 PM
OOo Writer does not have the structured document features that FM has. If they could do structure creating EEOs etc... then it would be perfect, but until then FM is the only solution

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Replacing FrameMaker with OOo Writer

Posted by: gtmoore on November 27, 2007 08:04 PM
DITA (Darwin Information Typing Archetecture) is becoming more important. Framemaker 8 is supposed to support it. Does OOo?

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Replacing FrameMaker with OOo Writer

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 64.222.155.171] on January 29, 2008 11:24 PM
The biggest complaint I have with FM (well one of) was never corrected until version 7.5 and that was the the lack of UNDO levels. I was thrilled to upgrade to 8 only to have more than one undo at a time. Then I discovered that the undo history gets wiped out when you save. This is contrary to every other commercial product on the market.

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